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Major Absolute Poker Issue

Discussion in 'Online Poker Discussions' started by SeattleSinner, Sep 14, 2007.

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    Sep 14, 2007
  1. SeattleSinner

    SeattleSinner Dormant account PABnononaccred2

    Occupation:
    Professional Gambler
    Location:
    USA
    I was just reading in the 2+2 forums that many players who play graycat, steamroller, and doubledrag on Absolute Poker have been noticing some weird activity which may even involve seeing opponents cards. Here is a link to the thread which you may want to check out:You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    5 people like this.
  2. Sep 14, 2007
  3. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Thanks for the link. I've never trusted the high limits there, never could put a finger on why. I wonder if this is why Calvinhobbes got raped so bad after the BBJ win. FWIW I have Steamroller as a massive loser in my PT although it is at much lower limits.
     
  4. Sep 15, 2007
  5. The Ronin

    The Ronin Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Semi-pro poker player.
    Location:
    Back East
    If the allegations are true, this could set the poker industry back 10 yrs.

    It appears to be some rich folks playing loose, and some well seasoned pros, getting pissed because they are losing, when in their minds they should be getting rich from the high stakes donkeys. You can data mine almost any poker player, and come up with scenarios exhibiting peculiar activity. And if that peculiar activity results in an amazing win, or perfectly timed fold, well you could interpret the action as cheating, or worse I.E. a hack able to see your hole cards.

    You can't have it both ways. You can't jump on a jaded newbie who posts that all poker rooms are "rigged" and assure him he is just a donkey, the poker rooms are safe. Then buy into the "pros" who play $150-$300 Limit, when they say it is rigged, and the opponents can see their hole cards.

    I read the entire thread at 2+2, and am not convinced that the players can see the hole cards. Possibly could be the same person, playing 2 seats. Possibly.

    Just my opinion of course :thumbsup:
     
  6. Sep 15, 2007
  7. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The obvious HU chip dumping is the biggest concern. It would lead one to believe there was a team or fraudulant money on the site. I'm not convinced either, especially since one of the players mentioned is a massive loser in my PT database. I always felt there were some odd things in their higher stakes games though but not to the extreme being discussed.
     
  8. Sep 16, 2007
  9. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I have seen damning evidence that convinces me AP has been using house players or have rogue software developers that have left a back door to exploit. I strongly advise all to run from AP as fast as you can. This evidence has been slowly coming public all day.
     
  10. Sep 16, 2007
  11. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    I have one session that was impossible to explain, lottery odds dont go that far.

    I have tracked a crazy winning tourney player, who cleaned up for a week only to find out he wasnt registered.

    Both cases at the same site, a reputable site. I was banned for sending in hand records to be checked.

    In general it is fine, I have sat next to colluders & have generally spotted them, this is a totally different thing & this thing can only come from inhouse.
     
  12. Sep 16, 2007
  13. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    The biggest worry for any live player is that on the internet, someone, somwhere can see your hole cards. Hell I advertise sites. Its crushing if it is true with a big site.

    I did an investigation over the hole card thing a while back

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Now the only way this could happen if it is inhouse or someone screwing with his group of high stakes friends PC's
     
  14. Sep 16, 2007
  15. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The orignal thread has been locked into the mod forum while 2+2 decided what to do. It has mind boggling evidence that will come out shortly such as the players involved never called on the river, they either folded or raised. They also had impossible W$@SD stats. Here is a link to another thread at 2+2 that has popped up from a different set of mods that felt the need to make this public and keep it public.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Sep 16, 2007
  17. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    Iv gotta say a lotta the hands are above my head, as in loose. But a lot seemed a little too clear. Hearing Shneids talking (was he not the youngest ever aussie millions winner?) he was very too the point on a few things & they made sense.

    What I get from the old thread is that someone has done something but they never waited for a real experienced player to cover their tracks
     
  18. Sep 16, 2007
  19. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Serious Accusations Against Absolute Poker

    This has been getting talked about a little in "Poker Complaints" here but IMO this is far more serious and needed attention since I'm sure most or at least many here don't read that forum.

    At 2+2 there is a lengthy thread discussing how there are obvious player cheats playing the highest stakes at AP.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Many believe these cheats are Absolute Poker insiders. At the very least the cheating has been going on either undetected or endorsed by AP. The estimates of the money stolen by the cheats run anywhere from $300,000-$700,000.

    This is a very serious issue. This is not an "Online poker is rigged" thread. This thread is serious. People have been caught obviously cheating and are either AP employees or AP's security is so bad it took players to bring proof public because AP ignored the many emails about the players. There is ample prof in the above thread that there is cheating.

