Resolved More problems with GNUf- taken back a 10k win

Many thanks for a clear and intelligent post. More food for thought.

NP, but I should correct something I said:

... what really matters is what T&Cs were posted on the date of your winnings.

Actually that should be the date you took the bonus. Your winnings may have come some time after, during which the Terms may have changed, in which case it would be the Terms at your date of deposit that would be binding, IMO.
 
Their Terms and Conditions were last updated on 4th November 2010. Last updated 04/11/10

It is shown in Italic at the bottom of their Terms and Conditions and it would appear to be a date stamp automatically created by the CMS they use to update the content of their site. This would be similar to when you modify your post on casinomeister and a time stamp will be automatically created.

To me that is very deceiving because any player who read the T&Cs on 4 June, 2010 16:02 have no reason to believe they were ever changed. The casino have deliberately kept the oringal posting date, however, they have made subtle changes to the T&C's since.
 
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Their Terms and Conditions were last updated on 4th November 2010. Last updated 04/11/10

It is shown in Italic at the bottom of their Terms and Conditions and it would appear to be a date stamp automatically created by the CMS they use to update the content of their site. This would be similar to when you modify your post on casinomeister and a time stamp will be automatically created.

To me that is very deceiving because any player who read the T&Cs on 4 June, 2010 16:02 have no reason to believe they were ever changed. The casino have deliberately kept the oringal posting date, however, they have made subtle changes to the T&C's since.

Given that...do i have a case?
 
Given that...do i have a case?
Did you make your deposit BEFORE Nov-4th?

If so, you might have a case - but you need a copy of the T&C's as they were before Nov-4th.
I tried all the archive sites, but none had it. So your only chance would be to Pitch-a-Bitch and hope that the casino will be honest enough to give Max a copy of the relevant terms.

If your deposit was after Nov-4th - them I'm sorry, but it's just very bad luck. :(

KK
 
The casino claims the T&Cs were last updated on 4 June, 2010 16:02. If they wish to change them then surely they have to post the correct date. It is only by accident that there's evidence to show they altered them since.

Even though you deposited after the 4th of November you had no reason at all to believe the T&Cs were changed. It is ridiculous to expect a player to continuously monitor the T&C throughout their gameplay. You have to go by the posted date which was 4 June, 2010, but we know they have altered them since then.

I do feel you have a case.
 
So actually when the betway rep told me that i had been paid in error or given the benfit of the doubt in my previous withdrawals having also played All aces it wasn't quite correct. I was within the terms thats why they paid. He failed to mention the terms change very recently but you wouldn't know it because the date at the top was still June??? This is misleading and who knows deliberate?

"In past cases you may have played All Aces however your winnings were on non excluded games. If they were on All Aces it could have been in error that you were paid"

I wasn't paid in error..It was within the terms!!!


Thanks for the post...over to you Betway??
 
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Their Terms and Conditions were last updated on 4th November 2010. Last updated 04/11/10

Yes, this matches my claim that the Video Poker restriction term was added about one month ago and certainly AFTER 4th June 2010.

To me that is very deceiving because any player who read the T&Cs on 4 June, 2010 16:02 have no reason to believe they were ever changed. The casino have deliberately kept the oringal posting date, however, they have made subtle changes to the T&C's since.

This is true and therefore the OP could have some kind of case, although it will still be a weak one. The OP can claim that he played according to the June 4th terms which allowed All Aces and the current date stamp still shows that the terms are from June 4th.

Maxd said:
steffigraff77 said:
... Do they have a duty to update the date of changes? Otherwise it is a little misleading.

Generally speaking I'd say no, it's not a "duty", it's more or less a courtesy thing. One of the realities of web life is that the date someone puts on something and the actual date it appears can easily have nothing to do with one another. It's nice when they do coincide, but they often don't.

I disagree a bit with this statement. If the casino has the right to follow their T&C to the letter and confiscate winnings when they are broken, then conversely it should also be the case that the player has the right to expect that the T&C are perfectly correct and any errors or ambiguouses within them are always ruled in favour of the player. The date stamp, which shows when the T&C was last modified, is ESPECIALLY important as the player should be able to trust that the T&C haven't changed since he last checked them.
 
