Major Absolute Poker Issue

[bernynhel]

... have been noticing some weird activity which may even involve seeing opponents cards.

I know for a fact that it is possible as, during 1 hand of a sit n go I could see everyone's hand at the table. Only happened once and I can't explain it let alone understand how someone could cause it at will but there you go.

 

[satchmo]

I dont know if they have a super user account, but i would not belive in that. As the problem itself would be that a user has a specific downloaded/flash version with some changed code in it. That would mean that some programer on the inside have either made a test version a long time ago, i dont see the point of this either. The so called bots used in the casino development, are running night and day to create statistic to see that the game is proper. (we all know some casinos also use those on live versions). So there would be no need to actually have a different code to see the cards on a live function, only purpose is to be able to cheat.

The rng makes millions of shuffles of the deck every minute, so it would be impossible to read it before the cards were dealt, all hands are saved in the databese, at the same time they were dealt.
The cards are only withing the database and never sent to any otehr users.
There could be cheating going on if i have access to the database.
A graphix glitch that missing the top texture, and therefore showing the card. Possible but they are fixed fast. There are some cases in CS that has used the flaws of a graphix card to make walls invisible, so that player sees the others.

And this might be a possible theroy instead of changed software.

Lets take an example:
World of Warcraft is a mmorpg that has over 9 millions player worldwide, the users pay something like 10$ a month. Blizzard are really happy about this.
The you have the people that wants to play but dont want to pay for it.
Some nifty programmer cracks the packets to the server, and recreates the database, and voila suddenly you can create and play on you own server at home, and not having to pay for it.

So manupilating the code to make a specific show all cards program. Nahh to much work.
Using bot play tactics. Nahhh they are designed to flaw also.
Getting acces to read the database itself. Possible and the easiest way.

And btw im not working or affiliated or something else, for these people, just shedding some light and theories.


Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero.

 

[SeattleSinner]

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The player’s and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other player’s hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

I think this response says nothing. How can they say there was no chip dumping when there is blatant evidence. This issue actually hits me personally as I was playing 25/50 FL at this site in July when I had a good month. I had one session where I lost in excess of $1,000 to one of the players in question. I have always felt that AP was running a shady opertion but I never thought it was ever to this type of magnitude. I will not be depositing here anytime soon unless I am assured of the security.

P.S. Was the WatchDog actually found to have an IP linked to Absolute Management? If this is in fact true it would appear that Absolute has something to hide. I honestly believe that based upon the response they have administered it would appear they are involved IMHO.

 

[pokeraddict]

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Lots0, do you feel that the hand histories/PT screenshots are altered or do you feel multiple players can play 90/70/25 with an infinite river AF and a 95% W$atSD and win 30+bb/100 in limit or 300+ptbb/100 in NL? Also do you not feel these players chip dumped? How do you feel about AP allowing these players to play nearly a week after the first email to them and several days after the news broke? Does that help you trust them more, especially since so many feel AP is in on it too?

You've been presented with a mountain of proof, if you choose to ignore it that is your choice. BTW good job quoting the just about only person that agrees with you and ignoring virtually every other post in those 2+2 threads. I wonder if that post has more to do with the chip dumping anyway as obviously chip dumping is collusion.

BTW this hand grabber as you call it is the program used to convert UB hh's into usable PT hh's. The only thing I can figure that you are talking about is datamining which I don't agree with either and has long been debated.

If you feel the hh's have been altered then you may take the hand #'s off the hundreds of posted hh's and get them from AP yourself and compare. Also you can PM Adanthar at 2+2 and you will get a massive db of hands involving these cheats and you can make your own db. If you believe a player can win huge over the some of the biggest online poker names with these stats then I just don't think you understand the stats at all that have been presented to you numerous times. It's simply impossible, it's not even a 1 in a million, it simply can't happen. As mentioned these aren't even stats you would find in a play money game and if you did see it then this player would even lose big in one of those.

