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ID checks, KYC and one-solution

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Igor82, Jul 10, 2013.

    Jul 10, 2013
  1. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    First off - apologies on the length of this post. I cant figure out how to use the CM blog yet.

    EDIT: I wanted to test the level of my "inability" by going to CM blogs and there it is - "a new post button at the top" :)

    So after reading VWM and Nifty's "popcorn-cravings-inducing" back/forth communications and chiming in here and there onto 3 separate simultaneous threads on ID checks and deriving issues, i did some research on anti-fraud measures.

    Short of it is: there aren't too many. Yes, there are some UK centric solutions that are expanding like 192.com, there are some "services" that don't offer much promise. I've been looking for something i stumbled across many moons ago "www.playerinformation.com... You must register/login in order to see the link. player *something*" ... I cant remember or find it any longer. It was a basic centralised database of KYC checks with a login for players and a login for operators but the site hasn't budged in donkey years making me believe nothing much kicked off there.

    Now i stumbled across You must register/login in order to see the link. and frankly it just seems like another attempt to create something that will need as much player uptake (and meet with my privacy infringement claims) as it will need operator uptake to actually work.

    This particular one is a joke IMHO, seeing as players are required to take a photo and as such not only will they have an issue with, but my best friend managed to print a pic of mine from facebook in colour, stick it in front of my high-end Alienware laptop screen not a week ago which in turn welcomed "me" generously, and proceed to elaborate about my first gay/transexual experience on my personal facebook page. So much for Photo-ID checks. A profile pic of a random guy can curb this photo-proofing system.

    None of these systems are a long term solution in their own right.

    KYC process is already laborious. I have read a few claims over here why it is done and noted that few players have a general grasp but not many players have an entire visibility to why it's there so i'd like to clarify that:

    1. It's a regulation requirement. It is there to curb the "customer not present" issue and that extends to ID, email activation, sometimes mobile phone activation and utility bill check.

    2. Payment method confirmation. That is the next step, which is used to

    i) confirm that the user is the owner of the payment method and for example in case of cards, shows that it is not a stolen database of numbers, but the card is physically present and can be scanned by the user. It also connects the KYC checks with Card details as CC name information in fact will not be shared by the banks generally and is hard to validate.

    ii) More than regulatory, it's there for operator protection from bogus claims that the user had no idea what he was doing. This is the reason why such requirement (screenshots) extends to e-wallets these days. E-wallets have their own KYC checks and card details are not exchanged directly with the casino so regulation deos not enforce it, but common sense in light of fraudulent claims does.

    Which brings me to the last area: definitive fraud.

    All additional checks and why it sometimes takes days to clear a person are due to vast amount of fraud going on. And i'm not talking about credit card theft, i'm talking about fraud that directly affects an operation and monetises on incentive bonuses or creates +EV via casino incentives, colluding efforts on a poker table and so on. These checks include a vast range of processes that for obvious reasons, i will not expose here.

    So in such light, what do centralised ID checks do? Save you some time to certify yourself once instead of multiple times?

    Sorry to burst your bubble VWM but if operators are to come on board and their voice is to count on the process itself, there is a good chance that photo ID and/or passport will be a requirement as it is the easiest to authenticate and by such logic, if you have them scanned once, doing it once or doing it individually where you want to play does not overwhelmingly simplify matters. It does not "solve" your ID problem, it may at best alleviate its frequency.

    There is a solution that can be implemented though, and it is not based on a KYC database alone. It needs a powerful engine, a driving force that will make enough momentum for the industry to come behind it over the years, starting with operators who will benefit directly first, backed by providers who will listen to their operators and finishing with regulators who historically aren't really law "makers" - they simply condition what seems to be the public consensus and attempt to enforce it.

    That is a Fraud database. A model which is not run by making the KYC process easier for players, but it is run by making the anti-fraud measures easier for operators. You see, if we had a quick-tap solution to spotting a fraudster, we wouldn't have to put you through the ropes of scrutiny as we do, for one. A database by which the various AP players and those that swear by "beatingbonuses" types of sites can be classified as such by being reported enough times. Multi-accounting users have their class, credit card thief's, ID thief's, and every other disingenuous one deposit loser out there that is craving their deposit back through lies and deceit because they either don't understand the industry they opted to be a part of or they understand it all-to-well.

    That engine starts with small things, like a database of bogus PAB's and player info on those for example that is available to the accredited operators. It starts by a collective effort of few key OPERATORS sharing their information on fraudulent and genuinely deceitful players because it's easier to get those heads to talk than the masses of community at once and it slowly grows. It will grow not because it will overwhelmingly help the players and their KYC, it will grow because it will increase profits stemming from anti-fraud efficiency. On a B2B level, e-walls came chime in, vouchers, etc. and it could have a much faster growth curve.

    Imagine how many small time operators could benefit from such a service, at a monthly membership fee. An anti-fraud operator community. And that is where it starts....

    At this point when enough gaming places you have learned to love and enjoy are a part of it, players simply certify their identities there. They will either exist in the database and be red-flagged already or they will not. As their playing lifetime progresses so does their fraud rating.

    Imagine a casino with 15 PAB complaints in 3 months. That surely raises Bryan's eyebrow. Now imagine a player with 15 fraud complaints and the reflection to their "credit rating" - is a same system inverted.