Gnuf/Betway are slimey little cheats imo. They have deliberately kept the date so that regualr players who chec the terms havent changed would see the date has not changed, play on, and lose. As has happened ere. Processing small cashouts knowing they could probably wait and seize a massive on from this player just shows what a bunch of dodgy little slimeballs they are. They had incorrect terms, stating they were updated in June when they were not so they must accept fault and pay the player. If they do that, I can accept it may possibly have been an oversight. If not then they are little better than theives imo and should be avoided at all cost.

Appaling behavour by this casino. I woudnt be surprised if they made this sneaky change soley to entrap this one player.

Dont blame yourself mate, youve been mugged. hopefully they will right their wrong asap an cough up
 
The casino claims the T&Cs were last updated on 4 June, 2010 16:02. If they wish to change them then surely they have to post the correct date. It is only by accident that there's evidence to show they altered them since.

Even though you deposited after the 4th of November you had no reason at all to believe the T&Cs were changed. It is ridiculous to expect a player to continuously monitor the T&C throughout their gameplay. You have to go by the posted date which was 4 June, 2010, but we know they have altered them since then.

I do feel you have a case.

What a complete COCK-UP!!!

Don't they PROOF READ these LEGAL CONTRACTS before they are put up. Look at item 13, which says quite CLEARLY that play on ALL games counts, but by the time you get to item 15, item 13 gets contradicted TWICE.

A contract this messy would be thrown out by a court, and in fact there is now a run on loan and card companies because of errors more minor than this have meant that the agreements are void, and they have had to give back all the charges and interest on the loans, and in some cases write the capital off.

I think ACCREDITED casinos should be required to ensure that their terms are properly proof read, and errors corrected, before they go live. It's bad enough trying to understand the "legalese", but when terms contradict each other to the extent that you cannot believe what you read, even when you DO understand it, the entire contract becomes unfair.

They expect PLAYERS to regularly review the terms as a whole, yet seem to think it OK for them to dive in, and alter individual points with no checking the updated terms as a whole to ensure that their updates and the original terms are consistent with each other.
 
The terms should be spot on if they expect players to follow them and they were not. I do genuinely feel i was misled. Is it too much to ask for them to get the terms totally correct. What if indeed a court was involved? What would they make of it?

Must admit it does surprise that a casino that is accredited here cant get their terms exactly correct? I chose this casino because of CM approval. You would expect a casino accredited here to be trusted OVER and ABOVE any other. I really did not expect as Vinylweatherman puts it ' A COCK UP'

Anyway, I won't say any more on the issue in case it looks like i am harassing..i'm not. ( sorry MaxD- I had calmed down after your post yesterday but now i am starting to get annoyed again!) I just want fairness. I will try to stay cool.

I think Betway should respond asap.
 
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Sorry, Steffi, but that's just how it goes. :( Sucks though, I'm sure.

I don't take bonuses for this reason.

I take bonuses, but I trust casinos as far as I can throw them. Anyone who has tried lifting a server will know this isn't far:rolleyes:

I will either play SLOTS, and ONLY slots, or if I fancy a bit of table action, or even Video Poker, I will RECHECK the terms just in case I missed something the first time, or they have slipped something in later (as GNUF have clearly done in November).

Since GNUF want to be so damn PEDANTIC, remember it's "Double Bonus" VP that is excluded, and "Double Double Bonus" VP is ABSOLUTELY FINE to play with a bonus:p:p (as CLEARLY written in their terms:D)

I am now expecting a DECEMBER update to the terms after they read this thread;) Make sure you all read them:rolleyes:

I don't even play TABLE pokers with GNUF boni, let alone VP or Blackjack, so it came as something as a suprise to see that it would have been OK for me to play 3 Card Poker with their 75% bonus. I expect they will realise this omission, and correct it.

Don't forget the 30% rule too! Max bet is 30% of inital bonus credited.
 
Don't forget the 30% rule too! Max bet is 30% of inital bonus credited.

The question is whether the max bet rule applies to initial single bet or total bet. For example: with a 100€ bonus, am I allowed to put an 29€ initial bet on a hand of Texas Holdem bonus, where the final bet size is typically 5 times ante = 145€.
 
