Absolute Poker is absolutely rigged. (New evidence, near certain proof its rigged).

[winbig]

Newb to the site here and happy to have found this site.

In light of all the goings on at AP, do people think users should avoid the Blackjack section of AP as well?

I never trusted AP's blackjack even before this all started. I've never had so much bad (sic) luck there, and by observing other people at the same tables, I would say the same applied to them.

 

[pokeraddict]

I never trusted AP's blackjack even before this all started. I've never had so much bad (sic) luck there, and by observing other people at the same tables, I would say the same applied to them.

I have several accounts that randomly get $10 put into it as a come back bonus. Every time I go to BJ and virtually every time I lose 10 $1 bets in 15-20 hands. Of course the risk of ruin is very high but the fact it is a constant loss is very sketchy. I have no scientific evidence of course but if I was going to deposit somewhere to play BJ it sure wouldn't be there or Ultimate Bet and that was before they were proven to be thieves.

 

[lots0]

In light of all the goings on at AP, do people think users should avoid the Blackjack section of AP as well?

Cheaters are Cheaters... no matter what game their playing.

 

[same_old]

I might be wrong, but didn't Jetset post something here regarding a 6th of December report to come out from ther owners of the place..??

 

[jetset]

You're right - the date referred to the finalisation of the report by Gaming Associates and its submission to KGC, which would then consider its public dissemination through "selected" media.

I imagine "selected" would include 911, which seemed to be the Absolute Poker media of choice when the owners of the online poker operation were in full damage control mode.

After a brief suspension, 911 started promoting Absolute again and was criticised for not at least awaiting the publication of the GA report.

 

[Mousey]

Good grief... have they not released anything regarding their findings yet?? AP wouldn't shut up after they decided the cat was out of the bag, and once they decided they needed a serious audit, they won't start talking.

 

[pokeraddict]

It makes me think they found massive amounts of cheating never uncovered and don't want it out.

 

[lots0]

It makes me think they found massive amounts of cheating never uncovered and don't want it out.

I was thinking the same thing.

Absolute Poker are outright criminals, they should have all their goodies taken away and ALL OF THEM thrown in Jail. But the Canadian authorities are about as effective in this matter as tits on boar hog.

Outfits like 911 and CAP that still promote these criminals at Absolute Poker are just as dirty and criminal as Absolute Poker is in my opinion.

This is the kind of thing that will stop Poker from becoming fully and completly legal and above board in the USA.

The law makers are already looking at this and saying... "What a bunch of criminals, we need to outlaw online poker..."

And not just that, but this whole thing is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth for online poker.... and I LOVE playing poker.

Absolute Poker... The True Criminals of Online Poker.

 

[jetset]

This doesn't look good - surely the Gaming Associates report is to hand by now, and imo both the KGC and AP have an obligation to the playing public and the industry to release the results of the investigation and what steps have been taken and are yet to be taken to address the issues raised.

Are the perpetrators of this massive fraud to be allowed to go unpunished is another valid question that needs to be answered here.

So far I have seen nothing further on the AP-favoured poker information sites that were so extensively used when AP was trying to control the damage wrought by these damning incidents.

 

[pokeraddict]

So far I have seen nothing further on Gambling911

Sorry couldn't resist.

They still have no problem promoting them or UB though. For a site that wants to be taken so seriously they really have a strange way of showing it.

 

[lots0]

If you promote a thief to innocent unknowing people, are you a thief?

I think so.

 

[chuchu59]

An accomplice at least.

 

[KellyBlend]

Update: Absolute Poker active and ongoing investigation

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission has received a report from Gaming Associates which it is now in the process of reviewing. The Commission hopes to complete its review and render a decision in this matter within the next two weeks.

Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
12 December, 2007

......

 

[wangpoker]

Gambling911 is low and mean.
Give it money, it'll promote any rogue.