    Benefits are clear:

    - Operator members have easier and more efficient anti-fraud measures increasing their revenue stream with less effort.
    - Players get an impartial rating system in terms of their "fraud rating"
    - Players that are members of this system will have a much wider, more lenient welcome to the operators using it as well as possibly more lenient bonuses etc.

    The main difference is that it will start with profit orientation and money makes the world go round.

    Not enough transparency is achieved between gaming providers, and while we are competitive to one another we can also be of great mutual benefit to one another. It starts with us and the end benefit, as always, is to the honest gaming customer that enjoys their pass-time.

    Throw in responsible gaming in there if you like... i think its a swell idea :D It needs a starting point though - a muscle to get it going. (wink wink)
    6 people like this.
  2. Jul 10, 2013
  3. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    International Money Launderer
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Yes, you put some work into that lot!
    The thing is, casinos are an across-border product. OK, we establish a base. IF incorrect info gets onto it (as is common in credit reference agencies) there has to be a system of comeback. Here, CRA's have been made to pay compensation to those libelled where mistakes (usually cross-identities) have been made. If the system was to be legally viable, then it would need to be accountable in all countries it was used in. I think a simpler solution would be for operators to share information gleaned from experience; those players verified and genuine and those on the fraud/AP list. Obviously this would be a non-contact ideal, so no hijacking customers from other sites once you have info. This could be limited to accredited casinos, whom would be trusted to use it properly.
    There doesn't seem to be one simple solution to this issue, but that's the nearest I can see.
  4. Jul 10, 2013
  5. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    Indeed! :)

    What you speak of is exactly what I mean. It does not have to legally viable system, it over-complicates matters. It needs to be fair and accountable system. It needs to be transparent.

    Imagine you have one operator that is feeding more claims on players than any other, but these players have not come about on the radar of any other operator. That would raise an eyebrow toward the operator themselves, not the players they are putting forward.

    Likewise, similarly to the PAB conditions, you cant just name and shame - a process must be agreed for a valid inclusion.

    Finally, you create a point rating system per player which puts them in escalating classes right up (down?) to rogued.

    Then finally finally :)D) an established review board that decides on the process and conditions and reviews operator performance and fairness as well as the community progress and impact - keeping the system in check and accountable.

    Imagine you had your favourites on there (sorry to be naming and... what's the opposite of shaming?): Mark, Andy, guy that people keep mentioning to me from 3dice, Ben, etc from the operator side. You have Bryan & few other impartial members of the community (with strong community real-estate and presence) that keep operators in check and offer impartial advice and there to ensure we are all on the same page. It's unifying he industry by eliminating the cancer: the fraudster > the symptom why the KYC checks are more and more rigorous.

    It could work in theory, but it would also mean player information needs to be exposed amongst competitors. First step would be - only expose it after definitive account closure etc etc...

    It just seems like the right approach to me, though it sounds like a one of those "if the world was this way" ideas for now...
  6. Jul 10, 2013
  7. zebedy

    zebedy No!!!! Im Spartacus MM webmeister

    brain stergeon
    Up a Tree
    Was this what you were looking for ?


    The owner is also a member at CM http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/p-v-.html

    It was a pity he couldnt get it working as something like this would be good for everyone involved IMO
    1 person likes this.
  8. Jul 10, 2013
  9. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    YES! That was the one... it was promising at first... pity it didn't kick off.
  10. Jul 10, 2013
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Such a system, like a credit score from the credit reference agencies, needs to be transparent, and provide for a right of redress for the inclusion of incorrect information.

    Rival had such a system, but far from being transparent, they at first denied it even existed. They then misused it, and part of the lack of transparency was down to them wanting to misrepresent which casinos were part of which group.

    The concept has been badly damaged by the actions of Rival.

    The other issue is that being an AP is not fraud, nor even a breach of contract. It is a bit like being smart with the weekly shop, playing one chain off against another to get the cheapest all round shop rather than just diving into the nearest Tesco and buying the lot there.

    APs only become fraudsters when they start to misrepresent themselves to the casino in order to gain an advantage, an obvious example being multiple accounts under different, but borrowed, identities.

    Simply spotting a good offer is no more fraudulent than saving money by using a "first time at Sainsburys" voucher one week, a "first time at Tesco" the next, and finishing with a "first time at Asda" on week three. It becomes fraud if on week four another "first time at Sainsburys" offer is used, and an additional online shopping account is created with a few misleading details in order to trick the system into accepting the second voucher.

    What causes the problem is giving BETTER offers to unknown new customers than to the loyal customer base. It would NOT be a problem if loyal customers got better deals than new ones.

    In the UK, when denied a loan or card, and I feel this is not a fair decision based on my financial history, I can obtain all the data held on me by credit reference agencies, and if it is wrong, I can have it corrected and my application reconsidered.

    The Rival system was "top secret". Players were not allowed to see the data held on them, and thus not able to even check that it was correct, let alone challenge any mistakes.

    Similar fears will create severe problems with attempts to create such a product as a central rating system for players, even though it will end up giving the average recreational player a far better experience.

    The other problem with casino KYC is that it is seen as "one size fits all", and this leaves players of some countries at a disadvantage. Addressing this is not merely an industry problem, but one for the governments that are prepared to accept online casinos as a legitimate business. Some requirements are also set in the past, but with the spread of the internet things have moved on. Paper utility bills every three months are "so last century", and are the exception rather than the norm, with considerable effort being made by the government and "green lobby" to eradicate "paper billing" in favour of eBilling, which is often accompanied by automated regular monthly payments rather than "on demand" quarterly billing. Unfortunately, this model leaves players without the necessary "utility bill not older than 3 months" to scan and send with their photo ID.
    Since the government here sees no need for a national photo ID card, we have a myriad of local and regional photo ID style services, which means that whilst UK players CAN often get a "government issued photo ID" as required, they are often finding it getting rejected by casinos because they lack the expertise needed to verify all the differing formats.

