A Meditation On Being Anti-Casino

[jetset]

How about the question "Were you ever a member under a different username?"

I'm assuming the answer is "yes" since you would have outright denied ever being a member when answering the above question.

So who were you?

I think, for clarity, this is a fair enough question.

 

[jetset]

Ehay owhay oderatesmay isway ometimessay equiredray otay askway uchsay ingsthay.



AFAIC we're being respectful of the guy by asking him to simply answer the question. Nobody has demanded that he prove anything, I'll be happy to take him at his word. Let's not make this out to be something it clearly isn't.

And this is an internet discussion forum, not a law court.

 

[maxd]

Ehay owhay oderatesmay isway ometimessay equiredray otay askway uchsay ingsthay.

Never occurred to me that the translation of this wouldn't be obvious to the readership, it means:

"He who moderates is sometimes required to ask such things".

 

[TheLastCylon]

I would like to explicitly return to the issue of the thread, namely, casino behavior that foments an “anti-casino” bias.

The statement of, and the enforcement of, "bat shit crazy terms," as Surasanji put it here, along with a host of other examples that have nothing to do with T&C's, has a long and glorious history at Casinomeister.

Thread after thread, post after post, battle after battle, PAB after PAB, Rogue after Rogue, horrible experience after horrible experience; anyone spending some hours/days/weeks reading through the Casinomeister forum posts would have to exit that exercise with an "Anti-Casino” bias.

Many examples of these behaviors have been stated or implied, by myself and others, within this thread.

In addition, you don't need to look very hard to generate an even more impressive list of the continuance of this behavior into this week, this day - right now! It seems quite salient.


https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...yout-exceeded-goddess-of-life-playtech.49600/: Regarding this "max cap" on free spins - the game says that you win 100 free spins, but on spin 37 you're informed that your free spins are over. I wish there was a less crude way of describing this, but it is the gambling equivalent of blue balls.

"No winning allowed": Link Outdated / Removed

And those evil bots: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/betfred-dispute.49802/

These complaints were genuine. These weren't people simply scamming or playing the legal game of T&C “interpretation.”


In the current Baptism by Fire and Probation threads, I found at least three instances of T&C "bat shit craziness". This also did not require digging very far. And these are the Baptism threads! As ChuChu said here, the companies are going to be putting their best foots (feet?) forward during this kind of process.

Forced bonuses at Vernons:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/vernons-casino-failed.49495/

"Irregular" gaming, whatever the hell that is:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/grand-duke-casino.49556/

Bonus “abuse” (and MIA rep):
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ire-thread-removed-from-accred-section.48622/

 

[maxd]

... anyone spending some hours/days/weeks reading through the Casinomeister forum posts would have to exit that exercise with an "Anti-Casino” bias.

At the risk of repeating myself you should try imagining what it is like to go through a similar experience with the PABs. Casinos aren't the only culprits when it comes to "batshit crazy" stunts being pulled. Players pretty much dish out as good as they get, so much so that one could reverse your statement and still be stating a truth: in other words there is plenty of player behaviour that could foment an “anti-player” bias, if one were so inclined.

At best I think you'd have to say that the scene is a lot more complicated than either "anti" stance would reasonably reflect. To steal a line from ZERO EFFECT "there are no good guys and bad guys, there's just a bunch of guys". Your heartfelt stance in defence of players is admirable but it does not reflect the reality I, for one, see and deal with every day.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

At the risk of repeating myself you should try imagining what it is like to go through a similar experience with the PABs. I assure you that casinos aren't the only culprits when it comes to "batshit crazy" stunts being pulled. Players pretty much dish out as good as they get.

Your heartfelt stance in defence of players is admirable but it does not reflect the reality I see and deal with every day. To steal a line from ZERO EFFECT "there are no good guys and bad guys, there's just a bunch of guys".

Sorry max I don't buy that, the relationship between player and casino is designed to be one way traffic from start to finish.

The casinos have the house edge, they will ALWAYS win in the long term, because their RTP is 102% and ours is 98% (not exact numbers and depends on casino/software/game but I'm sure you understand the basic point).

If the casinos can't just sit back and rake in the profits when EVERYONE involved from the start knows that the casino wins and the player loses in the long term - i.e. if the casino still feels the need to drop T&C nonsense on a player when he dares to win through 'bonus abuse' or 'multiple accounts' or whatever it may be - then the burden of responsibility falls upon the casinos to stop selling such crappy products.

(What benefit do multiple accounts even offer to a player? Even the best SUBs these days are money back on average luck at best. Yes you can bet high early and grind out low on a good SUB, but NOTHING ever changes the long term RTP on a random game, the casino ALWAYS wins in the end. And if casinos are still selling bonuses that can be beaten, then they're just rubbish at designing products - it's not the players' fault.)