I can't figure out why you're saying this isn't proof. Either the stats and hh's are altered or they are not. Beyond that there really isn't much to argue. You seem to be a pretty die hard supporter of AP and that is of course your right but I have to wonder why. I guess you simply don't understand the seriousness of the issue, the PT stats involved, the hand histories showing the cheats actions, the chip dumping and the way Absolute Poker has botched this if they weren't involved to begin with.

First: The Watchdog is a pretty obvious shrill. His posts on 2+2 involve things like "I'll have my friend look into your account problem".

As I have said many times AP has been on a nasty shill/spam campaign at 2+2 for quite some time. You have to love a shill named "The Watchdog". As you might know I mod at 2+2 and his account has been linked to 2 other AP spammers/shills, one of those 2 finally admitted to being AP management. I believe it was their VP. Go search "Pokermachine" at 2+2 and you will see what I mean.

 

[Pinababy69]

If by reading the endless hh's and seeing the PT screenshots with his infinite AF and his and other's impossible stats you are not a believer then I do not think you understand how to read hh's and Poker Tracker.

What is so funny is that one of the accounts just dumped $27,000 in 10/20 NL in what is a classic chip dump. In one hand he called an allin with an unmatched 34.

I didn't understand PT totally PokerAddict, until you fully explained in a later post. I was somewhat on the fence up until that point, but your explanation of the stats totally convinced me.

I was reading at 2+2 the other night while the chip dumping was going on, and the players were posting the HH's. The 3,4 hand almost made me choke, simply unbelievable. And then to actually act surprised, and like he couldn't understand why he was getting such stick from the observers.

That chip dumping episode went a long way in convincing me as well...and there is no way that it was anything BUT chip dumping. NO ONE who can win a 1K buyin, could be stupid enough to legitimately lose as badly as he did that night.

I have read the whole thread. Unless the PT screenshots are fake which I doubt since they come from several known pro's - there is no shadow of doubt that rigged games is happening. Not just slightly rigged, but rigged so bad it is too obvious, which is hard to explain why they would cheat this much.

I couldn't agree more Zoozie. I also have spent many, many hours reading every thread and every post....and trying to digest it all.

I've asked Absolute Poker to respond to this thread. Hopefully they will

Any word from them Bryan?

The whole issue is just amusing...

Amusing? You should go on over to 2+2 and post those sentiments...ha ha. Now THAT would be amusing. Have some negative rep on me. I'll come back to you later.

It seems from a 2+2 thread most of the non believers do not use Poker Tracker and all of the Poker Tracker users are 100% believers. This leads me to believe the stats might need more explaining to help non PT users fully understand........

How is this player flopping every hand, raising almost every hand preflop, winning every showdown he puts money in the pot for and taking the biggest winrate in history? There's only 1 answer. Any poker player knows a 94/72 player is a total maniac fish that is going to go bust very quickly.
Combine this with the massive chip dump last night of roughly $30,000 calling hands like an unimproved 34 on the river for $1700 while getting accused left and right for previous cheating and the fact AP is ignoring everybody demanding an immediate statement is really damning. Why hasn't AP locked these accounts yet? Why has AP ignored players since even before this went public? One of these players chip dumped an entire bankroll midweek last week. That's why this finally broke. Why would AP allow that?

This was the post I referred to earlier PokerAddict. I read it a few times to make sure I totally grasped it. While I do play poker, and do okay (at times), I don't use PT and didn't really grasp the "stats" part of it. Now I do, no problem. And it was like an epiphany when it sunk in. Thank you for explaining it in terms that even I could understand.

I bolded the paragraph I thought most important. You are so right. I've seen players that DO play like this before...BUT, they don't last. Eventually, the luck runs out and they certainly don't go through an entire tourney playing this style, and win it. Simply not possible.

I think they may have to do better than that as this report gathers momentum.

They are gonna have to do WAY better Jetset. I read a few of the Absolute replies to players over at 2+2, and to say they're pathetic is putting it mildly. A few of them were a standard "form" type letter, that basically said nothing untoward had happened...other than a really bad player had a hole lot of luck. No typo there Jetset...they used hole as opposed to whole. Freudian slip perhaps?