    The accusations are that these players can see all player's hole cards. The many hand histories collected show the cheats have an infinite or almost infinite aggression factor, especially on the river. This means they never or almost never call or check on the river, they either bet, fold or raise. This is the most signifigant piece of evidence. Since there are no more cards to draw for at the river the player that can see hole cards would know whether he can win or not and whether he can knock off the other player on an overbet bluff. It is also important to mention that the reason the AF might not be infinite in some player's Poker Tracker's is because if a player pushed all in then the cheat could only call.

    The cheats have never lost a river bet either. They also flop almost every hand unless a big pocket pair raises big preflop. Hand after hand that has been compiled shows that the cheats almost never put money in from behind and almost never called anything. They would either bet, raise or fold.

    A few devil advocate's state this player could be on a super hot run. The problem is that the stats are simply impossible. On top of that these players have been seen doing some shady things in heads up games among themselves.

    Read the thread for yourself and form your own opinion. If you are not familiar with Poker Tracker and poker terms you may get lost in the talk. This is why I tried to explain some of it here.

    I've been very hard on Absolute Poker this year. They have been very dishonest this year with players and affiliates alike. They have also been on a sick spam campaign. Before this incident Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet (AP owns them) have destroyed their reputation in the industry. That is part of what makes them being involved so much more believable.

    This story broke midweek and to this point Absolute Poker has ignored the endless emails from players asking for comments. Also AP has spammed 2+2 endlessly this year but to this point has not bothered to reply in the thread to at least try to save some face here.

    Although it is obvious to virtually everybody these players were cheats the question remains how involved Absolute Poker is. Were the players employees/management or is the security at AP so bad they could not catch players stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of months, even when players constantly notified them something was wrong? Either way this could destroy Absolute Poker. It is likely to be covered by some if not all poker print media.

    With my very negative feelings towards Absolue Poker over their past dishonesty I have tried to keep my opinion out of the above but I will say that I agree with the many players that feel AP is in on this. They have been so dishonest this year it is hard to think they would not do such a thing, especially since they have ignored player emails about it. Even if it is a security breach shame on them for letting it go on for so long. They have tarnished the reputation of the entire industry and maybe destroyed their business.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Sep 16, 2007
  21. Swede

    Swede Hell is only a word PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Auctioneer
    Location:
    Anaon
    I just finished reading the whole thread, it's getting a bit big. Isn't it possible these numbers could be even higher?
     
  22. Sep 16, 2007
  23. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Certainly, the amount stolen will be almost impossible to figure out. Adanthar is trying to gather all possible hand histories to figure out how much has been stolen. The real question is what AP will do. The players deserve their money back and every day AP hides is one more day of losing what little is left of their reputation. If it turns out AP's security is terrible then maybe they can seize some or most of these funds and redistribute them. If it turns out that Absolute Poker has been stealing then there is no telling what might happen. Who know, if they have been involved in this then they could close shop and run off with all the money. Regardless I can't think of a worse place to put your bankroll right now.

    It's ironic that AP was pushing their 9% interest for Elite VIP's trying to attract the type of player that would have been taken in this scam. Many were very skeptical about that offer, now many wonder including myself if that was a way to get people into these cheating games.
     
  24. Sep 16, 2007
  25. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The original thread got too big and got locked so here are some good cliff notes and the new thread.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  26. Sep 17, 2007
  27. lots0

    lots0 Banned User - troll posts - flaming PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    I do nothing productive
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    There is NO PROOF, only accusations.

    The idea of a AP 'super user' account with access to their opponents hole cards, that is approved by AP management seems to me a lot like an idea that someone on crack would think up...

    I think what some are calling "proof" is outrageous... a couple of play by play hands posted on forum (by who?) and it is now incontrovertibly proof? Come on...

    Let me ask you all one question:
    Why would AP Management allow this kind of thing to go on when as soon as it was discovered (and proven) it would all be over for AP, they would be out of business? Why would AP risk it all so one or two players (or even ten or twenty) can score big at the higher limit games??? Why risk millions and millions and millions a year in profits so a few players can make a few hundred thousand???

    Now if the theory was that AP's software could be cracked by a team of hackers from Albania, that might be more believable, but only a little more...

    pokeraddict, I don't understand, In previous threads where you trashed AP you said you had not played at Absolute Poker in years and years... So what's your beef with AP this month? Didn't you say last month AP was cheating on the rakes? or was that the month before that or the month before that??
     
  28. Sep 17, 2007
  29. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    I know I don't stay abreast of all things Poker, but... I'm having a very strong feeling of deja vu ... Wasn't this same sort of suspicion/conclusion/accusation discussed at length at that forum a couple of months ago -- but with another poker room as the subject of concern? If so, whatever became of that?
     