Talk about shooting fish in a barrel, if someone can't make money running an honest casino, then that someone needs to get the f**k out of the casino business, because they're an idiot.

I have no doubt that you have people chancing it with you all the time max, and for the record I absolutely respect the work you've done here at CM over the years and for your substantial contribution to the 'playing field' that all us gamblers play on (myself included!).

But, and there is a but, in a great mass of individuals, the 'general public' if you will, you're always going to get those chancers coming forward.

When it comes to the casinos, they are the few, and we are the many - the casinos should lead by example and be the good guys, because ultimately they need us and they need our money, it's up to them to convince us, not the other way around.

 

[maxd]

Sorry max I don't buy that ... the burden of responsibility falls upon the casinos to stop selling such crappy products.

Believe what you like. I'm saying that of the many hundreds of complaint issues I've handled a significant portion of them involve players trying to cheat the casinos. If you think that means the casino is always the bad guy or whatever then fill your boots! I just don't see that on a day-to-day basis.

IMO this "burden of responsibility" stuff is a fantasy: I see casinos in it to make money off the players and players in it to make money off the casinos. Most of the time the parties involved are not too picky about how they accomplish their goal. There are no referees nor rights and wrongs, nor even many true innocents. The end result is that the lines between who is righteous and who is not -- if I may extrapolate from this "casinos are evil, players do what they have to do in order to level the playing field" sentiment -- are very, VERY blurred. Lines that blurred are not worth calling lines, IMHO, it's just a big mosh pit and everyone is pretty much looking out for themselves.

YMMV and so be it.

 

[Nifty29]

I would like to explicitly return to the issue of the thread, namely, casino behavior that foments an “anti-casino” bias.

The statement of, and the enforcement of, "bat shit crazy terms," as Surasanji put it here, along with a host of other examples that have nothing to do with T&C's, has a long and glorious history at Casinomeister.

Thread after thread, post after post, battle after battle, PAB after PAB, Rogue after Rogue, horrible experience after horrible experience; anyone spending some hours/days/weeks reading through the Casinomeister forum posts would have to exit that exercise with an "Anti-Casino” bias.

Many examples of these behaviors have been stated or implied, by myself and others, within this thread.

In addition, you don't need to look very hard to generate an even more impressive list of the continuance of this behavior into this week, this day - right now! It seems quite salient.


https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...yout-exceeded-goddess-of-life-playtech.49600/: Regarding this "max cap" on free spins - the game says that you win 100 free spins, but on spin 37 you're informed that your free spins are over. I wish there was a less crude way of describing this, but it is the gambling equivalent of blue balls.

"No winning allowed": Link Outdated / Removed

And those evil bots: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/betfred-dispute.49802/

These complaints were genuine. These weren't people simply scamming or playing the legal game of T&C “interpretation.”


In the current Baptism by Fire and Probation threads, I found at least three instances of T&C "bat shit craziness". This also did not require digging very far. And these are the Baptism threads! As ChuChu said here, the companies are going to be putting their best foots (feet?) forward during this kind of process.

Forced bonuses at Vernons:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/vernons-casino-failed.49495/

"Irregular" gaming, whatever the hell that is:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/grand-duke-casino.49556/

Bonus “abuse” (and MIA rep):
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ire-thread-removed-from-accred-section.48622/

You will answer each and every comment, opinion, and question except this one:

Have you EVER been a member here under another alias?

If you won't be honest about who you are, even though you "were not banned", how do you expect anyone to respect what you say? Someone pretending to be a newb has no integrity whatsoever.

You will see that I am not the only one asking the question. Time to fess up.

 

[Surasanji]

I would like to explicitly return to the issue of the thread, namely, casino behavior that foments an “anti-casino” bias.

The statement of, and the enforcement of, "bat shit crazy terms," as Surasanji put it here, along with a host of other examples that have nothing to do with T&C's, has a long and glorious history at Casinomeister.

Thread after thread, post after post, battle after battle, PAB after PAB, Rogue after Rogue, horrible experience after horrible experience; anyone spending some hours/days/weeks reading through the Casinomeister forum posts would have to exit that exercise with an "Anti-Casino” bias.

Many examples of these behaviors have been stated or implied, by myself and others, within this thread.

In addition, you don't need to look very hard to generate an even more impressive list of the continuance of this behavior into this week, this day - right now! It seems quite salient.

Hey. Bat-shit crazy is my word. You can't steal it from my proud people!

You have made some very good points, Cylon- but as Max (And others) have said above there are bad players out there.

Anyone can say they are anyone else online- and for someone with even a little talent, and the skills its rediculously easy to do just that.