    There have even been a few cases where UK players have had their driving license, even their passport, rejected because the casino has lacked the expertise to deal with the document. This makes players mistrust the true motives behind KYC, and it is often seen as a "non payment trick" rather than a genuine attempt to comply with KYC.

    Innocent players are also enraged by the "extended checks" they are sometimes subjected to. Whilst they are anti fraud measures, an innocent player CANNOT understand what it is that they have done wrong in a given instance to create a mix up after which they probably end up being cleared. If they are innocent, and have done nothing different than before, the logical explanation to them is that the whole thing is a staling tactic, rather than a genuine validation check. They also feel insulted by the process as it implies they HAVE done something wrong, and they are never told what went wrong, even when they are eventually cleared.

    In the vacuum of information, innocent players are left to speculate as to what has gone wrong, and one obvious thought, apart from a deliberate stalling tactic, is that they have become the unwitting victim of ID fraud, and that some fraudster has attempted to use their details to defraud a casino, possibly the same casino, and this brings the fear that this is an ongoing problem that they need to address, yet the industry refuses to assist by telling them enough about the problem so that they can start securing their identities before problems get out of hand.

    After all, for every fraudster that uses a false identity in an attack on a casino, there is a victim who's identity has been hijacked, and if there is a rating system, possibly irreparably damaged in the process.

    Under UK and EU law, such "secret databases" are illegal. Everyone has the legal right to receive a copy of all the data that a business holds and processes about them, a right to expect it to be accurate, and a right of correction where it is not. If there were an industry wide rating system, there are bound to be data disclosure requests from players that find themselves on a true industry wide blacklist. Individual operators would have to take care that what they pass to such a service is accurate, and can be backed up with evidence if challenged.

    The credit reference industry has had years, if not decades, of operating under these legal constraints to provide a rating system to help banks and other businesses decide who is a good credit risk, and who is not.

    Players also need a system where they can assess the risk of casinos, mainly to do with whether they have sufficient backing to honour monies lodged with them. It would help players avoid being stung in situations like the Purple Lounge collapse, where there was little in the way of warning signs of a problem that had been building for years.

    If KYC is going to be so "pedantic" in it's requirements, these requirements must be made clear in "headline" information, not relegated to "smallprint".

    For example, the "headline" advertising would say something like "Must be over 18 years of age and hold a valid passport". Seeing this would hopefully prompt players to query "why do I need a passport" before they register, rather than find out the hard way when they withdraw. The answer to said query would make them aware that they need a certain minimum level of documentation to play, even though such a requirement is not at all obvious for something you do sat at home on the PC. Everybody would accept that they would need a valid passport to fly to Vegas and play there, but would not necessarily think such a requirement also applies when Vegas effectively comes to them and sits on their PC.
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jul 10, 2013
  13. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    True and not. While it can be transparent to user as to their rating - how they are rated should be reserved to be a unanimous decision of the operators who keep each other in check. Also the reason why the system should have impartial review body composed of industry reps as well as "advocates of fair play" - aka, community real-estate owners. Your rating does not depend on Rival or any one provider, it depends on multitude of operators and their agreement in regard to the classification of a "fraudster", Advantage Player, etc.

    Irrelevant. Most of your post comparison to Tesco's/ASDA is bogus. AP is not a loyal customer, and casinos are not commodity suppliers - they are an entertainment industry that does not sell a product or a service for a one way charge, we pay back and as such take the risk together with you. The margin is not the holy grail of guaranteed profit and as we all know, takes it's toll in the long term game play which is not what any AP is willing to stay for.

    AP is an in/out hitter that abuses the bonus driven conditioning of the industry that has gone too far to back out from it's insane acquisition model. I will openly say that on my casino AP's are not welcome and will never be. While i wont generalise in my terms and use "discretionary" terminology, the system sets bonus conditions to the best of my ability to draw a fine line between alienating AP's and not alienating huge variety of different player gameplay types and in process alienating their business. It's an unnecessary headache and you'd be fooling yourself if you didn't think that every fair-model operator out there would LOVE to be able to cater for every player, risk and headache free, instead of explain why is *this* bonus system better or different to *that* bonus system.

    AP's make the bonusing system complex, they 'coined' the need for spirit of the bonus terminology which in turn got abused by rogue operators, and just like lack of fraudsters would ease up the KYC requirements, lack of the player type that has absolutely ZERO interest in actually "gambling" and absolutely 100% interest in ONLY profiting from a safe bet would ease up the bonuses themselves. That's not a loyal customer - that's not even a customer. That's a freebie hunter that will never risk his own penny if possible and frankly only lose when caught out or did not know enough to follow through.

    Their behaviour may not be illegal, but just as B&M casinos kick out card counters (which if anything is more bewildering because you are banned for using your brain while risking your own money), we reserve the right to kick out a customer that isn't in it for the leisure but for pure calculated profit based on our general "welcome, please do try us out and we hope you stay" incentive.

    Yeah, definitely class that one as "no bonus for you here, sir".

