Resolved More problems with GNUf- taken back a 10k win

Thats my point...Why don't they apply the terms ALL THE TIME and not effectievly enticing a player to play games which they know when you win big on they can take off you!!!

I have basically lost faith in casinos because what will they find next time? Is their something else in their terms that mean thay willfind a way of not paying. It is not worth the stress or hassle. Its all about trust and i am not sure i can trust these guys ever again.
 
Thats my point...Why don't they apply the terms ALL THE TIME and not effectievly enticing a player to play games which they know when you win big on they can take off you!!!

No offense but this sounds like bunk to me. Terms change, big whoop!

Do they owe you a personal invitation to introduce you to changes or modifications in the Terms? No, I should think not. Sure, it would be nice but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Trying to twist this around to say they apply the Terms sometimes but not other times, have done it to dupe you, etc is just balderdash. You didn't read the Terms for your bonus, it came back to bite you in the bum, yeah that sucks but it sucks because it's your fault not because the casino is doing some evil-overlord, mind-psych-out trick on you.

Sorry, but unless I'm missing something here you are SOL*.

And posting 20,000 times in single day to try and bully the casino into giving you want isn't the recommended procedure either. Tell us something we haven't heard or find something else to do: hammering away at this will only put you on the wrong side of the Forum Rules, specifically:
1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda. If the moderators (and members) feel that you are spamming the board with links or ad copy to your website, harassing members with agenda laden posts, or consistently ragging on a casino that did you wrong, etc., your account may be suspended.

* SOL = shit out of luck.
 
betway and Gnuf make their money from these kind of dirty tricks, of course they let you cashout the small wins so they can steal the inevitable big one. nobody should deposit to these unscrupulous casinos. stay away everyone! do not play at BETWAY or GNUF play at honest casinos only!!


hi , well common thats a bit harsh on both those casinos. ive played at both & NEVER had any problems concerning cashouts or rules , sorry to say it is the player that has to update & read the rules , if you take a bonus , you should read those terms before playing ! i dont play at either now , but i shall pipe in & say theyve always treated me well ( betway ) although gnuf i didnt play as much , i do feel for the OP but , you can only blame yourself for not reading up on the rules . best of luck
 
... Just very gutted as you can imagine.

Indeed I do, but being gutted and being screwed-over are not the same thing, certainly not here. Live and learn, and move on.
 
They changed some terms in June or July, honestly cant remember. That was for table pokers not sure about All Aces.

Surprised that they allowed you to cash out earlier as they and Betway looks with a microscope after reasons not to pay. BTW both are crap IMO.

Sorry to derail but love you profile pic had me lolol gonna show it to the kids ;)
 
When did they make these changes to the terms and conditions?
I have been playing here for at least a year and they let me play and withdraw playing all aces and when i win big they don't! When they update terms adn conditions and they affect players shoudl they not let players know?

To answer your question, they added the rule restricting Video Poker play something like 3 weeks ago. I know this because I was about to claim a bonus at Betway, and my friend warned me that they had just added a term forbiding video poker play. I still claimed the bonus but fortunately was aware to stay away from Video Poker.

Your previous play on All Aces has probably been fine because they didn't have the rule restricting VP play at that time.

Personally I have been paid fine a couple of 3K-5K cashouts at both Betway and Gnuf, so they seem to pay fine as long as you follow the T&C to the letter.
 
To answer your question, they added the rule restricting Video Poker play something like 3 weeks ago. I know this because I was about to claim a bonus at Betway, and my friend warned me that they had just added a term forbiding video poker play. I still claimed the bonus but fortunately was aware to stay away from Video Poker.

Your previous play on All Aces has probably been fine because they didn't have the rule restricting VP play at that time.

Personally I have been paid fine a couple of 3K-5K cashouts at both Betway and Gnuf, so they seem to pay fine as long as you follow the T&C to the letter.


Apologies i am a bit confused if you are saying 3 weeks as the link to the terms have :

Last Updated: 4 June, 2010 16:02


Have a look...Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I have taken a screenshot too so i remember to read them inside out. There are about 10 thousands reasons why i should!
 
Apologies i am a bit confused if you are saying 3 weeks as the link to the terms have :

Last Updated: 4 June, 2010 16:02


Have a look...Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I have taken a screenshot too so i remember to read them inside out. There are about 10 thousands reasons why i should!

It was roughly 3 weeks ago but it could be one month ago. I am quite certain that the Video poker term wasn't there yet in June 4th. Anyway if you have a screenshot of the old terms without the Video Poker clause, then you could have a valid case, as you could argue that there was no sign of the T&C being updated after 4th June even though it clearly was.
 
