Absolute Poker is absolutely rigged. (New evidence, near certain proof its rigged).

[JALaw]

AP Hand Histories

Are you serious that they only keep two months of hand histories? That in and of itself should be a big red flag to anyone... it costs virtually to save hand histories. I can't think of any good reasons for this and can think of many bad ones... is this commonplace in the online poker industry?

That's what I was told as well when I wanted to get a hand history/tourney summary _before_ this scandal with AP occurred.

More likely than not I suspect there's only a couple months of _easy to retrieve_ hand histories -- I suspect older stuff can be retrieved in the event of an emergency/audit.

Jeff

 

[pokeraddict]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's nice to know their inability to pay their bills helps to get the word out on their cheating. See the bolded line.

The old maxim about media moguls warns against picking fights with people who buy their ink by the barrel, but last week a marketing firm showed that it was not to be trifled with after it distributed a news release trying to shame a client that owed it money.

In a statement sent to about 100 newspapers, Publicity Guaranteed, a marketing firm in Fairfax, Va., said it was owed $43,000 by AbsolutePoker.com, an Internet gambling site based in Costa Rica.

Nat Kurok, senior vice president of Publicity Guaranteed, said he initially had reservations about working with a client both in such an industry and incorporated offshore.

But there was an angle he found irresistible: the site offered college tuition in online poker tournaments.

Publicity Guaranteed has a novel approach where it charges only for each article it successfully pitches; in 2005 and 2006, articles about the tuition contest appeared in more than 40 newspapers, including USA Today and The New York Times. According to court documents in a suit that Publicity Guaranteed won last year in Arlington County Circuit Court in Virginia, Absolute Poker paid $37,000 for the first wave of publicity, and then did not pay publicists for the rest.

Reached Friday by telephone in Costa Rica, an Absolute Poker executive, Paul Leggett, said he would call back with a comment but did not.

Recently, the poker site has had plenty of publicity, but not the helpful kind. After accusations of cheating by players, the company issued a statement admitting a security breach that was horrendous and inexcusable.

Dozens of Web sites covered the matter; the news release from Publicity Guaranteed linked to 37 of them.

Were just saying were someone else that got shortchanged by Absolute Poker, and this should be public knowledge, Mr. Kurok said, adding that other clients who miss payments need not worry about his firm growing another head.

There are some clients that have trouble with cash flow and were flexible, he said.

 

[jetset]

Update

GRIMARD ACCUSED IN ABSOLUTE POKER CHEATING ISSUE (Update)

Incommunicado and reportedly in Canada

One of Absolute Poker's principal outlets for 'unofficial' company statements, the gambling information portal 911, has come out openly in identifying allegedly terminated employee AJ Green aka Alan John Grimard, describing him as: "The culprit in a notorious Absolute Poker 'internal cheating' scandal" and carrying his photograph on its website.

The website claims that Grimard has been located in his native Canada and gives his Hotmail email address, apparently provided by a former colleague at Nine.com who from his comments clearly has a personal dislike for the Canadian. 911 wisely stops short of publishing more details, although these are apparently within its knowledge.

Implicit in the accusation is the presumption that Grimard, who worked for Absolute Poker, is the "trusted consultant" to which earlier Absolute Poker statements referred when the online poker site finally admitted that the player community was correct in deducing that significant cheating had taken place in a poker tournament. Evidence suggested that a player in the tournament could see other players' hole cards.

No further word has been heard on Scott Tom, the other shadowy figure linked to Absolute Poker and the cheating scandal by player community sleuthing.

Investigations into the incident by gaming audit experts Gaming Associates, commissioned for the task by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, are believed to be ongoing, although the licensing jurisdiction as not issued any further reports to date.

Absolute Poker is wholly owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, a Kahnawake company owned by the former chief of the Mohawks who figured in the introduction of the KGC as a licensing jurisdiction.

Emails sent to the email address alleged to be Grimard's and inviting his side of the story have thus far gone unanswered.

 

[lots0]

I will make one last post in this thread...
I will eat a little crow.
I am sure some will enjoy it more than I do.

This is the response I received from Absolute Poker (chipleader) when I requested a copy of the hand history for the $1000 buy in tournament that started this whole thing.

FYI - I already had six copies of the hand history for this tournament four copies provided to me by players and two copies from Adanthar (provided to him by different players) and a copy of the data dump excel hand history file. I just wanted to see what AP's response to my request would be and if the Hand History matched.

Anyway without further delay here is Absolute Pokers Response to my request for the hand history.


***********


Dear XXXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting us.

We could not find any tournament with ID #1883389.

Please double check and let us know the correct TID and also, for security reasons, please explain to us the reason why you need this information.

Do not hesitate to contact us if you require further assistance or additional information.

Best regards,

Sergio
UltimateBet ~ Customer Support
'The Ultimate Poker Experience'
[email protected]

Ensure the security of your account! Never give out your password and change it frequently!


**************

I was wrong about Absolute Poker.

Absolute Poker flat out lied to me.

Once someone outright lies to ya, no way you can believe anything they say.
I have cut my business ties with them and I have Rogued both Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet.

FYI - I did provide the information Serigo asked for on the 18th... AP has yet to respond.

 

[SlotsWizard]

We could not find any tournament with ID #1883389.

Unreal! Maybe they couldn't find it because their 2-month retention period had passed and the data was already purged.

 

[jetset]

Kudos, Lots0!

It's not always easy to admit one was mistaken, and respect to you for doing so.

 

[noluckever67]

Email from AP

this was in response to m applying for a super user acct...lol


Dear Valued Customer,

I am the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.