  30. Sep 17, 2007
  31. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    If by reading the endless hh's and seeing the PT screenshots with his infinite AF and his and other's impossible stats you are not a believer then I do not think you understand how to read hh's and Poker Tracker.

    This is not a vendetta by any means. This is a VERY VERY serious problem that AP still has yet to address and has had ample time to do so. The PT screenshots are proof, if that is not convincing those accounts are cheats I can't think of what you would need to believe it. My guess is that you have never used PT and don't understand things like AF and that a 94/72 with overall AF of over 10 is never going to produce like that even over the smallest of samples. Also how did these players never lose a river after only raising, betting or folding?

    My problems with AP dates back about a year. AP has cheated players on pending bonuses by changing terms while player cleared them, cheated affiliates on payments by changing agreements already entered into and cheated players on rakeback. On top of that they have been on a massive spam/shill campaign at a forum I moderate. Add to this the endless changes to the BBJ that affect players that have already contributed and you already have what I feel is a shady poker room. None of these have anything to do with posting a link to the thread at 2+2 with damning evidence that players are cheating at AP and that AP is either involved or has let it go on. They have also ignored many emails from players both before and after this came out about these players. You will see that I do not just take cheap shots at AP. Even in this forum you will see me help players with small problems with AP and even defend them to some extent. AP is mentioned all the time in a forum I moderate and I never trash them there either.

    If you want to ignore the fact that a player cannot have an infinite AF in a fair game or that a player cannot win 30BB/100 while playing 94/72 and winning almost 100% at the showdown then that is your choice. Also the cheating accounts are 300ptbb/100 in $2000 NL with almost identical stats.

    What is so funny is that one of the accounts just dumped $27,000 in 10/20 NL in what is a classic chip dump. In one hand he called an allin with an unmatched 34.

    Whether you believe this or not I would have posted this no matter what poker room it was. The fact it involves a poker room I've called out many times for being shady really only proves I've been right about them all along doesn't it? Keep in mind I was not the first to post about it here or any other public forum (there is a small private forum I let other members know). This is a very important industry development, not just some gossip. IMO and virtually every other poker player's opinion the stats these players show in PT are impossible in a fair game and AP is at the very least incompetent and likely much worse IMO. If you don't believe there is cheating going after all the evidence posted in all those 2+2 threads then I don't think anything will ever convince you. That's the great thing about places like this, we can all speak our mind and draw our own conclusions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
    1 person likes this.
  32. Sep 17, 2007
  33. Zoozie

    Zoozie Ueber Meister CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Software Developer
    Location:
    Denmark
    I have read the whole thread. Unless the PT screenshots are fake which I doubt since they come from several known pro's - there is no shadow of doubt that rigged games is happening. Not just slightly rigged, but rigged so bad it is too obvious, which is hard to explain why they would cheat this much.

    Noone can be 'crushing' the game at that impossible BB/100 hand rate with those PT stats.(or even with 'normal' PT stats) The 3 players (or same with different aliases) has been doing that both against the best FL players and NL players.

    The outcome of this thread will be interesting and it seems the 2+2 forum administration (poker guru's) will look into it. It will either the be greatest hoax or poker disaster in many years.
     
    2 people like this.
  34. Sep 17, 2007
  35. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I've asked Absolute Poker to respond to this thread. Hopefully they will
     
    3 people like this.
  36. Sep 17, 2007
  37. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas

    For 5 days or so AP has been nagged to respond and has not. One of the suspect accounts was even playing tonight dumping insane amount of chips. One hand he called an unimproved 34 for $1700. The 34 was the worst or second worst possible hand. There were many other oddities not consistant with the player's stats. People were outing him at the table for being a cheat too. It was one of the oddest things I've seen in online poker. He dumped tens of thousands of dollars seemingly intent on dumping his stacks.

    Whatever the deal is they are nuts for not locking this account or at least renaming him if they really feel nothing is wrong. To have one of these accused accounts playing with the overwhelming evidence against them leaves most of the poker community scratching its heads. This is of course a very hot topic on most poker fora. It's not going away any time soon.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Sep 17, 2007
  39. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    AP's style is to sweep things under the carpet. On this occasion however, I cannot see how they can respond. I dont buy into the idea that an outsider hacked into the system. AP would have flagged these accounts well before now. I cant imagine their high stakes players sticking around either way.

    They really need to be investigated. I had question marks over them for other issues but this could kill online poker quicker than any gambling bill.

    Mud sticks but this seems to be more than just a rumor. Ive heard all the rigged stories before and they can usually be explained away, but this?
     
    1 person likes this.
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