The question is whether the max bet rule applies to initial single bet or total bet. For example: with a 100€ bonus, am I allowed to put an 29€ initial bet on a hand of Texas Holdem bonus, where the final bet size is typically 5 times ante = 145€.

Assume it is TOTAL bet, unless CLEARLY told otherwise. You will ALWAYS be betting the full "play bet" on a good hand, so it is a good assumption to make. Blackjack is a little different, in that splits are considered as two separate bets from that point on. Splitting is NOT something that is done as standard when playing Blackjack, so operators that have expressed a view will allow the initial bet on a DEALER hand of Blackjack to be the one that determines violations of this rule. They also make it clear that in multiple hand versions, your single bet is the sum of the bets on all positions played. This closes a loophole where players bet 30% (for example) of the bonus balance per position in the hope that the dealer would bust, and effectively allow the "all on Black" advantage play method in through the back door by the exploitation of this potential loophole.

The ONLY loophole in slots is the "double up" gamble game after a win, and many terms ban this as a means of doubling up a big win from a slot bonus round, or even a decent line win. I usually steer clear of this "double up" game anyway, and especially so with a bonus.

The problem is that players always have to "watch their backs" when playing at any casino, as they will not TELL you that you are walking into a trap, they will let you do it, even WATCH you do it in some cases, and then spring the violations trap when you withdraw. If you "watch your back", you will have checked out the scene before hand, and thus would know where these traps were, and would steer clear of them when playing.

The ONLY casino that has ever confiscated my win was Crystal Palace, and it was from a free chip, and my suggestion as to what Mr Curran could do with it was just as colourful as how he dealt with players who complained about getting screwed over.

Prime Casino tried to find a problem with a £500 withdrawal, but after I made it clear I knew the correct procedure, they decided to quit the fun & games, and paid up within the 14 days suggested by eCogra before a formal complaint could be lodged. I won this £500 on SLOTS, and it was from £35 or so of comps. Having READ THE TERMS, I knew from the outset that "they didn't have a leg to stand on" if they were trying to sniff out a violation. Lucky they didn't try this on the £6000+ I won off them a couple of weeks before. All they achieved was to ensure they would not get the chance to win it back.

GNUF have ensured we all now know they can't proof read:p
 
Assume it is TOTAL bet, unless CLEARLY told otherwise.

The problem is that the T&C should be written clearly enough so that I don't have to ASSUME anything, especially since I don't know at the start of the hand what the final bet size will be.

Blackjack is a little different, in that splits are considered as two separate bets from that point on. Splitting is NOT something that is done as standard when playing Blackjack, so operators that have expressed a view will allow the initial bet on a DEALER hand of Blackjack to be the one that determines violations of this rule.

I hope the operators are consistent with this interpretation. Once I had a hand in MG double exposure BJ (single hand) where I split my hand 3 times and doubled on three of them for a total bet size of 7x initial bet. My initial bet was 20% of bonus and final bet was 140% of bonus, so with your interpretation this should be okay ;)
 
I certainly believe an accredited casino here should have crystal clear terms and it is crystal clear GNUF have not! If they do a December Update they are acknowledging that they were in the wrong and they should pay me.
 
The problem is that the T&C should be written clearly enough so that I don't have to ASSUME anything, especially since I don't know at the start of the hand what the final bet size will be.



I hope the operators are consistent with this interpretation. Once I had a hand in MG double exposure BJ (single hand) where I split my hand 3 times and doubled on three of them for a total bet size of 7x initial bet. My initial bet was 20% of bonus and final bet was 140% of bonus, so with your interpretation this should be okay ;)

Don't put too much faith in "hope".

Operators are NOT consistent in ANYTHING, but SO FAR this does not seem to have been a problem, where splitting and doubling have been ruled a breach of the terms where the initial bet itself was fine.
It would be a dangerous path for operators to follow, as they would have terms that REQUIRE players to deliberately "throw" a game rather than play the better strategy because it risked breaking the rules.
 
heador112:
“…to make it impossible to play a restrictet game with a Bonus…”
I agree, this is junk; “Sorry you played a restricted game now your bonus + deposit is forfeit.” If they give a bonus the software itself should stop the player from playing restricted games.
At least then we won’t hear about cases like OPs.

nisosbar:
“I don't take bonuses for this reason.”
Same here, if I like the casino I wont accept any bonus, because I know eventually it will cause a fight.
 
