A Meditation On Being Anti-Casino

[maxd]

If casinos weren't faced daily, with scammers/trickster/cheats, but who only had HONEST players, then the need for T&Cs would be obsolete. But this will never happen.

I reckon one of the first sets of T&Cs were the 10 Commandments. If humans weren't full of human nature then even those would have been unnecessary. Yet here we are, a few thousand years on doing the dirt we do. So it goes.

The only way to insure YOURSELF from being free of entrapment from T&Cs, is to play bonusfree ....

Sadly even that isn't true anymore: forced bonuses, capped withdrawals on small deposits for low rollers, "manager" bonuses given without notice, etc, mean that even the no-bonus crowd is in the game, whether they like it or not.

 

[bpb]

Just to add my worthless two cents...

Casinos have been FORCED into to writing these mega-paged, mind-boggling, need-to-be-a-lawyer-to-understand T&Cs because human nature has created players who have created every possible scenerio from playing honestly to plying every trick imaginable. (Now how's that for a run-on sentence???) There was a member here just a few months ago who posted about hacking one of the casinos/softwares/games (?) to place bets that shouldn't have been allowed. It's players' like this that T&Cs are molded after. Or the player who "accidently" makes 170 spins@ $110, or the player who has multiple accounts at a casino but "geesh" I forgot I already took the SUB and opened another new account, etc.,etc.,etc...

If casinos weren't faced daily, with scammers/trickster/cheats, but who only had HONEST players, then the need for T&Cs would be obsolete. But this will never happen. The only way to insure YOURSELF from being free of entrapment from T&Cs, is to play bonusfree or to not play at all.

And you've fallen into the brainwashed mentality that HONEST players don't accidentally set the betsize too high. And that HONEST players don't forget that they already signed up at a casino a few years back. And that HONEST players don't mistakenly play a game that restricted due to their deposit amount/deposit method/country of origin/country of residence/etc.

Again, these and a multitude of other things can be caught by simple software checks. But casinos don't want to implement them, because it would cut off a revenue stream.

 

[Simmo!]

But casinos don't want to implement them, because it would cut off a revenue stream.

*Some* casinos. And those bring down the reputation of the rest. Like *some* players act fraudulently and that's detrimental to the honest players. Ineffective regulation.

 

[ksech]

And you've fallen into the brainwashed mentality that HONEST players don't accidentally set the betsize too high. And that HONEST players don't forget that they already signed up at a casino a few years back. And that HONEST players don't mistakenly play a game that restricted due to their deposit amount/deposit method/country of origin/country of residence/etc.

Again, these and a multitude of other things can be caught by simple software checks. But casinos don't want to implement them, because it would cut off a revenue stream.

I'm not saying accidents don't happen. Accidents DO happen and an honest player will go to CSR immediately and explain, NOT wait until 100+ spins go by, or open a multitude of accounts. It's a players' responsibility to CHECK which games are allowed if they are going to take a bonus. What's wrong with going to CSR and asking if perhaps you may have played there before, before you open an account? Maybe I AM one of the "brainwashed" mentality, but at least I know I don't have to worry. I read T&Cs. If I did play a bonus I carefully read the rules or asked questions before I played so I understood. A player has to take some responsibility too.

A lot has changed in the last 10-15 years since I started to gamble online. It's not fun anymore, so I stopped playing almost 2 years ago. I still read though, I sympathize with the players. Casinos who "spring" surprise bonuses on players' should be outlawed, IMO. And having maxcaps on withdrawals is bogus. There's a lot that isn't fair in this business. But as long as there are players to deposit, online gambling will continue to flourish.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just to add my worthless two cents...