    :lolup:Rant over.:lolup:

    Too late for that since the industry's initial two decades grew to be completely bonus oriented and the market is too saturated with the rogue casinos (and casinos in general) to incentivise a player to give a new place a shot when they already have a home they trust and service they know. Places like these where long-winded posts and open community discussions may show a casino in a fair and worthy light that can overshadow a low bonus offering are far and few in-between and don't work as a mass acquisition model. It's too late to change and as long as the giants still do it, little guys with no brand presence will need to beat them and "bigger bonus > harder terms" race will continue.

    Again you compare a life impacting situation with an entertainment business which allows you almost 50/50 odds of doubling your money. In fact gives you extra money without you making a single bet. It is the equivalent of a supermarket offer that states "promise you will buy a 100 quid worth of stuff and we'll give you 200 free, for a potential profit of 5 quid (maybe) while possibly giving you 5000 if you are lucky"... it cant be compared. Banks, shops, supermarkets - none of those industry's start you off with 2for1 offer with a decent chance to come out on top over your few hundred spins. It's a non-comparison. You can TAKE/EARN money here by risking your own - you cant do that anywhere else, which is why gambling is

    If as a casino i only had YOU as a player my risk would be equal to yours, my 3% advantage means absolutely nothing unless you decide to play against me day in - day out for the next 15 years. Margin is not a guarantee on an individual player level. As such, your classification can be argued but should not be made "transparent" to you - so if you are indeed a fraudster, your claim is you should be shown how you were classified so you dont do it again?

    Sorry, but you cant have your cake and eat it too VWM. Either accept a transparent KYC/fraud central system that will help an honest player - and deter the unwanted one - or don't. If this one ticket should give you access to multitude of operators, then by default this one ticket should bar you too. Otherwise, why cant operators argue your validity of access if you can argue the validity of your bar?

    90% of the laws work on the same premise - generic enough to captivate the entirety of risk ,but flexible enough to be applied to a situation with reason. You can bet when eBilling becomes the norm , ALL industries will follow, likewise you can bet your government will soon conform to the biometric ID much faster than casinos conforming to "ah you are from UK? yeah sure transact without limitations or conditions..."

    There is no point in creating double standards. You say "get with the times" - well "the times" on an international level are to get some form of ID that is easy to authenticate. As few people pointed out to you in the other threads its not nearly as hard as you make it out to be any longer.

    Not expertise, capacity. It's about standards - "a myriad of photo ID's" also includes my local squash court annual membership card. Should that be accepted? It's about confirming authenticity and you do that by accepting a standard you can authenticate. I have no idea what your local library id standards and KYC checks are and if you just need to walk in there and say you are Richard Branson before the old lady stamps your photo with a smile.

    Surely you cannot expect such level of lenience? You simply have got to meet the industry you enjoy somewhere in the middle and as pointed out on other threads, it really is not that hard.

    lets not create laws on the basis of out-of-the-norm cases made by ill equipped business owners. I'm sure there have also been cases of superiorly photo shopped ID's or hacked systems but the industry didnt create a process by which you would have to fly to the casino door in malta/gib/IoM to pick up your cheque in person :p

    yeah those cases are dumb, but it's hardly the norm of behaviour. I have not met "enraged" players yet to be honest. A couple in my lifetime.

    That said, if anti fraud measures were more transparent, the innocent player would not need to be subjected to scrutiny by each and every operator with their own process and their own views - they would be unanimously approved to the network, or barred from it.

    Trust me, if operators actually spoke, the "innocent" would not be victimised nearly as much as you portray it. They may be *sometimes* victimised by individual operation that is ill equipped or takes it too far, but they are rarely "molested" by a class A operator. Moreover, in a transparent talkative system, one claim could as much be faced with an overwhelming rejection as it could with acceptance. The process would count on the collective experience and transparency - very much like banks do with credit checks.

    :what: I can create a database RIGHT NOW of players i think see red dots when they sit down. and i can classify my business to treat those players like royalty or not accept them, then i could convince another 50 businesses that such parameters are valid and now the 50 of us would put it in the terms that if you don't fall within the accepted rating of this collective business community - you are out. and there is NOTHING, but absolutely NOTHING illegal about it.

    True but that data does not need to be disclosed to a player suspected of behaviour that does not conform to the business acceptance standards. If a fraudster accused of fraud starts stomping feet that they want to know, with a smile i do not answer, but if however Max, LGA, or any REGULATORY or LEGAL body needs proof, I have it at the ready.

    While you are indeed due your transaction, banking, game activity details, your bonus to deposit % uptake, bet size to deposit ratio, ip similaities with X,Y,Z and other fraud points do not have to exposed.

    True but then you infringe into privacy or non public businesses. It's a two way street. You either trust the regulators to do their job, or you don't. If a player can access the entirety of financial information of every business out there, so can their competitors, making the door wide open for takeovers, and various other tactics... i don't want betsson to know how big or small i am until we agree for due diligence to be done on my business signed by me and with aim of a specific partnership...

    But you don't always need a passport and you aren't always conformed to one regulation because regulation itself changes with the region - hence why a POLICY that is agreed upon is the way to go.
    1 person likes this.
  14. Jul 10, 2013
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Substitute "biggest names in British business" with "biggest operators in online gambling" and then "names" with "players" and you have what you propose as the basis of your operator fed player rating system. The list had to be closed down once found out because it was ILLEGAL under data laws, as are all the others. They operate secretly, so of course they need to be found out before a legal challenge can be mounted.

