Major Absolute Poker Issue

[dominique]

Why in the hell do they wish that my experience at their tables is great? I'm not a customer, unless they think I'm Mr. Wilson

Looks like someone is doing some hellacious bong hits in Costa Rica.

Someone trying to pretend to be you in order to hack your (nonexistant) account?

Are you checking into this?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

FRIST appears to be a genius after this thread and the recent WHITE LABEL AND BODOG THREADS..............He checks in

 

[Mousey]

I'm just checking my inbox tonight and YES, I have two more responses from Absolute Poker. This is after I acknowledged their first response (which I posted earlier). I wrote them back with the following:



So they wrote me back:



Who da ef is Mr. Wilson? And then this one:



Why in the hell do they wish that my experience at their tables is great? I'm not a customer, unless they think I'm Mr. Wilson

Looks like someone is doing some hellacious bong hits in Costa Rica.

Now, THAT, you see, is the sort of customer service reply (whether casino or poker room) to which I am accustomed. They don't actually read your email, the reply is canned and totally off topic, and they don't even know WTF you are when they hit the auto reply button.

I do hope they loosen up and come forth with some real information, though. This 'nothing to see here, move along' type reply just doesn't cut it.

 

[winbig]

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ​

This sums it up as well

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[pokeraddict]

AP is a small operation and their support has always been as bad as Bryan encountered. Can you imagine these same people concluded swiftly that nothing was wrong?

That Poker King statement is very true in my mind. If this came about about a big room the big room would be all over trying to disprove this with hand histories from the tournaments in question or hh's from the chip dumping sessions and explaining exactly why the hands were not chip dumping (even though they so obviously were). They would at least be making more detailed statements and more often, probably answering questions in the forums. Many poker rooms have reps at 2+2. Stars, Full Tilt, WPEX, Party and many Prima and Crypto skins come to mind. Absolute sends shills that get caught left and right but for some reason have never tried to create the same comunication with their players, even now when it is needed the most.

To this point AP has done nothing but make statements that are just not true in what appears to be a complete coverup.

 

[jetset]

Those irrelevant and idiotic responses to Bryan showcase a hopelessly untrained and unsupervised management response system at Absolute i.m.o. It does not appear as if the original emails were even read by the staff.

When it comes to continuous hype on their bad beat bonusing these guys are in your face 24/7, but it appears that when there is a problem that is of genuine concern to their customers and the industry at large they don't care to give it the courtesy of real attention and a properly considered and professional response.

To say this is alarming is an understatement.

 

[satchmo]

This is the problem with companies today, when something goes terrible wrong, they just cant handle it.
They want to sweep it under the rug, and continue like before.

If i was the owner, i would have one guy only to read all customer complaints about this mess, and investigate, and try to fix the whole thing up. Couse in the end it is the customers that makes them earn some cash, so they can get a salary.

And i just have to say i love the response to Bryan.
This is the most important evidence of incompetence from them...

I wonder how many have stopped playing there since this mess started.


Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero....

 

[chuchu59]

Bryan,

There is absolutely (no pun intended) nothing wrong with their reply. They may have a customer with the name of Bryan Wilson or even Bryan Wilson Bailey and since you mentioned poker news they are right in suggesting you will be updated with news from them..... NOT. This is really bringing customer service to new levels and is again (absolutely) great in frustrating the customer so that you will never contact them again. This trick works.

 

[lots0]

So has anyone but me had a independent math guy take a look at this so called evidence?

Did your independent Math guys laugh at the supposed evidence, like my math guy did?

If Absolute Poker software only receives and does not transmit the data of whats in your opponents hands (standard security procedure found in all online poker software), how is it possible for your opponent to read your hand information?

Please don't let the facts get in the way of your trashing AP and of making false accusations.

Pokeraddict, if your such a player advocate as you say, then why are you not the person getting the independent math person or independent programmer or any independent verification of ANY KIND to back up your accusations?

And I still believe that someone is getting paid for making these accusations...

 

[pokeraddict]

And I still believe that someone is getting paid for making these accusations...

So you're saying a US friendly poker room is paying people to fake evidence in an attempt to take down a relatively small poker room? Stars? Full Tilt? Oh that's right, you've already accused Bodog of it. As if they don't have their own problems already.