Casinos have been FORCED into to writing these mega-paged, mind-boggling, need-to-be-a-lawyer-to-understand T&Cs because human nature has created players who have created every possible scenerio from playing honestly to plying every trick imaginable. (Now how's that for a run-on sentence???) There was a member here just a few months ago who posted about hacking one of the casinos/softwares/games (?) to place bets that shouldn't have been allowed. It's players' like this that T&Cs are molded after. Or the player who "accidently" makes 170 spins@ $110, or the player who has multiple accounts at a casino but "geesh" I forgot I already took the SUB and opened another new account, etc.,etc.,etc...

If casinos weren't faced daily, with scammers/trickster/cheats, but who only had HONEST players, then the need for T&Cs would be obsolete. But this will never happen. The only way to insure YOURSELF from being free of entrapment from T&Cs, is to play bonusfree or to not play at all.

No, they had a choice.

They could instead have taken the software design route, and enforced many things like bet and game restrictions this way. This would have left most things covered by the software, and much less that needed to be covered in the terms and conditions, which as a result would not have been so bad, and a player would have to REALLY try in order to break them, such as by coding their own client in order to bypass the restrictions.

You often accidentally hit max bet instead of spin, but you do not "accidentally" code your own client and launch it instead of the official one.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No, they had a choice.

They could instead have taken the software design route, and enforced many things like bet and game restrictions this way. This would have left most things covered by the software, and much less that needed to be covered in the terms and conditions, which as a result would not have been so bad, and a player would have to REALLY try in order to break them, such as by coding their own client in order to bypass the restrictions.

You often accidentally hit max bet instead of spin, but you do not "accidentally" code your own client and launch it instead of the official one.

Absolutely.

There is pretty much NOTHING in the T&Cs that couldn't be implemented at a software level.

From the client simply restricting bet size, to an 'are you sure' dialogue if you try to play a 'banned' game, to anything else. The truth of the matter is that the casinos would much rather take the money first, and refuse to pay later.

 

[MJackson]

On first reading this post I assumed it was an attempt at satire or amusement, so arrogant and bigoted is its tone. Now I'm not so sure, but I do know that such a condescending attitude and abusive characterisation of other gamblers is unlikely to resonate well with many members here.

However. I agree with the proposition that we are all responsible for our own actions; we all have freedom of choice; and it is necesary to research before approaching a casino, and then ensure we are familiar with it's rules before playing.

Maximum arrogance and bigotry - high trolling.

You can't have it both ways. Either it's recreation or it's not. If your demands are inconsistent with recreation then recreation is not what you provide.

 

[jetset]

Crying "troll" after your earlier post is pretty rich in my opinion.

 

[maxd]

Crying "troll" after your earlier post is pretty rich in my opinion.

I'm surprised you were able to make even that much sense out of it. I find those posts incomprehensible though they certainly seem to intend to be insulting.

@MJackson: until further notice you are in the "Moderated" group, meaning one of the Casinomeister staff or moderators will have to approve your posts before they appear on the forums.

 

[MJackson]

Crying "troll" after your earlier post is pretty rich in my opinion.

OK apparently no one got any of that. I was calling myself a troll. If you read the post I was responding to it was ostensibly a webmaster using the word stupid to descibe recreational gamblers who did not read the insanely complex T&C's of the casinos they were downloading. I was attempting to advocate for the devil and do too good a job of it, taking that logical path to it's extreme end. The point is that expecting people who are doing an activity for recreational purposes to be interested in or even capable of reading and fully understanding terms and conditions that are often intentionally arcane, counter intuitive and flat out convoluted is a bit inconsistent. It's either one or it's the other. Either you want to encourage recreational gambling or you don't. This fits right in with what the OP was saying, which I actually do agree with 100%, it's anti-player. It's also self destructive to the gambling business. How many players that would have been or could have been long term depositors have been completely put off from online gambling by having their cashout stolen after a casino invokes an fu clause? How many players who only intended to gamble have gone to cash out only to find that the games they played didn't qualify, they played an excluded game, they won with bonus money so now their entire balance is a bonus, the casino deems their play abusive etc and so now they can't cash out. Land casinos don't work that way. You don't have to worry about weather or not you can quit when you want and take your winnings or cut your losses. If I was a recreational gambler I would want no part of a system like that.