The other thread has has a response from Absolute Poker.

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out. Kinda like chicken little, running around yelling that the sky is falling.

The response from Absolute wasn't actually from the pokerroom itself, but from the affiliate manager Danielle. At least that was my understanding. Hardly surprising that the affiliate manager is going to say that all is A-OK in Absolute Land.

As far as spreading rumours, this is much more than a rumour..and I have to wonder lots0, how much poker do you play yourself? You either don't understand the game, or perhaps like myself originally, you are having some problems with understanding the PT stats? Or maybe you believe the HH's are faked?

I know a few places this isn't posted yet, and if I get time, I intend to rectify that ASAP. Gotta feed Google.

Second: Here's an example of a hand from PotRipper where he made it very deep into a $1,000 buyin online NL tournament:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI$428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]


So he calls for his stack with 10 high, no draws on the turn? I'm sorry, this is frankly unbelievable for a high stakes winning limit and no limit player with very strong win stats.

Another super-suspicious hand to me involving another questionable account. This time, GrayCat:



STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI$4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

So, GrayCat caps the betting preflop, putting in the fourth bet, only to check-fold on an extremely harmless looking flop of 2/2/5?

What hand could he possibly have capped with that he can the so conveniently get away from when his opponent flops a 5 with his pocket fives for his monster hand of 5s full of deuces?

Well put BBK. Those two hands are simply beyond explanation. GRAYCAT had no problem calling the raise pre-flop, but folded on a $200 bet on a 2,2,5 flop? Ha ha ha....yeah, blind luck. He just guessed right (time after time after time...into infinity).

The hand BBKPoker is the one that I found most amazing of all - calling all in with 10 high on the turn when down to the last two of a mtt.

Yeah, that hand was another gem. Yet another player with the kind of blind luck and instinct the rest of us can only dream about.

Yeah I figured I could point that out in a subtle way. As I have said many times AP has been on a nasty shill/spam campaign at 2+2 for quite some time. You have to love a shill named "The Watchdog". As you might know I mod at 2+2 and his account has been linked to 2 other AP spammers/shills, one of those 2 finally admitted to being AP management. I believe it was their VP. Go search "Pokermachine" at 2+2 and you will see what I mean.

Thanks for that Pokeraddict. I had seen a post at 2+2 that implied that Watchdog's IP had been linked to an employee of Absolute, but couldn't find it when I went back to look.

Bryan, is there any way that you can do a check on Watchdog's IP? If he is indeed associated with Absolute, then he has no business posting in this thread unless it's going to be in an official capacity. I don't suppose that anyone from Absolute has ever posted here before...so you could actually compare the IP's maybe? Wishful thinking probably.

 

[GaryWatson]

Collusion

Whether you play in brick & mortar card rooms or online, poker players are always aware of the possibility of collusion. Collusion is known as cheating and occurs when two of more people at a table know what the other is holding in their hands and work together to cheat others out of their money. Collusion destroys the integrity of the whole industry not only at Absolute Poker. Anyone who attempts to collude while playing at Absolute Poker will not only be permanently banned from Absolute Poker but will also be entered into a black list data base.

Absolute Poker has state-of-the-art algorithms and software in place to immediately identify any fraudulent or unscrupulous activities. Aside from just the algorithms, activity on Absolute Poker watched for by a full time team of professionals, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The algorithms will track any collusion through Absolute Poker's sophisticated software as well as monitored 24 hours a day seven days a week by our team of professional analysts. There are a variety of strategies used by our analysts to uncover and identify collusion in conjunction with our set algorithms. Any complaints will be taken extremely seriously by Absolute Poker and investigated to there fullest.


Hackers

Absolute Poker is secure in the transfer of any information between its players and our Absolute servers. We utilize the internationally accepted industry standard SSLv3/TLSv1 encryption algorithm to protect your information as it transfers between our client application running on your computer and our servers. So whether it is credit card, your name, password, your cards, your personal address and any other private information is protected. Player cards are sent directly and exclusively to the individual player's computer without ever being susceptible of being hacked. Also no other computer playing at your table can see your face down cards. This security is the best available and prevents any hacking and ultimately collusion to take place.