I also just thought of something else AP has done. It's interesting that AP did not include the skins in the BBJ. This essentially destroyed the skin's businesses, not unlike what Party did to their old skins. It forced players that want access to the main player base to play on AP. What a great way to treat your business partners. Not that it is surprising, they already did the same thing ot their affiliates.

Maybe Lots0 thinks these skins could be in on the conspiracy too? Of course they are not but it was just something else that came to mind of why AP cannot be trusted. They can't even treat their licensees right and they get a cut of that action.

 

[lots0]

Maybe lots0 would like to see if pokeraddict has any independent confirmation of any of your accusations against Absolute Poker...

Maybe lots0 wants to know how people are reading opponents hands, when that information is not even transmitted from AP and the AP software you download to your hard drive is not set up to receive it, even if it were somehow transmitted???

Maybe Lots0 wants to know how you came to such bizarre conclusions based on the mathematically impossibly small data samples you are using???

They can't even treat their licensees right...

Do we have any licensees that will back up what pokeraddict is saying here? Or are these just more unproven and unjust accusations and rumors??

 

[GaryWatson]

I think I will agree with everyone.

80% of AP income/players come from 20% affiliates.

For talking sake, we will call it the 80/20 rule

Now there is a trust issue

For arguments sake we will call it an abuse of power.

Affiliates becoming affiliate managers and staff members. They totally anialate a site & move on to the next suckers.

Same people all the time.

Do i think there was dishonesty?

Yes, same people. Same theft, just different situation.

 

[GaryWatson]

To clear my last post up a bit.

It's no an AP problem, its a industry issue. It has been around a while, they have just got better at being caught.

Pokerstars taking away their stats? Difficult one but it has 2 answers.

Big question :
Why would an affiliate manager take a salary of 50K a year, when as an affiliate he could earn that in a month?

 

[pokeraddict]

Maybe lots0 would like to see if pokeraddict has any independent confirmation of any of your accusations against Absolute Poker...

There has been endless independant confirmation, in fact I'm just a believer, not the one making the accusations.

Maybe lots0 wants to know how people are reading opponents hands, when that information is not even transmitted from AP and the AP software you download to your hard drive is not set up to receive it, even if it were somehow transmitted???

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean the "super account" theory I'm less inclined to believe that it was hacked. With how AP has blown this I start to lean more and more that they are in on it or at least an insider. I don't know how it happened, I just know it did.

Do we have any licensees that will back up what pokeraddict is saying here? Or are these just more unproven and unjust accusations and rumors??

The fact there the skins lost a vast majority of their available games because of what AP did speaks for itself doesn't it? FWIW now UB has BBJ tables too. I can only imagine their skins don't have access to it either.

AP had to bail out a licensee by sending players to the WSOP as promised by Goal Poker when they went bust. I'm not sure if they had to pay players though. Although it is pure speculation I'm sure AP learned a good lesson there although that was under previous management which ironically owns a skin now stuck with a small % of the games they once were able ot offer their players. The whole thing is a page out of Party Poker's book. I doubt this will have the happy ending though for the skins like Party's short lived ex skin network. I can't remember what it was called.

We're not going to see eye to eye on this but I think this post at 2+2 pretty much sums it up I think.

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[chuchu59]

So has anyone but me had a independent math guy take a look at this so called evidence?

Did your independent Math guys laugh at the supposed evidence, like my math guy did?

If Absolute Poker software only receives and does not transmit the data of whats in your opponents hands (standard security procedure found in all online poker software), how is it possible for your opponent to read your hand information?

Please don't let the facts get in the way of your trashing AP and of making false accusations.

Pokeraddict, if your such a player advocate as you say, then why are you not the person getting the independent math person or independent programmer or any independent verification of ANY KIND to back up your accusations?

And I still believe that someone is getting paid for making these accusations...

Someone getting paid for making these accusations? I dont understand. You are constantly deriding Pokeraddict for trashing AP and not getting sufficient evidence to back his remarks but at the same time you are making such groundless statements. How would you feel if I said that you were paid to defend AP at all costs. Do I need a Math guy to prove it?

 

[GaryWatson]

Are AP close to being rogued? Their responses are there for all to see. That is the evidence. That is their credibility.

 

[peteyweestro]

either the whole online poker playing world is wrong and lotso is the right one or he is a ap shill it seems as he is so adamant they are innocent and every one else is adament they are wrong and should be out of biz

 

[pokeraddict]

When it comes to continuous hype on their bad beat bonusing these guys are in your face 24/7, but it appears that when there is a problem that is of genuine concern to their customers and the industry at large they don't care to give it the courtesy of real attention and a properly considered and professional response.