I'm guessing the type of people who are going to read through a legal document that is often as difficult to understand as a contract to buy a house, and who are going to make sure they understand every word of it, are not going to be the same people who go spew off chips on american roulette for fun. That is an inconsistency that I see people who should recognize it as such either ignoring, denying or even encouraging.

 

[TheLastCylon]

No offence but you are anything but a "dispassionate third-party". You've obviously got a strongly felt position on this and you are voicing it with some vigor. Good on ya but you've not been "dispassionate" nor an uninvolved third-party, not by a long stretch. You are proposing people should be "anti-casino": hardly an uninvolved, "third party" stance. You've gone to some lengths to imagine and support your vision of a world without bonuses and T&Cs and so forth, and not at all dispassionately.

I do not take offense to this, but I feel that I should rephrase what I mean so as to avoid confusion. I am dispassionate. I have never been wronged by a casino. Dispassionate means that I am not invested for personal reasons, which is true. I am invested because I have looked out over a landscape in which I am interested and see problems, problems that may affect me in the future and problems that I think need to be discussed.

I keep using car examples, so I may as well continue the trend; just because I have never had a car explode or otherwise fail me, doesn't mean that I don't get self-righteous and all activist-y when I see problems. I railed about the American car companies and how they deserved to fail. I've never even owned an American car.

You've argued that people should weasel their way around the T&Cs because ... because they are there? Whatever, not "disspassionate" and not "third party".

Not because they are there, but because that is what happens with legal documents. I'm not going to blame someone who tries to play the legal game with legal words. The application of T&C's opens the door to that game and it's the casinos fault that they set down the game board.

You said it three times, and I don't know what you mean by not "third party." I'm a player who's never had a problem. I don't run any websites or own a casino. I'm the very definition of a third party.

Let's be clear, I'm not faulting you for taking these particular positions, I'm just saying that (a) I disagree with your picture of the industry and your prescriptions for it and (b) I think you've misinterpreted the data available to you, largely because you're reading things into it that aren't there and/or making sweeping assumptions that undermine your entire argument,

I'm totally fine with anyone here disagreeing with me. If anything, that's why I'm here. What I want to know is where am I specifically misinterpreting data and how are my prescriptions misguided?

and (c) you're not exactly what you are claiming to be. Or perhaps you're not really who you think you are. Either way, a "dispassionate third party" you are not.

I don't know how to interpret this, but judging from your previous jab, saying that I am not third-party, I will simply take it at face value: you think that I am lying, either explicitly to you or, disregarding good advice from Shakespeare, to myself. What I am lying about is...?

The only thing about which I could have lied is my claim of being dispassionate. The other things that I have said aren't lies; they might be incorrect, but that's because I'm incorrect, not because I'm willfully trying to dissimulate or anything. I am absolutely dispassionate, because dispassionate does not mean uninterested. A judge can be dispassionate while still caring about the underlying concept of justice. What I see is an industry that is tricking thousands of people every year. I think that it's entirely reasonable to be taken aback by this.

I've said that the industry will have T&Cs as long as there are lawyers on hire by casinos who believe they need to protect themselves from those who would take advantage of them. You can argue until the cows fly home that "it is not necessary" or whatever but it is a fact of life in this business and to me it seems that pretending it's not is like debating the shape of virtual clouds. Thanks but no thanks, I'll pass on that.

I appreciate your sentiment, and what I'm saying is that a good system cannot be taken advantage of. They need the T&C's and the lawyers because of their own lack of vision. There is no reason why a casino should need them. They only need T&C's because of the current structure of their bonus system. Abandon that system for a new one, and the need for both the lawyers and the T&C's disappears.

Moreover, I am not pretending like it's not a fact of life. I'm saying that the fact doesn't need to be there. T&C's exist because bonuses can be manipulated to the guaranteed detriment of the casino. Either get rid of the T&C's and act like, I dunno', a casino, or design the games and casino to prevent violations. The former is what I'm arguing should be done, but the latter at least makes sense.