 

[malleeboy]

All online Poker sites are suspicious

I think Absolute are starting to awaken to how serious this crisis really is - the following is a new general press statement issued by the company:

QUOTE:

Absolute Poker Management wishes to inform the poker community of the following information in response to the most recent claims posted over the past 48 hours on the 2+2 and Pocket Fives forums wherein again it is alleged that some person or persons breached Absolute Pokers redundant and varying levels of game client security. As was stated in Absolute Pokers Official Response released on Friday October 12, 2007, Absolute Poker conducted an extensive investigation in response to the claims it was made aware of and received. The results of that investigation indicated that to the best of Absolute Pokers knowledge, information and belief there was no security breach. Specifically, Absolute Pokers internal investigation determined that it is impossible for any person, device, program, script or other means to see hole cards.

Based on the most recent claims that Absolute Poker has been made aware of and at the request of some of our players and business partners, Absolute Poker has agreed to retain a widely acclaimed independent third party auditor, Gaming Associates, to conduct an independent audit of Absolute Pokers security systems. Specifically, Absolute Poker has requested that Gaming Associates conduct a thorough and extensive review of Absolute Pokers practices and security systems to determine whether it is possible for any person, device, program, script or other means to see hole cards thereby gaining an unfair advantage. (

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)

Absolute Poker has agreed to fully cooperate with Gaming Associates and its investigative team and to provide the above with unfettered access to all systems, protocols and databases at Absolute Poker worldwide. Absolute Poker has also agreed to allow Gaming Associates final report to be made available to Pocket Fives and Bluff Media for their review.

With respect to the claims that Scott Tom, a former Member of Team Absolute Poker, is in anyway involved in wrong-doing, Absolute Poker has requested a formal investigation into that matter as well. Mr. Tom has not been involved with Absolute Poker for over a year and to the best of our knowledge, information and belief has not had access to any of Absolute Pokers systems, databases or information.

Absolute Poker reserves the right to pursue any and all remedies whether in law or equitable which may procure to it as a result of any unlawful and injurious actions taken by any individuals who may have falsified any information, documents, files, or have by other means attempted to disparage and/or harm Absolute Poker, its Players, its current or former management, employees, business partners or affiliates.

Absolute Poker shall bear all expenses related to such investigation and is eager to learn about Gaming Associates findings. Absolute Poker highly values and intends to protect its players, shareholders, business partners, and affiliates.

Absolute Poker Management UNQUOTE

Having played live poker since 1974, I was curious about online poker.

However, after my very first hand, I knew something was not right about the so called randomness. As I played more and more - particularly tournaments (freerolls and cash), I was astonished to see the incredible suckouts and badbeats. Of course, these happen occasionally in live poker, but to the extent they do online is not only incredibly unbelievable but statistically impossible.
When I see three players all having pockets and then all getting trips on the flop, I can only shake my head. When I see someone with big pockets(having flopped trips) going allin against someone who has less chips - and no flush draw, and then to see runner runner flush is amazing not withstanding almost impossible, is just laughable.

When I see how big chippers seem to get the cards time and time again, you have to wonder what is the real motive. When I see big chippers with absolutely nothing being able to buy their cards due to their betting patterns, you have to ask the question.

When I see AA getting beat time after time, I shake my head in disbelief.

When I often can predict the outcome of an allin situation, after the flop, I start to really worry.

This is my theory:

Online poker is about money. How then, do they extract the maximum amount of rakes per hour? Simple, manipulate the software to ensure that action is applied to every game. This means that games (including tournaments) are completed as quickly as possible. More games per hour , more rakes etc.

 

[pokeraddict]

The AP mess has nothing to do with so called "action" cards. No room has ever been caught doing what you suggest. The reason you see what you think are rigged cards is because you're playing 3x the hands an hour then live. Also if you're playing freerolls you are not playing many people that are good or care so you're going to see even more bad beats.

 

[Mousey]

So.... I guess because it's the holidays AP and the auditors just lay all this pesky business aside till they get good and ready to release the results? Do we need auditors to audit the auditors?

 

[pokeraddict]

Gambling911 is low and mean.
Give it money, it'll promote any rogue.

Correct, the entire Sportsbook.com family are rogues but G911 happily promotes them knowing damn well that group has stolen well into the 6 figures from players in their short time in the industry. That's just the amount reported to SBR by scammed players, there are certainly more.

 

[KellyBlend]

... No room has ever been caught doing what you suggest. ...

