Major Absolute Poker Issue

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Second - The so called "proof" shown at the other forum... does NOT prove anything.

It seems from a 2+2 thread most of the non believers do not use Poker Tracker and all of the Poker Tracker users are 100% believers. This leads me to believe the stats might need more explaining to help non PT users fully understand.

One cheat account has stats of 94/72 with overall aggression factors over 20 with river AF's that cannot be calculated because he never calls, he only folds or raises. He is winning 32BB/100 in limit and 311ptbb/100 in NL. So what does all this mean?

The first stat I show as 94 means that a player puts money in the pot preflop 94% of the time. It is safe to say that 5 of the other 6% are unraised big blinds so this means the player is flopping 99% of the time. Out of 100 hands he only flops once, maybe twice before the flop. In one 100 hand sample this player folded 3 times. Once a player held AA, another time a player held QQ and a 3rd time it had been 3 bet when it got to him. In the third hand no hands were shown so it cannot be determined what he or the other 2 players had.

The 72 refers to his preflop raise %. So not only is he flopping virtually every hand (unless another player has a monster) he is raising preflop 72% of the time. Since he seems to play an average of 4.5 players per hand he is raising roughly every time each orbit except once.

The 32bb/100 in limit refers to a win rate of 32 big bets per 100 hands. In the limits where these accusations have been made this would mean that every 100 hands this particular player is winning an astonishing $9600. The 311ptbb/100 is slightly different then limit. 1 ptbb is double the big blind in NL. This player is playing 10/20 NL. His win rate per 100 hands in NL is $12,440. A good player might win 5bb/100 and 10ptbb/100. Even 100 hands would be a big enough sample to know something was up. To put it in a more normal stake formula this would be like winning over $1200 in an hour of 1/2 NL and being able to do it consistently. With the posted PT's this would mean for you to mimic the same results in a 10 hour day you would have to win over $12,000 in 1/2 NL. That's right, over a $12,000 win in a day long $2 big blind NL game. If you use PT find 1 player with 50+ hands that has these stats or better. It's simple you can't, especially the infinite river AF. You probably can't find a player with win rates half that with over 50 hands and with 1000 hands you will certainly not.

Also this players W$atSD (won money at showdown) is over 90% and keep in mind none of these losses are with him calling a second best hand. All the losses are from players going all in before the river or from a handful of cheat open checks and op checks. Since he can see others cards why would he call a loser? He either has you beat or he doesn't.

How is this player flopping every hand, raising almost every hand preflop, winning every showdown he puts money in the pot for and taking the iggest winrate in history? There's only 1 answer. Any poker player knows a 94/72 player is a total maniac fish that is going to go bust very quickly.

Combine this with the massive chip dump last night of roughly $30,000 calling hands like an unimproved 34 on the river for $1700 while getting accused left and right for previous cheating and the fact AP is ignoring everybody demanding an immediate statement is really damning. Why hasn't AP locked these accounts yet? Why has AP ignored players since even before this went public? One of these players chip dumped an entire bankroll midweek last week. That's why this finally broke. Why would AP allow that?

If all of this does not convince you what will?

FWIW I have not been taken for anything. I simply posted about this because this is a very serious situation that needs to be addressed by AP and needs to be recognized by the entire industry. Either they have been hacked or they have been cheating. If they were hacked and have still done nothing, not even lock accounts then they have really screwed up. If they are in on it then they have ruined their business. There are many that believe Mark Seif is involved. I think that is far fetched but the more AP ignores this the more speculation that will come out. Mark Seif has been accused of this very thing in the past at AP even though that evidence did not have any facts unlike the mountain of evidence here.

Believe the facts or dismiss them as made up if you choose. The only way I can see how one could dismiss these allegations is if they believe all of facts are made up, not because multiple players can play like that and win even a little, much less an absolute fortune in one of the highest limit games online against some of the biggest names in online poker. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.
 
The Watchdog,

Funny to see you here.

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Why are 10/11 of your posts at 2+2 Absolute Poker related? You've already been called out there by the internet gambling mod for shilling Absolute Poker and having a related account to 2 other Absolute Poker spammers, at least one of them is in upper management of Absolute Entertainment. This is what I mean about the shill/spam campaigns Absolute Poker has been on at 2+2.
 
