Absolute Poker is absolutely rigged. (New evidence, near certain proof its rigged).

[pokeraddict]

AP has said they only keep hand histories for 2 months in a conversation with Mark Seif. I guess $20 worth of dvd's is too expensive or of course that could be done to get rid of evidence too, who knows. Another person has backed up this story. In other words there is no way they have the hand histories to go back far enough to fully investigate this or to give all the refunds.

 

[Mousey]

AP has said they only keep hand histories for 2 months in a conversation with Mark Seif. I guess $20 worth of dvd's is too expensive or of course that could be done to get rid of evidence too, who knows. Another person has backed up this story. In other words there is no way they have the hand histories to go back far enough to fully investigate this or to give all the refunds.

What!?!? That's not good... not good at all (she said, understatedly).

 

[lojo]

If they're licensed (they are) and the licensing authority does not have the ability to freeze their assets (they don't) and they only keep hand histories for two months (sure... and why?) then... well I'm out of words.

 

[jetset]

The coverups are almost as bad as the cheating itself. The industry would have been a lot better off had they said "An insider breached our system and they have been turned over to authorities" with a full explanation of what went down a month ago. The denying everything when they obviously knew everything and this bits and pieces crap along with the reports of AJ blackmailing them leads one to believe there must be so much dirt there well beyond what has been discovered. You know AP knows where to find these people that are in hiding and they most certainly need to go to jail so AP is involved in harboring these criminals.

I hope this goes as a lesson learned to the rest of the industry that if you have a huge scandal come clean. AP could have saved their reputation had they done so.

Their crisis control is surely one of the clumsiest and most deceptive and obvious yet. I agree that this sort of nonsense does them no credit and instead suggests deeper and perhaps darker conduct.

It does look from their latest statements that they have finally decided to load all of this on the fugitive AJ Green aka AJ Ripper aka Allan J. Grimard....but I sense from their pre-emptive strike that we're going to be hearing from AJ quite soon!

My own perception right now is one of a not very intelligent cover-up with ham-handed damage control that is actually exacerbating the issue.

 

[jetset]

One more thing since I don't think this has been posted here yet. A couple of long term posters with AP connections have reported that AP did a couple of other sleazy things that could get them in trouble in the US outside of this.

1. AP took a collection for a charity at the WSOP. AP asked that you make a donation for popcorn. AP ran off with the money and never donated it.

2. AP had a raffle for a new car. An insider at AP "won" the car.

For those that feel that the corruption is only at the top reported thefts like this prove otherwise. AP has had plenty of time to produce proof of where the money and car went.

This is the kind of greedy mistake that will eventually surface through insiders - management cannot hope to keep everyone on-mission in a deception at this level.

 

[pokeraddict]

A mod at 2+2 has posted here that he will donate the $7497 AP refunded him to the same charity AP donated the popcorn money to if AP can prove they ever did it. This should be interesting.

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[peteyweestro]

and yet despite all this they still have a decent amount of freaking traffic,the other day i was playing in a tourny at bodog and asked fellow players at the table if they had ever played at ap and only 2 had and neither one of them or anyone at the table heard about this fiasco..lol...incredible

 

[patient77]

Is it too much to ask for lotso to come join this thread to tell us all how ridiculous we are and how he needs further proof that cheating occurred? After all, the statements from AP could have been fabricated or tampered with, thus, there is no real substantial PROOF of any wrongdoing whatsoever.......


Still anxiously awaiting definitive proof of cheating a la our good ambassador of justice, lotso......

 

[jetset]

Lots0 announced his withdrawal from this discussion some posts ago...but in any event, surely the scandal itself is more important to examine in this thread than a detour into personal attacks?

 

[Mousey]

I'd love to see what charity they donated to. Also, I really, really want to know who won the car.

All of that is the kind of crap that players 'fear' and sometimes suspect goes on behind the scenes at online casinos and poker rooms. Sorry to say, this AP mess has really dampened any enthusiasm I had for jumping back into online play. Can any online casino really be trusted? Really?

 

[Casinomeister]

A mod at 2+2 has posted here that he will donate the $7497 AP refunded him to the same charity AP donated the popcorn money to if AP can prove they ever did it. This should be interesting.

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This I want to see.

And they made it into this week's webcast (again):
https://www.casinomeister.com/webcast/

 

[Rollo]

Are you serious that they only keep two months of hand histories? That in and of itself should be a big red flag to anyone... it costs virtually to save hand histories. I can't think of any good reasons for this and can think of many bad ones... is this commonplace in the online poker industry?