Just wondering what the algorithm could be. Any suggestions?

 

[lots0]

I can't figure out why you're saying this isn't proof.

As Absolute Poker Management pointed out the data sample used is so small it could very well have been 'cherry picked' by some of the posters.

Now if Chip Dumping and some strange wins were not able to be easily explained away by other explanations, like strange unorthodox playing styles, brain farts at the table, posted hand histories that have been cherry picked, incorrect hand histories being posted or the Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised... I might even agree with you.

But there are way too many 'other' more plausible explanations for these hands and then Pokeraddict there is the fact that you personally have an axe to grind with Absolute Poker and therefore you immediately jump to the conclusion that AP Management is at fault, with absolutely no proof (pun intended) and no matter if AP Management is at fault or not.

This whole thing is real simple to resolve... If you and your friends don't trust Absolute Poker don't play there, even continue to tell people you don't trust them if you want, but don't go accusing people or business of real crimes with out some PROOF that they are guilty and what has been provided and called 'proof' by some would never be used as evidence in any court in the Western World.

You know I could be wrong about this whole thing, the AP management could have went insane, lost their minds entirely and decided to risk their hundreds of Millions of dollars a year in pure profits just so a hand full of player accounts could make a a few hundred thousand a year... But I don't think so.

@Pinababy69,
Are you are aware that the Poker Tracker site has been recently hacked and that makes ALL the Poker Tracker data suspect at best.

 

[GaryWatson]

CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot

Ok I'll try to work this hand out

CRAZYMARCO - Checks

POTRIPPER considers weakness

POTRIPPER - Bets $13500

CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310

POTRIPPER now has to think hard "do I call 200k to win a relatively low pot? I only need to catch a 10 or a 9 on the river card or this guy has just put 200k on the line for a laugh and I already have the highest hand?"

*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***

POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)

CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)

Conclusion - I put CRAZYMARCO on a mega bluff. I put POTTRIPPER on a rediculous call with everything beating him from pocket 2's +

any 1 of 3 remaining - 4's
any 1 of 3 remaining - 7's
any 1 of 14 remaining - J's to Aces

This is all for a pot that didnt need to go that deep

P.S. I dont claim to be a high stakes player but that looks exceptionally odd. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

 

[pokeraddict]

Now if Chip Dumping and some strange wins were not able to be easily explained away by other explanations

Chip dumping is forbidden in every poker room. It's an insta lock for an account. Essentially it means that players have committed fraud in one way or another and are trying to hide it. Here is an article I wrote about it a couple of years ago for a site I used to own.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised

I think this really shows your lack of poker and industry knowledge. This is likely why you don't understand. PT's site being hacked has nothing to do with its functionality. In fact, in the end it turned out nothing beyond web pages being messed with. Also all data is compiled by the user. In Absolute's case all hh's are stored on your hard drive. PT auto imports these hh's. They really can't be cherry picked.

As Absolute Poker Management pointed out the data sample used is so small it could very well have been 'cherry picked' by some of the posters.

Link? AFAIK AP management has not made any comment which is absolutely ridiculous. An affiliate manager made a post at PAW (the one quoted in this thread too) but nobody in AP's security or management has commented to this point. If I'm wrong here please link and quote it for us.

then Pokeraddict there is the fact that you personally have an axe to grind with Absolute Poker

You keep mentioning this, all I have done is post their behavior of the past year in one thread where somebody asked me why I thought AP was so shady. If you think spamming, shilling, retroactively changing bonus terms, changing affiliate terms on existing players, changing rakeback terms, lying about the %'s paid on/to US players, repeated changes to the BBJ after player money was already in the pool and now this mishandled disaster are qualities of a poker room you want to defend that's your right. All I have done is post the facts. There is no disputing AP has done all of the above things since the UIGEA. The fact that a poker room I've been warning people about for a year is involved in this just proves how right I have been about them.

