Betfred Dispute

Wesbr00m

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Hi all,

I played a welcome bonus on Betfred casino last year, and ended up winning a good amount through it. Trouble was, when I'd finished doing the wagering requirement, they confiscated my winning saying that I'd used a bot to do the wagering before me, when in fact I'd done it myself over the course of a night. I contacted gambling grumbles to ask them to help with the situation, the results of which are here:

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(NOTE: I don't want to step on anyone's toes here or anything, so if im not allowed to link to this, please let me know and ill edit it to get rid of it and provide a longer explanation.)

To condense the report, basically Betfred have suspicions based on playing style and length that I used a bot program to complete the wagering. I tried to explain that I didn't, and that the signs that they have used to deny me my winnings aren't applicable, because I didn't use a bot! I sat there for most of a night playing blackjack so I could get my winnings out. When the results came out, gambling grumbles said the best course of action would be to pay me the winnings and close my account (a move i wouldn't have any problem with as I wouldn't go back there to play with an issue like this!). They however have stuck with their original policy to keep my winnings and refund my deposit, even though they don't even have any proof that a bot was used.

I don't really know what to do from here, so I thought I'd ask on other forums to see if there's any other avenues I can down do to get what I'm owed. To be honest the money would do a lot of good at this time!

Thanks everyone, hope you can help
Gemma
 

Simmo!

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I don't have an answer but I think rules against bot play on games with a house edge are just plain wrong. Poker is a different kettle of fish but a game against a computer with a house bias built in? Ridiculous. If the reason is that the bonus raises the RTP above 100% then don't allow the bonus to be used on BJ. Simple.

Anyway, rules is rules even if they are stupid but IMO they should provide evidence of bot use, not use the phrase "good reason to believe" and I can't see that they have done so. One could go via the Legislative Jurisdiction but history suggests that's a waste of time...might be worth a try though.

I would normally suggest PAB'ing (Pitch A Bitch) through this site but if you have gone through GG chances are that's a waste of time. Don't really see a solution.
 

Betfred

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Hi Gemma and Simmo,

I've just taken on the role of casino manager at Betfred and will look into this.

Simmo, firstly, hope you're well - it's been too long! No doubt see you at the conferences soon. Back on point, I certainly see where you're coming from, but the house rules are designed to prevent bots that play for players and determine strategy, both of which are not in the spirit of casino.

Gemma, despite this being some time ago I would like to review the decision made here. Can you PM me your account username, please?

Many thanks,

Aaron
Casino Manager
Betfred
 

Simmo!

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Hi Aaron,

Well there's a turn-up :) Good to have you there though and let's chat about this at some stage. You can try and convince me how a Bot can help a player beat a house edge ;)

Thanks for offering to review this by the way.


Cheers,

Simmo!
 

Surasanji

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Glort!

Hi Aaron,

Well there's a turn-up :) Good to have you there though and let's chat about this at some stage. You can try and convince me how a Bot can help a player beat a house edge ;)

Thanks for offering to review this by the way.


Cheers,

Simmo!

And here are some Robot Facts for you!

Lovingly stolen from my copy of Firefox, like a thief in the night. :D

*Robots may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

*Robots have seen things you people wouldn't believe.

*Robots are Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun To Be With.

*Robots have shiny metal posteriors which should not be bitten.

And they have a plan.



CLEARLY! That plan is to super-hack casino software using their cold metal fingers and super bionic brains and change the nature of how the games work by confusing the server-side with backwards trinary bit-code. :p

I'd be curious to hear the results of this discussion when you're done- I always figured a Bot on most of these casino games would just be a great way to automatically lose your money. With an amazing upturn in efficiency, as well!

Like a betting system, or lighting paper money on fire!
Only you know, Cold and calculating like a Robot....
 

Betfred

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You obviously haven't seen 'I, Robot', Surasanji ref the first line! The rest holds true though, especially the shiny metal posterior -seen enough Futurama!

Human's make mistakes, they take risks, are effected by their environment and the fun of gambling; the industry factors this in when offering bonuses on some games to make them competitive. Bots takes this slim edge away on games like blackjack, wagering tiny amounts of perfect strategy over days sometimes. But, yeah, this a conversation over a drink! :)

Simmo, definitely. Will ping you my details.

Cheers!