As many of our players are aware, there has been a security breach in our system that allowed unlawful access to player information that resulted in unfair play. I am writing to you today to let you know what we know so far in order to set the record straight, and to assure you of APs commitment to player security. I am sure that this letter will not address all of the questions and concerns you may have, nor will it extinguish the heated discussion surrounding this issue. At this point, our intention is to let you know all we can disclose and to assure you of our continued efforts to keep you informed as best we can as the investigations continue.

We deeply regret this situation has occurred. A breach in security in online poker is serious and of great concern to players and the industry worldwide, and this particular situation has been the subject of debate within the poker player community and in the media, giving rise to the creation of several websites and hundreds and hundreds of comments, opinions, and theories of what occurred some of which are accurate, and some that are not.

Like you, I have not been happy that during the initial stage of our investigation, AP has not been more forthcoming in providing a timely or comprehensive explanation on this matter, giving rise to anger, suspicion, and concern on the part of our valued customers. I hope that our customers can appreciate that this remains an incredibly complex and sensitive issue, and I want to give you my strongest possible assurance that we will be as forthcoming as possible on how this breach occurred and what we are doing to remedy the situation.


What We Know and Actions We Have Taken

AP was notified by a customer that a possible cheating incident occurred during a recent tournament, and in response forwarded players hand logs. This disclosure of the hand logs prompted our customers to determine that a more serious security breach had occurred. We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates, an acknowledged world-wide expert in audits, interactive gaming tests, and information security

Based upon our preliminary findings, it appears that the integrity of our poker system was compromised by a high-ranking trusted consultant employed by AP whose position gave him extraordinary access to certain security systems. As has been speculated in several online forums, this consultant devised a sophisticated scheme to manipulate internal systems to access third-party computers and accounts to view hole cards of other customers during play without their knowledge. As this consultant was aware of the details of our fraud detection process, the likelihood that the scheme would be uncovered through our normal procedures was minimized. We consider this security breach to be a horrendous and inexcusable offense.

We will pay for all losses suffered by the affected players as soon as our audit is finished and the amounts are determined. Although we are in the process of attempting to recover all the winnings of this consultant, any unrecovered losses of affected players will be paid by Absolute Poker so that all affected persons will be made whole.

Next Steps

We are still investigating whether the consultant was acting alone or in concert with others, and it appears at this time that all account holders are innocent of collusion and were unaware of any wrong-doing by the consultant, who was immediately terminated. We continue to investigate this matter aggressively, and all of these preliminary findings are subject to the audits currently underway. We have recently uncovered additional accounts used by the consultant that have not been publicly reported. So as to not compromise the investigation, we are not releasing the names of these additional accounts at this time, and will contact these affected customers individually.

The specific allegations of unlawful activity are being investigated both by AP and by the authorized authorities, including the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. We will continue to actively cooperate with these authorities in full compliance with the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming. In addition to our own investigation and the audit by Gaming Associates, we have also submitted to an audit by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

Please be assured that we have corrected the problem that allowed the system to be unfairly manipulated. We are working furiously to increase the safeguards within our systems. While we are satisfied that our systems are secured, we realize that our security systems must be continuously monitored and enhanced.


Without question, this incident has been unfortunate for all concerned, and we will emerge as a stronger company. I realize it will take some time and much more information for AP to re-earn the trust and confidence of our customers who are in doubt of our commitment to the highest levels of security, privacy and integrity. As we move to address and correct this situation, our valued customers have played a vital role in uncovering this scheme through various online forums and have become an active part of the solution.

With my full sincerity, I thank you, and I promise to keep you updated as we bring this situation to a close.

Sincerely,

Joe Norton

 

[pokeraddict]

Lots0, no hard feelings, I hope the feeling is mutual.

 

[Snowman]

Lots0.
Thanks for your post. I've followed this thread from day one and seen both aspects of a very one-sided argument. Throughout this affair we have witnessed you fight your corner and, as an associate of AP and UP, try to protect both your interests and investment. In many repsects a vote of thanks should be forwarded to you; some of us may not have continued with our research and investigations if it wasn't in order to persuade you. And now it emerges staff at AP were not only involved but complicit. It takes courage and character to admit ones mistakes; you have come out of this with honour - AP have come out of this as crooks and liars. May I respectfully suggest you contact some of the reps and associates from reputable operators who use this site in order to replace AP from your portfolio. I wish you luck and take off my hat to you.

 

[bb28]

Question for you. I noticed that your reply was from Sergio @Ultimate Bet. I know AP and UB are both owned by the same, but why was your reply from Ultimate Bet? Is support for both AP and UB done by UB?





Dear XXXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting us.

We could not find any tournament with ID #1883389.

Please double check and let us know the correct TID and also, for security reasons, please explain to us the reason why you need this information.

Do not hesitate to contact us if you require further assistance or additional information.

Best regards,

Sergio
UltimateBet ~ Customer Support
'The Ultimate Poker Experience'
[email protected]

Ensure the security of your account! Never give out your password and change it frequently!


**************

I

 

[lots0]

OK this really is my last post in this thread.

...why was your reply from Ultimate Bet?

Not sure, I asked for the hand history from my affiliate contact (not Serigo) with chipleader, the affiliate program for both AP and UB.

 

[bb28]

OK this really is my last post in this thread.


Not sure, I asked for the hand history from my affiliate contact (not Serigo) with chipleader, the affiliate program for both AP and UB.

That is strange........don't you think?

Anyway....as others have said, I appreciate all the informative posts about AB from everyone that contributed. I'm glad I've never played there. I have played at UB, but no more!

I'm trying to get back into Doyle's room but I'm having issues with my MG alias.

 

[thelawnet]

I am the former Grand Chief of the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake and the owner of Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, which holds a 100% interest in Absolute Poker.