UB (owned by AP) just started a BBJ today. Expect the spam to double now. Of course these same people will have no idea what you're talking about when you ask them about all the BS coming out of AP.

 

[jetset]

Well made point

QUOTE: I also just thought of something else AP has done. It's interesting that AP did not include the skins in the Bad Beat Jackpot initiative.

This essentially destroyed the skin's businesses, not unlike what Party did to their old skins. It forced players that want access to the main player base to play on AP. What a great way to treat your business partners. Not that it is surprising, they already did the same thing ot their affiliates. UNQUOTE

Point well made, Pokeraddict!

 

[The Dude]

Big question :
Why would an affiliate manager take a salary of 50K a year, when as an affiliate he could earn that in a month?

Affiliates who make this much are few and far between. In fact, I could probably honestly say that only a handful make this much - especially with how the affiliate market fell apart last year. A majority make a few hundred, maybe a few k a month (if they are lucky).

And I don't really see this as an affiliate issue anyway.

Are AP close to being rogued? Their responses are there for all to see. That is the evidence. That is their credibility.

Well, checking my inbox this morning, they haven't gotten back to me why they thought I was Mr. Wilson, nor have they shown me that they are taking this situation as serious as they should. I believe the first response from them was merely lip service.

If a casino/poker room chooses not to address serious player issues, then there is a problem here.

 

[SlotsWizard]

These companies which are voluntarily damaging their reputation couldn't have chosen a better time to do so. And that concludes the sarcastic portion of this post.

Did it ever occur to Absolute and Atlantic Lounge (excuse the cross-post) that they need to maintain an appearance of integrity, honesty and fairness if they want a better chance of getting online gambling regulated in the US?

They might as well just go to Washington to join Harrah's and the NFL to lobby against online gambling.

 

[The Dude]

This just in.

Dear Bryan,

Thank you for contacting us.

Rest assured that our Investigation Team is working on this case and they will take actions against the offenders.

For further references please contact us from the registered email address.

Thanks for playing at Absolute Poker! If there is anything else we can help you with, please let us know. We are here for you!

Sincerely,

Pablo

So it looks like AP is admitting that some players are in the wrong - the "offenders".

 

[SeattleSinner]

AP needs to be rogued. The response which they have given this situation shows their true colors.

 

[pokeraddict]

This just in.

So it looks like AP is admitting that some players are in the wrong - the "offenders".

So I'm confused. AP has told players the investigation is over and there was no wrongdoing. Now I guess they have reopened it?

 

[dealer wins]

After this anyone who plays on AP at high stakes (actually just plays on AP) needs their head examined.

The evidence is damming and I think will destroy the site totally.

These are the kind of things that keep the "is is rigged online" arguments going year after year.

One thing I always remind myself when playing online is that where there is money involved and opportunity to get away with it there is ALWAYS a risk of being cheated even in the biggest and most trusted places.

 

[pokeraddict]

After more thinking I've realized if AP is now admitting there are offenders to punish then does that mean players will be getting their losses back that were stolen from them? It's obviously the right thing to do now. Hopefully this is really an admission of the problem and not some BS CS response.

 

[jetset]

Good point, especially in the wake of the recent Full Tilt Poker matter.

Assuming they are not implicated (and that is not yet clear imo), Absolute Poker really needs to bring this issue under control by making professionally constructed and considered statements from the top management that address the issues that have arisen and what the company is doing about it.

If they have reopened the investigation that may be a good sign of accepting at last that there is a need for more action than bland assurances, but they need to be upfront about it, informing players as to who is carrying out the investigation, what areas are being examined, what concrete action has been taken.

Then follow up with progress reports as part of their crisis management, and finally apply what has been found to deliver a fair and player-sensitive remedy.

 

[GaryWatson]

My problem with commenting in this thread is that I already had an ongoing issue with AP. That does not have a hope in hell of being resolved because it is an individual against a site. I have enough to show that they are in the wrong. They have proven that they do not care. They have shown that it takes 1000's upon 1000's of negative threads on the internet to even consider a response no matter how damning the evidence is.

Yes, I could be considered biased but with this case all I have to go on is the evidence shown on the hand histories and response from AP regarding the matter.

The list of negatives on the trust value of the site just keep growing. I could do a search and find far more unresolved issues, previous to the hole card case.