There is no credible evidence that major online poker sites are rigged, or have any security holes. Although this thesis is true, there is also no plausible proof of the contrary view. Has anyone of the more experienced posters in this forum ever seen an independent expert certificate about the used Poker-RNGs of a poker side which clearly states that the random figures of a poker side are in order? If yes, please post a link, I want to read it.

 

[GaryWatson]

There is no credible evidence that major online poker sites are rigged, or have any security holes. Although this thesis is true, there is also no plausible proof of the contrary view. Has anyone of the more experienced posters in this forum ever seen an independent expert certificate about the used Poker-RNGs of a poker side which clearly states that the random figures of a poker side are in order? If yes, please post a link, I want to read it.

When the sites make their money off a set rake, regardless i dont see any point in rigging hands. Sure their is an argument for loading big hands against each other for action but the rake usually maxes out anyway so a mega hand makes no difference.

I think the AP issue showed overwhelming proof that there was a security flaw. So much so they had to come out and publicly admit it

 

[ThodorisK]

Malleboy, they dont manipulate it in order to generate more action, but in order that nobody wins. The rake is not enough for them. They want it all.

 

[lots0]

SECURITY FLAW???

There was no security flaw at Absolute Poker, it was a scam, a ripoff, a swindle.

When the company (in this case Absolute Poker) sets up super user player accounts that can see the hole cards of their opponents and only gives access to these super user accounts to executives of Absolute Poker.... Don't forget that the superuser was playing and winning(stealing) money from innocent POKER PLAYERS

That is NOT a SECURITY FLAW.... It is THEFT.

Pure and simple theft.

However, because Absolute Poker is owned by a Mohawk Indian and former 'hero' of Canada... they are allowed to steal money from poker players without getting into any legal trouble at all.

If you play at Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet you are a fool, because you have been told they are thieves and presented with the evidence that proves their thievery.

 

[GaryWatson]

SECURITY FLAW???

There was no security flaw at Absolute Poker, it was a scam, a ripoff, a swindle.

No arguments here

 

[pokeraddict]

If you play at Absolute Poker or Ultimate Bet you are a fool, because you have been told they are thieves and presented with the evidence that proves their thievery.

This pretty much sums it up. I have no sympathy for people who play there and get screwed. Examples since this are the disconnections where people lost tourney buyins or the bonus changing in the middle of players clearing it.

This group proves they have no concern for running a legit business.

 

[KellyBlend]

The most important lesson I have learned from this Absolute Poker case is inter alia the following perception:

a) the KGC is considered as a joke. (I did not know this before)
b) obviously no Kahnawake poker side is controlled by the Kahawake gaming commission properly

This means imho, they can do what they want, as long as no outsider is able to proof wrongdoing. Isn't this assessment part of the true story? Please correct me, if I misunderstood something. And please understand why I use this assessment for further logical conclusions. Why should I as a poker player put my money in jeopardy if nobody can confirm me black on white that the online poker side I want to play uses properly generated and audited random figures?

 

[GaryWatson]

I was just reading through some old comments from here

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It is also worth noting–since Absolute’s latest reply has been posted–who is doing the auditing.

From Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
“Absolute Poker and this website is solely owned and operated by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, Route 138, Kahnawake, Quebec J0L 1B0. Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG is owned by a Mohawk of Kahnawake, and is operated from the sovereign nation of the Mohawks of Kahnawake, located near Montreal Quebec. The Mohawks of Kahnawake have an aboriginal right to conduct online gaming that is recognized and protected by the Canadian Constitution.

Absolute Poker is licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission that enforces regulations designed to ensure, amongst other goals, that: (1) only suitable persons/entities operate within Kahnawake; (2) all games offered are fair to the player; and (3) all winners are paid.”

 

[ThodorisK]

What does that mean? That online casinos are legal and government regulated in Canada? If so, why then doesnt any of these rich cheated players take Absolute to court?

 

[GaryWatson]

What does that mean? That online casinos are legal and government regulated in Canada? If so, why then doesnt any of these rich cheated players take Absolute to court?

Would you take yourself to court?


If anyones not see it yet, here's some cheating illustrated on video

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[KellyBlend]

I have seen this video. I have also read most of the threads and posts about this subject and figured how difficult it is to prove the wrongdoing with statistical calculations.