What is up with this?

Kahnawake is supposed to be regulating them. Do they own them as well?

 

[jetset]

See earlier posts in this thread where Joe Norton "former chief of the Mohawks" owns Tokwiro Enterprises - a Kahnawake registered company - which own 100 percent of Absolute Poker.

 

[The Dude]

AP was notified by a customer that a possible cheating incident occurred during a recent tournament, and in response forwarded players hand logs. This disclosure of the hand logs prompted our customers to determine that a more serious security breach had occurred. We immediately launched an internal investigation and also requested a formal audit by Gaming Associates, an acknowledged world-wide expert in audits, interactive gaming tests, and information security

It's like a mindless Mantra. Why do they keep saying this when it is a fact - documented in the fora and on this site's Rogue section - that it took them over a month to "launch" this internal investigation.

I wish they would just quit lying to everyone and face the facts - they only took this seriously when the Wizard published his findings and MSNBC et. al. fired a shot across their bow. If this was only merely contained in the fora, we would still be hammering these guys for answers. That's my take on this.

 

[kingkong098]

and yet despite all this they still have a decent amount of freaking traffic,the other day i was playing in a tourny at bodog and asked fellow players at the table if they had ever played at ap and only 2 had and neither one of them or anyone at the table heard about this fiasco..lol...incredible

Was playing hold'em yesterday in a B&M, when an AP ad came on the television. I made some comment about how they have balls to still be advertizing on TV after the whole debacle. I got mostly blank stares back from my table.....Of the 40 or so players in the room only a couple had any idea of what has happened.

Unless Cardplayer and the other Mags pick this story up, it looks like AP will likely survive without too much damage.

 

[pokeraddict]

Mason Malmuth comments that AP has refused their offer to investigate in addition to other opinions.

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[jetset]

Charity issue

Some way back in this discussion there was talk of Absolute running charity events and either not paying the money over (I think $10 000 was mentioned?) or AP staff keeping a contest prize car.

Whilst I have been unable to verify the car, I did check with the charity to which AP claimed it had (belatedly through an admin glitch) made the donation.

Here's the response, following by relevant despatch email headers:

Dear XXXXXXXXXX

In February 2007, we received a donation in the form of a wire transfer from Absolute Poker in the amount of $7472.00.

This donation went to support our kids programs.

Sunrise Children's Foundation is a nonprofit 501(c) (3) corporation whose mission is Helping children to fulfill their potential of safe, healthy and educated lives. Our Federal ID# is 88-0306804.

Sunny Wishes,

Virginia

Virginia Stiles

Executive Office Administrator

Sunrise Children's Foundation

3196 S Maryland Parkway #307

Las Vegas NV 89109

702-731-8373 Fax 702-731-8372

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.sunrisechildren.org

HEADERS:

Received: (qmail 1305 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2007 21:19:19 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO outmta-2.esr.lvcm.net) ([24.234.0.9])
(envelope-sender <[email protected]>)
Received: from sunrisefront (wsip-24-234-203-35.lv.lv.cox.net [24.234.203.35])
by outmta-2.esr.lvcm.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C02C15303

 

[jetset]

Mason Malmuth comments that AP has refused their offer to investigate in addition to other opinions.

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That appears to me to be a very professional and generous offer from 2+2, and suggests to me a far more acceptable audit than one done by a company with whom Kahnawake and through that jurisdiction Absolute has a previous relationship.

Although AP do not seem to have rejected the proposal, their silence thus far on the matter (which they initially raised when trying to get 2+2 on-side) doesn't look promising.

QUOTE:

We at Two Plus Two dont know enough about Gaming Associates to judge its ability to conduct an adequate investigation of Absolute Poker. We do know, however, that this proposed investigation makes us uneasy for a few reasons.

First, according to its press release, Absolute Poker is funding the investigation directly, with no third party involved to ensure objectivity.

Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Twos role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

Finally, Two Plus Two believes that a report from Gaming Associates, an Australian company apparently dealing primarily with Antigua and Barbados companies, may not maintain the same weight and reliability as the international law firm retained by Two Plus Two. UNQUOTE

 

[jetset]

HAS ABSOLUTE POKER SPURNED INDEPENDENT AUDIT OFFER?

2+2 publisher reveals details of a generous offer to help get to the bottom of the Absolute Poker debacle

With no official progress reports yet forthcoming from either Absolute Poker or Kahnawake Gaming Commission on the promised Gaming Associates inspection, the furore caused by tournament cheating allegations continued this week.

The row stems from player investigations on the 2+2 and other poker message boards that uncovered dishonest play in an online tournament by an Absolute Poker "consultant" who apparently had sight of his opponents' hole cards.

After dismissing the allegations as impossible and untrue for over a month, Absolute Poker and its licensing jurisdiction Kahnawake Gaming Commission admitted there was a problem and announced that the KGC testing contractor Gaming Associates would be brought in to investigate. Absolute Poker is wholly owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG, a Kahnawake company which is owned 100 percent by a former Mohawk chief, Joe Norton.

This week the owners and publishers of the 2+2 forum updated members on some of the behind-the-scenes activity in the scandal.
Mason Malmuth of Two Plus Two Publishing revealed that Absolute Poker had approached him and asked if Two Plus Two would confirm to its forums that Absolute had done everything in its power to address and fix the cheating allegations, security breaches, and improper activity being discussed so widely.

Malmuth told the Absolute representative that he would not make such a statement unless he believed it to be true and thought it was in the best interests of the community.

In a cooperative move, Malmuth suggested that expert and independent investigation of the scandal was required, and offered - at 2+2's expense - to commission his legal representatives to put together a competent and totally independent team to undertake such an initiative. If the results of the project indicated that Absolute Poker was safe for players, Malmuth gave an undertaking that he would post a forum notice to that effect.