 

[pokeraddict]

Are you serious that they only keep two months of hand histories? That in and of itself should be a big red flag to anyone... it costs virtually to save hand histories. I can't think of any good reasons for this and can think of many bad ones... is this commonplace in the online poker industry?

When Poker Stars was asked they say they have every real money hand cash or tourney ever played there archived. I would imagine this would be industry standard but I guess the only way to know would be to email each room. If it wasn't industry standard before this you can be sure it will be now.

BTW CM, the poster that brought out the fake raffle for the truck has said they will bring out the offenders in that one too if AP doesn't come clean. Since he says "her" this must be a new accused from the others.

 

[mussy]

Here's

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's latest take. They report that Quebec local police are not involved, as had earlier been stated. But the main reason for posting this link is, I confess, the first line in the third paragraph, which I somehow find very funny.

 

[pokeraddict]

Here's

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's latest take. They report that Quebec local police are not involved, as had earlier been stated. But the main reason for posting this link is, I confess, the first line in the third paragraph, which I somehow find very funny.

That's great. Also it has been dug up that by KGC rules AP was suppose to hold onto data for 5 years. Either AP is lying to help cover up how long the fraud went on or they seem to be in violation of their gaming license's record keeping, not that it would be a surprise. I guess we will get word on whether that applies to this situation.

 

[SlotsWizard]

That's great. Also it has been dug up that by KGC rules AP was suppose to hold onto data for 5 years. Either AP is lying to help cover up how long rhe fraud went on or they seem to be in violation of their gaming license's record keeping, not that it would be a surprise. I guess we will get word on whether that applies to this situation.

Yup. Page 37 of the regulations, paragraph 245:

Gaming records kept for 5 years
245. Unless the information previously contained in the gaming record is kept
in another way under an approval of the Commission, an Authorised
Client Provider must keep a gaming record for five years after the end of
the transaction to which the record relates.

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[jetset]

A mod at 2+2 has posted here that he will donate the $7497 AP refunded him to the same charity AP donated the popcorn money to if AP can prove they ever did it. This should be interesting.

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No mention of that in the Absolute damage control statements, I notice! I somehow doubt he will be taken up on his offer.

 

[jetset]

Here's

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

's latest take. They report that Quebec local police are not involved, as had earlier been stated. But the main reason for posting this link is, I confess, the first line in the third paragraph, which I somehow find very funny.

That is a funny statement, but typical of the bumbling nature of Absolute's efforts to contain this mess. And they appear to have brought Marc Seif into the front line as well, despite the shadows that have been cast over his recent activities by a 2+2 poster.

He made another strange statement that will not earn him many friends when he said, in his capacity as an 'Absolute Poker spokespro':

"This type of incident can occur on PokerStars and FullTilt. It can happen anywhere. But the real issue is how the company handles the situation after the fact. I am waiting to see how Absolute Poker responds."

Fact is, it hasn't happened elsewhere, and would probably be better handled if it did!

As to whether Quebec police are investigating, I can clearly remember seeing a comment by a police or AG official saying this was under examination. I guess fear of the Mohawks combined with the lack of a criminal complaint from Absolute may have nixed that one, unfortunately. Or could it be that a police investigation may not be quite as cosy as one arranged 'internally' or through the KGC?

One thing is clear from the latest stream of information from these unidentified Absolute spokespeople - AJ Green is their chosen man to carry the can alright....and it appears from the latest update on the MSNBC story on this debacle that they are trying to take Scott Tom out of the equation:

"Adam Small, an official with Pocketfives.com, a community of online tournament poker players, said that he spoke with officials of Absolute Poker on Thursday night and was told that the rogue employee had deliberately used information pointing to Tom.

"What they said on the phone was that it was not Scott Tom ... and that he has sort of framed Scott Tom," he said.

"The Absolute Poker spokesman did not confirm that the employee had attempted to frame Tom, but he said, "No management was involved, and Scott Tom ... had no part in playing on any of these accounts."

"In a statement earlier this week, Absolute Poker said Tom "has not been involved with Absolute Poker for over a year and to the best of our knowledge, information and belief has not had access to any of Absolute Poker's systems, databases or information."

So if he's clean, how come Scott Tom has nothing to say?

 

[mussy]

Actually, gambling911.com has to be treated with a little caution, I think. It's not entirely clear to me how reliable they are. Although I linked to them earlier, I did so mainly for the comedy value of that line about unleveling the playing field. This morning, however, it occurs to me that the comment might well have been made deliberately, in full knowledge that their game was crooked, in which case it is no longer funny.