You seem to have an axe to grind with me about exposing AP's many shady ways. On top of that your constant defending of them in this situation really makes me wonder what your agenda is. Maybe you just have no idea about poker and/or poker stats. My agenda is to make sure players are warned about staying away from shady poker rooms. That's it. I'm obviously not making any of this stuff up. I can and have proven everything I've accused them of beyond virtually anybody's doubt but yours.

 

[pokeraddict]

Gary, that's why it one of the endless hands posted. Not only could the T9 be drawing dead but even if it isn't there is virtually no way it could be a winner now. All in HU in a $1000 with a 6 outer that could be drawing dead? It's not even the worse hand. The fold for an $80 all in raise into a $10,000 pot is the worst closely followed by the folding after capping the flop when 522 flopped. Of course there are hundreds of others that rank right up there.

 

[ZFitz]

As Absolute Poker Management pointed out the data sample used is so small it could very well have been 'cherry picked' by some of the posters.

Now if Chip Dumping and some strange wins were not able to be easily explained away by other explanations, like strange unorthodox playing styles, brain farts at the table, posted hand histories that have been cherry picked, incorrect hand histories being posted or the Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised... I might even agree with you.

Man, you really dont have a clue to you? Do you even play poker? I've been a pro for the last 3 years and Ive used poker tracker for some of that time although Ive never liked it as much everyone else seems to. I would actually like if it had never been invented as the games used to be alot softer and I dont like using it anyway. But anyone who knows how it works and reads the stats is in agreement on this issue....There is nothing that can explain the results someone playing 90/70 vpip/pfr has attained. What has happened isn't easily explained away by what you mentioned above, how can you just say 'its an unorthodox playing style'...Calling an all in on the turn of a mtt with 2 people left with 10 high (and being correct) is beyond orthodox, what the hell does he put his opponent on? Added to this, never showing down a losing hand, actually never even calling the river at all, just raising or folding. Because the cheater can see the opponents cards he raises with a better hand every single time no matter how marginal, or if he has a worse hand he raises when he is certain the opponent cannot call based on the board texture. He folds when he knows he cant take his opponent off the hand. I shouldnt have to say it, but I will, it is not possible to read hands this well, it's not possible to read hands remotely close to this well. Basically the cheater is playing perfect poker, which is not possible.

Why would anyone bother cherry picking hand histories? Do you know the amount of work it would take to start sifting through hand history files and deleting actual individual hands that dont fit with the picture painted? To doctor enough of them that it significantly alters the graph and stats in pokertracker? In case you say 'well players have already sifted through them to post them', they haven't actually, you don't need to sift through them with PT and it would be much much much more time consuming to go doctor HHs than to do what the players have already done which is just to copy and paste directly out of PT.

Edit: Poker addict says cherry picking cant be done and he is correct in that the amount of time it would take is massive. Theorectically you could go in and alter the hands but my god that is a crazy amount of work.

Its a nusiance even having to go looking for your own hands in HH files, it would be pointless endevour for several posters to start doctoring someone else's histories, and what would be the point as the cheater could just produce there own ones and say 'well u've doctored them' and the poker site would be in agreement. There is no reason for long time respected posters to doctor hand histories as it would void their case against the cheater.

This whole thing is real simple to resolve... If you and your friends don't trust Absolute Poker don't play there, even continue to tell people you don't trust them if you want, but don't go accusing people or business of real crimes with out some PROOF that they are guilty and what has been provided and called 'proof' by some would never be used as evidence in any court in the Western World.

For god sake, it is proof. Hand histories are proof in poker, you can have your money seized, and lots of people have, based on hand histories that should evidence of cheating.

Say you had a case against someone who owed you money and you showed bank records which proved it. And then this person starts saying 'lets see some proof'...proof which you've just shown them lol. This is what you are doing here. The proof here is more than sufficient in any court, what level of probability of guiltiness is good enough for you? If based on evidence a court decides that a suspect is 99.999999% guilty are they supossed to find him innocent because of that .000001%? One of the 2+2 guys with a masters in statistics says "off the cuff estimate I would give would be something like 10^20:1" on the odds of the events that have unfolded happening.