Mark Seif responds. IMO opinion he had nothing to do with it anyway. As he mentions he has lost a ton of cash there. He's right, he could very well be a victim too.

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i was just made aware of these serious allegations this morning while playing at the wpt event at the borgata, where i am presently. while i have not had a chance to investigate this matter, i can tell you and anyone else who believes or for whatever reason has stated that i am somehow involved in this matter, unequivocally, i do not now, nor have i ever, had the ability to see hole cards on any poker site i have ever played at including absolute poker.

i doubt my results would be what they are if i had the ability to see my opponents' hole cards. in fact, i am almost certainly the biggest all-time loser on the site and have been crushed in the big games for a long, very long time. if anything, i would very much like this matter thoroughly investigated so that we can all find out what has happened, and if appropriate, to take swift remedial action such as seizing funds and returning them to the players cheated, including myself, if in fact, ap's security protections have been compromised.
 
As a former pre-UGIEA high-stakes limit and no limit pro, I have to say the evidence is somewhat damning, but lets go by issues:

1.) Issue one, blatant chip-dumping in highstakes NL games. There have been 3-4 hand histories of several thousand dollar hands where on the river, player A bets everything aside from $1. Player B raises and Player A folds. This is just blatant chip-dumping and obvious fraud. There is no legitimate poker explanation, and for stakes this high, I really cannot believe this was an accidental misclick for thousands more than one time. Frankly, this kind of activity with this much money is enough of a red flag to me that I will almost certainly never play at Absolute again.

2.) The Pokertracker stats are pretty damning. The one caveat I really have here, is that the sample sizes I've seen posted on 2+2 and in other threads are only running 3-500 hands deep. I think that it is probably possible that a player could cherry pick the right hand histories to create what looks like an unreasonable set of stats, but it would be fairly unlikely. If players had this kind of sample size over something like 5,000 hands I think it would be inarguable that it is not legitimate poker. What is particularly alarming and Absolute will need to clear up is:

a.) river aggression stats I've seen are pretty much impossible. One player over 500 hands had an actual infinite river aggression factor. That means he literally raises or folds on every single river, and supports very strongly the claim that he is able to view an opponents hole cards. On the river he knows 100% whether he has the player beat or whether the player likely has so bad of a hand that they pretty much can't call a river raise.

b.) Some of the accounts I've watched have made extremely strange preflop actions that only make sense if they could see other cards. For example, a hand history where in a 150/300 6-handed short game, a player open calls with 10/10 in middle position. 10/10 is a no-brainer raise when you are opening a pot from any position in six-max. The Small blind coincidentally had pocket aces this hand which seems to me like he knows that if he flops a ten, he can smash the pocket aces and if he misses on the flop he will have no problem knowing where he is at in the hand and folding. Lots of equity here. Another example, a player open limps q/10 suited on the button when the small blind has pocket aces again. A huge part of short-handed preflop play is the folding equity you gain from raising a wider range of hands because the overall hand strength is much lower, and you are additionally forcing people behind you out making for larger pots where you are essentially in control of the hand by being in position. Limping on the button with almost anything doesn't really make sense unless you are specifically trying to trap the blinds and let them see a cheap flop when you have a big pair.

c.) the NL stats and hand histories I have show some ridiculous calls with hands such as ten high, jack high, etc to win very large pots in situations where no high stakes player could call regardless of the strength of their read. I could see calling with ace and king high in a few situations, but even when you have a particularly strong read, there is essentially no situation in which you can legitimately think your ten high is the best hand and call down a pot-sized bet.

With those three very glaring problems, I'd say I'm leaning about 85/15 towards absolute being rigged vs not rigged, and I'm pretty much the last online gambling is rigged theorist you could possibly find. I've dressed down a number of people for claiming casinos have rigged blackjack and the like on well-known and regulated software, but this looks like a legitimate problem. I think another explanation is simply that there are super-user accounts used for admin and security purposes by the company (to check for collusion, chip dumping, etc) and somehow players either hacked their way into obtaining one, or they are working with someone in absolute security who changed the security level setting to that of a security worker.

That being said, I have fairly intimate knowledge that at least Poker Stars is specifically not rigged.
 