 

[jetset]

"Both the Quebec provincial police and officials at the Kahnawake Territory told ABCNEWS.com that they have launched investigations into the allegations."

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So much for 911's comment that this is false information.....

 

[jetset]

Fatal flaws went unattended....

FURTHER DETAILS ON ABSOLUTE POKER FLAW RELEASED (Update)

Why didn't management react to reported flaw following upgrade?

Absolute Poker spokesmen continued to feed selective details of the cheating debacle to chosen information portals as the week drew to a close, claiming that a software update identified as Version 8.0 and released in August this year contained unspecified flaws despite "...months of coding and design enhancements."

The spokesman went on to tell the information portal 911 that at least one 'high ranking official at Absolute Poker' abused pertinent information provided to him about these vulnerabilities in the online poker room's new software. It would seem that these flaws were reported by an ex-Nine.com technician working for Absolute, but astonishingly nothing was done about remedying the problem.

When allegations of cheating started to spread from the player community in September (see previous InfoPowa reports) the immediate reaction of Absolute Poker was to deny the allegations that certain players were able to see other players' hole cards, leading to cheating allegations.

Serge Ravitch, a New York lawyer turned poker player and a key member of the player sleuths who uncovered the Absolute Poker scam, said the company's response to the initial posts was "essentially to stonewall and deny any cheating had ever occurred or that the described events were even possible."

In its first statement on the allegations, Absolute said, "The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker's redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised.

"In other words, we have determined with reasonable certainty that it is impossible for any player or employee to see hole cards as was alleged."

However, with the help of a comprehensive record received from a support worker at Absolute Poker and assistance from other players, especially on poker dedicated expert fora like 2+2 and Pocket Fives, player-sleuths traced the IP address of a mysterious observer at the repetitive winner's table to Costa Rica and determined that the account was an internal Absolute Poker account.

They also cross-referenced an e-mail address used by the observer and found that it apparently belonged to Scott Tom, who they identified as either a past or current official and founder of Absolute Poker. Since then Absolute Poker has claimed that the 'rogue employee' who has been terminated but not formally identified actually set-up Scott Tom, whom they say has left the company.

Tom has dropped out of sight since the scandal broke.

Adam Small, an official with Pocketfives.com, said that he spoke with officials of Absolute Poker on Thursday night and was told that the rogue employee had deliberately used information pointing to Tom.

"What they said on the phone was that it was not Scott Tom ... and that he has sort of framed Scott Tom," he said.

In a statement early last week, Absolute Poker said Tom "has not been involved with Absolute Poker for over a year and to the best of our knowledge, information and belief has not had access to any of Absolute Poker's systems, databases or information."

By October, the fast-spreading Internet allegations of cheating led to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission opening an investigation, and Absolute finally admitting that something was amiss and under investigation.

Sources have told 911 that the flaw in Version 8.0 discovered by the Nine.com techie and reported to management was in fact exploited by one or more unidentified individuals within the company to cheat tournament players.

Increasingly portrayed as the villain of the piece, and an Absolute manager who has also disappeared from public sight and hearing, is former Nine.com manager AJ Green aka AJ Ripper aka Allan J. Grimard. 911 has published allegations that Green has a drug problem, and has repeatedly linked him to the scandal.

Mark Sief, a 'spokespro' for Absolute poker who has himself been challenged with cheating allegations in February last year on the 2+2 forum, weighed in to the fight just before the weekend with a startling statement that: "This type of incident can occur on PokerStars and FullTilt. It can happen anywhere. But the real issue is how the company handles the situation after the fact." Sief is said to have a minority share ownership in Absolute Poker.

Further allegations raised this week in the affair include player claims that Absolute Poker held charity drives and competitions but never disclosed to which charity the monies had been paid, and failed to respond to questions on the issue. One player offered to pay his returned monies from Absolute to the charity concerned if the poker company would identify it.

The company was also alleged to have asserted in a conversation with Sief that it only held hand history records for 2 months, a contravention of para 245 of page 37 of the requirements of its (Kahnawake) licensing jurisdiction, which demands that records be kept for five years.

 

[Rollo]

If 5 years is the standard, but AP is keeping hand histories for only 2 months (which seems an absurdly short time) that is very suspicious.

