Major Absolute Poker Issue

[pokeraddict]

Excuse me, I havent read the thread yet.
I guess you have all eliminated the possibility that it is the casino itself which is doing the cheating, hah?

Absolute could have easily have been involved. There is still that possiblity. Since AP has completely ignored the issue and all the proof and tried to hope it goes away I don't put this past them. Their sleazy track record doesn't help either. I'm inclined to believe if AP is not directly involved one or more of their employees are.

 

[Pinababy69]

Pokeraddict, is this still being discussed at 2+2? I haven't been there lately, maybe I'll go and see what's been posted.

 

[noluckever67]

This is not

what absolute think looking for me to deposit into an acct ive never used for over 3 years....lol..maybe theyre beginning to get an bit desperate

Come and join the action this weekend with our 100k guaranteed on
Saturday and 50k on Sunday! With more and bigger guaranteed tournaments,
Absolute Poker is your place to play. See you at the tables whenever,
wherever!

Sincerely,

Patricia
Team Absolute
"To Continue to be the Best and Most Trusted"
[email protected]
(US toll free)1-866-788 3005

 

[Pinababy69]

"To Continue to be the Best and Most Trusted"

Have they always signed their emails that way? Ha ha...good one Absolute.

 

[pokeraddict]

Have they always signed their emails that way? Ha ha...good one Absolute.

This has been their slogan for a while. I caught a screenshot where they use it in their software in a question as if they were not sure.

An account I believe was created by AP started this thread at 2+2 with a statement. Posters have given them a bunch of crap over it but I think it is a step in the right direction. They admit something isn't right but deny any cheating.

 

[Pinababy69]

This has been their slogan for a while. I caught a screenshot where they use it in their software in a question as if they were not sure.

An account I believe was created by AP started this thread at 2+2 with a statement. Posters have given them a bunch of crap over it but I think it is a step in the right direction. They admit something isn't right but deny any cheating.

Not sure? LOL...gee, that inspires confidence doesn't it Pokeraddict?

Is the thread you refer to recent? Your forum is SO huge, I get lost there. Do you happen to have a link handy? Thanks.

 

[pokeraddict]

Not sure? LOL...gee, that inspires confidence doesn't it Pokeraddict?

Is the thread you refer to recent? Your forum is SO huge, I get lost there. Do you happen to have a link handy? Thanks.

Sorry I meant to post the link.

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It was posted about 2 hours ago. Although I've tried to encourage further discussion most people are just telling them to do something to themselves. It's a pretty vague statement, just enough to try to buy time.

As for the screenshot, here it is. Notice the scrolling text at the bottom.

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I think it's posted earlier in the thread too.

 

[Pinababy69]

Thanks for the link Pokeraddict. And the screenie. I gotta say that between this Absolute thread, the Microgaming White Label issue, and numerous other stupid casino tricks of late...I have a strong suspicion that there are discount copies of "How To Run Your Company Like An Idiot" being mass produced and sold. I see no other explanation.

And the recipe for doing it in the proper way isn't really that difficult. Transparency in all issues, timely payouts, decent CS and maintaining player trust. What's so hard about that?

 

[Pinababy69]

I just read the entire thread PA, and I absolutely agree with you. One, has the authenticity of the post/poster been verified as yet? It certainly sounds authentic.

Two, if it is an accurate accounting of their investigation, then I think that the admission of chip-dumping by one of the accounts at least, is a HUGE step in the right direction. If no wrongdoing had taken place originally, the account in question wouldn't have felt the need to dump his chips.

Three, the fact that they have actually made a legitimate post for the first time on your forum (if it is legit), is a major improvement over the spam type behaviour that they have become known for.

This is not all good, but it's certainly a start. Kudos to you for keeping on it Pokeraddict.

 

[pokeraddict]

1. I can't say that it has been 100% verified but my own investigation of the user leads me to believe it is legit. I can't go into how since this is how we bust them for spamming all the time. Mike Haven should get this verified soon enough for all of us to be sure.

2. Agreed, chip dumping a quarter of a million dollars to noobs should be enough right there. Hopefully they will expand on this.

3. Also agreed, many don't seem to understand that on that forum though as they are so quick to tell the OP off instead of using it as a possible opportunity (however slim) to resolve this. Many of the posters telling them off are victims so I can't really blame them. This post should have been made within 7 days of the accusations not a month later.

 

[pokeraddict]

Massive new development !!!!