    The data protection laws relate to "personally identifiable data", so any rating system that can be used to personally identify a player would fall under the remit of these data laws, and require openness and disclosure on request of the data held on a given individual.

    Non identifiable data could be gathered and processed outside of these laws, so you could have statistics on certain countries or patterns of play, but this would not be able to identify and follow individual players.

    The way around such rules would be to operate from outside the EU, but take players from within. Unfortunately, this luxury is not going to last as many EU countries, including the UK, are tightening the rules which will result in the case of the UK that casinos offering games to UK players being governed by UK laws.

    In the case of credit scoring, whilst the scoring algorithm itself does not have to be disclosed, the input data relating to an individual does. Appeals against loan refusal are dealt with by the Financial Regulator, and no doubt the new system will have UK regulators dealing with player complaints.

    The problem with the current system used to combat AP is that their bets are taken, and then they are retrospectively voided. This is not what happens when a land casino kicks out a card counter. The bets already accepted and resolved remain, but the casino states that all future bets will not be accepted.

    Any rating system would have to work like this in order to get the mass of players on side. This means checking the fraud and AP rating at the point of registration, and declining entry at that point if the database flags up fraud or an AP risk. Without involving the emotive issue of retrospective voiding of winnings, there would be less of an opportunity to gain sympathy on forums.

    This has already happened. Players who are rejected at the point of registration make the same level of fuss, particularly the APs, but on average get less sympathy because they have not had winnings voided, merely their bets refused.

    However, too aggressive an approach could still scare off the players the industry wants.

    The existence of the database would also be exposed, as it would be the only logical explanation for a player being blackballed from a string of unrelated casinos after being too clever at a few.

    It's how the Rival player rating system dragged the reputation of Rival as a brand down, and deterred ordinary players as well as the APs from signing up.

    Playtech also have a database of APs, but they won't admit it, although the operator of Grand Duke once let slip that he had used it to bar a new player at the point of registration.
  16. Jul 11, 2013
  17. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    Fine, easily solved then:

    Case 1:

    1. Similarity to individual player /group of players > 30 points.
    2. Game activity connection suspicioins> 10 points
    3. XXX XXX "insert vague rule that doesnt give out how here" > 50 points

    total points: 225 > classification: off the charts colluder. Data attributed by casino A. result account closed at casino A.

    Data confirmed to be similar in casino B,C,D. Casino E did not pick up on such pattern yet. others have not heard of him/her.

    Result: others can accept his registration at their own risk, however since the player rating (some form of ID that cannot be traced to an individual could be assigned for public listing) is public those casinos knew what they were getting into and as such taking deposits and not paying out winnings could be classified as poor busines practice.

    Player scoring system is exposed but the algorithms aren't. (for a raw example)

    Bottom line open comms in cases of fraud between operators once accounts are closed by an operator can damage no one and attribute to everyone. It just takes solidarity.

    that's EXACTLY what this system would achieve. Something that cant be done now. At this point i have to gauge player bets, try to design advanced systems that automatically punish types play AP's employ in order to sustain my credibility. There is a handful of systems that can do that - automate the "punishment" - vast majority still depend on "you breached t&c's so we took your winnings" approach.

    With this kind of rating, you'd know the player'#s "credit history" based on other casino experience that classify them under mutually agreed conditions and you can refuse entry before bets are placed. If it spreads wide enough the only places fraudsters and AP's will be left to play at are rogues and that'll be a funny forum to read.

    not only exposed but just like Affiliate guard dog stamp is given to the accredited programs, casinos will carry a stamp of this system and inform players their "one-check" (mmm?) ID is accepted here.

    It just sounds better and better to me.
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jul 12, 2013
  19. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Not in workforce
    I have absolutely no issue with a database for fraudsters, or even suspected fraudsters. Keep a data base of Advantage Players too if you wish, and share it with your colleagues.

    Ban anyone you like for any reason from your establishment.

    Fraudsters are unlikely to be stopped from claiming NDBs and SUBs, as they have a myriad of identities, or enter misleading information. They are only caught usually at cashout as it is.

    Advantage players do exist. If you took their deposit or GAVE THEM A NDB, pay their legitimate winnings. Bonus ban them afterwards, or even close their accounts. They move on anyway you claim.

    Casinos get to choose the terms of bonuses, not the players. And Advantage Players are legitimate players. So are some low-rollers that may find accounts closed because transactions costs exceed their value to a casino.

    Even with a database, the only way this system will work is if KYC checks are carried out before awarding a NDB or accepting a deposit by a player, systems we are consistently told are unworkable.

    If casinos really want to fight the fraudsters and the advantage players STOP USING AFFILIATES THAT OFFER SUCH STRATEGIES.

    As Enzo of 3Dice said, the only time bonuses are beatable are when players can do better math than the casino.

    As you know, I signed up quite a while ago at Bet-at on a NDB. I found the platform slow and awkward, wouldn't have probably returned even if I had cashed out at that time.

    Your presence here Igor (and another NDB offer) enticed me to try your casino again, and bear through some teething pains with the error codes etc.

    But would I have entered that database back then as an AP? There are a few CM accredited casinos I don't play for various reasons, some of which I have taken a NDB or a SUB at.

    You suggested I low-roll to meet wagering on a promotion in chat the other night. That's beating bonuses 101, and we often see players that try not to lose back a big win by placing more modest bets accused of bonus abuse, and sometimes winnings confiscated, far too often in fact.