You will rarely meet your online casino hosts. They are names on a chat screen, email addresses and forum members. The opposite is just as true. Those Casino workers rarely meet their players.

This alone makes an online casino a prime target. Add to that said talented person could take a few photo-shop classes and more or less make what appear to be authentic IDs and the rest- well.

The Casino becomes a sitting goose.

Those Terms and Conditions, as odd as this might sound, DO protect the honest players. They help keep charges down, keep processors up (Less fraud-prone people depositing, and CBing), and generally let you know where things stand.

And, to bring back my term- It helps protect you from Bat-shit crazy casinos. They're the ones with the crazy terms that all players should be reading to educate themselves.

Its kinda like reading the guide-book to Yellowstone- if you stay on the well marked path, you won't get mauled by a bear or eaten by a pack of wolves!

If you don't follow the guidebook- or those marked trails.. Its hardly the park's fault you were devoured by a bear, trampled by a bison and fell down a cliff because you were to stubborn or to lazy (or to dumb, in some cases) just to read the guide or stay within the 'safe' area.

I feel like you've got your heart in the right place, for sure!

But, I also feel like you're a little blind to just how many people out there are more than willing to cheat, steal, defraud and generally be bastards to Casinos- or to their fellow players- for money.

 

[KasinoKing]

(What benefit do multiple accounts even offer to a player? Even the best SUBs these days are money back on average luck at best. Yes you can bet high early and grind out low on a good SUB, but NOTHING ever changes the long term RTP on a random game, the casino ALWAYS wins in the end. And if casinos are still selling bonuses that can be beaten, then they're just rubbish at designing products - it's not the players' fault.)

For many years I used to think exactly like you.

But then it was explained to me that when bonuses come in to the equation they can be +EV for the player. Not one single bonus on it's own, but multiple bonuses taken as a whole.
That is why we see lots of cases of multiple accounting and "groups" of bonus hunters. If there was no advantage, why would these people risk their OWN money? The simple answer is "they wouldn't". They are mathematicians, not gamblers!

KK

 

[Nifty29]

For many years I used to think exactly like you.

But then it was explained to me that when bonuses come in to the equation they can be +EV for the player. Not one single bonus on it's own, but multiple bonuses taken as a whole.
That is why we see lots of cases of multiple accounting and "groups" of bonus hunters. If there was no advantage, why would these people risk their OWN money? The simple answer is "they wouldn't". They are mathematicians, not gamblers!

KK

Exactly. It is all about getting multiple bites of the cherry.

If you find a good SUB, and there are some still around, or another good promo, and you have enough goes at it (particularly with max bets) you will almost certainly hit something big. The promotions are not designed so that one player can have dozens of tries at it.....and the average player, who wouldn't even consider pulling this crap, should be VERY pissed at the morons that try (and probably do) get away with it, because it is these average players that end up paying the price via higher WR's, less bonuses and freebies, and tighter loyalty programs. The guys who pull these stunts don't give a rats arse about anyone else, and yet there are some here who defend them (most likely because they are the ones pulling the stunts).

The examples that crylon provides are mostly from rogue operators, and most of them well-known for being so. The gambling industry is just like any other....there are dodgy operators in all of them, and it is totally unfair to group those rogues in with the operators who run a fair and honest business. He is using selected isolated issues to make us believe that the whole industry is rogue (and yet he still plays ) , which isn't fooling anyone with a brain. He carefully ignores the positives and the thousands of posts about good operators and genuine mistakes being resolved quickly and without fuss.....but then that is how those with an agenda work i.e. they only discuss the facts they feel fit their conspiracy theory/agenda and just ignore all the others. 1000+ word posts aren't worth the server space if all they do is distort reality and even totally ignore it.

Nothing makes me laugh more than someone who posts almost exclusively about how terrible the industry is and how we're all being ripped off and defrauded etc.....as they click the spin/deal button. LOL. Seriously, it actually makes me chuckle. If you want to change something, then doing it from within is a good strategy.....but continuing to play just says "well I don't really believe my own words" and just makes it all appear to be the rantings of a sore loser, or someone with a big chip on their shoulder due to possibly being caught breaking the "awful" rules they are now vehemently attacking and paying the ultimate price. Still, people like this seldom change so I would expect to hear the same stuff now as in years before. New aliases etc can't cover one's core personality....it's like an albatross around the neck.

The "bot" thing? Well no casino is ever going to accept them, even if some are "harmless" as he says. How does the casino decide what is harmless and what is not? Once you start allowing any third-party software to be used by players you immediately open the doors for fraudsters like that Markus dweeb to infiltrate the client or build a new one and manipulate the games. Let's face it...who here in the forums is calling "We wanna use bots!! It's not fair!!". Well, the answer is practically nobody. Why? The average honest player just wants to deposit and play and maybe win. It's not about scamming a living out of someone else....and that's the big difference.