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Crazymarco was the player that Potripper beat HU in the $1000 tourney where Potripper called an allin with an unimproved T9o on the turn when Crazymarco had an U/I 92o. Crazymarco asked for hh's from the final table as he could not understand many of the plays he witnessed. AP seems to have sent him a spreadsheet of every hand dealt the entire tourney including all dealt hole cards in all hands regardless of whether the player saw the flop or not. AP has claimed that there are no records of everybody's hole cards claiming this is why the cheating was impossible but the CS error proves that wrong.

At this time going into the 150/300 level reports show Potripper flopped all hands except 7. In all of those hands other players had QQ-AA. This includes Potripper flopping several of the worst possible start hands when other players were not dealt monsters.

I have not seen this file which is being parsed right now. I am relying on trusted people involved in this from the start. If this pans out AP has been caught in even more lies and this could be the proof needed to convince major poker publishers to print the story in their magazines.

Hopefully these hh's will be available to all very soon to once and for all have all the proof out there that AP has either been cheating or has allowed cheaters to operate on their site. This also catches AP in yet another lie about the capabilities of their software as they have used that as an excuse as to how this could not have happened.

I hope this all comes together very soon. If it does then IMO all sites need to stop promoting AP/UB immediately and all players need to go on an immediate boycott if they are not already. This should prove once and for all how rogue and dishonest AP is.

 

[pokeraddict]

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Hand histories from the tourney are starting to get posted as the spreadsheet is getting translated. This is the last bit of evidence needed to hang AP.

 

[pokeraddict]

My last update before bed. Potripper's first 50 hands or so have been parsed. They can be seen here:

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Some sort of master hh for the tourney was sent by support to the 2nd place finisher in this tourney likely by mistake when the player requested the final table hh's as he suspected something was not right. AP has denied that any such thing existed in a previous post (unless I completely misunderstand their post). On top of that AP made this statement at 2+2 just a few days ago.

As a matter of Company policy, Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever.

The master hh being shared with players obviously contradits that statement. Regardless view the hands and see for yourself how ridiculous this is. AP obviously had access to the same hh's but yet drew the conclusion there was no cheating. I can't help but think that they are in on this now. I've tried to think they were just hacked. They possibly seized the funds of these players and kept it but at the very least helped cover up one of the biggest cheating gambling scandals in history.

In the end the entire tourney hh will be converted and we will all see every hand of this tourney all the way down to the infamous call with an unimproved ten high with no draws on the turn to win the tourney. I can't wait for AP to try and squirm their way out of this one now that their lies have them back even further into a corner.

IMO this story needs to be covered in all poker publications. Anybody that still promotes Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet after this does not have player's best interest in mind at all.

On top of all the other sleazy things AP has done to take advantage of players and affiliates now they will cheat or lie to help cover up at least a half million dollars of cheating. What is next?

I also have to question if AP will email this player a tourney master HH how many other times have players been given info on players that would give them an advantage in the future. Why is such an email so easily accesible for a support person and sent to a player in the first place? How many players know of a way to get this type of info emailed to them by support and have been exploiting this massive hole in AP's lack of security? This can't be a one time thing.

 

[I Like Pie]

goddam, not that I needed anymore proof but those hand histories are just ridiculous.

You can't really claim that the excel file is fake either cause you can just confirm the information of the hands and e-mail addresses with the other players in the tournament. This really is rock solid proof.

 

[lots0]

So I suppose asking to see the complete email headers and the original email from Absolute Poker is out of the question?

That would be real proof that I would accept.

 

[Pinababy69]

So I suppose asking to see the complete email headers and the original email from Absolute Poker is out of the question?

That would be real proof that I would accept.

That seems like a fair enough request Lots0. Did you mean emailed to you or posted, either here or on 2+2? Either way, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

 

[pokeraddict]

So I suppose asking to see the complete email headers and the original email from Absolute Poker is out of the question?

That would be real proof that I would accept.

Go to the 2+2 thread or P5's thread and ask. Those could be forged though I guess. What you really need to do is get the hand #'s and go get the original from their software. Also people involved in these hands need to speak out and say that they were dealt the cards shown in the hh's. AP has yet to reply to my email asking them for an answer as to whether the screenshot posted is that of a master hh.

I would have a hard time believing this master hh is made up. The users claim to have the ip address and email of everybody in the MTT as it was included in the file. I'm sure more proof of it being original could be found in there.

 

[lots0]

I'd like to see the complete email posted to a web page for the public to view and analyze for themselves. I'll even host it, if that is problem.

After reading most all of the threads involved... I don't see how anyone can say what has been posted is proof of any kind.

Well, I guess it is if you are willing to take those two or three people that posted those "HH" word as fact...