Aaron
 

Surasanji

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You obviously haven't seen 'I, Robot', Surasanji ref the first line! The rest holds true though, especially the shiny metal posterior -seen enough Futurama!

Human's make mistakes, they take risks, are effected by their environment and the fun of gambling; the industry factors this in when offering bonuses on some games to make them competitive. Bots takes this slim edge away on games like blackjack, wagering tiny amounts of perfect strategy over days sometimes. But, yeah, this a conversation over a drink! :)

Simmo, definitely. Will ping you my details.

Cheers!

Aaron


All of the references are from popular shows, or other Robot pop-sci.

The Three rules of robotics, for instance (The first point) First shows up in Isaac Asimov's story Runaround. ;)

I'd have to say my main issue with your above explanation is that it assumes a human is unable to ignore the environment around them to hyperfocus on a task- Given an online situation this is made easier.

The environment of betting is my house. Where I'm quite comfortable. The 'distractions' are entirely self chosen- and I'm able to stare at the glowy hypno-box in front of me until my eyes burn just clicking. I could have any one of the hundreds of websites showing me the appropriate play method (My favorite is to hang out on wizard of odds) and I, at least, possess the PURE STRENGTH OF WILL!!!! to ignore my hunches and go with the math.

Maybe not for days on end, but if one is playing to perfect strategy and stops for 24 hours with a balance.. It won't matter when they pick it up again as long as they continue to play to perfect strategy- the house edge is minimized, but not totally removed. The Damage is done.

Unless said bot is using some kind of recording/history/tracking method to try and guess how the RNG is working (which would be an insane feat in itself) this, to me, seems like the same as a betting system. Just a great way to give a casino your money. :)

Oh! And Futurama? My FAVORITE show of all time

People said I was dumb, but I proved them!!!! :D
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
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Location
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You obviously haven't seen 'I, Robot', Surasanji ref the first line! The rest holds true though, especially the shiny metal posterior -seen enough Futurama!

Human's make mistakes, they take risks, are effected by their environment and the fun of gambling; the industry factors this in when offering bonuses on some games to make them competitive. Bots takes this slim edge away on games like blackjack, wagering tiny amounts of perfect strategy over days sometimes. But, yeah, this a conversation over a drink! :)

Simmo, definitely. Will ping you my details.

Cheers!

Aaron

Well, HUMANS can play games like bots too! There are kids that can play for HOURS on a games console and focus entirely on the task at hand. This has been seen since Space Invaders first came out. Playing "like a bot" is NOT a breach of the terms, so some substantive proof is needed that the bets were generated by a software application, and simply claiming this is so just because perfect play is seen is not enough. Blackjack strategy is pretty simple, and can be learned much faster than the perfect strategy for a video game.
 

Seventh777

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Well, HUMANS can play games like bots too! There are kids that can play for HOURS on a games console and focus entirely on the task at hand. This has been seen since Space Invaders first came out. Playing "like a bot" is NOT a breach of the terms, so some substantive proof is needed that the bets were generated by a software application, and simply claiming this is so just because perfect play is seen is not enough. Blackjack strategy is pretty simple, and can be learned much faster than the perfect strategy for a video game.

The one deciding factor when determining between humans and bots are response times, measured in milliseconds, no matter how skilled the human is there will always be an identical time stamp from a bot, this aspect alone will reveal a bot being used.

Pfft, Space Invaders, I remember the birth of video games in pubs etcetera and that birth began with Break the Wall :p.
 

Betfred

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Hi vinylweatherman and Seventh777,

It certainly isn't an offence to play like a bot, all credit to those that can sit there and burn out their retinas :) but even those kids that are robot-like make mistakes (they lose/throw their controllers at the wall etc!), no human can make perfect decisions as quick and continuously as bots can.

Oh, and I'm all for conclusive proof being needed too, otherwise it would be all too easy for casinos to deny people their rightful winnings. That's why I would like to review this case and to see how this conclusion was reach at Betfred previously.

The timestamp is one factor we look at, Seventh777. If we see a considerable series of games lasting the same exact amount of time, normally a matter of seconds, then it's a core indicator. Also there are mouse-over actions the client can detect but these logs are limited, and may not be available from a session so long ago. Again, I need Gemma's username.