So much of this "casinos are scammers" stuff just doesn't bother many average players because they know that if they play at a reputable casino and follow the rules they have nothing to fear. It is almost always the players who are out to gain an advantage that other players don't that end up being caught out due to their greed and selfishness. It is these scammers that are responsible for these terms in the first place. It is also these players who scream the loudest about getting rid of them. I know personally that I will never have an issue at the places I play because I read and understand what I'm getting into, and I am not out to deliberately circumvent the rules to gain an unfair advantage over not just the casino but other players.

Just remember what I said....the ones making the most noise about "unfair terms" and "scammer casinos" etc etc are the ones who have the most to lose....and it is NOT average players like the vast majority here at CM.

 

[maxd]

Good post Nifty, and well said.

PS. think you might be seeing a few too many rogues in the woodshed but that's a quibble.

 

[Mousey]

Remember :The smarter you play, the luckier you'll be.Recently I found real working system.I use this system and I win constantly.i highly recommend it
check it out www.crapmeister.com

bye bye

 

[TheLastCylon]

It seems like I just drop in, pop-off a post, then disappear into the nether for a week. Ahh, so is the life of physical therapy.

The last point that I wanted to make about this subject was that these bat-shit T&C's are pervasive throughout the industry. If someone reads these terms and takes them at face value, it would be impossible to not develop an anti-casino attitude.

I wanted to show how this is true even for the very best casinos in the industry! I looked over Casinomeister's “Picks” list and read the T&C's for all of them.

Again, this list is only a partial one. Many here have listed others, some in this very thread, and continue to post complaints every day. Truly, there are constant little mini-discussions that take place in threads, and I feel that these get lost in the din of Casinomeister chatter. I think that bringing these subjects out of threads about specific casinos and into their own threads, thus giving them their own life, is important.

This bulleted list contains types of restrictions that I found at nearly every top casino. They are either known and agreed-upon nonsense or are, at face value, absurd, even within the context of an EULA.

• Robot Exclusion
• “We don't like you” exclusion
• Cash-out exclusions
• Spirit of the casino
• Spirit of the bonus
• Pattern betting
• No responsibility clause

As I said, I focused on these casinos because these are Casinomeister's guys. These are, quite literally, the certified best casinos online. If these are the best, the industry is in terrible shape, and not just because of the economy.

Most of them have robot exclusion and pattern betting exclusions, even though everyone here knows that these are absurd. Some of them have "we don't like you" clauses where they literally state that they will eject you for whatever reason. Many have what I have labeled "spirit of the casino," which seems to translate to "you are here to lose money, accept it." Apparently, few of the casinos even have any confidence in their own software, with some going so far as to say that they are absolved in the case of virus infections. If they have so little confidence in themselves, why should I have any confidence in them?

I would very much appreciate input from others on this. I only checked CM's picks, and as such, I'm sure that many other, lesser casinos have doubly-crazy T&C's which we can make fun of.


The remainder of this post is copies of the actual terms that I found in each casino.


SlotoCash

Bonus-Related-
If you try to cash in before fulfilling bonus requirements, your winnings are void: Cash-out exclusion. Game and casino mechanics belong in the software. It should be impossible to do this.

If you have been designated as a bonus abuser, playing no or low-risk strategies in order to withdraw promotional money: Spirit of the bonus.

Non-Bonus-Related-
The Game is for entertainment value only... If you have not played at the Casino on an individual basis for personal entertainment only [you will be banned]: Spirit of the casino.

The Company reserves the right, in its unfettered discretion, to void any winnings and confiscate any balance in your Casino account: I didn't know how to classify this one, but it's just outright psychotic.

If you are found cheating or if it is determined by the Company that you have employed or made use of a system (including machines, computers, software or other automated systems) designed specifically to defeat the Casino: Robot exclusion and possibly pattern betting.

If you do not log onto your Casino account for a period of 180 days, any balance in your account will be forfeited to the Company: Seriously? Leave for six months and we take your money?

3Dice

Non-Bonus-Related-
You agree that you will not use any technology, be it automated, electronically or otherwise, including robots, scripts, macros, or other programs in gambling on this site: Robot exclusion. Those robot restrictions just keep rearing their ugly heads. Does every casino on Earth need to be reminded that this is nonsense?

[Your account will be suspended] if 3DICE.COM has grounds to believe that you are using the site for purposes other than those for which it was intended: Spirit of the casino.

Bonus-Related-
Bonuses are issued in good faith by the Casino as an incentive for "real" players, or as a token of appreciation for returning players who have continually shown their patronage and played for entertainment purposes only. They will be denied, declined, or revoked from players who are deemed to abuse the spirit of this offer: They managed to wedge in both spirit of the bonus and spirit of the casino into a single condition.