Once again, they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. AP have no interest in cooperating

 

[SeattleSinner]

So I'm confused. AP has told players the investigation is over and there was no wrongdoing. Now I guess they have reopened it?

AP didn't even know who they were talking to in Bryan's previous email. IMHO the last email he got could have been some CS person just saying what Bryan wanted to hear. I'm taking the last email with a grain of salt.

 

[I Like Pie]

I haven't heard anything about anyone contacting The Kahnawake Gaming Commission. Has anyone done this yet and has anyone had a response from them?

I e-mailed them twice about this issue and they have not responded to either of my e-mails. I have had to contact them before and they responded to those issues but I guess they are ignoring this because I've yet to hear anything from them.

It would just be sick if this issue was ignored by them.

 

[KellyBlend]

Kahnawake Commission / Communal Arbitration Procedure

The victims can submit a formal complaint to the Commission or have the matter addressed and resolved throught the Kahnawake Communal Arbitration Procedure according to Sec. 198 ff. of the

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. Isnt this the correct way and the only chance to clear up this case?

 

[lots0]

I haven't heard anything about anyone contacting The Kahnawake Gaming Commission. Has anyone done this yet and has anyone had a response from them?

I e-mailed them twice about this issue and they have not responded to either of my e-mails.

Maybe you should email Stephen Harper (Canada's current Prime Minister) as well, you'd have a better chance of getting a response from him... (sarcasm)

Seriously:
So just what is there to respond too?

Why should the KGC (or anyone) respond to a few accusations that don't hold up after close independent examination...





Regulations enacted by the Kahnaw:ke Gaming Commission

(please Note the bolded area at the bottom of the quote)

Complaints and dispute
resolution process
198. All Authorised Client Providers must make adequate provision for
receiving and addressing any complaints, including the provision of an
appropriate dispute resolution process. The dispute resolution process
must include an opportunity for the complainant to have recourse to the
Commission or to the Kahnaw:ke Communal Arbitration Procedure.
Records of complaints 199. All Authorised Client Providers must maintain adequate records of all
complaints and disputes it receives and such records must be provided
to the Commission in a timely fashion.
Commission’s logo must be
displayed
200. The Commission's logo must be prominently displayed on the
Authorised Client Provider's website, hyper-linked to the Commission’s
email address, with a notification that complaints may be addressed
directly to the Commission.
Complaints to Commission 201. Any person who is not satisfied with the manner in which his or her
complaint has been addressed by an Authorised Client Provider, or who
prefers to make his or her complaint directly to the Commission, may
32
submit the complaint to the Commission or have the matter addressed
and resolved through the Kahnaw:ke Communal Arbitration Procedure.
Kahnaw:ke Communal
Arbitration Procedure
202. In the event a person elects to have his or her complaint addressed and
resolved through the Kahnaw:ke Communal Arbitration Procedure:
(a) both the complainant and the relevant Authorised Client
Provider must participate fully and in good faith in the processes
set out in the Kahnaw:ke Communal Arbitration Procedure;
(b) the resolution that is reached by through the Kahnaw:ke
Communal Arbitration Procedure is final and binding on both
the parties and the Commission; and
(c) the Commission will not inquire into, hear or otherwise make
any decision in relation to the complaint.
Result of proceeding 203. The Commission is entitled to receive written notice from one or both of
the parties to a proceeding under the Kahnaw:ke Communal Arbitration
Procedure, of the result of such proceeding.
Form of complaints 204. A complaint must be in writing and must contain clear and unequivocal
information about the complainant’s identity, and provide all the relevant
details that gave rise to the complaint and the steps that were taken to
address the complaint with the Authorised Client Provider.
Investigations 205. As soon as practicable after a complaint is received, the Commission
will inquire into the substance of the complaint and will undertake such
investigations as may be required under the circumstances.
Details of complaints 206. Unless the Commission in its sole discretion directs otherwise, the
details of all complaints, including the identity of the complainant, will be
provided to the Authorised Client Provider against which the complaint is
made for response.
Response to complaint 207. The Authorised Client Provider must provide to the Commission a full
and detailed response to the complaint within seven (7) days, or such
other time as the Commission may direct.
Additional information 208. To assist in the resolution of a complaint, the Commission may request
additional information from the complainant, the Authorised Client
Provider or any third person, including an Approved Agent.
Decision 209. After its investigations of a complaint are complete, the Commission will:
(a) dismiss the complaint as unfounded;
(b) uphold the complaint in whole or in part;
(c) direct a Authorised Client Provider to take any steps the
Commission may, in its sole discretion, deem necessary to
resolve the complaint;
(d) direct a Authorised Client Provider to pay the costs incurred by
the Commission in its investigation of the complaint; or
(e) issue any other directions or take any other steps as the
Commission, in its sole discretion, deem appropriate under the
circumstances.
Vexatious complaints 210. Notwithstanding any of provision of this Part, the Commission may
dismiss a complaint without an inquiry or investigation if the
Commission, in its sole discretion, is satisfied that a complaint is on its
face vexatious, unfounded or does not fall within the Commission’s
scope of authority.