No, iam confused why you said they changed them 3 weeks ago.
I am pretty sure i had a quick look at the terms recently and when i saw June i assumed they hadn't changed? And they are still showing June so was this change brought in June time or when?
 
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No, i don't have an old one i was just confused why you said they changed them 3 weeks ago when the current terms were updated back in June and clearly i i was using terms before June.

Its naturally a bad feeling to hit big and then not get paid. But its clear in the terms n conditions. Its up to the player to check terms especially when it comes to playing with bonuses. Never presume anything. If the casino had suddenly changed the terms at the time you won then maybe you would have a case, but it dont matter if it was 3 weeks or 3 months ago they are clear and the game you played was not allowed.

You aint got a hope of getting paid just put it down to experience and move forward. Players really need to learn to read up on this kind of thing that way you do not get any nasty surprises.
 
No, i don't have an old one i was just confused why you said they changed them 3 weeks ago when the current terms were updated back in June and clearly i i was using terms before June.

When you become more experienced, you will instinctively realise that certain games are far more likely to get you "tripped up" on terms and conditions.
These are pretty generous offers, and when I have taken them at both GNUF and Betway I have stuck to the slots, and ONLY the slots. If I win big - they won't have a leg to stand on, not even if it's £50K like I did at 32Red.

Certain games are particularly risky, and often feature in terms and conditions, and should be avoided unless you have gone over the rules with the proverbial microscope.

All Aces, when played with "perfect strategy", is the game feared most by operators. ANY game in the MGS download that has had "expert mode" disabled by default should be avoided with a bonus, as the removal of this feature tells us this game is "feared" by operators where bonuses are involved.

Craps, Roulette, and Blackjack have ALWAYS caused trouble for players who didn't check the small print. More recently, video poker has been added to this list, along with table poker at some places.

Don't try looking for any logic to this, there isn't any. It is more to do with operators preferring that only slots are played (nice 5% house edge for them), BUT not wanting to deter players by putting "slots only" on the offer.

The other problem is the BIGGEST con ever, perpetrated by MGS when they launched Clearplay, with the claim that "players need never worry which games they can play ever again". As shown in this case, a total load of BOLLOCKS, since the situation regarding allowed and excluded games is FAR WORSE now than it was in the days before Clearplay, when it was simply "Craps, Roulette, and Blackjack" that were excluded, and this was the same almost everywhere.

You are completely screwed here, they got you. It WAS the immense size of the win that made them decide to exercise their "right to void winnings" this time. When they DID let it go, they really SHOULD have sent you a polite message to the effect "you actually broke the terms, but we'll let it go this time, but don't do it again".
Their failure to do this has now lead you to believe they deliberately "lead you on" so that they could wait for you to get a really BIG win before they showed their "trump card" in order to confiscate it. This is poor business practise, and serves only to sour the relationship with a customer, and all because they "treated you like a number, rather than a person".

This also shows what a load of BULLSHIT this idea is that their top players have their "own personal VIP account manager", who will "look after you".
Nothing of the sort, it is nothing more than a set of players put into a more select, but still BULK, marketing program. Some casinos DO appear to offer something closer to a true "personal account manager", and such account managers WOULD contact you before a situation like this got to the stage where they had to use the terms against you in this manner.

I can't see WHY they think these three VP variants have a particular problem, since they ALL have this same "problem" when played with a bonus.

The newest "dirty trick" now is listing SLOTS as excluded games, since SLOT players don't see the need to look beyond the WR and cashout limitations of a bonus, and would NOT expect to see a number of the slots listed as excluded games. This means that even SLOT players now have to be on their guard, checking whether their favourite slot game has been excluded from the bonuses.

I'm now off to check the latest GNUF terms..... just in case;)
 
Hi MAx

I read a lot of what you have written in the past and really respect what you say and as you have given me a ticking off i will accept it. I know you talk a lot of sense .

I must admit i am a little confused as generally when i look at the terms i check the date and scan the rest. I noticed that the update date was still June so i was probably ok. I think i did this a few weeks ago. They are still showing June at this time too. I know its my fault maybe i should have read it through but the mistake is understandable if the first line reads June 2010

But apparently i am now being told that the terms actually changed 3 weeks ago or a month ago and they didn't update the date?

So i guess i must have missed it. Do they have a duty to update the date of changes? Otherwise it is a little misleading.
 
vinyl weatherman...

Are you serious that some casinos are not allowing certain slots??
This is impossible to follow!
 
I just checked my history and I had a large win at Gnuf at Video Poker on 16th August 2010 so I can say for certain that the Video poker term wasn't there then. The term has been added after this, but like you said the time stamp shows last update being made on 4th June 2010, which is false. So you could argue that you played according to the 4th June 2010 terms (which still allowed All Aces), and the casino made an error here.
 