Practically all casinos have a clause in their general T and C that state they may change the promotion or general T and C's from time to time and it is the players responsibility to check this.

I check T and C's every time I take a bonus and so should everyone- how often in this forum does the read the T and C advice have to be given!

No casino I am aware of notifies its player base of a change in T and C's other than through the website.

Any time you take a bonus there is a click on link to the specific T and C or a note that standard T and C apply.

Sorry to sound harsh but how hard is it to click a link. or check the website.If there is a query on clarity - send an email an check- that way you get your response in writing as backup.

It seems the OP has a big win, DIDN'T check the T and C relying on previous T and C's assumption and is now pissed off and trying to make a case based on prior rules, clarity non notify etc. I would be pissed off too but at myself for not checking the terms in the first place. Harsh lesson but ---

Sorry but unless the player deposited before the Tand C changed can't see that there is a case here.

Cheers
 
I don’t know how you can all so casually just write off this guys winnings. Whatever the case of them chasing a minor technicality on their terms and conditions, the case still stood he won playing a game there and game he had been playing for over the past year.
I agree casinos have terms and conditions to put people off abusing their bonus, but these should not be used as a excuse for when it suits the casino to take players large win.
As stated in this case they let him happily play when he was losing because it suited them.
So they have a win win situation, I am pretty shocked at the comments of some of the people on this forum to casually let him have £10,000 taken
.
I’ve had casinos make up stupid excuses then withhold payment , check my issue with Bingo Las Vegas casino ( stole over $1000), the casino stole alot of peoples money and closed down under the guise of a casino upgrade never to be seen again. Oh that was accredited by Casinomeister too, and the Casinomeister rep never helped with a resolution either.
Don’t let these charlatans walk all over you , anyway who sticks up for thieves like that sounds to me as if he is in their pocket.
Seems you would have a case that they tried to catch you out, you were clearly playing there for a long time, and were caught by a sly of hand especially with regards to that June 4th date not being accurate (in relation to what questa said earlier).
I think trading standards would see their conduct as unfair, why not speak to the license body? If they won’t help take them to court. I’m pretty sure they will side with you but i don’t think GNUF would like the publicity for it to get that far.
I see it clearly that you won, stealing player’s winnings when they win big is just robbery.
 
Usually a bonus says "bonus terms here" or such, with a link, and you usually have to agree.

I'm a big "read the fine print" gal, but I often rely on the revision date to decide if I need to re-read terms.

I think I'd PAB if I was the OP, and stop posting here about the issue.

This is a large sum of money, and there may be other avenues as well, such as ecogra or the courts.
 
In terms of escalating this issue I think the OP would be best advised to take it to eCOGRA. Their process starts here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
Many thanks for the link Max, I will look at ecogra or courts route unless i hear otherwise from Betway/Gnuf.
 
Practically all casinos have a clause in their general T and C that state they may change the promotion or general T and C's from time to time and it is the players responsibility to check this.

I check T and C's every time I take a bonus and so should everyone- how often in this forum does the read the T and C advice have to be given!

No casino I am aware of notifies its player base of a change in T and C's other than through the website.

Any time you take a bonus there is a click on link to the specific T and C or a note that standard T and C apply.

Sorry to sound harsh but how hard is it to click a link. or check the website.If there is a query on clarity - send an email an check- that way you get your response in writing as backup.

It seems the OP has a big win, DIDN'T check the T and C relying on previous T and C's assumption and is now pissed off and trying to make a case based on prior rules, clarity non notify etc. I would be pissed off too but at myself for not checking the terms in the first place. Harsh lesson but ---

Sorry but unless the player deposited before the Tand C changed can't see that there is a case here.

Cheers

You seem to have spectacularly missed the point here, the player DID check the terms, the date on them was from June so he assumed, quite correctly that nothing had changed.

Is it really a requirement of bonuses now to read 8 pages of legal documentation each time before depositing anywhere? We all know which sections to skip to in these documents, but if a random sentence is added without clarification then the player shouldn't be expected to keep track of this.

I'm shocked that people are sticking up for the casino in this case, as others have said, why allow play on All Aces at all if they are going to take this route?
 

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