I don't mean to disrespect these guys that have posted this stuff, but I don't know any of them. I don't know if they can be trusted or if this is just some elaborate scam against AP.

I just want to see some hard proof of any kind where I don't have to completely trust someone I never met.

 

[pokeraddict]

Lots, I suggest emailing AP and asking for a public response to these new hh's posted. If they either ignore you or admit it there is your proof. AP is in so far over their head there is no telling what their next move is. This would be one hell on an elaborate scam though, espcially with the emails and ip's allegedly included in the 65,000+ column spreadsheet. There is a screenshot posted, maybe AP could confirm if that is how their masters look.

 

[lots0]

pokeraddict: Why don't you ask your friends to post the entire email? In the name of fairness and full disclosure...

Would that not be the best way to PROVE their statements?

I find a lot of things "hard to believe", someone making up stuff like this about a poker room does not fall into that category.

AP ignoring me is not proof of anything...

 

[pokeraddict]

I posted in that thread asking for headers and we'll see what happens. I wonder if/when they get posted if it will be "The headers are forged". The proof lies in whether the hh's are correct and only people involved in the hands and AP can vouch for that.

I know this is Sunday and this broke on a Saturday night but this is so damaging I think any other poker room would have been all over this to dispute it or at least be involved. What is left of their rep depends on it. Where are they?

 

[Snowman]

Time for action

Well, developments have certainly moved rapidly over the past week, and not in a direction that shows AP in a good light. In my previous post I noted it was unlikely that AP were directly involved but I must say I'm now begining to change my mind. One thing that can now be stated unequivocally is that AP have lied; moreover they have lied in a manner that povides a platform for litigation. Clearly at least one MTT has been tainted and therefore every player in it (regardless of their position against the corrupt player) must surely have legal redress to at least recieve compensation for entrance fees, moreover, there would appear to be a strong case for punitive damages as well. I would go further and suggest this is an opportunity for a class action suit.
If AP still maintain their integrity and innocence then it would be an ideal opportunity and vehicle for them to clear their names and gain worldwide publicity in their favour. If they were incompetent or complicit then they go bankrupt. It's that simple.

 

[lots0]

I posted in that thread asking for headers...

Thanks.

Most of the time it is easy to spot forged/spoofed headers.

The proof lies in whether the hh's are correct and only people involved in the hands and AP can vouch for that.

I completely agree. Matching the email "HH's" with their personal "HH's" will be all the proof I need, as long as I can see it myself and not just read someone else telling me it's proof...

What was the date, number and name of AP Tournament the email record was from?
I couldn't seem to find that information anywhere.

I think the date and name of the Tourney is something your friends should make a little more visible, so dummies like me have a place to start looking for Proof, you know asking folks, "did you play in this Tourney... Would you care to compare HH's???"


I hope we start seeing some of those folks post here or one of the other forums this next week.

I would also really really like to see that email myself.

...an opportunity for a class action suit.

LOL you gotta be kidding me... If your so fired up about it, why not sue AP yourself, why share all that money...

 

[pokeraddict]

The MTT was on 9/12/07.

Outdated URL (Invalid)

It says 21:00 and I assume that is ET. The tourney ID # is 1883389.

 

[Adanthar]

I have 7 different emails in my inbox from different people who played with the cheaters and a copy of the Excel file. They are the same HH.

Sample hand from an email:

Stage #896653262 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $50
- 2007-09-12 21:48:03.007 (ET) [ 2007-09-12 21:48:03 ]
Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($7345 in chips)
Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10002.50 in chips)
Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($4966 in chips)
Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7057 in chips)
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($29722 in chips)
Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10990 in chips)
Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($12173 in chips)
Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7674.50 in chips)
KOOLKEITH13 - Posts small blind $25
SCARFACE_79 - Posts big blind $50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [2c As]
BIGREDAK86 - Folds
JOSIAHW - Folds
POTRIPPER - Raises $150 to $150
POKERME420 - Folds
POTR0AST - Folds
DZ00NUTS - Calls $150
KOOLKEITH13 - Folds
SCARFACE_79 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [3h 6c Qd]
POTRIPPER - Bets $150
DZ00NUTS - Folds
POTRIPPER - returned ($150) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Does not show
POTRIPPER Collects $375 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($375)
Board [3h 6c Qd]
Seat 1: BIGREDAK86 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: JOSIAHW Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: POTRIPPER collected Total ($375) HI$375) [Does not show]
Seat 4: POTR0AST Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: POKERME420 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: DZ00NUTS (dealer) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 8: KOOLKEITH13 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: SCARFACE_79 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
###########################################################################################

The flop, turn, etc. action is out of order because Absolute sent it out that way.