 

[The Dude]

What I am concerned about is the apparent aloofness of the poker room. These are very serious issues and the poker room has not responded satisfactorily:

https://www.casinomeister.com/webcast/
https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

 

[lots0]

What I am concerned about is the apparent aloofness of the poker room. These are very serious issues and the poker room has not responded satisfactorily

I agree CM.
AP has not been acting as I (or you) believe they should in this matter.

To be honest, I am not even getting any kind of a response from them about this threw my personal affiliate channels. Which tells me, that upper management has told everyone to keep very very quiet on this issue.

What I believe is happening is that AP management is hoping (and praying) that this will all blow over. I think AP's management believes that if they respond in anyway it will hurt them more than they have already been hurt...

Just look how bad and incompetent they appeared because of the emails you already received from them in response to your inquiries about these accusations.

 

[I Like Pie]

Maybe you should email Stephen Harper (Canada's current Prime Minister) as well, you'd have a better chance of getting a response from him... (sarcasm)

Seriously:
So just what is there to respond too?

Why should the KGC (or anyone) respond to a few accusations that don't hold up after close independent examination...

Quit it already, your gimmick is getting old.

 

[chuchu59]

Quit it already, your gimmick is getting old.

I think he's getting the point. See the post above.

 

[lots0]

Quit it already, your gimmick is getting old.

Ya, I know pointing out that these accusations have no bases in fact is getting old.

I am still waiting for anyone to provide any evidence at all to support these accusations that can't be discounted/discredited by an independent examination by an expert.

I think he's getting the point. See the post above.

Hmmm... If your point is that I now agree with you that AP has/had superuser accounts that could read opponents hands.... I don't.
The whole idea is just silly and easily dis proven by an examination of the AP client you have on your hard drive (if you don't know how too, you can ask any good programmer to do it for you).

I have yet to see evidence that the so called "Chip Dumping" is anything more than someone with more money than sense gone on tilt.

Do I believe AP's management has handled this in about the worst possible way they could... you bet I do.

 

[GaryWatson]

I agree CM.
AP has not been acting as I (or you) believe they should in this matter.

To be honest, I am not even getting any kind of a response from them about this threw my personal affiliate channels. Which tells me, that upper management has told everyone to keep very very quiet on this issue.

What I believe is happening is that AP management is hoping (and praying) that this will all blow over. I think AP's management believes that if they respond in anyway it will hurt them more than they have already been hurt...

Just look how bad and incompetent they appeared because of the emails you already received from them in response to your inquiries about these accusations.

I agree.

Beyond all the accusations the answer lies in the hand histories.

Affiliates either refuse to acknowledge, or offer support to AP in the fear of losing income.

Reputable players come out and complain with a decent amount of evidence. It is ignored in the hope that it will fade away?????

Yes, this will die and be forgotten in small stakes but the big fish wont go near unless AP takes their heads out of their asses

 

[lots0]

Affiliates either refuse to acknowledge, or offer support to AP in the fear of losing income.

Being an affiliate has nothing to do my voicing my opinion.

I was making five figures a month from Casino Rewards... Before I Rogued them and dropped them like a bad habit. I also gave up at least four figures a month in residual income from CR as well.

I Rogued Cpays after I made $23,000+ from them in the first six months of the year...

Money is NOT the most important thing in the world (at least to me).

 

[jinnia]

I am, or was an affiliate of AP, they are gone from my sites.

And about a 'superuser', doubtful. With almost complete silence
from AP, I believe they were involved.

'And it's not a case of bots or collusion; it's both - when bots collude, they do so more cleverly than humans. Programmers can seat multiple bots on the same table(s) and have them read each other's cards via a third-party server.'