"The representative from Absolute Poker who we spoke with initially agreed to these terms and I presented the investigation opportunity to my attorneys," writes Malmuth.

"My attorneys informed me that they would be willing to conduct a thorough investigation of Absolute Poker," Malmuth reports. "The law firm could immediately assemble a team of lawyers, computer specialists, and ex-government fraud investigators to fully analyze the current situation at Absolute and give an accurate report on the same. In order to accept, however, my attorneys needed to make it very clear that:

1. The investigation and report would be for the direct benefit of Two Plus Two and its forums, not Absolute Poker,

2. A positive outcome for Absolute could not be guaranteed,

3. The report and investigation would not include Two Plus Twos (or its attorneys) position on the general legality of online poker, and

4. They would accept direct compensation for the investigation only from Two Plus Two as a client."

With the initiative gathering momentum, 2+2's attorneys submitted a detailed plan for the audit, which Malmuth found reasonable and felt would be sure to produce an objective assessment. He forwarded the proposal to Absolute Poker management and.....nothing. No acknowledgement, comment or any indication that the project might move forward.

Malmuth concludes: "We at Two Plus Two dont know enough about Gaming Associates to judge its ability to conduct an adequate investigation of Absolute Poker.

"We do know, however, that this proposed investigation makes us uneasy for a few reasons:

"First, according to its press release, Absolute Poker is funding the investigation directly, with no third party involved to ensure objectivity.

"Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Twos role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

"Finally, Two Plus Two believes that a report from Gaming Associates, an Australian company apparently dealing primarily with Antigua and Barbados companies, may not maintain the same weight and reliability as the international law firm retained by Two Plus Two."

Explaining the reasons for publishing the update, Malmuth wrote: "First, I wanted to inform all Two Plus Two posters of the Absolute situation and our current stance on the issue. Second, I wanted to encourage discussion on whether Absolutes current investigation proposal with Gaming Associates is adequate to protect its site and the online poker industry in general."

 

[jetset]

Update

ABSOLUTE POKER CHEATS TOOK $800 000

Beleaguered online poker operator issues progress report

The Kahnawake registered company Tokwiro Enterprises, 100 percent owners of Absolute Poker.com issued a progress report as the week closed on its ongoing investigations into a cheating scandal that has seen the company widely condemned by the player community (see previous InfoPowa reports).

The report contains some interesting numbers, with Tokwiro claiming that the cheating "window" lasted for 40 days beginning August 14 and that some $800 000 was wrongfully won by the still unidentified company consultant, who was summarily dismissed - a point reiterated in the current report. Absolute Poker reimbursed players with twice that amount - $1.6 million - the progress report claims.

The company earlier revealed that the flaw allegedly exploited by the "consultant" to cheat Absolute Poker tournament players came about through a software upgrade, and that the breach has since been identified and sealed.

"The breach was exploitable only by an authorised AP person that manipulated the internal reporting software, together with the AP gaming software," the report states. "The security breach was not, therefore, the result of an external action, and no individual outside AP could exploit the breach."

The report goes on to claim that allegations of a super account are unfounded, and that there is no capability on any Absolute account to see the hole cards of other players. But it does not explain how the cheat was able to achieve such impossible winning results.

The cheater/s used accounts with the handles Potripper, Graycat, Steamroller, Doubledrag, Payup, Supercard 55 and Romnaldo, Absolute Poker claims.

All hand histories of play were retained and are being thoroughly analysed by Gaming Associates, commissioned by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission which licenses Absolute to audit the entire system. Absolute gives an assurance that any other prejudiced players who come to notice in the audit will be compensated.

The statement ends with an apology and the assurance that the site is safe and that the investigations will be reported in an open and forthright manner.

What the report does not disclose is the name of the perpetrator of the incident, arguably the worst cheating scandal in the short history of Internet poker. Nor does it reveal if his/her location is known, or whether a fraud complaint has been made to police authorities in Quebec or whether such a course of action is planned.

 

[Zoozie]

The report goes on to claim that allegations of a super account are unfounded, and that there is no capability on any Absolute account to see the hole cards of other players. But it does not explain how the cheat was able to achieve such impossible winning results.

So they claim it is impossible a superuser could see hole cards. But they are also not able to explain how the cheating was possible...
Basically they have gotten nowhere in the investigation.

First of all it is proven without doubt someone could see the hole cards. They should start with this assumption instead. I have not much hope for
the investigation anyway, but I hope they can do better than this.

 

[mussy]

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with Nat Arem about the AP scandal.

 

[lojo]

A little 'time travel' and reset would work... hand is dealt to phantom players, recalled to server, read by employee, sent to real players... hole cards seen.

 

[jetset]

Update

MORE DETAIL EMERGES ON ABSOLUTE POKER CRISIS

Poker News interview cautious but interesting

Followers of the unfolding cheating crisis at Absolute Poker.com will have some absorbing reading over the next few days as Poker News publishes a clearly extensive interview with Nat Arem, one of the main player investigators who uncovered the debacle at the online poker site.

Poker News commendably and as an independent observer, financed a trip by Arem to Costa Rica to look into the "Holecard-gate" scandal that has rocked the online poker site following indications that up to $800 000 or more was involved in cheating tournament play perpetrated by a company insider over a period of at least 40 days (see previous InfoPowa reports). Straining its credibility, the company at first denied that anything was amiss when players uncovered the scam.

In the first interview, Poker News introduces Nat Arem as the driving force behind thepokerdb.com website. "Arem, though young in years (25), nonetheless brought extensive poker and technical expertise to the informal investigation as he and many others searched for answers, and Arem himself was the first to discover key information which strengthened many players' suspicions," says the preamble.