The same hand in the Excel file:

13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7345 7345 START Seat 8 - KOOLKEITH13 ($7345 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 10002.5 10002.5 START Seat 9 - SCARFACE_79 ($10002.50 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 4966 4966 START Seat 1 - BIGREDAK86 ($4966 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7057 7057 START Seat 2 - JOSIAHW ($7057 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 29722 29722 START Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($29722 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 10990 10990 START Seat 5 - POKERME420 ($10990 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 12173 12173 START Seat 4 - POTR0AST ($12173 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7674.5 7674.5 START Seat 7 - DZ00NUTS ($7674.50 in chips)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 -25 7345 7320 G-BET KOOLKEITH13 - Posts small blind $25
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 -50 10002.5 9952.5 G-BET SCARFACE_79 - Posts big blind $50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO *** POCKET CARDS ***
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 4966 4966 TABLE_USER Dealt to BIGREDAK86 [7h 4d]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 29722 29722 TABLE_USER Dealt to POTRIPPER [Kd Ad]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7057 7057 TABLE_USER Dealt to JOSIAHW [2d Qs]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 12173 12173 TABLE_USER Dealt to POTR0AST [Ac 5s]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 10990 10990 TABLE_USER Dealt to POKERME420 [6s 2s]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7674.5 7674.5 TABLE_USER Dealt to DZ00NUTS [7c 8h]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 7320 7320 TABLE_USER Dealt to KOOLKEITH13 [Qc 4s]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 9952.5 9952.5 TABLE_USER Dealt to SCARFACE_79 [2c As]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 4966 4966 TABLE_INFO BIGREDAK86 - Folds
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 29572 29572 TABLE_INFO POTRIPPER - Does not show
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 -150 29722 29572 G-BET POTRIPPER - Raises $150 to $150
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Stage #896653262 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $50 - 2007-09-12 21:48:03.007 (ET)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Table: 13 (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 10990 10990 TABLE_INFO POKERME420 - Folds
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 0 12173 12173 TABLE_INFO POTR0AST - Folds
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 -150 7674.5 7524.5 G-BET DZ00NUTS - Calls $150
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:48 -150 29572 29422 G-BET POTRIPPER - Bets $150
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 7524.5 7524.5 TABLE_INFO DZ00NUTS - Folds
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 150 29422 29572 G-PAYOUT POTRIPPER - returned ($150) : not called
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO *** SHOW DOWN ***
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO POTRIPPER Collects $375 from main pot
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO *** SUMMARY ***
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Total Pot($375)
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Board [3h 6c Qd]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 1: BIGREDAK86 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 2: JOSIAHW Folded on the POCKET CARDS
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 375 29572 29947 G-PAYOUT Seat 3: POTRIPPER collected Total ($375) HI$375) [Does not show]
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 4: POTR0AST Folded on the POCKET CARDS
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 5: POKERME420 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 7: DZ00NUTS (dealer) Folded on the FLOP
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 8: KOOLKEITH13 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
13 896653262 9/12/2007 21:49 0 0 0 TABLE_INFO Seat 9: SCARFACE_79 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Again, it's messed up because Absolute sent it out that way (but it's slightly more readable in Excel format). Nonetheless, it's obviously the same hand, with included hole cards. The pocketfives.com thread has posts from a number of people who played in the tourney, and needless to say, it's accurate.

The file also includes IP addresses and emails (yes, AP records those), so it's not going to be publicly released. However, anyone who is vouched for by trustworthy sources can see it.

 

[pokeraddict]

Here is the most important part of the thread at 2+2 where the data collector for thepokerdb figures out ip addresses. If this pans out it almost certainly shows AP was involved.

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Scroll down to this post "#12499725 - 10/14/07 05:22 PM " made by N 82 50 24. Here is the info after the tech stuff.

Then in the IP range starting with 200, there are two guys with identical IPs. snagglepuss alerted me to these two guys earlier. But here's the evidence on one of the guys:

1. This guy "enters" table 13 at 2007-09-12 21:02:14, which is 2 minutes and 14 seconds after the tourney started.
2. Table 13 is the table which POTRIPPER was playing on
3. He never leaves the table, which means he was observing the table until at least 11:20 PM EST (at least, that's how I understand this)
4. His IP address is based in Costa Rica.
5. This is the most damning. He is user id 363 at AP. That means he was created in the system very very early on. Most of these user ids are in the 6 or 7 figures.

I think this tells me that there was some sort of inside job going on.

This is very interesting stuff. Those converting seem to think the ip's are related to tables opening/closing and not players.