You know I could be wrong about this whole thing, the AP management could have went insane and lost their minds and decided to risk their hundreds of Millions of dollars a year in profits just so a hand full of player accounts could make a a few hundred thousand a year... But I don't think so.

It is either an inside job or someone has hacked into the Absolute server, it's one or the other. Management may or may not be involved. I personally think it is someone/some group without a limited amount of poker knowledge as it was way too transparent and this was gonna show up sooner or later on peoples pokertracker, the mtt with the 10 high win just brought it to the community's attention sooner. If this had've been executed by a level headed pro (or any clued in poker player who knows their opponents are using PT) it would never have been detected as they would've know hown much they could win without raising suspicions.

As for the big business would never risk money like this...Well we all know how honest big business are these days, they'd never dream of screwing over their customers to make more money, just ask Enron.... If it was an endorsed Absolute scheme, which there is no evidence for (and which I have no reason as yet to believe it was, I'm just theorizing), the facility for seeing hole cards would be given to an in house team who basically be playing for Absolute and making them a couple of mil extra a year. On your statement that why would they risk millions so that "hand full of player accounts could make a a few hundred thousand a year" - obviously if the player accounts were given the facility by Absolute it would be Absolute employees themselves playing the accounts and the money would all be pocketed by Absolute...no one is suggesting that they would just hand over this ability to some random dudes as you seem to be say people have suggested. However I think if it was an inside job backed by management they wouldve not been nearly as obvious, so this makes me think if it was an inside job it was done by an employee(s) without the backing of the ste.

Are you are aware that the Poker Tracker site has been recently hacked and that makes the Poker Tracker data suspect at best.

That makes no difference to the data, someone hacking pokertracker's site is not going to be doing it to mess up your hand histories. One of the reasons they would hack the PT site is to install some kind of trojan that gets downloaded to your pc and can take a screenshot so they can see your cards. If somehow that is what has happened it still means there is cheating on Absolute. I dont this is the most likely explanation however as it is unlikely that every single opponent the cheater faced in that tourney was using PT yet he played the same against them all.

 

[lots0]

Quote:
Poker Tracker Site being hacked and the Poker Tracker data compromised
I think this really shows your lack of poker and industry knowledge. This is likely why you don't understand. PT's site being hacked has nothing to do with its functionality.

No I think it shows your lack of programming knowledge.

This has NOTHING to do with 'poker knowledge' it has to do with programming knowledge.

If a site is hacked, that means someone besides the owner (the hacker) has access to ALL the data and files on a site including the data bases and data transfers. That means that ALL data (including databases) housed on that site can be added, deleted or edited and it is virtually impossible to tell that what has been done. So the idea that "just some pages were messed up" is ridiculous in the extreme. FYI - I am a bit of an expert on this subject.

I think the lone fact that the Poker Tracker web site has been recently hacked (the hack happened at the same time these reports started showing up) is good reason not to believe any of the Poker Tracker data posted.

@ZFitz

Do you even play poker?

None of your business if I do or don't.

Man, you really dont have a clue to you?

As far as clues go, I got lots of them, maybe even some of yours...

The rest of your post is not worth responding too as you failed to provide any facts or evidence to support your statements.

 

[mg_]

Sorry for long first post . Just had to register and drop in to say some things to lots0.

But there are way too many 'other' more plausible explanations

No. No there are not. If you have looked over the Poker Tracker stats and do not believe they constitute proof, you either

1. do not understand what the numbers represent, or
2. you are not intelligent enough to appreciate their significance.

This has been pointed out to you before in this thread by other posters, but instead of responding to them or even acknowledging this at all, you just ignore them and continue to shout that "there is no proof".

The mountain of hand histories that show these accounts playing FTOP-perfect poker and continually and consistently making moves that are only explicable if they can see everyone else's cards are merely the icing on the cake.

These accounts and player(s) are cheating. This is indisputable fact.

@Pinababy69,
Are you are aware that the Poker Tracker site has been recently hacked and that makes ALL the Poker Tracker data suspect at best.