Arem reveals that he initially declined an offer by Absolute to travel to AP's offices and ask more questions concerning the affair. While Arem was unable to accept the initial offer for various reasons, there was still incentive for him to make the trip, to see if he could gain any insight into the allegations. To avoid any possible impropriety, or the appearance thereof, PokerNews subsequently agreed to send Arem to Costa Rica, and have him report back on what he found.

Arem starts the interview by explaining how he became involved at a stage when Absolute Poker was denying that something was wrong. He was sent the now notorious full Excel file that a player had perhaps mistakenly received from Absolute Poker (see previous InfoPowa reports) and started to study it closely with other expert players, eventually uncovering an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that pointed to Absolute Poker insider involvement.

He refers to a "new head" of Absolute Poker without disclosing this individual's identity or who the "old" head had been.

During his visit late October to Costa Rica, Arem visited the AP offices on two days and met with the Gaming Associates auditors called in to investigate the issue on the evening of Sunday the 4th November. He was told that he could see what he wanted, except for data reserved for the audit. The restricted data included information on all of the known cheating accounts.

Arem goes on to discuss the question on every online poker player's lips: "How was the cheating done?"

"I was not able to view the cheating method first-hand," he says. "AP told me that the vulnerability had been fixed and therefore was not available for viewing.

"However, the method used to gain hole-card access was described to me as a backend tool called "Servman" that wrote the hand histories before hands were completed. As originally developed, the "game log" supposedly did not display admin-level hand histories until the hand was over. I was told that a software change in mid-June 2007 changed this feature so all hands were written to the database as the hands progressed. The timeline makes sense in a number of ways because there is significant independent evidence that AP was testing their 8.0 client in the mid-June timeframe. Therefore, it's likely that the company made a number of changes to the code on their live-game server to allow for testing of the beta client. I do not know which programmer(s) made the changes and I'm not sure whether it was a mistake or ordered by a higher-up. I was not able to examine source code of the client."

Arem was also told which of the cheating accounts nicknames applied to account #363 - a reference that appeared in the suspect Excel file, but says: "I am not at liberty to state which of the four is #363. The NDA [Non-Disclosure Agreement] that I signed at the AP offices prevents me from stating the aforementioned information."

Regarding the period in which cheating took place, which Absolute Poker has subsequently claimed was over a 40 day period starting August 14, Arem cannot be certain, but says that he has not seen any suspect hand histories outside of the August and September 2007 timeline.

"Considering the claims that the aforementioned software change happened in mid-June, it is not yet clear if there was cheating in June and July as well," he points out. "What seems most likely is the software change was noticed and exploited a month or so after being put in place. This lends some credence to the idea that the software change was a mistake and unknown by the AP executives in Costa Rica and Panama. Therefore, the most current theory is that the cheating was limited to August and September of 2007."

The interview becomes more interesting when Poker News asks Arem about Absolute's aknowledgement that something was wrong around October 18.

Arem reveals that on that day Absolute Poker informed people at poker portal PocketFives.com that they were going to admit an internal breach regarding the hole card vulnerability alluded to earlier.

"As it was described to me later, AJ Green went to people at Absolute Poker and admitted what he had done. I don't know if that is true," Arem warns. "But once Absolute agreed to admit the internal breach, the investigation shifted from one of "digging for dirt" to trying to understand exactly how everything happened. I, along with many others, spent hours and hours searching for information on how the breach occurred, how long it occurred for, who was involved, etc. I spoke to many current and former Absolute employees about the company's backend systems and what sort of mechanisms would allow hole cards to be viewed.

"My personal feeling is that a number of people knew. I think the lower-level employees were largely kept out of the loop and did not know what was going on. But as you get higher up in the company, I am told that a number of employees knew about the breach and felt that it was in everyone's best interest to cover up the whole thing as best as possible."

Arem adds: "However, it also seems as if those people who knew before the 18th only learned what was going on a short amount of time before the 18th. I don't think there were a large number of people who knew what was going on when the cheating itself was going down. I consider my sources to be very reliable; much of the information that they have provided has checked out elsewhere and I have no reason to believe that they would be misleading me on this matter."

The Gaming Associates audit of Absolute Poker is also discussed in the interview, and appears to have been planned as a three week exercise with the investigating team visiting South Korea, Quebec in Canada and Costa Rica and a conclusion date of November 9. The final audit report will apparently be released to selected media and poker information portals, as has been the case with previous statements by the company.

After meeting with three of the four man Gaming Associates team, Arem appears satisfied with their independence, reputation, competency and reputation

"....my personal opinion is that they are truly looking for holes in the AP story. They were genuinely interested in my take on things and I found them to be among the most credible people that I've talked to about this whole subject. I shared a fair amount of information with them and I hope they can put it to good use in their audit," he concludes.

Part 2 of the Poker News interview promises to be more revealing, casting light on the various personalities alleged to be involved, and how the scandal was handled.

 

[lojo]

A little 'time travel' and reset would work... hand is dealt to phantom players, recalled to server, read by employee, sent to real players... hole cards seen.

...hole-card access was described to me as a backend tool called "Servman" that wrote the hand histories before hands were completed...

Pretty close

 

[mussy]

UB too?

Posted by gank on pocket5s.

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to original post. :


Well, I guess I have become the reporter everyone trusts to talk about what goes on behind the scenes while protecting my source's identity, as I have been contacted by and had a long conversation with an employee at UB who wished to shed light on the company. Again, I will protect my source and not be releasing his/her name to anyone, ever.

I will list the all the important points from the conversation as best I can.