The whole gaming industry shifts the burden of proof to the single player who is not able to check the correctness of the random figures and the reliability of the used software etc. Therefore I ask and request the whole gaming industry to change their thinking about this problem.

Any Gaming Commission should provide for every player who is interested in it the following publicly accessible information:

a) when the last audit of a poker site has taken place
b) which institution has carried out this audit
c) what the result of this audit was
d) what the scope of this audit was, when and where the audit was carried out
e) whether the audit was based on generally accepted audit principles and
f) where the player can find and read the whole audit report

 

[Self Made]

No one actually believes Kahnawake or some Indian chief up their owns Absolute. It's just a front for the real owners, presumably mostly Scott Tom.

Kahnawake is a semi-autonomous Indian reservation in Canada. Canada claims that running an online gambling operation up there is illegal, but dare not take on Kahnawake. The last time they did guns were brandished and one person died.

I don't think that anyone doubts Gaming Associates is reliable. Just take a look at who they work for and who works for them. But Kahnawake commissioned the report and can do what they want with it. Hopefully they'll release the full, unedited report.

 

[same_old]

Still no official response

Jetset, has anything as yet come of the 8th December deadline on the official audit/report. I've read back a fair bit here to my last post and there is still no reposnse at all from AP or the people doing the report's???..

Give it another 2 months and it will all be water under the bridge.
people will forget about the 7 figures they blatantly stole and operations will continue as normal..

 

[Self Made]

Kahnawake commissioned the report, so they'll be the ones reporting the findings. They haven't made a statement since their

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.

 

[lots0]

Two weeks to review the report???

Like many things with this Absolute Poker cheating scandal, I find this outrageous.


So let me get this straight....

Absolute Poker is CAUGHT red handed cheating by players, the cheating is proven by players beyond any doubt.

Absolute Poker owners commission a report on the cheating by investigating themselves.

Now the owners of Absolute Poker want two weeks to review the report they wrote about themselves.

Anyone want to bet they find themselves completly innocent of any wrong doing...

 

[Self Made]

Absolute Poker owners commission a report on the cheating by investigating themselves.

Kahnawake commissioned it, not Absolute.

Gaming Associates conducted it, not Absolute.

 

[GaryWatson]

I can exclusively reveal that the shills are fading. No responce to the initial offence.

 

[lots0]

Kahnawake commissioned it, not Absolute.

And just who owns Absolute Poker... Why the Kahnawake do...

Gaming Associates conducted it, not Absolute.

Really and just who has had a prior relationship with Gaming Associates??
Why the Kahnawake, thats who...

All the dirty little strings lead back to the current owners of Absolute Poker... the Kahnawake.

 

[Self Made]

And just who owns Absolute Poker... Why the Kahnawake do...

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.

Really and just who has had a prior relationship with Gaming Associates??

So did Alderney and the Northern Territory.

 

[KellyBlend]

They promissed to inform the public within 2 weeks. It is now 26 days ago, since this statement was made. However, there are a lot of holidays included. Therefore, we should still wait a couple of days. From my experience as a former auditor I know that it happens relatively often in such cases, that the auditors are asked to change the wording of the report. And then it depends, whether the auditor has enough backbone to ignore such requests.

 

[KellyBlend]

Btw: I belong to the guys with too much backbone. Therefore, I have decided relatively early for another profession. Real independency within the audit profession can be found relatively rare only; mostly within the very big audit companies which do not worry about any direct or indirect economic dependency from the client relationship.

 

[lots0]

Well I see the Absolute Poker shills have finally arrived.

So GPF, who do you think owns Absolute Poker?

 

[Self Made]

Well I see the Absolute Poker shills have finally arrived.

Calling me a shill is not the way to get an answer.

 

[The Dude]

Calling me a shill is not the way to get an answer.

Agreed. There is no cause for personal attacks. GPF's comments on this subject are non-biased in my opinion.

 

[GaryWatson]

Calling me a shill is not the way to get an answer.

Im past caring who is a shill and who isnt. Im bored with the entire AP saga. I want genuine results. I wish someone like pokeraddict would offer an independent review. He is probably the most knowlegable poker person I know on this site & was the first person i know to point to AP's indescresions

 

[lots0]

OK...