All promotions are available only once per person, family, household address, e-mail address, credit card number, and environments where computers are shared (university, fraternity, school, public library, workplace, etc.): This is such an absurd restriction that it only further confirms the problems inherent in the current bonus structure, where even whole groups of IP's will be restricted until the end of time because of a single hypothetical player.

The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs at anytime, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion: Spirit of the bonus.

32Red

Non-Bonus-Related-
If while playing at 32Red you win a sum regarded by 32Red as worthy of publicity then you hereby agree to be available for any event arranged by 32Red in relation to the win: So If I win, I must become their spokesman?

Bonus-Related-
In the interests of fair gaming, there is a limit on the maximum bet size you can place during the playthrough of the no-deposit bonus: No. It is in the interests of preventing losses at the casino. There is nothing fair about it. Just say what it is and do not patronize me.

The casino may, at their sole discretion, change the terms and conditions for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users. No correspondence will be entered into. 32Red's decision will be considered final in the event of a dispute: No responsibility clause. This one seemed innocuous and commonplace at first, but the wording caught my eye. Basically, as a player, they are saying that it is your responsibility to read the T&C's before, at least hypothetically, every game. And if you somehow still get screwed, too bad. They won't even talk to you because they are always right.

ClubUSA

Non-Bonus-Related-
Commercial use of CWCUSD is strictly forbidden. The Player will play only for private and non-professional purposes: Don't we all play to win? Isn't earning money from an endeavor the very definition of professional? Spirit of the casino.

Club World Casinos (CWCUSD) does not currently accept any real money wagers from the legal jurisdictions of the Netherlands Antilles, Costa Rica, Israel, France or the Town of Markham in Canada: This isn't batshit, but I just found it funny that they blocked a single town. Are they sure they don't want to pick out particular streets?

In cases where players are participating in strategies or patterns of play that CWCUSD in its sole discretion deems to be abusive we reserve the right, prior to closing the account, to deduct any processing costs associated with the account from the value of the final payment: Pattern betting.

InetBet

Non-Bonus-Related-
If you are found cheating or if it is determined by iNetBet that you have used a system or machine, be it an additional computer, additional software or otherwise: Robot exclusion and pattern betting.

Bonus-Related-
Bonuses are made available on a regular basis at iNetBet, these are offered as a reward to all our regular and loyal players. However any player found to be availing of these promotions, not in the spirit in which they are given, may be subject to exclusion: Spirit of the bonus.

Platinum Play Their T&C's were epic. Over twenty pages worth.

Non-Bonus-Related-
We may refuse to register you as a Player or elect to deregister and exclude you or suspend you as a Player from the Casino at any time if we deem that your participation at the Casino is, shall be or has been previously, in any way not for personal entertainment [i.e. professional], fraudulent, illegal or that your participation is or has been abusive, collusive or irregular in any way: Spirit of the casino and “we don't like you” exclusions.

If, whilst playing at the Casino, you win a sum of money or any other prize regarded by the Casino as worthy of publicity, you agree to make yourself available for any event of any kind arranged by the Casino in order to publicise your win and any such prize: Again, basically saying that they own you if you win.

Although we shall take all reasonable measures to ensure that the Software and files are free from computer viruses we cannot and do not guarantee that the Software and files are free of such problems. It is your responsibility to protect your systems and have in place the ability to reinstall any data or programs lost due to a virus: This one blew my mind. EULA's generally have a “damage” clause, but that usually either implies or directly states that this is during the normal operation of the product. For example, a lawnmower company is not held responsible if you cut off your own foot, but are held responsible if the lawn mower detonates and blows your leg off. Essentially, here, they are saying that they have so little confidence in their product, that they have to even include a virus clause. No responsibility.

In no circumstances whatsoever shall the Casino, its directors, officers, employees, shareholders, agents and affiliates, the ultimate parent and parent companies of the Casino and any of its subsidiaries be liable to you in contract, tort, negligence or otherwise, for any loss or damage howsoever arising from any cause whatsoever, whether direct or indirect, or for any amounts whatsoever (even where we have been notified by you of the possibility of such loss or damage): Translation, even if we lose all of your information and the entirety of your identity is stolen, entirely at our fault, it is not our fault and you can go screw. No responsibility.

These Changes shall become effective, and you shall be bound by these Changes, immediately upon their posting on the Casino Website: If they change mid-game, you are still responsible for the new T&C's. The whole concept of promulgating is alien to these people.

Bonus-Related-

The Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings for irregular play: They then proceed to list three things, but it is not limited to these. So, basically, irregular play can mean whatever the hell they please. Spirit of the casino, pattern betting, robot exclusion.