Cheers,

Aaron
 

Tirilej

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A little of topic maybe but this thread made me think of what casinos actually can read out of us players behaviour.

I know absolutely nothing about softwares, programming or bot's, but I get that you said you have clients that read things like time and mouse-over actions.

Is that some kind of program that gives you a warning that something isn't right with that players play?;)

Is this what you can use to detect if someone has set up multiple accounts to defraud the casinos?

Can it be used to determine if someone is a compulsive gambler by it's playbehaviour?

Sorry if I derailing a little but it's interesting:)
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
Joined
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Location
Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
A little of topic maybe but this thread made me think of what casinos actually can read out of us players behaviour.

I know absolutely nothing about softwares, programming or bot's, but I get that you said you have clients that read things like time and mouse-over actions.

Is that some kind of program that gives you a warning that something isn't right with that players play?;)

Is this what you can use to detect if someone has set up multiple accounts to defraud the casinos?

Can it be used to determine if someone is a compulsive gambler by it's playbehaviour?

Sorry if I derailing a little but it's interesting:)

There are many ways to catch a multi account user hun, even if they disguise their IP, every part of your hardware carries a unique ID (like a car registration number), so if you set up multi accounts using the same PC you will get busted.

Bots etcetera, if you have ever played an online game especially an MMORPG (Massively Multi Online Role Playing Game), you would notice that crafting plays a huge role in these games, now the general rules in these games are thus - You must be actually operating your character at all times when they are actively doing something, now some players would use a crafting macro that would automatically create things using game codes and scripting, others would use farming (grinding for experience points, materials, cash etcetera) bots, so to catch these players out most of the big guns of MMO`s use a certain software to track down illegal 3rd party software`s - World of Warcraft the market leader of these games uses a software named Sentry.

I would say for certain that some casinos use identical software in their battle against fraudsters and scammers ;).
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
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There are many ways to catch a multi account user hun, even if they disguise their IP, every part of your hardware carries a unique ID (like a car registration number), so if you set up multi accounts using the same PC you will get busted.

Bots etcetera, if you have ever played an online game especially an MMORPG (Massively Multi Online Role Playing Game), you would notice that crafting plays a huge role in these games, now the general rules in these games are thus - You must be actually operating your character at all times when they are actively doing something, now some players would use a crafting macro that would automatically create things using game codes and scripting, others would use farming (grinding for experience points, materials, cash etcetera) bots, so to catch these players out most of the big guns of MMO`s use a certain software to track down illegal 3rd party software`s - World of Warcraft the market leader of these games uses a software named Sentry.

I would say for certain that some casinos use identical software in their battle against fraudsters and scammers ;).

And I would say for certain that I really could use a special dictionary for translating your posts sometimes:D
..crafting macro..game codes and scripting...farming...MMO's...:oops:

I try to decode it but please try a lower level next time boy:p
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
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And I would say for certain that I really could use a special dictionary for translating your posts sometimes:D
..crafting macro..game codes and scripting...farming...MMO's...:oops:

I try to decode it but please try a lower level next time boy:p

A macro is a scripted (data coding) tool that will undergo many actions in one click of a button, MMO`s is a gaming acronym the shortened version of MMORPG (I explained this in my 1st reply), game coding is the specific scripting for the relative game, although a lot of coding is universal all games have their own unique coding.

Hope that helped ;).

Girl.
 

Wesbr00m

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Clacton
Hi again everyone,

Thanks first of all to Aaron from Betfred for re-opening this, I didn't really know what to do after things stalled last time! I've just emailed you my username at Betfred and my email so we can discuss things again.

Secondly, thanks to everyone else for their opinions and comments - whilst I don't know much about bots and stuff, there's some interesting stuff about how you could tell the difference between a computer program and a human! I really appreciate such a quick reply about it all though - thanks everyone :)

Gemma
 

TheLastCylon

Banned User - violation of rule 1.19
It certainly isn't an offence to play like a bot, all credit to those that can sit there and burn out their retinas :) but even those kids that are robot-like make mistakes (they lose/throw their controllers at the wall etc!), no human can make perfect decisions as quick and continuously as bots can.

I don't mean to blatantly belligerent, but this is absurd. You have apparently never witnessed expert blackjack players who have memorized perfect strategy and never waver. I can play blackjack with flawless strategy for hours, and I'm not even half the player of some other people that I know.