I hope someone starts investigating this issue by searching AP statements, posts, sent email etc... regarding their policy on hand histories and also by interviwing AP employees and to see if they had been keeping hand histories for more longer periods previously and start hitting them on that point.

If their policy suddenly changed to only keep hand histories for two months (where before they had been keeping it for much longer), that's pretty damning evidence that this was not limited to a couple months and could have been going on for years and that management was involved and is trying to cover it up.

If they aren't 100% forethcoming about the hand histories, you can be sure that this company is rotten to the core.

If it were a few rogue employees, out them, lay the cards on the table by disclosing all data publically and get it over with.

Sounds to me like they are trying to burn the evidence.

 

[Snowman]

...pending cover-up.

Ok, so AP have finally come clean and admitted the game was rigged (see open letter on 2+2) and assured us all of an in-depth independent investigation by the Kahnawake Gaming Commision. Sounds wonderful...or does it?

Absolute Poker's servers are located on the Kahnawake Indian reservation just outside Montreal (along with servers for another 80 operations as well as 6 very large casino complexes). The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) oversees and regulates all gambling and gaming on (and from) the reservation.
It is outside of local and national police juristiction.
Absolute Poker is owned by Tokwiro Enterprises ENRG which in turn is owned by ex-Grand Chief Joe Norton. (Absolute Poker also purchased a 100% stake in Ultimate Bet ifor $10 million in October 2006 with a further five payments totalling $140 million spread over the next five years).
Joe Norton effectively controls the Kahnawake reservation but more imprtantly effectively controls the KGC. We already know AP have lied in public statements on at least two ocassions regarding this matter before changing their minds and coming (at least partially) clean. But to then have the audacity to say any investigation will be independent is quite frankly farcical.
If AP have nothing to hide why not let the federal authorities and a truly independent auditor conduct the investigation?
There's no chance AP will ever allow this to happen.
They simply could afford it. There may be a possibility this has been going on for a number of years and any evidence to support such an allegation would bankrupt them and leave the KGC's reputation in tatters. Operators would flee the jurisiction like rats from a sinking ship.
So...ask yoursleves, can you really believe this will lead to a satisfactory conclusion to anyone other than AP?

 

[jetset]

Absolute answers the popcorn accusation

One more thing since I don't think this has been posted here yet. A couple of long term posters with AP connections have reported that AP did a couple of other sleazy things that could get them in trouble in the US outside of this.

1. AP took a collection for a charity at the WSOP. AP asked that you make a donation for popcorn. AP ran off with the money and never donated it.

2. AP had a raffle for a new car. An insider at AP "won" the car.

For those that feel that the corruption is only at the top reported thefts like this prove otherwise. AP has had plenty of time to produce proof of where the money and car went.

That 2+2 moderator who offered to make a contribution to the same charity as Absolute Poker's charity popcorn drive may have to write out a cheque today, if the following information from 911 is true.

One way to get answers from Absolute is to post here - you can guarantee that there'll be another anonymous spokesman making a scornful statement on it over at 911 within hours, it appears!

However - no mention of the car competition....yet.

QUOTE:

A Two Plus Two member who did a little investigative work of his own disputes the notion that the sale of popcorn was somehow part of a more elaborate scheme to siphon off monies.

"With regards to what has become known as "popcorngate" - I've recently been filled in on a number of the details. While I did not get the information from a confidential source, the person who gave it to me would prefer that his name is not used here. However, he is currently pretty high up in management in AP and is a credible source.

"There are a number of issues to address.

"First, Absolute Poker made the donation to "Sunrise Childrens Foundation" via wire transfer to a bank in Las Vegas. Not the best website I've seen, but you can check it out here:

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.

"Second, the donation was not made until February of 2007. The guy who I spoke with admits that the timeframe for the donation was not ideal considering that the donations were received in July/August-ish of 2006. I'm told that it was largely an administrative screw-up due to a changeover in marketing companies (ie, the people who ran it). Regardless of the explanation, obviously it should have been made sooner."

And there you have it. Even a few of the more hardcore Absolute detractors do not believe there is a kernel of truth to the so-called "popcorn money theft". Still, there are those who won't be be quick to swallow the above explanation.

It is reported that upwards of $10,000 was raised through the sale of popcorn
UNQUOTE

 

[pokeraddict]

It is understandable how this could have come out as unpaid if they paid it 7 month later. All these unofficial official statements are annoying and lower their already zero credibility. AP needs to be in the fora settling all the speculation about their ways and making official non bs releases. Until they do this will never settle.