Omni Casino

Non-Bonus-Related-
WE DO NOT WARRANT THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL BE NON-INFRINGING OR THAT THE OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE ERROR FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED OR THAT ANY DEFECTS IN THE SOFTWARE WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE OR THE SERVERS ARE VIRUS-FREE: This EULA is standard until the very end, where they again try to dodge the idea that their software may be actively bad, as in it will try to hurt you. When Sony pulled this kind of language after the Playstation Network credit card hack, they were at the receiving end of a massive law suit.

You will not commit any acts or display any conduct that damages our reputation or our software provider or any other related service providers: If you don't like us, shut up.

Bonus-Related-
Omni Casino, reserves the right to review transaction records and logs, from time to time, for any reason whatsoever. If upon such review, it appears that end users or any one or combination of them are participating in strategies which Omni Casino, in their sole discretion deem to be abusive, Omni Casino, reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such end user(s) to the promotion and required that all bonuses and winnings related to such abuse be reversed and/or forfeited: We're watching, and if we don't like you, you're gone.

If a player is deemed to be engaging in bonus abuse or using the bonus in games for which it is not eligible, Omni Casino® reserves the right to discontinue player's membership and to prevent the player from accessing the casino in the future: Spirit of the bonus.

Jackpot Capital

Non-Bonus-Related-
If a player is found cheating or if it is determined by Jackpot Capital that he has used a system or machine, be it an additional computer, additional software or otherwise. Also any system used to circumvent the natural randomness of our systems and or collection of data to or from the gaming server for analysis purposes during real money play: Robot exclusion.

Bonus-Related-
Any wagers made on excluded games before the playthrough requirements are completed, will result in the bonus and any winnings being voided: Should be part of the software.

Bonuses are made available on a regular basis at Jackpot Capital. These are offered as a reward to all our regular and loyal/VIP players. However, any player found to be availing of these promotions, not in the spirit in which they are given, may be subject to exclusion: Spirit of the Bonus.

Red Flush

Non-Bonus-Related-
The casino will regard any deposit into your casino account as indication of your intention to wager at our online casino. Should you fail to do so, all purchase and payment processing fees will be deducted. In such cases, the casino management has the right to remove the above mentioned processing fees from your casino balance without any prior notification. Making a deposit and then requesting a cash-in without wagering will not be accepted. Players thus accept and understand that the casino has the right to refuse the cashin from being processed and that all decisions made by the casino are final: Not sure how to classify this, but they are saying that changing one's mind is against the terms and conditions. Spirit of the casino, I think.

Bonus-Related-
Red Flush reserves the right to refuse a promotional bonus for any reason whatsoever, including, but not restricted to player abuse: Bonus abuse/spirit of the bonus.

Even if the player has complied with the Terms and Conditions, there are certain instances where promotion abuse can still occur. Non-compliance with the Terms and Conditions is also considered abuse: Even if you aren't doing anything wrong, you're still doing something wrong. Spirit of the bonus.

If the casino deems that the autoplay feature has been used for the purpose of meeting bonus account wagering requirements, Red Flush reserves the right to void winnings: The feature that THEY GAVE YOU is not allowed. This takes the robot exclusion to new heights of complete and total stupidity.

Observations of playing patterns such as the playing for deliberate minimum risk, equal, zero marginal or hedge betting may not be considered as playing in the appropriate spirit for the purposes of meeting bonus wagering requirements. Should the Casino deem that these practices have been utilised for the specific purpose of meeting wagering requirements, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cash in and/or confiscate all winnings: This wunderkind of a condition includes spirit of the bonus and pattern betting. Basically, this casino has covered all of its bases to ensure that any winnings that you may have will promptly be voided.

 

[maxd]

It seems like I just drop in, pop-off a post, then disappear into the nether for a week.

Yeah, it does. Not sure what the point in dropping these weekly stink-bombs really is though.

So a few Accred casinos have some Terms that you have managed to distort into something (potentially) nasty. In many cases your interpretation is just something you've pulled out of thin air. So what? I read many of those Terms and see something quite different. Many of them are CYA terms ("Cover Your Ass") that are there in case they need to protect themselves. Are there actual cases on record of them being enforced in the manner you suggest they could be? In many, many cases the answer would have to be "no".

In other cases, the bot stuff for instance, the exclusions are entirely up to the casino. If you ran a casino it would be totally up to you whether you accepted bots or not. No offense intended but what does it matter what you, for example, happen to think of such things? It's the casino's business and that's about it. Who is in a legitimate position to say different? Certainly not you, nor me, nor CM for that matter.