I'm confused, why would the cheats be dumping chips?
To try to make it look like they aren't cheaters who never lose.

But an infinite aggression factor is, for all intents and purposes, impossible, so the chip-dumping is too little too late.

For Absolute Poker to not do or say anything about this speaks volumes about their credibility.
 
I couldn't read all the threads, but two questions came to my mind:
Why the hacked PT explanation was not discussed further? I recall that the PT site was hacked, and I trojan with a PT patch could explain the hole cards.
Would not a 100% VPIP player be destined to lose even in case he knows all of his 5 opponents' hole cards? I think it's a close one because of his implied odds and rebluff calls and raises, but still, against 5 opponents playing correctly, he can't hit his hands that often... And since almost all 6max pots are raised/reraised preflop, he should lose enough equity preflop to compensate cases when both he and his opponents miss the flop/turn (or he hits third pair when his opponent misses). I guess those are the cases in limit holdem when he could use his knowledge...
 
AP's response

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The players and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other players hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

Im not going to bother questioning it. Im sure the high stakes players will work it out among themselves whether or not they can trust the site, time will tell but I'll use that as my indication.
 
pokernews is just a website, rehashing what is coming from the forums. Now if it was a public statement coming from a gaming commission or something I would take note
 
Gary, Thanks for posting that letter from Absolute Poker.

There were some on this board that acted like AP was ignoring these accusations. Most of us knew that was not true.

I do think your correct, that the high stakes Players will sort this out themselves, after all it is their money.

Side Note: I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP. This is something that I believe needs to end immediately, for the benefit of ALL online players.

Or

If AP does not want to restrict access to poker tracker, then it should clearly provide the information on its front page or sign up page that this type of software is available (for a price) and that AP allows it's use FOR ALL PLAYERS.
 
pokernews is just a website, rehashing what is coming from the forums. Now if it was a public statement coming from a gaming commission or something I would take note

I fear you may be missing the point here, and that is that this issue is now breaking out of the fora and into the news, which is a significant development.

And it would appear from the content of the report that Absolute Poker have issued a statement of sorts, and that an investigation is continuing.

I think they may have to do better than that as this report gathers momentum.
 
I have to agree with Gary here, that UK Pokernews is really not a news provider and that article was NOT written using the JOURNALISTIC CODE that has been adopted by news agencies and Journalists since the end of the 2nd World War.

And having two threads on the same subject is very very annoying...

The other thread has has a response from Absolute Poker.

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out. Kinda like chicken little, running around yelling that the sky is falling.
 
For the record

For the record (in this thread) here's the Absolute response to which Lots0 refers, dated today and from the other thread on this topic (I agree - two threads on the same topic can be distracting, but it happens on occasion!)

QUOTE:

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The players and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other players hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

UNQUOTE

Seems to me that this is the same response which the Poker News article has included in its report for balance...and there's no denying that this is a topic that is being widely debated here and on other fora.
 
As noted, more than one thread is confusing - thus they are merged :D

and so it goes...

Sorry, I posted it to let others know since this is such a slow forum. I see now it was a bad idea. It is however important for all to see what is going on. I could have done that in a better way.

I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP.

I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google. Poker Tracker is a software that tracks hands from hand histories you receive from hands you have played or watched. The following sites knowingly allow Poker Tracker to be used on their site. It is far from a cheating software.

Absolute Poker, Party Poker, Poker Stars, Ultimate Bet, Full Tilt Poker, Pacific Poker, CryptoLogic Network, iPoker Network, Prima Network, Ladbrokes, Everest Poker, B2B Network, Ongame, World Poker Exchange, Bodog and Betfair. These sites all have designed hand histories to be compatible with many tracking programs. I don't like it either but it is far from cheating. Poker Tracker alsio helps protect players against cheats and when situations like this come up cheating can be obvious and cheaters can be punished. Without Poker Tracker this cheating could have gone on forever.

Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year (and w/o the UIGEA the biggest story in 5 years) to the community. I'm confused as to why. You even go so far as go to other Absolute threads and call out a poster that had his account locked and even came back to say all was resolved. Why?

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out.

This is obviously far from a rumor.

There were some on this board that acted like AP was ignoring these accusations. Most of us knew that was not true.