    Do you think that rating database you propose is going to get balanced input from casinos where you are a loyal customer? Player Jazzy doesn't cash out when $100 ahead --- knock off 10 points. Player only cashed out once, and never since --- knock off 30 points. Player always reverses if funds are pending for 24 hours --- knock off 20 points.

    Combo that up with real names and addresses, and I can fully expect a fat pile of CDs in my mailbox.

    Oh, and the potential for spam originating from such a list.

    I think I may have changed my mind about that database after all.
    3 people like this.
  20. Jul 12, 2013
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    This is the issue casinos are unwilling to address. Not only are these "bonus beating" sites able to run affiliate accounts, they even get "special deals" from casinos to entice them to send their APs to them. If a casino grants the webmaster of beatingbonuses(dot)com an affiliate account, they KNOW they are going to get a high proportion of APs headed their way, so why do they do it? Worse still, why do they give special codes to a site such as "blackjack guy" that make the SUB more "blackjack friendly". It should be obvious what type of AP a site called blackjackguy(dot)com (for example, but I am pretty sure this is a real affiliate with a similar site somewhere) is going to be sending your way.

    What SHOULD be looked for in an affiliate site is good marketing, but not an overt advertising of how to extract maximum value from the welcome boni.

    The guide on one such site even had the instruction to take the SUB and then "move on to the next prospect" rather than stay loyal.

    These sites do not charge a joining fee, the casinos fund them via the affiliate payments (not all players beat the bonus, so revenue IS generated). They may even use CPA deals so they get paid whether or not players beat the SUB, and don't lose out from players failing to stay loyal.

    If these sites found themselves unable to get affiliate accounts, they would struggle to survive, and may have to start charging membership fees. This would deter casual traffic, and there would be fewer new players lured into becoming "bonus chasers" as a means to make a regular income.

    When I started out, it didn't occur to me that players could make a GUARANTEED profit over time through "bonus hunting", but I soon found out. What put me off that path was the sheer TEDIUM needed to clear a relatively small profit from a given bonus. It was something like playing Blackjack at £1 a hand using a printed "perfect strategy" chart, and entailed several hours of sheer tedium to clear about £30 on average per SUB. This is less than minimum wage!!!!!!

    This "safe as houses" tedium just didn't appeal to me, so I went for more volatility. When I win, it's worth withdrawing, not a miserly £30 after a 12 hour session.
  22. Jul 13, 2013
  23. P.V.

    P.V. Senior Member webmeister

    Make money!
    Turn around...
    I need to take baby steps here because I don't want to sound self promoting, so no site link added.

    Just for clarification we're still active and moving forward. We were approved by the NGCB back in March, then went before the NGC later that month and they requested changes so it went back to the NGCB.

    On July 10th, 2013 we were approved again by the NGCB, will be back in Nevada before the NGC on July 25th, 2013 for hopefully final approval. I'm also filing with N.J..

    One stipulation is I can only deal with licensed U.S. sites only if we reach final approval, that's why I stopped pursuing legal offshore sites a long time ago. Although if you're a player planning on traveling to a licensed U.S. state you can sign up.

    I created what the OP is speaking of, a fraud database where operator members can report fraud taking place on their site which is viewable by all operators along with a search option.

    I also created a one click self exclusion database avoiding the painstaking process of going to multiple sites to totally self exclude, patent pending.

    In addition someone mentioned a player rating system, well I did that too. If you use the same doc's, keep them stored within your account it will show how many sites have approved your ID doc's etc..

    A centralized system can work but one misconception about what I created is that I don't verify doc's but rather provide a Website system, with multiple functions.

    Within the U.S. legal market the following must occur.

    ".com is a website designed to facilitate the secure transmission of confidential documents between an Internet gaming patron and an Internet gaming website. The verification of the validity of such documents is on the burden of the Internet gaming website since the wagering account is established through the licensed provider. .com does not offer verification services, but merely serves as a conduit for secure document supply."

    So for clarification I'm still in the mix but U.S. only per gaming regulations, no pity yet! :)
    6 people like this.
  24. Jul 14, 2013
  25. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    They may have a myraid of identities but they are always caught via similarity focal points. Those can be brought forward as well as the identities they use which are usually forged. At the point of withdrawal their true identity is however uncovered and while closing the account is great for that operator, naming and shaming the culprit with others achieves a more efficient firewall and a much narrower circle within which identity fraudsters can operate.

    1) lets not mix the two (low dep customer and AP) and 2) to refer to your NDB example with your account - non dep player that took an NDB wont be classified as AP, that would be ludicrous - however a player that takes a sub and then proceeds to wager 10,000 by playing Red and black together on a table, without ever having a chance of winning with sole purpose of grinding the free token out IS. Those i do classify and all their details and store them for later reference, if there is ever need. There is a vast difference between a customer that hasn't been converted and a customer that CLEARLY isn't in it for the pleasure of gambling.

    exactly what this system would achieve. Insert your playerverify.com (well done mate btw) ID at registration and get green lights throughout. Most probably over time T&C's will come in place which state for PV certified customers - these terms are not valid giving you a MORE liberal experience since we feel safer with you.

    doesn't really happen - small timers cant afford to waster their precious volume on this and big guys that may have it working have it because they are too big to control their resource. NO-ONE wants those type of players except casinos that are already rogue in their practices. Let this sentence also serve to contradict VWM outlandish generalisation that is very possibly backed by little or no factual knowledge in regards to "deals" between bonus abuse affs and casinos. We're talking here on the premise of accredited businesses not rogues and as such you cannot mix the business practices of the two.