So ... where's the beef? Or are you just kvetching about this stuff for the sake of kvetching? Not to put too fine a point on it but how is this not just an episodic soapbox rant?

Are you just killing time? Sorry for your predicament but it ain't much of a spectator sport.

You have claimed to not be a "tin-foil-hat loon" but I suggest to you that you're sailing awfully close to exactly that. Any busy-body can find stuff to get bent out of shape about if that's what they really want to do. Are there real problems here or just ones you are imagining? It looks like a lot of the latter to me. Entertaining for you I guess but I put it to you that your imagined grumpkins are, in fact, pretty toothless.

 

[Nifty29]

Well, I think you'll find cylon has already been awarded the tin foil hat under their previous username....which is why they had to re-invent themselves to try to regain some credibility. Trouble is, old habits die hard and they can't help themselves....and it eventually becomes clear to everyone who they're really dealing with.

 

[maxd]

Well, I think you'll find cylon has already been awarded the tin foil hat under their previous username....

Do you know something I don't? If not, if you're just speculating, then please be aware how contentious that can be and how much we don't need flame wars based on speculations. If you've got proof by all means share it. Otherwise ... maybe not the best thing for the forums, no? Just saying.

 

[Nifty29]

Do you know something I don't? If not, if you're just speculating, then please be aware how contentious that can be and how much we don't need flame wars based on speculations. Just saying.

Fair enough.

Mind you, it could all be put to bed if cylon would just answer one simple question about whether he's ever been a member here. Cylon only stated he has "never been banned" which means more in regards to what it neglects to say, rather than what it does say.

I don't see that the question is an unreasonable one, and many members in this thread seem to agree.

I also think its pretty funny that someone would spend so much time writing an essay about how underhanded and dodgy the top accredited casinos are based on their predatory terms.....if Bryans judgement is so poor, and cylons judgement is unquestionable, then why doesn't he leave this site and start his own site? (Maybe tf.hat)

 

[maxd]

I don't see that the question is an unreasonable one, and many members in this thread seem to agree.

Understood, and agreed.

 

[Seventh777]

Yeah, it does. Not sure what the point in dropping these weekly stink-bombs really is though.

So a few Accred casinos have some Terms that you have managed to distort into something (potentially) nasty. In many cases your interpretation is just something you've pulled out of thin air. So what? I read many of those Terms and see something quite different. Many of them are CYA terms ("Cover Your Ass") that are there in case they need to protect themselves. Are there actual cases on record of them being enforced in the manner you suggest they could be? In many, many cases the answer would have to be "no".

QFT, nothing depicts this better than his hypothesis regarding 32Red.....

32Red

Non-Bonus-Related-
If while playing at 32Red you win a sum regarded by 32Red as worthy of publicity then you hereby agree to be available for any event arranged by 32Red in relation to the win: So If I win, I must become their spokesman?

Bonus-Related-
In the interests of fair gaming, there is a limit on the maximum bet size you can place during the playthrough of the no-deposit bonus: No. It is in the interests of preventing losses at the casino. There is nothing fair about it. Just say what it is and do not patronize me.

The casino may, at their sole discretion, change the terms and conditions for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users. No correspondence will be entered into. 32Red's decision will be considered final in the event of a dispute: No responsibility clause. This one seemed innocuous and commonplace at first, but the wording caught my eye. Basically, as a player, they are saying that it is your responsibility to read the T&C's before, at least hypothetically, every game. And if you somehow still get screwed, too bad. They won't even talk to you because they are always right.

This......

If while playing at 32Red you win a sum regarded by 32Red as worthy of publicity then you hereby agree to be available for any event arranged by 32Red in relation to the win: So If I win, I must become their spokesman?

I think this guy needs to sit and read the EULA`s of any internet based companies that require you to sign up and play on their servers, even if you create a character and play a game that costs you a monthly fixed sum, the character never belongs to you, it always belongs to the respective company, if for some bizarre reason this character achieves something worthy of internet fame, and becomes a huge publicity asset for the company, then they will use it as such, whether you want to or not.

There are not many online casinos out there who wouldn`t want pictures and names of their recent PJP winner elevated to millionaire status, plastered all over their websites, are there?.

And.........


Bonus-Related-

In the interests of fair gaming, there is a limit on the maximum bet size you can place during the playthrough of the no-deposit bonus: No. It is in the interests of preventing losses at the casino. There is nothing fair about it. Just say what it is and do not patronize me.

Now, let`s bring this into context, there are two sides to every story, he, deliberately failed to mention any other aspects that would induce the necessity of having these rules......

1). 32Red offer the largest MGS no deposit bonus out there (32 chips for your respective country`s currency).

2). There are many people out there who make a living from multi accounting and milking casinos from the sole use of free cash.