Don't poker rooms scan players computers for suspicious running programs??

Was it a 'player' using bots, or AP themself?

 

[BBKPoker]

'

Don't poker rooms scan players computers for suspicious running programs??

Was it a 'player' using bots, or AP themself?

Don't have an answer for your second question.

As for your first, yes, most poker sites scan for suspicious running processes, however this isn't particularly hard to spoof with push/pull or screenscraping programs. Win Hold'em is an excellent example of a bot that is more or less undetectable by most current online casinos.

There are other ways of combating bots. Without commenting too much into which casino does what, I can say a very effective anti-bot protection is to simply move the bet/fold/call/raise buttons on a somewhat random algorithm 4-5 pixels in different directions on each player action. This cripples bots that read off of screenshot or screenscraped coordinates, which is the majority of functioning bots.

The second is simply peer review. With people who datamine literally every table of a specific limit of poker information using Poker Tracker, its very easy to look at large sample sizes with players who have nearly identical Poker Tracker stats and who never sit together or have other suspicious play patterns. This is how the recent Absolute Poker fiasco has come about.

 

[I Like Pie]

It's over a week and the KGC did not respond to my e-mail. You gotta love when the body that regulates many online gaming sites chooses to ignore this. If they don't look into a matter like this what do they do? What a joke.

 

[pokeraddict]

It's over a week and the KGC did not respond to my e-mail. You gotta love when the body that regulates many online gaming sites chooses to ignore this. If they don't look into a matter like this what do they do? What a joke.

Don't expect a response from them. If you do somehow get one it will be useless. AP knows this and is certainly part of why they have tried to sweep this under the rug.

Of course AP is still spamming at 2+2 while ignoring all of the threads about this. It shows what a classless company they are.

 

[jinnia]

Don't have an answer for your second question.

As for your first, yes, most poker sites scan for suspicious running processes, however this isn't particularly hard to spoof with push/pull or screenscraping programs. Win Hold'em is an excellent example of a bot that is more or less undetectable by most current online casinos.

There are other ways of combating bots. Without commenting too much into which casino does what, I can say a very effective anti-bot protection is to simply move the bet/fold/call/raise buttons on a somewhat random algorithm 4-5 pixels in different directions on each player action. This cripples bots that read off of screenshot or screenscraped coordinates, which is the majority of functioning bots.

The second is simply peer review. With people who datamine literally every table of a specific limit of poker information using Poker Tracker, its very easy to look at large sample sizes with players who have nearly identical Poker Tracker stats and who never sit together or have other suspicious play patterns. This is how the recent Absolute Poker fiasco has come about.

You know BBKPoker, if I had an answer to the second question, would I be asking it??

Thanks for rest of information.

 

[Snowman]