    Yes roulette math completely works even when covering the entire table in roulette, 10 on every number - its actually allowed with a number of games and it shows up as a bet-push stream of transactions. It still grinds the bonus down. Again, we're not talking about betfair happy hour oulandish x10 deposit promotions that honest players just simply benefited from because some marketing exec was asleep. I'm talking about full blown PEV calcs with downright obvious play and its aim. IN example above which player in their right mind will place bets what cannot yield a win? We cant generalise here as its very easy blur the lines.

    No, nad after our long conversations on the site chat and here you'd know that moral fiber streaming through some operators differs from the others. That includes bonuses, their structure, their features etc, however it also includes operator approach toward their own T&C's and players. Again, i think we are missing the point of WHOM this list is for. The list needs to be composed with accountability, credibility and transparency in mind. Ratings of various classifications need to be voted on and approved before they are integrated into the system:

    You really need to look at this as an inverted PAB. Would max allow you to be declared an AP because you two two NDB's without T&C's being explicit on having a limit of 1? No. Well the same premise goes here.

    It was a promotion that was maximising cashback that i suggest that - and frankly low-rolling on bonuses is NOT AP. Another prominent CM member actually just won quite a hefty sum - i cant disclose his gameplay but he in fact BREACHED one of my terms which states that the bet cant drop below 50% of the winning bet. I would however be ab-so-lu-tely boinkers if i were to enforce that terms on his bet size. That term protects me from some syndication that comes in in hordes, takes the SUB(s) and hits 20-30-50e spins and THEN drops their hand value to 30c. Pushing that term onto what is obviously a slot lover that loves different bets on different slots isn't morally sound, just like playing with cashing a bonus out as 100% goal isn't either.

    Massive difference. If your bet size in naturally 90p-5e then thats all well and good. but if you take your hand up to 50e when using bonus funds and 50p after you win or when using real funds - well sorry, its our prerogative to stop that kind of behaviour.

    That is why i told you to low-roll, you don't deviate from what you naturally play because you aren't trying to maximise on bonus only - you are trying to have a good time and enjoy the thrill when you DO come out on top. However, you let the game decide that, not cold hard mathematics based on the size and value of the freebie given.
    One of my first examples was to ensure data is exchanged on fraudsters only and to ensure that it would have to be submitted on account closure. I see your reservation, but it would be irresponsible to share player loayalties. This isn't an attempt to create a casino network, this is an attempt to create an anti-fraud environment that is much harder to penetrate than currently, with casinos in isolation.

    I wish I could not comment you distrustful goof :D It's not all cloak and dagger and conspiracies. Some people are just trying to make an honest living by:

    1. getting the right player (definition: wouldn't mind playing for real for the sake of playing, but will welcome a bonus if its fair and does not hurt his/her odds or tie them up. doesn't change gamplay drastically because bonus is in play. Doesn't ONLY go for the bonus and throws a rant when there isn't one.)

    2. eliminating the wrong player (Definition: what above is not. Player that will ONLY go for a bonus and will play with absolute aim to maximise that bonus. They aren't interested in the games, how they play, how much fun they are, or casino in general, they are in it for the best possible profit form this opportunity. Similarly to insider trading stock brokers ;) - just in it for the dough no matter the rules of the game. until legislation was written to manage them, they had free reign - legislators needed to learn FROM their behaviours to create laws to manage them)

    3. Give the player 1 a superior experience and make them your number 1 place: game selections, right loyalty, etc. Now this is where it gets tricky, more money saved on player 2, means easier and more loyal player 1 experience.

    It really isn't all about "deals" and "casinos promoting AP to purposely do this and that". If you want to discuss rogue pit behaviour we can, but lets separate the two.

    No, no pity at all. I :notworthy instead. It did not seem to move for a long time in any direction so i just assumed, wrongly. I hope it kicks off and i hope you put right safeguards in place to not let it skew in a wrong direction. really well done and as soon as you establish a European base... Well, as the say

    "What has two thumbs and is keen to be a client?"

    :thumbsup:This guy:thumbsup:
  26. Jul 15, 2013
  27. catapultaudio

    catapultaudio Senior Member

    Computer Programmer
    Leeds, UK
    VWM, I know this might not be the most relevant place to mention this but I notice you forever getting a hammering on here for your opinions on the KYC issue, I just wanted to say I'm one of those '29 people' who do appreciate your POV and could really do with a solution, so thanks :) - My passport is currently expired and my budget is simply wafer thin right now, as it is for a lot of people I suspect - getting a passport would require a months gambling budget for me right now, and I cannot renew my driving license as it is currently suspended on medical grounds, so I have to choose where I play very carefully for the time being ...

    Maybe I will use some winnings to acquire a passport in the future but on the rare occassion I do win, who wants to spend it on a way of getting paid the next time it comes around rather than a treat of some kind ...? ...

    I do however realise I might well be in a minority, and respect the opinions of others on the subject too - maybe with finances this low I shouldn't even be gambling at all I guess...
    1 person likes this.
  28. Jul 15, 2013
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    This illustrates my point well. In the UK, the Drivers License is the ONLY internal document that is widely used to proxy for a National ID card. Your problem is that in order to be "financially included", you would have to lie to DVLA to keep the license, but use your own morals to not actually drive on it. Many elderly people have the same problem, and this is a significant part of the population, not just "28 people". Groups representing the elderly have been putting pressure on UK banks, regulators, and government to do something about it, but only recently has the government shown a fear of pissing off the pensioner. The recent changes to benefits all have one thing in common, "this change does not affect pensioners".