Maybe I was a bit quick to call you a shill.

FYI - I am not currently in the market for a bridge.

My question still stands.

Who do you think owns AP?

 

[GaryWatson]

FYI - I am not currently in the market for a bridge.

I saw that comment. Lots0, dont even waste your time looking for an answer from people that come out with crap like that

 

[jetset]

Jetset, has anything as yet come of the 8th December deadline on the official audit/report. I've read back a fair bit here to my last post and there is still no reposnse at all from AP or the people doing the report's???..

Give it another 2 months and it will all be water under the bridge.
people will forget about the 7 figures they blatantly stole and operations will continue as normal..

Forgive the slow reply - I've been totally Internet hamstrung for the past 36 hours thanks to technical problems at my ISP.

To belatedly answer your question - no, nothing further either official or unofficial has reached me on the AP scandal.

I think Kellyblend is right - we've only just emerged from the festive season and all the dislocations and delays that this can entail.

I would be personally frustrated if nothing has emerged by the beginning of next week, and that would tend to raise questions about the integrity of AP, the Mohawks and Gaming Associates for me.

 

[Self Made]

My question still stands.

Who do you think owns AP?

As I said in my previous post:

No one actually believes Kahnawake or some Indian chief up their owns Absolute. It's just a front for the real owners, presumably mostly Scott Tom.

Scott Tom is the founder of Absolute, and primary shareholder. I've never heard anything to suggest he sold out. He had been seen in the Absolute offices regularly until fairly recently, and was there at the closing when they bought UltimateBet.

Joe Norton, on the other hand (it was he, not Kahnawake, that

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to own Absolute), has never had a connection to Absolute as far as I know. There's never been a report of Absolute being sold or him buying it. And where would he get the money? There's nothing in his background that suggest he could come up with that kind of money. Based on their relative player volumes and Party Gaming's market price, Absolute/UB would be worth about $1.2 billion (though private companies change hands at lower multiples than public ones trade at). I don't believe that you could keep a transaction of that size quiet, that Joe Norton could come up with that kind of money, or that it happened at all.

I think that Norton's announcement is just what most knowledgeable observers believed it to be: a laughably-sloppy lie concocted to convince people that Tom didn't own Absolute any more. As an American in the online gambling industry he certainly has reason to conceal his involvement (legal risk). He may also have other reasons to conceal his ownership, e.g. he's reported to have frozen out the minority investors and there's been other negative speculation about him.

You can find what people with greater knowledge of the situation (e.g. Nat Arem, people working in the industry in Costa Rica) have written on the various 2+2 threads, among other places. Searching in Google I found Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) , which seems to have some relevant material.

 

[jetset]

IMO that is a good and likely summation of the ownership question, although I think the "ownership" may be more a case of cunning company reshuffling and registrations in diverse localities backed by discreet agreements rather than outright purchase, enabling Norton to become the front man but the ownership to remain in reality unchanged.

Unfortunately it is unlikely that such machinations will be exposed or substantiated if done cleverly enough.

 

[lots0]

Like much of this Absolute Poker cheating saga, who is in actual control of AP is very clouded.

But, on paper Absolute Poker is owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG and Joe Norton (former chief of the Mohawks) has stated he is the sole 100% owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG.

No way to verify this as Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG is a sole proprietorship company and is not subject to outside audits, nor is it required to release any information.

The information about Joe Norton owning Absolute Poker came from Absolute Poker and Joe Norton.

I don't personally believe that Tom Scott is involved in day to day operations of Absolute Poker, but he very well could be one of the guys making management decisions.

 

[jetset]

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QUOTE:
I have been invited to be a guest on Lou Kriegers Keep Flopping Aces radio show tomorrow to discuss the Absolute Poker Scandal. After having written a series of columns on the subject for Poker Player Newspaper, Lou seems to think I know what Im taking about.

For the entire hour, well discuss the scandal, specifically the fact that Absolute Poker hasnt mentioned it in months and the Kahnawake Gaming Commission has yet to release its final audit report (though it was promised weeks ago).

The show just moved from Holdem Radio to Rounders Radio and will be live starting at 6pm PST (9pm EST). UNQUOTE