Oh? Why was a cheating account chip dumping 4 days after this story broke? Why did AP ignore emails both before and after the story broke? How can AP say nothing odd has been seen when many players have emailed hh's from an obvious chip dumping session?

Like I said if you choose to decide the screenshots and hand histories are fake that is your choice. I've posted several times this year why IMO Absolute Poker is a shady poker room. I guess this is why this was not surprising to me at all and I have had little faith about their involvement and whether they were involved or if they will even do anything about it in the end.
 
OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.

As one of the posters at 2+2 said
It is pretty obvious that if these guys are colluding they are very bad at it and arent really hiding it at all.
Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...

Pokeraddict said;
Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year.
First I am not 'resentful', I am flabbergasted that such a bullshit story has gotten such coverage.

2nd - No way this is the biggest story in online poker... In order for this to be the biggest story, it first has to be true... And this is so obviously not true.

pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.
 
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I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google.
I call it 'Poker Grabber', some call it 'Hand Grabber' or 'History Grabber'. Whatever you call it, they are programs that grab (steal?) other peoples hand histories so you can use your computers power and programs like 'Poker Tracker' to analyze the way people play and then track them around the different poker rooms and then relieve them of their money.

You can't do this kinda crap in a 'real' land based poker room, so you should not be able to do it online... But that is just my opinion and I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion about the ethics of 'Poker Grabber' and 'Poker Tracker' like computer programs.
 
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Side Note: I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP. This is something that I believe needs to end immediately, for the benefit of ALL online players.

PokerTracker is not a "cheating program". The 2+2 posters who provided data are sharing the hand histories that were saved to the hard disk by the Absolute Poker client itself. The PokerTracker program simply loads these files and displays statistics on the hands.

Without PokerTracker the players would have very little chance of detecting cases of cheating. Do you want to rely 100% on the so-called "Security department" of a poker site that has consistently proven itself inept at putting its customers' interests first? I don't.

-pyg
 
@ pygmyhipo
I guess you did not read the part about NOT hijacking this thread with a discussion about the ethics of these types of programs.

P.S. It's real simple, if you don't trust them don't play there... You don't need a computer program for that.
 
First: The Watchdog is a pretty obvious shrill. His posts on 2+2 involve things like "I'll have my friend look into your account problem".

Second: Here's an example of a hand from PotRipper where he made it very deep into a $1,000 buyin online NL tournament:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI:($428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]


So he calls for his stack with 10 high, no draws on the turn? I'm sorry, this is frankly unbelievable for a high stakes winning limit and no limit player with very strong win stats.

Another super-suspicious hand to me involving another questionable account. This time, GrayCat:



STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI:($4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

So, GrayCat caps the betting preflop, putting in the fourth bet, only to check-fold on an extremely harmless looking flop of 2/2/5?

What hand could he possibly have capped with that he can the so conveniently get away from when his opponent flops a 5 with his pocket fives for his monster hand of 5s full of deuces?
 
OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.
I cant believe your post and Ive registered just to ask you are you trolling or do you just not understand the stats that have been posted? You are asking for "just one small piece of proof" presumably after you have read the thread on 2+2 where there is completely incontrovertible evidence of cheating. The only way you don't see this is if you dont understand how to read the stats.


Then there is the supporting evidence, (although uneccessary as the stats alone are more than sufficient proof of cheating), of never calling on the river, always either raising or folding; winning more than anyone else playing 90%+ of hands, a percentage you would likely not find even on a play money table. How can you honestly believe that someone can turn a massive profit playing some of the biggest names in online poker at very high stakes playing this (beyond retarded donkey) style without having inside info, so I'll ask again do you not understand pokertracker stats?

The hand BBKPoker is the one that I found most amazing of all - calling all in with 10 high on the turn when down to the last two of a mtt.




As one of the posters at 2+2 said
Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...
As every other poster on 2+2 says
They are cheating......


pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.

I'll take it you just don't understand the stats at this stage because you are actually making yourself look very stupid. This is not rumor and innuendo, the statistics have been posted for all to see. Some of the stuff I have seen posted I would imagine would more improbably winning the lottery - a good example being winning "37 buyins (assuming a buyin = 100BB) in 440 hands playing 90/70".
 
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