    The "grey vote" is now powerful enough to change the outcome of elections, so of course the politicians are scared. However, very few pensioners are comfortable with the Internet, but as this industry matures, we will see players like myself start collecting the state pension, and even having to give up our drivers licenses.

    As for this:-

    I expect you will be told "If you can't even afford to renew your passport, you shouldn't be gambling anyway".

    Maybe the industry does think this, because players with such low budgets don't make enough profit, and their loss will hardly make a difference.

    Putting pressure on businesses is just one part of the attack, pressure needs to be put on government to ensure that people are routinely issued with the documents needed to pass KYC checks. This can be done either by issuing new documents, altering the criteria for current ones (such as allowing for an "ID only" version of the driving license), or changing the criteria for KYC checking, and agreeing it at the EU level.

    If you are able to pass KYC for a bank account, you should be able to pass KYC for a casino without having to get additional documentation, as it's the SAME set of regulations.

    I will have to take a look to see whether there is a means to raise these issues with the UK government without just being fobbed off. I suspect an interest group, such as one representing pensioners or disadvantaged areas, would have a better chance of getting some action than an individual.
    1 person likes this.
  30. Jul 15, 2013
  31. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member


    Wow! Sometimes you really let it fly off the handle don't you? The 'industry' thinks this because gambling is leisure that has a dark side to it and if you can't afford to do something as cheap as renew a passport I'd suggest you don't gamble, as much as I'd suggest you don't spend your last fiver on a pack of cigs, and not because your revenue is not significant.

    You've been around enough and heard enough of reps to must know that some statements you make are outright outlandish.
    2 people like this.
  32. Jul 15, 2013
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Outlandish, but casinos have actually ADMITTED this is how they feel about what they call "negative value accounts". There are also some posters here that believe players who can't afford to spend £100 on a passport should not be gambling anyway.

    There was quite a furore a while back where casinos were shutting the accounts of "negative value players". The players had done nothing wrong, no AP, didn't even take boni, but what they DID have in common was that they made regular small deposits, and got plenty of playing time for very little outlay. Despite mostly losing, the casinos argued that the money lost didn't even cover their overheads on those accounts, so they had a clear out and shut them down. They hid behind the "right to refuse admission", but the explanation was wrung out of them in the end.

    These were not just the rogues either, there were a couple of then accredited casinos involved. Purple Lounge was one such accredited casinos that barred a number of "negative value players", even though they were losing money overall to the casino. Despite their indignation at the time, it turned out they had a lucky escape.
  34. Jul 15, 2013
  35. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Last time I checked, online casinos were not community services I.e.they have a right to decide who they do and don't want as customers.

    You often make it sound like it is a human right to be accepted as a player by online casinos. It is not.

    You also talk as if the upcoming UK gaming laws are going to somehow force operators to treat all players equally and change their business model to cater for those 28 people who can afford to gamble regularly but can't afford to GET photo ID.

    I'll issue a challenge to you VWM. Find and quote all cases here at CM where UK players remain unpaid because they cannot prove their identity. Have fun.

    See, in the cases I've seen, even though there may have been an issue initially, the issue was RESOLVED.....so all this whole UK ID thing really amounts to a DELAY for those affected. Frankly, if these players won't obtain photo ID, then they have to put up with a delay.....I don't see how that is in any way unreasonable.

    Bottom line....it is NOT costing UK players their winnings. It is a NON ISSUE. The exceptions would be rogue operators, who were not going to pay anyway and used the ID thing as a convenient excuse.

    I can't believe how much forum space has been wasted on something that isn't causing anything other than a minor delay at reputable casinos.
  36. Jul 15, 2013
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Here are some examples.

    1) Negative Value players


    2) Bad traffic due to allowing "bonus beating" sites to operate as affiliates.


    The casino marketing team only had to check out the URL for this problem to have been "bleedin' obvious" long before it became an issue. Even when the rep had to come out in public, they first tried changing their back end systems rather than terminating this "bad" affiliate's account.

    There are many affiliates like this, and casinos often seem "asleep at the wheel", and thus get their ass bitten by large hordes of "bonus seekers". I have visited such sites, and they give a step by step guide to beating the bonus they are advertising.

    Downfall of one of the finest accredited groups.

    They were going bust, and went bust, but they were held in such high esteem that many were in denial, and those that suggested this was a case of a casino group going bust were initially derided. About a third of the way through though, the truth started to come out.

    Plenty of deliberate disinformation right from the top of the group in question, and this meant that they were still able to lure players into depositing despite lacking the assets to pay the winners.

    The claim was that they had been hammered by large groups of "fraudsters", but it turned out this was an exaggeration. The "audit" appears to have been nothing more than a stalling tactic giving them justification for freezing payouts for an unspecified period of time.

    It goes on, and has happened again since, and these were not rogue operators, but well regarded ones.

    (It's a long thread).


    4) The danger of incorrect information being stored and shared in a central database with no proper right to have incorrect data removed or corrected.

    2 people like this.
  38. Jul 15, 2013
  39. incrediblestuff

    incrediblestuff SearchingForTheHolyGrail! CAG webmeister

    Currently: Self employed, Previously: Manager
    Mostly the Netherlands

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