Thats interesting Juho...why did they allow your win after the June 4th date but not mine?

When were the terms actually changed? The more i think about it i am sure i scanned the Terms and noticed no date change which must mean no update on terms. Thats reasonable surely?
 
Thats interesting Juho...why did they allow your win after the June 4th date but not mine?

Because the term restricting All Aces wasn't there yet!

When were the terms actually changed?

Not sure but certainly sometime after 16th August. Perhaps you find the exact date from web archives.

Anyway I have a feeling that even if the time stamp is wrong at the T&C, it may not give you a strong enough case to get fully paid, but you could look for a partial settlement given that the casino made a mistake with their T&C as well.
 
Thats interesting Juho...why did they allow your win after the June 4th date but not mine?

When were the terms actually changed? The more i think about it i am sure i scanned the Terms and noticed no date change which must mean no update on terms. Thats reasonable surely?

I joined in the summer, and I am pretty sure these are the same terms, including the VP one.

Their terms ARE in a bit of a mess though, since that section starts with "all games count".

Then you get the weightings.

Lastly you get the fact that zero weighted games are actually EXCLUDED.

This is NOT a high standard, and really such errors should NOT be present in a legal contract - it is unprofessional.

It looks like they added the zero weighted games, and the exclusions, but did NOT bother to update the introductory point 13, which STILL reflects the ORIGINAL Clearplay "cut & paste" text that came with this feature, where "all games count".

Oddly enough, they ALLOW 3 Card Poker, which is now EXCLUDED in a number of MGS casinos even though it is simply "table poker". They also allow ROULETTE:what:

Further down is perhaps a reason WHY they allow Roulette and 3 card poker - the infamous "max bet no more than 30% of initial bonus" rule.

There is also a strikingly CLEAR (compared to others) set of definitions as to what constitutes "a single bet" for the purpose of the 30% rule.
For the FIRST time, I have seen a concise treatment of the "double" gamble option available after a win, and this is that the "double" is seen as a separate bet in it's own right - thus no WIN greater than 30% of the starting bonus balance may be "doubled".
Bet is also defined as a single "go" of a game, rather than "per position" on multi hand versions of games.
 
... Do they have a duty to update the date of changes? Otherwise it is a little misleading.

Generally speaking I'd say no, it's not a "duty", it's more or less a courtesy thing. One of the realities of web life is that the date someone puts on something and the actual date it appears can easily have nothing to do with one another. It's nice when they do coincide, but they often don't.

That may sound harsh but think of it this way: it really doesn't matter what date appears on the T&Cs, what really matters is what T&Cs were posted on the date of your winnings.

In other words if you can show that your game was not excluded on the date of your winnings then your winnings may well be valid, regardless if the Terms later displayed a date one month, one year or one century before your actual date of play. Retroactive Terms are always a problem and we generally don't accept them as valid.

Unfortunately the burden of proof is on you: show evidence of your claim and a PAB becomes a real possibility. But without some actual evidence it's your word against them and who's to say which is correct?
 
Many thanks for a clear and intelligent post. More food for thought.

There is something called the "wayback machine", which holds snapshots of the internet on given dates. This has been used in the past to settle arguments about when terms were changed.

Although dates cannot be relied upon, if one IS given, it should be CORRECT, otherwise players may regularly check this DATE.

Unless changes are highlighted in some way, how on earth can players check for changes of maybe a couple of words in a 10 page document written in "legalese".

Well, actually you CAN, but it involves software, a file comparison tool where you compare two files to see if they differ, and where.

Cut & paste one set of terms to Notepad, and when you come to check, paste the latest set into another Notepad document. Run the tool to check for changes.
Whilst many changes will be a result of small errors in the cut & paste, you will only see the CHANGES in the output, rather than having to scrutinise every word. If these changes look like actual changes in the terms, then read them again as a whole, then make the latest version the default to check against in the future.

You should not have to do this, but if you keep getting tripped up by "sneaky" changes, or like games that are prone to feature in such changes (in other words, any game that isn't a slot), this could be a worthwhile check.

Also remember, that in MOST cases the check for breaches happens when you WITHDRAW, rather than during play. Thus you can go on playing after a breach, and not be found out, and not even being CHECKED if you lose it all back rather than withdraw.

If in any doubt about this, and what to do, ask for advice BEFORE you submit that withdrawal;)
 
MG needs to be updatet to make it impossible to play a restrictet game with a Bonus . I have noticed that with the Partygaming Software if you have a slot bonus the system dont allow to play a table game .


If this would became a industry standard the casinos couLdnt create these unfair situation where the player can only lose .
 

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