As to the benefit of the doubt I'd have to say this: after well more than a decade in this business I don't think anyone "deserves" the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of who they are -- punter or industry professional -- they pretty much have to demonstrate that they are worthy of it, IMHO. This business is so riddled with fraud, scheming, scamming and various and sundry weaselings from all sides that I believe people are worthy of the benefit of the doubt when the evidence indicates they have earned it. It's like the man from Missouri said, "show me". I'm neither pro-player nor pro-casino but I am very much anti-bullshit regardless of who is doing the shovelling.

I can't disagree with that. As I've said, I don't entirely begrudge people their sentiment vis-a-vis the industry since they, you included, have been dealing with it for so long. My reasons for believing that the benefit of the doubt are warranted are that the PAB data that you've posted, and the seemingly limitless number of casinos out there, many of which have never been the subject of CM scrutiny, means that the casino side of the industry is much more unseemly than the player side.

I want to make sure that it's understood that this does not mean that any specific casino is bad. That obviously doesn't make sense. But since the barrel has so many rotten apples, without extant data, I will assume any new apple pulled from the barrel to be rotten.

If a player comes forward with a complaint about a widely respected casino, like say 3Dice, NordicBet, or Virgin, I'll give everyone involved the benefit of the doubt. But with smaller casinos, my reflex reaction is always to lean in favor of the player until further evidence comes out.

And what does that have to do with your point? I'd say that your argument that the T&Cs are uncalled-for is based on some theoretical idea of this industry which I have never seen the merest hint of since I got involved back in '97-98.

It is not theory, and just because it has never been seen doesn't mean that it isn't desirable. Casinos are casinos. I do not have to sign a sheet of terms, conditions, and regulations when I walk into a physical casino. Everyone knows the rules of the games. There is no layer of meta-rules operating above the game rules. Online casinos can operate the exact same way. This just seems plainly obvious to me.

But until then I live in a different world than that and not to put too fine a point on it but your imagined world is not of particular interest to me, nor I dare say a lot of other folks who ply these waters on a day-to-day basis.

Shouldn't the point of this message board be not simply discussing the crap that is flying around, but the dreams of a world without flying crap? People don't go to car message boards to just talk about tires; they also talk about the future of cars which is, ideally, better than the present.

T&Cs do exist and will for the foreseeable future -- which looks a lot like forever to me -- as do bonuses, player scams, casino scams and so forth ad nauseum. T&Cs are a tool for the real world and you're likely to find them in use and rather pervasive for some time to come. If you wish to argue that that makes the casinos the bad guys and that everyone should be against them then that's your position and you're welcome to it. I think there are more even-handed approaches to the whole business but there you go.

My attacks do not involve actual scams on the part of the player. That is fraud and is something that any casino should be careful to guard against. A big example that springs to mind is chip dumping. The last thing a casino wants to be is part of a money laundering operation. Ya' know... unless they want to be part of a money laundering operation.

That is something that will definitely be a part of the gambling world. Scammers will scam, hackers will hack. But that doesn't require T&C's. These are things that people understand simply because of the nature of laws around the world. Criminals trying to launder money through a poker table do not require T&C's to understand why what they're doing is wrong. Likewise, T&C's provide absolutely no extra protection against these criminals for the casino.

I am not saying that T&C's necessarily make casinos the bad guys. I'm arguing that T&C's necessarily make casinos idiots. And the fact that a player can even violate the T&C's when the terms should be built into the casino's and games' architecture also makes them bad designers.

Anyway, as I've pretty much said, you have your axe to grind and that's great, rock on! More power to you! But let's skip the "I'm only a dispassionate nobody" stuff shall we? It's bunk and I seriously doubt I'm the only one who thinks so.