 

[Adanthar]

PA just beat me to that post, oops

 

[pokeraddict]

This is the most damning. He is user id 363 at AP. That means he was created in the system very very early on. Most of these user ids are in the 6 or 7 figures.

To put this onto perspective my oldest prop account is user is in the 1600's and I was easily one of the first few props when the place was a total ghosttown.

 

[Pinababy69]

The file also includes IP addresses and emails (yes, AP records those), so it's not going to be publicly released. However, anyone who is vouched for by trustworthy sources can see it.

Would you let Bryan have a look at it Adanthar? Then, if he's in agreement, he can post his opinion here, and the CM forum members can decide for themselves?

I'm fine with what you guys have posted, here and at 2+2. I just thought that it may put some of the members here minds at rest, if Bryan's opinion concurred with yours. Just a thought.

 

[Adanthar]

Would you let Bryan have a look at it Adanthar? Then, if he's in agreement, he can post his opinion here, and the CM forum members can decide for themselves?

I'm fine with what you guys have posted, here and at 2+2. I just thought that it may put some of the members here minds at rest, if Bryan's opinion concurred with yours. Just a thought.

Seriously...what's the proof threshold at this point? Is the claim that a dozen of us made up a 65536 line long Excel file with about a hundred players showing thousands of their hole cards as part of an elaborate scamming attempt? It's getting to be a bit much.

That said, I have no problem with this and if CM posts here/emails me he's welcome to the file. It's pretty tough to read and has *every* table for over 2 hours (not just table 13); you'll want to focus on only that one table.

 

[Pinababy69]

Adanthar, it's not for my sake that I asked, lol. Like I said, I had no problems believing the story from day one. My suggestion was only made in hoping that it might sway anyone who was on the fence, that's all.

Personally, I think more than enough "proof" has been posted. But if this one thing is all that's needed to put the issue over the top (as far as this forum goes)...having Bryan look and verify the email headers at least, seemed the simplest way to get there.

 

[Adanthar]

My copy is second hand, but I have CrazyMarco's email (everyone with the file does, lol) so Bryan can contact him directly if that's what he'd like.

 

[Pinababy69]

My copy is second hand, but I have CrazyMarco's email (everyone with the file does, lol) so Bryan can contact him directly if that's what he'd like.

Sounds like a plan. I'm gonna PM him, and see if he'll request an original of the email and if he has time to verify the headers. Thanks.

 

[pokeraddict]

I encourage this to be shared with Bryan as he can obviously be trusted with this type of info. Let's face it though, in a few days this will be all over the internet. All of the people who have their private info in these files (email addresses used to login to AP with, IP's and/or hole cards) will have all of their info exposed thanks to AP's blatant disregard of privacy on top of their other obvious problems.

As far as trying to convince the non believers I see it as pointless even though I've tried myself. Those who do not understand are those that do not want to understand, plain and simple. As mentoned before plenty of players have come forward to confirm the authenticity of the hh's that pertain to hands they participated in.

The bottom line is Absolute Poker lied, cheated and/or helped cover up cheating. If they were not directly involved they are almost certainly sitting on all these funds the cheats won which makes them cheats anyway. We're talking between $500,000 and $1,000,000 that players lost.

It's over AP, it's time to come clean and try to save your business.

 

[Pinababy69]

Your post pretty much sums it up pokeraddict. And you are probably also right that anyone who hasn't been convinced by now, most likely won't be. I did PM Bryan anyway, and ask him to take a look at it (and the updates on this thread), if he has time. Even just for myself, I'd like to see it followed through to the end. They're already rogued here (or not recommended), so I guess there's not much more he can do anyway.

Honestly, both you guys (especially pokeraddict) have my respect for following through so diligently on this, and not letting go. Not everyone cares enough to do that. I just hope that something good can come of it ie. if nothing else, a message to other sites of how not to run their business.

It's a difficult call as well if this would damage or help those who want online gaming regulated in the U.S. On one hand, the politicians could say "see, we told you, stealing from our U.S. citizens, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to do business here". On the other hand, it's a perfect example of why true regulation, licensing and some sort of accountability to an appropriate agency would have cut through all this bullshit.

 

[lots0]

Well I guess I am not going to be convinced.

I still don't see any proof, no evidence... Just a bunch of accusations from people that won't show any REAL evidence when asked for it (forum postings do NOT constitute proof).

Come on.... Make the evidence public. What are you guys afraid of??

How is anyone supposed to believe your accusations without any proof???