1. It is possible to have upto 25 usernames registered to 1 players name on UB, they know about this and are ok with it as a company.

2. If someone does have multiple accounts, even if they are registered to the same name and use the same IP address, they are permitted to play at the same table, cash games and sitNgos and tournies. UB knows about this, and are OK with it.

3. Although my source is not sure if hole cards could be seen during the hand by a superuser account, my source does know that as soon as a hand is over with, UB personell has access to see everyones holecards even those that didnt go to showdown. This has been used by some UB higher ups at times while they were playing. Not a direct form of cheating, but definitely an unfair advantage if the person has access to this while playing.

4. A higher level executive was fired not to long ago, because her 19 year old son, who she got a job at UB, was caught cheating games at the UB office. It is unclear to my source if holecards were able to be seen during the hand, but it is a possibility. He definitely was cheating customers somehow, maybe a cobination of the above things mentioned at the very least.

edit: Another close, reliable source has just talked to me and told me "the woman's son had "administrative access" which let him see hole cards." and that the source "wouldn't be surprised if administrative access still exists" The person went on to say "there's also evidence that at least a couple months ago AJ (Green) was overseeing day to day operations"

5. Chris Welch, a former employee of Pokerstars, was brought on board by UB to help clean up the site. He figured out the problem was that they were using a version of the software from 1998 that had security holes in it(i.e. no security firewalls were/could be put in place) that couldnt be fixed without a complete overhaul of the software, which was estimated at costing 6 million dollars. UB decided it was not in their best interests to upgrade the software.

6. My source also voiced their concern for my safety for vocalizing these points.

I bring this to light because I feel that this is the important stuff that our community needs to be aware of.


[End of quote]

(The edit in the middle of the text was made by gank in his original post.)

 

[lojo]

Mussy, it can be dangerous to only have one source, without coroberating evidence you could be held liable for libel or slander.. please be careful.

3. ...my source does know that as soon as a hand is over with, UB personell has access to see everyones holecards even those that didnt go to showdown. ...

Supports my theory of AP, a loop, a mirror, (servman?).

 

[jetset]

Interesting that this triggers questions about Absolute Poker's sister site, too.

I wonder if they share offices and other physical facilities? Perhaps Nat Arem at 2+2 can comment on that following his visit to the AP set-up in Costa Rica.

Mussy, is Gank a moderator or part of the ownership of PocketFives? Or is he simply one of the posters at PocketFives?

 

[jetset]

I've just been over to PocketFives to have a closer look at that thread, and for balance I have to re-post the following.

This is further down in the thread, where one of the PocketFives guys checks out the Chris Welch aspect of Gank's post.

This is the response from Chris Welch:

Hi Matt

Thankyou for your note the only comments I will make are these

1 I am a marketing guy , I led global marketing for Stars and was poached to lead the global marketing for a company that worked for UB. I had no input into technical areas as this was not my area of expertise. Thus the comments regarding me and UBs technical side are frankly laughable !!

2 I left shortly after the passing of UIGEA in December 2006

3 In my short time working with UB everyone I met was in my eyes open and honest and I have zero doubts as to to integrity of the management or the software.

4 UB have since merged with AP with most of the prior management of UB leaving. I cannot comment on the current team as I do not know them.

5 I have worked in marketing in gaming for over 7 years and have over that time read on various forums about integrity. Speaking as an insider I have seen nothing even remotely dubiuous, why bother to fix something that makes millions playing it straight? Clearly there is always scope for bad apples to not play fair but I can't comment because I don't know the facts.

I am happy for the above to be posted in full

Regards

Chris Welch
Managing Director Europe
Centrebet.com
Odds-Casino-Poker

 

[lojo]

What's your take on this Jetset.. or is expose enough? It's a hard line to walk.

 

[jetset]

I'm not sure what to make of this latest rather melodramatic post from Gank, but I do know that when I see one allegation in a post rebutted I tend to look askance at other accusations in the same post - human and suspicious nature I suppose.

Let me put it this way; Chris Welch's response and the question mark it raises over the veracity of the information is enough to make me hold for now on publicising Gank's revelations on AP's sister website.

That said, I remain suspicious of the manner in which AP is handling this crisis and the questions that remain unanswered - for example the diversions around the personalities involved in management, AJ Green, Scott Tom etc etc.

The Poker News interview with Nat Arem still leaves these questions hanging in the air, although Part 2 may be less cautious and start naming names.

There's still way too much releasing of 'unofficial' and unsourced information to selective media for my money, and the focus appears to be more on damage control than transparent and open company communication on this debacle.

One point in Welch's response is revealing - that when Ultimate Bet was merged with Absolute Poker the majority of the UB people whom he vouches for left the merged companies. To me, that means that the shadowy and thus far unidentified figures in charge of Absolute Poker are also presumably running things at Ultimate Bet.

Bearing in mind all that has passed in recent months, that gives me pause for thought.

 

[mussy]

Yes, I can see that gank's post has to be treated with some caution now. The Welch response was not there when I read the thread last night, I believe. I haven't been to pocket5s yet this morning, I've come here first.

gank is Brett Jungblutt, he has a WSOP bracelet. While I accept that this does not make him automatically reliable, it at least means he isn't just some untraceable kid with a grudge who is making it all up. And I have seen him described on 2+2 as a respected pro, or some such phrase. At the very least, though, his source's reliability on the technical side has been brought into question. And this does make me wonder about the rest of it.


EDIT: To answer the question asked by jetset, as far as I know gank is simply a poster on pocket5s, I'm not aware of him holding any position there.

 

[mussy]

Having said all of which, I find point 5 in Welch's post rather perplexing.