It's not bunk and I don't appreciate being directly called a liar, here, and having it been insinuated twice previously. And frankly, if others don't believe me, then that is their issue, not mine. That's why ad hominem attacks are seen as an argumentative fallacy. Moreover, I never said that I was "nobody." I'm not nobody. I'm a damn fine somebody. What I meant is that I'm someone who, up until about a year ago, had little experience with the online gaming world. And since then, perhaps because I was seeing through the eyes of an outsider, I saw many elements of this world that are just plainly ridiculous.

That's why I came here initially. That's why I joined Casinomeister. Because this place was one of the few areas where this ridiculous stuff is held to the fire.

I have no axe and I seek no grindstone. I have NEVER been screwed by an online casino. I am assaulting an industry that is, to an alarming degree, oriented to the detriment of the consumers that it services and, I think, even to itself. To simply call out as crap what is obviously crap does not mean that I have some secret vendetta.

 

[maxd]

Dispassionate means that I am not invested for personal reasons....

FTR:

dis·pas·sion·ate  [dis-pash-uh-nit]
adjective
free from or unaffected by passion; devoid of personal feeling or bias; impartial; calm: "a dispassionate critic".

I'd say "devoid of personal feeling or bias" is exactly what you have not been, nor have you shown yourself to be "impartial" in any way. So I'd say it's fair to say that "dispassionate" is not a claim you can reasonably make. That is what I meant when said you were misrepresenting yourself. At no time did I call you a liar.

 

[vinylweatherman]

FTR:


I'd say "devoid of personal feeling or bias" is exactly what you have not been, nor have you shown yourself to be "impartial" in any way. So I'd say it's fair to say that "dispassionate" is not a claim you can reasonably make. That is what I meant when said you were misrepresenting yourself. At no time did I call you a liar.

I'd say he is an advocate for change, nothing wrong with that, but this is not "dispassionate". It is also unlikely to be "unbiased".

There is pressure for change, but there is no central body to regulate the industry, and NO body at all in some cases.

Casinos brought this on themselves by coming up with the aggressive bonusing approach. As things have changed, casinos have clung on to a model that used to work well, but that is now in intensive care, being kept alive by aggressive interventions from marketing teams and lawyers. These interventions are all short term fixes, and the "disease" of fraudulent players, and what the industry calls "bonus abusers", evolves to get around each new intervention.

What is needed is a long term "back to basics" approach, where they get rid of the idea that they must use better deposit bonuses than their competitors to attract players. They should begin by making all "meta rules" enforcable through the software. This will leave only the usual "legalese" about hacking, infringement of copyrights, etc for the terms and conditions.

Casinos then need to accept that players who play to win are part of the scene, and are not about to go away. They must ensure therefore that the underlying maths is robust before launching any new scheme, such as a promotion, tournament, or cashback reward for wagering.

The hard part is weaning players off the idea that a casino without a decent welcome bonus isn't even worth a look. This means changing the mentality of affiliates, many of whom rank casinos according to the quality of their welcome bonus, rather than what they offer long term players.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

In all fairness to Cylon, on the main CM 'Philosophy and Mission Statement' page, Bryan states this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/

Trust is what holds this industry together. If you don't have trust, you don't have anything worth dealing with. Since the online casino industry is still unregulated for the most part, players will remain cautious, cynical, pessimistic and accusatory. It is up to the casino to do battle against this negativity. The way to do this is to be upfront, honest, humble, and when you make a mistake - admit it. Admitting our mistakes humanizes us, and people relate to people this way. This is a people business.

My feeling is that any reasonable person would not find the massive list of T&Cs attached to even the smallest bonus to be 'upfront and honest', and Bryan states in black and white that a player's default position is likely to be 'cynical, pessimistic and accusatory'. To expect players to wade through these T&Cs to be able to enjoy a recreational activity in safety is a nonsense.