I guess some people are gonna believe the accusations because the accusers just keep repeating the accusations over and over... Never showing any proof. Let me repeat that... NEVER SHOWING ANY PROOF.

I don't know how many times in this thread I have asked to see the proof that keeps getting talked about... However, not one single piece of real evidence has yet been shown...

When asked for proof, I get more forum postings, telling me they believe, giving me reasons why they can't present the proof.... but never showing any...

It is not about understanding poker... It's about understanding fairness.

Talk about a lynch mob mentality.

 

[happygobrokey]

Well I guess I am not going to be convinced.

I still don't see any proof, no evidence... Just a bunch of accusations from people that won't show any REAL evidence when asked for it (forum postings do NOT constitute proof).

Come on.... Make the evidence public. What are you guys afraid of??

How is anyone supposed to believe your accusations without any proof???

I guess some people are gonna believe the accusations because the accusers just keep repeating the accusations over and over... Never showing any proof. Let me repeat that... NEVER SHOWING ANY PROOF.

I don't know how many times in this thread I have asked to see the proof that keeps getting talked about... However, not one single piece of real evidence has yet been shown...

When asked for proof, I get more forum postings, telling me they believe, giving me reasons why they can't present the proof.... but never showing any...

It is not about understanding poker... It's about understanding fairness.

Talk about a lynch mob mentality.

make the evidence PUBLIC? PUBLISHING (see the resemblance between those words?) the hand histories on a PUBLIC forum is not making it public?

there is more than enough evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that cheating occurred. 90% of correct river decisions could be just ridiculous skill, but 99+% is beyond the skill of even the greatest demi-gods of the game.

what is proof? how would you be satisfied? does the cheater have to tell you in person that they cheated and explain precisely how? in a trial, evidence is taken to determine if there is proof BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that the crime took place and was committed by the accused. the accused is not forced to come forward with the methodology they used to commit the crime, or no one would ever be found guilty. the culprits won't incriminate themselves willingly.

seeing ~90% of flops, only folding when other players had pocket monsters. always successfully calling down bluffs with rags that beat the other players' rags. making a huge bet then folding to dump your chips, when even the lord of the donks knows you should be pot-committed.

that IS the evidence. not a definitive PROOF (which can only be demonstrated by the people responsible, who have a right not to be forced to incriminate themselves), but evidence showing BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that there WAS cheating, which equates to an effective PROOF.

just as with alleged casino rigging, you cannot PROVE 100% that it IS rigged, all you can do is give sufficient evidence showing it is INFINITELY UNLIKELY to NOT be rigged.

simple as.

 

[lots0]

make the evidence PUBLIC? PUBLISHING (see the resemblance between those words?) the hand histories on a PUBLIC forum is not making it public?

What is the source of those hand histories? Why can't it be published? (you know made public). I am expected to believe these forum posts without question? Without evidence?

there is more than enough evidence...

Really where is it, I haven't seen it. Care to post some links? Show an email header? Show an Email or even just something a little more than, "jeez look what I can post in an open forum"...

in a trial, evidence is taken to determine if there is proof BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that the crime took place and was committed by the accused.

No kidding? Well where is your evidence? All I am asking is for you or one of your buddies to just show me the evidence and stop telling me all about it.

that IS the evidence.

Really, then why can't you show it to me and not just tell me about it? I want to see where the information comes from... is that too much to ask? Well I guess so.

just as with alleged casino rigging, you cannot PROVE 100% that it IS rigged...

You can prove an online casino is rigged. So your argument is moot.

Again all I am asking for is to see the evidence for myself and NOT just have someone I don't know keep telling me that the evidence is there...

Why is that so hard to do?

 

[pokeraddict]

So posting every hand involving the cheats from a tourney he won calling an u/i ten high on the river and playing flawless the whokle way through doesn't convince? Did you even look at the hands? The VPIP chart? Anything?

You're right you're never going to be convinced. I think you're the only one too. Even the very few non believers at 2+2 are 100% convinced now. Even Jeremy at PAW who deleted the thread on his forum at AP's request and has who knows how many subs now has changed his mind.

Have you noticed that 2 days later AP has not even come out denying the email was sent? How about claiming the hh's were forged? NO! In other words AP is so nailed they can't even think of a lie to cover their tracks.

If you are not convinced by now obviously you will never even if AP ever admits it.

 

[lots0]

So posting every hand involving the cheats from a tourney he won calling an u/i ten high on the river and playing flawless the whokle way through doesn't convince? Did you even look at the hands? The VPIP chart? Anything?

Well some evidence would be good. How about these guys posting the SOURCE of their information instead of just telling everyone about it and posting their interpretation of what happened?