What the f*ck? No it doesn't. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The site was attacked and was taken down by PT Pat as a precaution. He has already pointed out, multiple times, that nothing malicious ever found its way onto the site, and even if it did, Poker Tracker does not automatically update, it just points out that you need to access the web page (you know, the one that had been taken down?) to download the newest patch. You're just making sh*t up now that is patently untrue to try and support your cause. I wonder why?

All of this aside, PT data has been contributed by a whole bunch of different people (iirc, at least ten) who played with these accounts, and all the data shows the same thing - accounts that play nearly every hand, have a near-infinite river aggression factor, mysteriously "know" to fold preflop only when someone else has JJ+, call allins whenever they have the best hand (no matter how bad their hand may be) but never if they do not, and have an unbelievably colossal winrate which has never been seen before (or even anything remotely close to it) in the history of online poker.

Unless all the people who have contributed this data have somehow been magically compromised by your hack-that-never-was - and for some bizarre reason all that this imaginary hack does is make it appear that some random guys on Absolute are the winningest players ever - then this data is legitimate.


From an earlier post of yours;

MY understanding (as an Affiliate of AP's)

What a surprise. The reason for your indefensible stance in the face of utterly blatant cheating suddenly becomes apparent.

and then Pokeraddict there is the fact that you personally have an axe to grind with Absolute Poker

Even if you believe Pokeraddict's integrity on this issue to be compromised - and let's not forget that yours also quite obviously is - what about the hundreds of people who are equally convinced (having, after all, viewed a mountain of proof) that these accounts are cheating? Numbering among these hundreds of people are some of the very best limit hold'em and no-limit hold'em players in the world. These are people who have run the full gamut of variance, many times, over many years and millions of hands, and know damn well that what has happened at AP cannot be rationally explained. These are people who are much better placed to assess Poker Tracker data and draw conclusions about cheating than you are. What does it say that they are all unified in their belief that there is simply no other possible explanation for all of this than holecard cheating?

Regardless, your take on this issue is so stalwartly blind to fact (due most likely to your affiliate status to Absolute) that I do not expect to change your mind. I'd just like to add my voice to the masses of other knowledgable poker players who are well aware that cheating, fraud and theft have taken place on a massive scale at Absolute, and to point out to other readers of this forum that you are either shilling or stupid (whether the one, the other or a combination of the two, I don't really care) and your ill-informed opinions on this matter should be summarily ignored.

 

[ZFitz]

No I think it shows your lack of programming knowledge.

This has NOTHING to do with 'poker knowledge' it has to do with programming knowledge.

If a site is hacked, that means someone besides the owner (the hacker) has access to ALL the data and files on a site including the data bases. That means that ALL data (including databases) housed on that site can be added, deleted or edited and it is virtually impossible to tell that what has been done. So the idea that "just some pages were messed up" is ridiculous in the extreme. FYI - I am a bit of an expert on this subject.

I think the lone fact that the Poker Tracker web site has been recently hacked (the hack happened at the same time these reports started showing up) is good reason not to believe any of the Poker Tracker data posted.

OK, you have to be trolling. I take as you didn't contest anything else, that you are now in agreement on the issue of cheating.

I have plenty of programming knowledge as well as poker knowledge and Poker Addict is completely correct that the site being hacked has nothing to do with the pokertracker softwares functionality. In case you don't know, pokertracker stores its data locally on your hard drive so hacking the site makes no difference to it. Nothing is being added, deleted or edited database-wise. Why the hell would someone want to hack into and alter hand history databases anyway, whats that going to achieve? As I've said already, the only thing of any use to a hacker concerning your poker playing is being able to see your hole cards, not pricking about with your database.

The rest of your post is not worth responding too as you failed to provide any facts or evidence to support your statements.

Nice reply. Not worth responding to lol....Show me one thing in my post that is incorrect, that's right you can't. My god you are dumb as f&*^. If you are trolling which looks likey, congratulations, you have succeeded in pissing me off as your ignorance is just too much for me. I too am beginning to wonder have you an agenda here. It's either that or you don't understand the stats or are trolling.