There is a good reason why this sort of argument is specifically rejected in Casinomeister's own philosophy section.

And I quote, "Bots will not change the game's math, nor will they foresee random numbers or predict the future. Bots only speed game play, and if the odds are in the house's favor (which in most cases they are), bots will only allow the player to lose money at a faster rate."

The bot exclusion is implemented either by a casino operator who doesn't understand his/her own games, or simply as an excuse to not pay out.
 

Surasanji

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Israel
I see many references to robots in this thread without one quote from a film that inspired many...Blade Runner.

Tut, you youngsters ;).

I prefer R.U.R. for my Robotic inspirations. :)

And here is today's history lesson for the origin of the word Robot! :D
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The funny thing is an awful play. But that one word- Robot. Well. We're all using it all over the world! :D
 

Betfred

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TheLastCylon,

I understand the logic here but the banning of bots is a practice in place to protect the gaming environment as much as anything else; some bots have brought down gaming servers, and some can influence results. Allowing bots would expose the casino to risks.

Cheers,

Aaron

I don't mean to blatantly belligerent, but this is absurd. You have apparently never witnessed expert blackjack players who have memorized perfect strategy and never waver. I can play blackjack with flawless strategy for hours, and I'm not even half the player of some other people that I know.

There is a good reason why this sort of argument is specifically rejected in Casinomeister's own philosophy section.

And I quote, "Bots will not change the game's math, nor will they foresee random numbers or predict the future. Bots only speed game play, and if the odds are in the house's favor (which in most cases they are), bots will only allow the player to lose money at a faster rate."

The bot exclusion is implemented either by a casino operator who doesn't understand his/her own games, or simply as an excuse to not pay out.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
TheLastCylon,

I understand the logic here but the banning of bots is a practice in place to protect the gaming environment as much as anything else; some bots have brought down gaming servers, and some can influence results. Allowing bots would expose the casino to risks.

Cheers,

Aaron


This I find hard to believe - specific example please.

Bringing down servers is possible, but only where a large number of players use a bot at the same time, which is normally an organised event.

The argument here is the level of evidence for bot use, with the allegation being that this was "suspicion" of bot use, rather than "hard evidence", such as a known bot process found running.

Whilst humans make mistakes, they are not REQUIRED to do so, so the lack of mistakes alone cannot be considered "proof" of bot use.
 

Nifty29

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Slightly off topic here but....

I notice betfred has some new slots. Great!

Went to try them, and the MINIMUM bet is $4 PER SPIN. I mean, that's crazy. All 3 new slots are affected. Surely this can be reduced?

Also, there is a new "soft slot" like a circular jenga....and the bet goes from .20c to $1 then straight to $100! Again, it is crazy. It's almost like they don't want people to play.

Perhaps the rep can explain these policies?
 

Nate

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There is also the issue where the 0.02c denomination has been removed.

I could start on 0.01c and increase my bets to the max on 0.01c but the next denomination is 0.05c. I could come to a compromise on the 0.05c denomination, however it is forcing me to increase my bets if I wish to do so at a higher rate than at 0.02c.

Care to comment Aaron?

Nate
 

chuchu59

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There is also the issue where the 0.02c denomination has been removed.

I could start on 0.01c and increase my bets to the max on 0.01c but the next denomination is 0.05c. I could come to a compromise on the 0.05c denomination, however it is forcing me to increase my bets if I wish to do so at a higher rate than at 0.02c.

Care to comment Aaron?

Nate

Playtech is out of bounds for me but I wonder if this only applies to Betfred or is a Playtech thing?
 

Simmo!

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Playtech is out of bounds for me but I wonder if this only applies to Betfred or is a Playtech thing?

Playtech seem to allow ther operators to choose the denominations. There certainly are a lot of differences between operators. But reading between the lines I think Nifty is talking about the BetFred Games site which has other games?
 

Nifty29

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Playtech seem to allow ther operators to choose the denominations. There certainly are a lot of differences between operators. But reading between the lines I think Nifty is talking about the BetFred Games site which has other games?

Hey Simmo!

I was referring to three new slots in the download client. A viking one, a gem one and a panda one. All have min line bet of .20 and have 20 or 25 lines. Absolutely ridiculous IMO.
 
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