If you are not convinced by now obviously you will never even if AP ever admits it.

Oh give me a break.

All I ask for is some real evidence and these are the types of responses I get.

Ya the lynch mob is real convinced the guy they are hanging is guilty... Makes me feel real confident in the judgment of the mob. I guess that is why lynching is still illegal...

 

[pokeraddict]

If it is forged why wouldn't AP be claiming that? Even in their BS statements they have never denied the facts posted, only that the facts were just a small sample. Now that there is a damaging master hh out there they still have said nothing denying it. The master hh has been confirmed by others as what AP has sent out in the past. The hh's have also been backed up by those involved in hands as legit. You seem to have ignored al this. From here on I think I will simply dismiss all this as being troll like, there is no reason for me to waste my time on the 1 person in the industry that still does not believe.

 

[lots0]

If it is forged why wouldn't AP be claiming that?

Oh that is a good one... some more real evidence... NOT!

Why should they reply? Are they going to be any better off after they reply? Is any response from AP going to stop the lynch mob... I don't think so.

I think AP management are being smart at this point not to discuss this until some real evidence is presented.

If they deny the accusations they give the accusations credibility, why should they do that?

The master hh has been confirmed by others as what AP has sent out in the past.

Again, so what? If you won't let me see it, it is not really evidence is it?

Other poker rooms send out complete hand histories after the game has been archived. SO again where is your evidence?

And I am not the ONLY person that does not believe these accusations, no matter how much you would like to believe otherwise.

Ya I am a troll...A fucking troll that wants evidence and not just more bullshit that don't prove anything.

BTW pokeraddict, this is at least the third time in this thread you said you were going to ignore me or insinuated I was a troll... If your not going to provide any real evidence... Please go ahead and ignore me, but I won't do the same. I will still question you and ask you to provide evidence of the accusations you are making.

 

[ThodorisK]

I have already posted my arguments in the threads:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ertain-that-all-poker-rooms-are-rigged.18946/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/how-many-online-casinos-cheat.19491/
Anyway, I will briefly repeat them here:

Why would the pokerooms have an interest in cheating poker players since they earn a large and steady rake? Because if all the players had about the same poker skill, then in the long run all of the deposited money would end up to the rake. But if some players because of their skill have an edge over the rest of the players which is greater than the x% rake, e.g. (x+1)%, (in many cases the rake is lower than 5% because of bonuses, rakebacks etc), then these players would keep taking a considerable percentage of the deposited money, and only the rest would be going to the rake. But if the casino cheats these players, then the casino will keep the 100% of the deposited money. You might say the casino can simply cheat the winners. Yes, this can be the case too. But what really matters is who is or will be a winner in the long run.

Yeah, right, they wouldnt cheat because this would be exposed. No, it cannot be exposed. A cheating of 1-3 out of 100 hands is perhaps enough to eliminate any edge a poker player can have after the rake (well, if not eliminate it, of course it decreases it) , and it is almost impossible to be statistically proven with a satisfactory degree of statistical certainty, even in the game of blackjack, imagine how impossible it is in the complicated game of poker.
SO SINCE IT IS THAT IMPOSSIBLE TO PROOVE SUCH A LITTLE CHEATING, THEN WHY WOULDNT THE POKER ROOMS CHEAT A LITTLE?

But most pokerooms do not even bother to cheat little enough in order to hide it. Obviously because so far, no matter how much they increased the rate of cheating, this was not getting exposed by player communication in the forums, and because this poor way of communication is so far the only way this could be exposed. And the casinos also took care to fill up the forums with shills and affiliates who would quickly fill up the threads with many and long posts so any accusing arguments would be difficult to find or to read and think on them. The owners of the forums themselves are affiliates. The casino adverts in them prove this. Now you are accusing Absolute for cheating, like you discovered America. And even then, you tried to present it is as the work of hackers who were common players and had no association with the casino. And not a word that the other casinos might cheat as well. Implying that if any other casinos cheated, this would be immediately exposed like the case of Absolute.
Why did almost all of you attacked me as being out of my mind, that I lost because of my bad poker play, that they have no reason to cheat, etc etc, when I accused pokerooms of cheating? It is damn obvious that such arguments come from posters who have common interests with the casinos. The most amusing argument I read, is that it is we who have to prove that casinos cheat and not the casinos who have to prove to us they dont cheat. Implying that without very strong statistical indications, the probability that they dont cheat is almost 100% so we are out of our minds just because we give a considerable probability that they do cheat. Of course, the blinding obvious truth is that since they have an interest to cheat, and since it is not possible to statistically prove a little cheating, then the more probable case is that they do cheat a little, even if there were no statistical indications.