3). It is a well known fact that no matter what, if you keep trying to win big with the same starting balance, you will eventually do it, be it - the same person using just one account and serial depositing, or - several accounts using the same starting balance....

A quick test and a bit of fun for those reading this thread, go play at any casino that has demo/fun mode and keep betting 32 chips on the same number until you hit it, enjoy your 1152 win.

A 32 credits bonus chip from MGS casino`s carries a x30 w/r = 960, 1152 minus 960 = 192 chips, hit big, grind out the w/r on a low variance slot and have at least 1000 credits of free cash, need I say more .

 

[immortality]

If someone is 'Anti-Casino' why would they bother to gamble at all? The only person you can be anti at is yourself, after all, nobody twists your arm to gamble, you do it out of your own accord, at whichever casino you choose to play at (hypothetically speaking).

Though I don't think it is right to have a bonus automatically gave to you, it should be your choice to accept one or not.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So a few Accred casinos have some Terms that you have managed to distort into something (potentially) nasty. In many cases your interpretation is just something you've pulled out of thin air. So what? I read many of those Terms and see something quite different. Many of them are CYA terms ("Cover Your Ass") that are there in case they need to protect themselves. Are there actual cases on record of them being enforced in the manner you suggest they could be? In many, many cases the answer would have to be "no".

I dunno max, the Red Flush T&C:

If the casino deems that the autoplay feature has been used for the purpose of meeting bonus account wagering requirements, Red Flush reserves the right to void winnings

Is off the scale nuthouse IMO.

Autoplay is built into the MG software, and I ALWAYS use autoplay at MG casinos, whether I'm trying to meet a WR or not. I set the thresholds nice and low (usually stop after 100 spins or 10x stake or feature trigger, quickspin turned off) but I simply prefer playing slots with autoplay turned on.

Red Flush seriously want to suggest that if I play their slots using autoplay they can void my winnings if I'm meeting a WR?

Whether or not this term has ever been invoked is neither here nor there, the fact that Red Flush reserve the right to void winnings based on a fundamental and user configurable element of the MG software is psychotically anti-player.

(And for the record, I do actually have an account at Red Flush and have done for years.)

Again, I'm thanking Cylon for his post, because I think this is a drum that needs to be banged.

 

[immortality]

I dunno max, the Red Flush T&C:



Is off the scale nuthouse IMO.

Autoplay is built into the MG software, and I ALWAYS use autoplay at MG casinos, whether I'm trying to meet a WR or not. I set the thresholds nice and low (usually stop after 100 spins or 10x stake or feature trigger, quickspin turned off) but I simply prefer playing slots with autoplay turned on.

Red Flush seriously want to suggest that if I play their slots using autoplay they can void my winnings if I'm meeting a WR?

Whether or not this term has ever been invoked is neither here nor there, the fact that Red Flush reserve the right to void winnings based on a fundamental and user configurable element of the MG software is psychotically anti-player.

(And for the record, I do actually have an account at Red Flush and have done for years.)

Again, I'm thanking Cylon for his post, because I think this is a drum that needs to be banged.

I use autoplay also Chopley, that is why it pays to read the t&c's beforehand, I think Red Flush should revise this part of T&C's after all, why have the autoplay feature if it is against the Terms & Conditions, it is nonsensical

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I use autoplay also Chopley, that is why it pays to read the t&c's beforehand, I think Red Flush should revise this part of T&C's after all, why have the autoplay feature if it is against the Terms & Conditions, it is nonsensical

Yeah but if a casino is going to go to those sorts of ridiculous lengths in their T&Cs they may as well have a clause that reads:

If the casino deems that at any time you have pressed the START button to begin a spin of the reels on a slots game, the casino reserves the right to void your winnings, steal your deposit, and come round to your house to sexually violate your pets.

I'm with Cylon on this, Red Flush reserve the right to void your winnings if you use autoplay?........

It really is in there!

Old Attachment (Invalid)

 

[immortality]

Yeah but if a casino is going to go to those sorts of ridiculous lengths in their T&Cs they may as well have a clause that reads:

If the casino deems that at any time you have pressed the START button to begin a spin of the reels on a slots game, the casino reserves the right to void your winnings, steal your deposit, and come round to your house to sexually violate your pets.

I'm with Cylon on this, Red Flush reserve the right to void your winnings if you use autoplay?........

It really is in there!

Old Attachment (Invalid)

I see your point Chopley, I can see where this can be frowned upon, I wouldn't play at a casino that has that term, sure if it is a NDB that they are referring to I wouldn't have a problem, but if I deposit, take a bonus, use autoplay, hit a nice win, go to cash out and be held accountable for using autoplay, my winnings are then voided, 'that is stealing'! No doubt about that.

There is even autoplay on land based slots