Furthre issues

Ive read with interest the evolving developments in the Absolute Poker story but waited until now to enter the debate. My reasons for doing so will become evident.
Firstly a response to the poster who required independent evidence. I gathered as much information as I could from this and a variety of other websites and had discussions with three friends of mine. Each is independent and each a recognised expert in their field.
1. Mr. P*** H******** (Barrister)
2. Dr. J*** T******* (Lecturer in Applied Mathematics)
3. Dr. D** S**** (Lecturer in Computer Science)
Secondly, the following does not necessarily constitute my personal opinion and should be taken as nothing more than the results of analytical debate. You can draw your own conclusions.
Their responses were as follows:
1. There is probably sufficient documentary and empirical evidence to instigate a prosecution (by the losing participants in the relevant games), civil or otherwise. However, there are serious issues regarding jurisdiction so it would be wise to seek counsel from a specialist in multi-jurisdictional law by anyone contemplating this course. However, it would be reasonable to assume that AbsolutePoker.com are not directly to blame; a disgruntled employee perhaps, but probably not the corporate entity. There is a strong argument they too are victims in this affair.
2. After studying as many table deals in the suspect games as I could find (presumably all of them) it was calculated the statistical probability of the individual concerned making the correct decision (particularly on the river card) in the sequence he achieved (by chance) was around 43.0467 million to 1 against. This was based on a randomly dealt standard deck of 52 cards with live cards as base. For comparison, DNA testing probability requires a comparison statistic of 1 in 100 million (or thereabouts).
3. The third discussion centred on technical feasibility. Its somewhat protracted but Ill do my best to explain our conclusions. The initial questions were obviously: could the site be compromised and could other players hole cards be visible to another participant? The simple answeryes. It is even technically possible they could see the entire hand before its completely dealt. We dismissed the notion that AP had a superuser account as this would open up an internal can of worms that couldnt possibly be harnessed and concentrated instead on cracking. Let us assume AP runs a 128bit seed (although 64bit would not be out of the question) for their Random Number Generator (RNG). Ordinarily this would be sufficient to deflect an attack, but what if a cracker obtained the timing algorithms? There are around 4 billion possible card shuffle combinations in a 52-card deck so it would require a system at least equal if not superior to the client. However, five cards are known after the flop so this reduces the figure considerably, if there were just complicity at a single table and, say, two additional players were in cahoots, the potential shuffle combinations reduces once more - drastically. The other two players do not need to remain in the game until its conclusion but simply stay long enough for the cracker system to obtain the timing sequence and pair it unison with the RNG. Ok, you may shriek, but this would still take days (if not weeks) to obtain the correct seed. Now consider this; the individual was using the site unsuccessfully for a period prior to his unexplained and sudden winning streak. What if this time was spent synchronising the system? It certainly offers a plausible answer. Furthermore, many sites still use their system clock as the seed for their RNG (split into milliseconds per day) so the possible combinations reduces once more to a manageable cracking level (86 million for the seed and less than 1 million for the combination). Cigital famously used this as the basis for breaching an Internet poker site in 1999. Are we to believe the exercise couldnt be duplicated in 2007? Maybe AP should employ the services of Cigital, theyre the acknowledged world leaders in online gambling security and would certainly help to restore APs reputation, not to mention providing a definitive answer. However, to continue with the technicalities in detail would generate a thread the size of War and Peace but that is not the point. The contention is that the system could be compromised, no matter how unlikely. With complicity from an insider it just makes it easier. However, there is one burning question: if the site was even possibly being breached, why the hell didnt AP suspend the account?
4. Our final chat concerned betting patterns which were quite frankly outrageous but as this has been covered extensively on this site already I suggest you go through the archive pages as explanations have been given far more competently than I can offer here.
It was generally agreed something untoward happened and the authorities should be alerted even if it means the repercussions would be far reaching. But, is this an isolated case or just the tip of a very large iceberg?
This is by no means definitive and opens questions from two directions: those towards the individual and those towards AP. The first category is largely semantic but the second far more important for everyone concerned. Indeed, it should be argued that it is not the questions to AP that are paramount but rather their responses. It would be interesting to hear your reactions from each side of the camp regarding this matter, both those clearly affiliated with AP (to whatever degree) and those with only a perfunctorily interest. Ill be happy to post again to clarify or expand on any of these points as best I can. Ill leave the final word to one of my colleagues who noted after analysing everything we had. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

 

[jinnia]

You know BBKPoker, if I had an answer to the second question, would I be asking it??

Thanks for rest of information.

Sorry for first line in my post, I misread what BBKPoker wrote, I apologize!

 

[GaryWatson]

Was their any evidence of bots at AP? Style of play, etc.

From what I saw from the hand histories, I would never have guessed the bot theory. This was someone sitting behind a screen who had too much money, stupidity & a lottery winners luck, or he was just looking at everyones hole cards.

Don't have an answer for your second question.

As for your first, yes, most poker sites scan for suspicious running processes, however this isn't particularly hard to spoof with push/pull or screenscraping programs. Win Hold'em is an excellent example of a bot that is more or less undetectable by most current online casinos.

There are other ways of combating bots. Without commenting too much into which casino does what, I can say a very effective anti-bot protection is to simply move the bet/fold/call/raise buttons on a somewhat random algorithm 4-5 pixels in different directions on each player action. This cripples bots that read off of screenshot or screenscraped coordinates, which is the majority of functioning bots.

 

[Adanthar]

Josem on 2+2 has posted several graphs comparing the cheaters' Pokertracker stats with those in a large datamined database. This is the most striking:

Expired Image

The horizontal line is the % of the time the player saw a flop. The vertical is their winrate in BB per 100 hands. This chart represents the data for every player in that database who has played between 500-800 hands.

 

[pokeraddict]

That chart is crazy and should convince anybody not already convinced. That is really all the evidence one needs to prove this.

 

[ThodorisK]

Excuse me, I havent read the thread yet.
I guess you have all eliminated the possibility that it is the casino itself which is doing the cheating, hah?