I think Cylon is entirely right, the online casino industry is hurting itself as much as its players with its behaviour. Certainly I know quite a few folks who like a gamble on all the various games at the B&M casino we have here on the Isle of Man, they enjoy playing the slots in the amusement arcades, they'll play the AWPs in the pub and so on - but quite frankly I wouldn't dare to recommend to them that they try online gambling, there aren't enough hours in the day to 'pre-warn' them about how to deal with bonus offers and not breaking the rules and otherwise screwing themselves over so they have no chance of getting any money back.

Stories such as this say it all IMO - https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...d-due-to-violation-of-30-bet-size-rule.47764/

 

[P.V.]

In all fairness to Cylon, on the main CM 'Philosophy and Mission Statement' page, Bryan states this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/



My feeling is that any reasonable person would not find the massive list of T&Cs attached to even the smallest bonus to be 'upfront and honest', and Bryan states in black and white that a player's default position is likely to be 'cynical, pessimistic and accusatory'. To expect players to wade through these T&Cs to be able to enjoy a recreational activity in safety is a nonsense.

I think Cylon is entirely right, the online casino industry is hurting itself as much as its players with its behaviour. Certainly I know quite a few folks who like a gamble on all the various games at the B&M casino we have here on the Isle of Man, they enjoy playing the slots in the amusement arcades, they'll play the AWPs in the pub and so on - but quite frankly I wouldn't dare to recommend to them that they try online gambling, there aren't enough hours in the day to 'pre-warn' them about how to deal with bonus offers and not breaking the rules and otherwise screwing themselves over so they have no chance of getting any money back.

Stories such as this say it all IMO - https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...d-due-to-violation-of-30-bet-size-rule.47764/

The pressure for change must come from the players, the ones depositing their hard earned money.

The 10 quote reply towards Max is ambiguous.

Anyone thinking that online is the same as land based, well might be offline them self.

I can assure you as the US moves forward with IGaming, T & C's will exist, unlike walking into a land based casino.

 

[Seventh777]

In all fairness to Cylon, on the main CM 'Philosophy and Mission Statement' page, Bryan states this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/



My feeling is that any reasonable person would not find the massive list of T&Cs attached to even the smallest bonus to be 'upfront and honest', and Bryan states in black and white that a player's default position is likely to be 'cynical, pessimistic and accusatory'. To expect players to wade through these T&Cs to be able to enjoy a recreational activity in safety is a nonsense.

I think Cylon is entirely right, the online casino industry is hurting itself as much as its players with its behaviour. Certainly I know quite a few folks who like a gamble on all the various games at the B&M casino we have here on the Isle of Man, they enjoy playing the slots in the amusement arcades, they'll play the AWPs in the pub and so on - but quite frankly I wouldn't dare to recommend to them that they try online gambling, there aren't enough hours in the day to 'pre-warn' them about how to deal with bonus offers and not breaking the rules and otherwise screwing themselves over so they have no chance of getting any money back.

Stories such as this say it all IMO - https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...d-due-to-violation-of-30-bet-size-rule.47764/

I remember that thread, everyone felt for that guy including the stickler to rules Mr Nifty, an absolutely appalling decision by the casino in question - especially at that time of year.

The past year or so I have really cut back on the number of casinos I regularly play at, I still cannot and never will get my head around those casinos blatantly flagging gambleaware etc seals, expressing their integrity when it comes to those whom succumb to temptation and the darker sides of gambling, the very same casinos that will not flush reverse withdrawals and in some cases leave the customers cash hanging tempt-ably like the proverbial carrot on a stick for upto 72+ hours, until they finally succumb and reverse their withdrawal.

The sheer hypocrisy of this aspect sickens me a whole heap more than bucketful's of T&C`s ever will, how would casino`s fare if we had the same option with deposits and left them in limbo for 2-3 days and then decided not to deposit, have reverse withdrawals by all means, but, it should be entirely down to the player whether or not they are used, after-all it is our money, is it not?.

 

[MJackson]

The hard part is weaning players off the idea that a casino without a decent welcome bonus isn't even worth a look.