5 I have worked in marketing in gaming for over 7 years and have over that time read on various forums about integrity. Speaking as an insider I have seen nothing even remotely dubiuous, why bother to fix something that makes millions playing it straight? Clearly there is always scope for bad apples to not play fair but I can't comment because I don't know the facts.

The 'why would they fix the game?' argument clearly holds no water now. And from this paragraph, he almost appears to be in denial about the whole AP scandal, and its importance to the future of the industry he is in.

 

[pokeraddict]

One point in Welch's response is revealing - that when Ultimate Bet was merged with Absolute Poker the majority of the UB people whom he vouches for left the merged companies. To me, that means that the shadowy and thus far unidentified figures in charge of Absolute Poker are also presumably running things at Ultimate Bet.

This is why I can't understand why some players and affiliates say that playing at UB is OK but AP is not. I seem to recall that this exit of management was common knowledge a year or so ago. We all know the now guilty cheaters played on UB, why would it be shocking for cheating or other shady activities to occur on UB?

 

[jetset]

This quote from Chris Welch's response to Gank - or it may have been an earlier post by someone else - on another thread on the forum (these multiple threads do make for confusion) is also interesting:

QUOTE: 1. It is possible to have up to 25 usernames registered to 1 players name on UB, they know about this and are ok with it as a company. UNQUOTE

One poster said that he had played on multiple accounts, although not at the same table and another said that, as a holder of multiple accounts he had been blocked when trying to play at the same table (ie attempting to play two positions using different account names at the same table.)

But getting back to the central thrust here, I would have to say that I agree that if UB has the same executive management that initially handled the AP crisis in such a suspicious manner, and continues to leave dangerous questions publicly unanswered, it should make one cautious around UB too.

 

[pokeraddict]

UB used to allow you to have up to 3 accounts until shortly after AP took over. People would create new accounts and often get rakeback if they did not have it before as it seems UB security was always behind the curve. I've never heard of the 25 number though. I know AP software did not allow people from the same IP to sit at the same table, at least the earlier versions. I seriously doubt this was changed as it would have sent a red flag up to the programmers.

 

[GaryWatson]

erm..scary thought. Im not happy with players allowed to create multiple accounts on different skins. I guess most do it for bonuses but its still an uncomfortable thought. Multiple accounts on the same site? No reason whatsoever. Maybe a name change, if that, but thats it. AP/UB have proved they have a superuser lack of integrity. Many of us will walk away from online poker in disgust. There are more people entering the game than leaving. AP/UB will use their inhouse affiliates and their newly found link power to profit from this sad situation. We all know they are dishonest but we keep giving them exposure. AP/UB = Pure greed

 

[GaryWatson]

UB used to allow you to have up to 3 accounts until shortly after AP took over. People would create new accounts and often get rakeback if they did not have it before as it seems UB security was always behind the curve. I've never heard of the 25 number though. I know AP software did not allow people from the same IP to sit at the same table, at least the earlier versions. I seriously doubt this was changed as it would have sent a red flag up to the programmers.

Again, that would open up a new can of worms. If a player has an account, more than likely it has been created through an affiliate. Now if the player goes for rakeback they have been ushered via a rakeback affiliate. Sites do not want to pay extra bonuses unless they have to. AP dont even honor charity. Now if a player is allowed to open an extra account (up to three). What would be the reason for it other than inhouse theft (stealing off existing affiliates)

 

[pokeraddict]

AP actually changed the 3 UB account rule. UB claimed you would always be tagged to your old affiliate but many found this was a way to get rakeback.

They weren't the only ones that allow you to have multiple accounts. For example some Cryptos will let you do the same thing but will not let you double dip bonuses or do anything else suspicious.

I have 3 accounts at UB and 5 accounts at AP. I had an account when I entered their prop program, 3 accounts in their prop program (at the time they would only let us play 4000 hands a week per nickname) and an account I was allowed to open for rakeback after I stopped propping.

OTOH opening up more then 1 account at Stars or Full Tilt will get both accounts locked.

 

[DoverPro]

Vegas 24/7 / Absolute?

Vegas 24/7 seems to be the same room as Absolute.

So I am assuming the same cheating applied to me when I played the room as a Vegas 24/7 player.

I quit playing both sites when I first heard the news about Absolute. I am signed up for both rooms, although strangely enough I seemed to win at Vegas24/7 a lot, and seldom at Absolute.

 

[pokeraddict]

VegasPoker247 is a skin of AP. They are owned by others and the biggest difference is that AP does not allow that skin to access the bad beat jackpot tables.

 

[mussy]

Sklansky post

David Sklansky has posted about AP on 2p2. In my view it is pretty much the worst post anybody has made on the subject yet. Perhaps I was just hoping for too much from him.

He clearly isn't moderately aware of the facts, hasn't even bothered to look at the hands on YouTube, or better still in that HH viewer, and seems breathtakingly complacent about the whole situation.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[pokeraddict]

I have to agree and I mod at 2+2. His first posts were joking about the whole thing and then they vanished. IMO he does not represent the opinion of 2+2.

 

[jetset]

Update

TOP ONLINE POKER ROOMS REACT TO ABSOLUTE POKER DEBACLE (Update)

Poker rooms say there is no real-time exposure of hole cards on their sites

Despite the paucity of progress reportage from Absolute Poker on investigations into the tournament cheating scandal that has engulfed the company for the past three months, it continues to be the subject of intense player discussion and media coverage.

After first denying that there was a problem when the player community exposed the cheating, Absolute Poker later admitted that a flaw in its software had enabled a company consultant to view other players' hole cards and win up to $800 000 unfairly. The company's Kahnawake licensing jurisdiction, which has ownership connections to the firm, ordered an investigation into the incident by Gaming Associates, which is ongoing.