I have played thousands of hands at William Hill and Sportingbet.
But I have also played at 888.com, Ladbrokes, Grosvernor, and some others.
Some preflop hands (e.g. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, etc ) as well as some flop hands (e.g. flopping a top pair when having such a strong preflop hand) are bound to produce profit in the long run even after a 5% rake, if you are not the most stupid player of the world. Therefore when after many hundreds of hands, exactly because of these strong hands, you end up with great losses (compared with the money you wagered) instead of great profits, then the probability of such an extremely bad luck happening is less than 5%, perhaps much less than 1%. This is statistical evidence for cheating.
No, my losses were not because of the post blinds, as I chose to play no limit where the posts were 1/50 or 1/100 of the average pot.
No, my losses were not because of the fact that I lost much when I lost and won little when I won because of my bad play. I am not the most stupid poker player of the world. Of course this thing happened, but not because of exceptional stupid play of mine, but because of cheating or very rare bad luck. But a very rare bad luck is itself the definition of statistical evidence for cheating.

 

[happygobrokey]

What is the source of those hand histories? Why can't it be published? (you know made public). I am expected to believe these forum posts without question? Without evidence?

Really where is it, I haven't seen it. Care to post some links? Show an email header? Show an Email or even just something a little more than, "jeez look what I can post in an open forum"...

No kidding? Well where is your evidence? All I am asking is for you or one of your buddies to just show me the evidence and stop telling me all about it.

Really, then why can't you show it to me and not just tell me about it? I want to see where the information comes from... is that too much to ask? Well I guess so.

You can prove an online casino is rigged. So your argument is moot.

Again all I am asking for is to see the evidence for myself and NOT just have someone I don't know keep telling me that the evidence is there...

Why is that so hard to do?

that's jokes, pal. for one, i don't play there.

the hand histories are the evidence. they came from absolute. it has been published, by being presented openly in public.

people on the witness stand SAY what they KNOW. they can't take you back to the scene or re-enact it for the jury. the jury doesn't know the witnesses, but those are the people that have the evidence and report it. they don't bring the jury to the robbed store, or roll the dead body into the courtroom.

only the cheaters could SHOW you that they were cheating. the evidence you and we all get to see is what happened in the games, from the people who were playing.

so how do you PROVE a casino is rigged? you say it's possible, so how is it done? unless you are looking at the program code and are able to decipher it to show that it manipulates outcomes, all you have to go on is hand after hand of statistics, which is the same situation as here. the hand histories show that it is statistically impossible for the player to have done what he did without having access to more information than those that he was playing against. with casino rigging, you look at the results and when you have enough stats to prove it's statisticall impossible for the game to be fair, that's how you know it's rigged. so i don't see what you're getting at with that point.

all you ever say is show me evidence. hand histories are evidence. making the correct decision every single time without fail is evidence. if you were there at the time and witnessed the game, then you would have the evidence you seek. since you weren't, you take the evidence presented by the witnesses and go by that.

oh well. be obtuse. believe that so many people are perjoring and corroborating and fabricating hand histories and wasting all their time in concert trying to sully the name of a poker site. it's all good. fuck those whiners, they lost money and are making up bullshit to try to steal their money back. bloody ingrates.

 

[pokeraddict]

Watch Potripper's entire tourney in a replayer.



I'm sure shortly it will be on Youtube as there is some controversy about it being on a login site. You can view them for free but you have to sign up. It's some sick stuff.

http://www.pokerxfactor.com/servlet/pxf?a=mv&handid=90370&t=myhand2&fn=2_20071014_190711|2&time=1192473858401

Username: [email protected]
pw: bababa

 

[pokeraddict]

Thodo, I saw your post in BBV at 2+2. You're really just going to get flamed there trying to use one rogue poker room's behavior to make a blanket online poker is rigged statement. It won't do any good, especially in the threads about this.

 

[GaryWatson]

Thodo, I saw your post in BBV at 2+2. You're really just going to get flamed there trying to use one rogue poker room's behavior to make a blanket online poker is rigged statement. It won't do any good, especially in the threads about this.

LMAO, God loves a trier. Sendin you some more rep points Theo

 

[I Like Pie]

Why are people still responding to lots0? He's just being a troll. Ignore him and he might go away.
Anyone with a brain can see all this evidence is damning.

 

[pokeraddict]

It looks like BW has delisted AP and UB. I'm trying to find out for sure.

 

[ThodorisK]

What's BW and UB? AP is Absolute poker right?