How irrational do you think players are?

I think the OP has some great points. But otoh I've been around this business long enough that I have to recognize Maxd's replies, ad hom stuff notwithstanding, as being basically right.

Your problem, our problem, is that this business serves no real economic purpose. In that respect it is almost singular. You cannot get rid of the gimmicks. Ever. Online gambling is a gimmick.

 

[jetset]

I'd say he is an advocate for change, nothing wrong with that, but this is not "dispassionate". It is also unlikely to be "unbiased".

There is pressure for change, but there is no central body to regulate the industry, and NO body at all in some cases.

Casinos brought this on themselves by coming up with the aggressive bonusing approach. As things have changed, casinos have clung on to a model that used to work well, but that is now in intensive care, being kept alive by aggressive interventions from marketing teams and lawyers. These interventions are all short term fixes, and the "disease" of fraudulent players, and what the industry calls "bonus abusers", evolves to get around each new intervention.

What is needed is a long term "back to basics" approach, where they get rid of the idea that they must use better deposit bonuses than their competitors to attract players. They should begin by making all "meta rules" enforcable through the software. This will leave only the usual "legalese" about hacking, infringement of copyrights, etc for the terms and conditions.

Casinos then need to accept that players who play to win are part of the scene, and are not about to go away. They must ensure therefore that the underlying maths is robust before launching any new scheme, such as a promotion, tournament, or cashback reward for wagering.

The hard part is weaning players off the idea that a casino without a decent welcome bonus isn't even worth a look. This means changing the mentality of affiliates, many of whom rank casinos according to the quality of their welcome bonus, rather than what they offer long term players.

I find myself in broad agreement with much of what VWM says here, which makes more practical sense to me than the somewhat idealistic approach of Cylon.

I do believe that the increasingly lucrative yet onerous bonus culture that has evolved over the years has become counter-productive in almost every dimension, and that it has done little to improve the perhaps natural adversarial gap between players trying to win money and casinos trying to make money off players.

That has lead to the competitive evolution of T&Cs as one side tries to cancel out the others' advantage, but when it comes to hard cash it's difficult to envisage a system that does not have a set of rules by which everyone is supposed to play.

Regrettably, even with those rules laid out there are occasions when both sides play this cat and mouse game unfairly, and that's to the ultimate detriment of everyone and the industry itself imo.

The general tone of this thread has created a rather dark portrayal of an evil and thoroughly dishonest industry intentionally and continuously gouging the players, and I think that may militate against the balance that many members here prefer in discussions. There are days when I also become depressed, frustrated and angry reading a litany of wrongdoing here by either players or operators, and I acknowledge that it is easy to lose a sense of perspective.

Certainly there are enough individual examples of bad behaviour on all sides to create a negative vibe, but amongst all of this it should also be remembered that this is a global industry processing probably millions of transactions every day, and that the instances of questionable conduct are but a part of it...and a part that may in fact be relatively small although still regrettable.

I'm not sure that there is sufficient unbiased data available to indicate how big or how small the "evil element" might be, but the fact remains that online gambling continues to attract and retain enough player interest to make it a lucrative business in a commercial sense, and a source of profit and/or entertainment (depending on your personal viewpoint) for others.

It's not a bad thing to retain a sense of perspective no matter how strongly one feels on either side of the equation.

I would really like to see VWM's vision of a return to basics on bonusing, but I concur with his view that until players stop succumbing to these often ridiculous inducements, they are here to stay, along with the disputes and disruptions that so often attend them - like T&Cs and how these are interpreted.

I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to the idea that a recreational gambler should be entitled to be less attentive to T&Cs. These are a fact of life, influencing one's chances of reward, and when money is involved one should never take them for granted...any more than one should blindly put hard earned money into an online casino that one has not first checked out.

 

[Nifty29]

Well said jetset.