This week the respected editor of Poker News, Earl Burton conducted an informal survey of major online poker sites, asking specifically if a reprise of the Absolute Poker debacle would be possible on their sites. Not surprisingly, the unanimous answer was "no."

Burton asked the sites if they had security or software procedures in place to prevent outside players from looking at hole cards, together with policies on employees playing on the sites, procedures for investigating allegations of irregularities and vigilance with regard to "out of the ordinary" play.

"Site staff responded within a few days, and what they said indicated that many of them are concerned about what occurred at Absolute," reports Burton.

Full Tilt Poker replied in an e-mail that went into great detail regarding the site's fraud prevention mechanisms.

"We wish to assure you that keeping our games safe and secure is of paramount importance to Full Tilt Poker," said a company security and fraud spokesman. "Our software was developed on this principle, and we continue to work to ensure this is the case. Due to the potential security risks, we made sure there was no way for a user, internally or externally, to see another player's hole cards in real time.

"We do store hole card information, though not in real time, so our Security and Investigations Team can later review any suspicious or questionable activity. In over three years of dealing cards, there has never been a security breach on Full Tilt Poker."

Full Tilt's security team continually monitors the site for potential issues, too: "We work hard around the clock to ensure the highest integrity and security of our games. Rest assured we investigate any suspicions from our players that someone may be using prohibited software on our site. Our security team is working 24/7 to ensure our players are playing in a fair environment."

PokerStars was adamant that what happened at Absolute could not occur on its site, advising: "We recognize that the online discussion may make some people generally doubt the security of other online poker sites. PokerStars' software was developed under strict security controls. Here are some facts about the PokerStars software and its development.

"In the early days of software development, the concept of having a program that could view hole cards live in order to help testing was discussed. [We] explicitly decided against that idea, specifically to avoid any potential problems like the one that is being discussed in the forums. That decision stands, and no such software has ever been developed in PokerStars software to view hole cards live in real time.

"PokerStars does record all of the hole cards in all real-money hands. This is an important tool to help us investigate fraud and collusion. However, this information is not accessible to anyone until after the conclusion of the hand; it is not transmitted to our database until all action is completed and the pot has been awarded.

"To be clear: Nobody at PokerStars can see or know the hole cards of any hand in progress. Nobody in senior management, none of the software developers, no support representatives. Nobody at all."

He then revealed the method PokerStars uses to manage changes to software, to reduce the risk of it being compromised internally.

"All software updates are reviewed by several people before being deployed. All sensitive changes are also personally reviewed by the chief software architect to help ensure they are stable and secure. In our company history of more than six years, we have had no indication of any breach that would allow anyone to see the hole cards of other players.

"We are aware that there are some programs that claim to make it possible to see other players' cards. We have investigated many of these programs and have not found any that do what they claim to do. Some of them are actually malware programs that compromise the security of whoever installs the software. But mostly they are simply scams; attempts to steal money from people who believe incorrectly that they will get a competitive edge. In truth, they do not compromise PokerStars security.

"We have a large team of Poker Specialists in our Support Team who review all suspicious situations and escalate to the Game Security team if they find anything, which in turn will escalate to the senior management team if any serious problems are found. The security and integrity of our games is of paramount importance to PokerStars."

Absolute Poker's sister site, Ultimate Bet, commented: "Ultimate Bet has been dealing cards on the Internet since the year 2000 and we have implemented strong safety measures to ensure the trust and security of our customers.

"We take the security of our system at Ultimate Bet very seriously. Whenever you access our web site or game any confidential information passed between us is encrypted. Our web site uses secure server technology to ensure that when you perform a cash-out, access hand histories, make deposits etc., your communications are protected using the same technology as online banking sites. All communications between your computer and our servers are also encrypted using public/private key encryption. These keys are changed frequently.

"Please rest assured that we follow up on any wrong playing offenders."

 

[KellyBlend]

Absolute Poker active and ongoing investigation

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Absolute Poker active and ongoing investigation

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission's investigation into the Absolute Poker situation is active and on-going. The Commission's agents, Gaming Associates, are in the process of finalizing its audit of AP's operations and will be submitting a report to the Commission of its findings. The Commission will review this report and decide the appropriate course of action. To avoid the possibility of jeopardizing its investigation, the Commission will not comment on this matter until such time as it has reached a decision. The Commission expects to receive a final copy of the audit report by December 7, 2007.

Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
22 November, 2007

 

[petkaymad]

Newb to the site here and happy to have found this site.

In light of all the goings on at AP, do people think users should avoid the Blackjack section of AP as well?

 

[The Dude]

Newb to the site here and happy to have found this site.

In light of all the goings on at AP, do people think users should avoid the Blackjack section of AP as well?

Avoid them as much as possible. It's not only the software malfunction that is under scrutiny, but their business ethics as well.

And anyone still advertising for these guys has a major screw loose.

 

[lots0]

Can you believe this???

Absolute Poker will be hosting a charity tournament on Saturday, December 1 at 20.30ET, to support the ONE Campaign to make poverty history.

Right after I read this, I had mixed feelings... I wanted to laugh... then I wanted to cry and now I just feel disgusted...

Absolute Poker "doing" a charity event for the poor.... Does anyone think this is really going to buy AP respectability after being caught red handed cheating players and then their lame efforts to cover up their cheating?

The advertisement for this AP charity event did not even have a link to www.one.org the organization that AP is supposedly helping out with this charity event. I think most webmasters will understand the import of NOT giving a link to a site your supposed to be helping out...

I guess the ethically challenged management at AP has decided that they can buy forgiveness by tossing a few coins to the poor.

 

[pokeraddict]

They don't exactly have a great rep when it comes to paying charities in a timely manner either.