You know, there really are just a few basic rules to follow if one is going to take a bonus:

1. Always check restricted games.

2. Check maximum bet restrictions.

3. Check wagering requirements.

4. Check casinomeister forums for any reviews.

I've probably left an obvious one out, so feel free to add.

My point is, if you always do the things above you'll never run into trouble. It's not really that difficult at all.

Almost every issue is a result of NOT doing the things above, and they're mostly common sense, and I don't have an ounce of sympathy for them. It is these players that blow in like a force 10 gale, typing in caps, throwing accusations around.....all because they're angry...and they should be.....at themselves. However, instead of suffering the consequences of not making themselves aware of the terms they agreed to in the first place, it is far easier to drum up some support from the usual suspects in the forums and make oneself into a victim. Actually, they are a victim....of their own carelessness.

If 50%, or even 5%, of players had issues with confiscation of winnings due to breach of terms, then i would consider that bonus terms are a bad thing and join the crusade....but 99% of players don't have an issue with taking time to read terms and clarify what they don't understand, so I'll stay in the "you make your bed, you lie in it" camp.

 

[jetset]

5. Check withdrawal restrictions

 

[ChopleyIOM]

6) And hope that your play isn't determined to be 'not be in the spirit of the bonus' - except they won't define what the 'spirit' of the bonus actually is, or what the rules are, or how they'll apply them.

 

[Nifty29]

6) And hope that your play isn't determined to be 'not be in the spirit of the bonus' - except they won't define what the 'spirit' of the bonus actually is, or what the rules are, or how they'll apply them.

Anyone who plays at a casino where a rule like this applies with no specifics regarding what constitutes bonus abuse should be avoided.

Again, its down to reading the terms and clarifying anything that is not clear. It is part of #4 checking casinomeister. Casinos that pull these stunts usually get bad PR here, so you should never really end up at one if you're smart.

I have no sympathy for anyone who plays at these casinos and gets shafted.....its not playing smart, and if you're not smart, you shouldn't gamble....or should at least educate yourself.

It should be noted that in 15 years I have never had winnings confiscated.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I have no sympathy for anyone who plays at these casinos and gets shafted.....its not playing smart, and if you're not smart, you shouldn't gamble....or should at least educate yourself.

It should be noted that in 15 years I have never had winnings confiscated.

TBH Nifty think it's going to be hard for you to look at this objectively 'through the eyes of a novice player' as it were, if you've been playing online for 15 years.

Certainly when I started playing online over four years ago I got burned in more ways than one, and I'm not an imbecile.

1) I played high variance games at big stakes relative to my bankroll, before I even knew what variance was. (That was an expensive evening, with multiple deposits and a call from my bank's fraud detection team the next day.....)

2) I took SUBs without understanding the implication of WRs, and had to ask multiple times in Live Chat how close I was to meeting them, as this was before MG software gave you any indication in the software.

3) Then I learned how onerous WRs can be, to understand the difference between just bonus or bonus+deposit, which games contribute what, that sort of thing. And watched bankrolls disappear as I got ground out by bad WRs.

4) More by luck than judgement I managed to avoid rogue casinos, but this was more down to the fact that I liked the MG games and software, and their casinos tend to be the better run ones.

Now from these early experiences I read around, I found the CM site, I clued myself up and since then my playing online has been a lot more enjoyable - but I've not been playing online for so long as to have forgotten just what a big, bad, scary, unwelcoming world online gaming can be to a new player who just assumes everything will be nice and clear and there won't be a requirement to read twenty pages of T&Cs to understand what's going on at any given casino.

With all due respect Nifty, being fifteen years down the line, I think you have forgotten that.

 

[Tirilej]

Not to forget all of us having to translate all the rules first.
When you are new that is more difficult than you can imagine, and no googletranslation will help either.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not to forget all of us having to translate all the rules first.
When you are new that is more difficult than you can imagine, and no googletranslation will help either.

I didn't think about that, English is my first language and I sometimes have to read sections of T&Cs two or three times to work out what they actually mean