As I've said, what you are doing is the same as saying "ok whatever show me the proof" after the prosecution had just shown the murder weapon with the accused's fingerprints all over it and a cctv camera with him committing the act. YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN THE FUCKING PROOF IDIOT! The whole poker community is on agreement on it. Ok, I'm done.

 

[lots0]

Just gotta love these drive by slammers...

you are not intelligent enough to appreciate their significance.

Start with the personal flames and then move on to what can best be called "fuzzy logic" and you question my intelligence... Now that is funny.

Call me a troller... Hmmm and just who is the new guy here... Who shows up and starts calling names.

And no not the whole Poker Community is in agreement on this issue.

Did any of you new posters happen to read the TOS here at CasinoMeister before you posted? Name calling and personal attacks are not allowed here. How about trying to hold an adult discussion of the issues without the childish personal attacks?

 

[Adanthar]

Hi,

I'd normally just ignore this, but this particular forum/site is important enough that all misconceptions need to be dispelled ASAP.

I think the lone fact that the Poker Tracker web site has been recently hacked (the hack happened at the same time these reports started showing up) is good reason not to believe any of the Poker Tracker data posted.

The hack *did not* happen at the same time. I have a hand history of a hole card cam user winning the Absolute 1K on 8/23. The PT hack did not happen until about a week ago, and when it did, no files were altered, especially not on my system, which currently contains about 1K hands from various people. All of these hands are not even PT compatible, so in order to prove cheating, I have to look at them manually, but they are there and will be emailed to anyone on request.

In fact, we have a staggering amount of proof completely unrelated to PT. In addition to all of the NL hands and limit hands whose *summaries* are in PT, we have Payup's (the 8/23 winner) final table HH from two different sources at the FT with him, including the second place finisher; we also have some of Potripper's (the 9/13 winner) HH from two sources and a lot more of it from one. Again, the formatting on these files is messed up and they have never been imported into PT, but I received them from the affected players, who in turn got them directly from AP support.

From 8 handed to 3 handed, when the person providing my HH was knocked out, the 9/13 final table took 28 hands to play through. I have manually reviewed each of these hands and, again, will email anyone who asks copies of the history. Potripper played 21 out of the final 26 of these hands (that is, raising or calling PF), never showed down a losing hand and displayed a fascinating 100% consistency in checking down or folding if someone had top pair or better, while betting every flop they missed. In at least four out of the remaining five hands, someone at the table had JJ or higher in the hole, and in two of those cases, Potripper made his only two open folds (folding before anyone acted) of the entire hand history; in the other two, he made his only two folds to a single raise. Of course, the whole thing ends with the call with T high no draw on the turn.

Again, we have a *staggering* amount of proof that is not at all related to Poker Tracker - it's hard to read, but it's all there, and the hand history numbers are requestable from AP support (better hurry up if you want to see the 8/23 ones, though - they only keep them for a month.) I don't know if you have any kind of agenda since there's already been one AP shill trying to discredit me in this thread, but if you do not, by all means email them or myself and ask for HH copies; they will be provided.

 

[mg_]

what can best be called "fuzzy logic"

Everything I posted is fact. It does not surprise me that you are trying as hard as you can not to acknowledge it, because you have no answer to any of it.

Call me a troller...

I didn't call you a troller.

Hmmm and just who is the new guy here...

I don't see why that should matter.

Who shows up and starts calling names.

I didn't call you any names.


Your desperation to avoid actually addressing any of the points I made is comical.

And no not the whole Poker Community is in agreement on this issue.

Other than you, and a small handful of others who are likely affiliates too, yes, they really are.

 

[lots0]

mg_ my last post was not about you.

I know its hard to believe, but I really don't think your post is/was worth answering.

 

[mg_]

mg_ my last post was not about you.

I know its hard to believe, but I really don't think your post is/was worth answering.

....

Your desperation to avoid actually addressing any of the points I made is comical.

 

[lots0]

Adanthar said:

In fact, we have a staggering amount of proof completely unrelated to PT.

Then lets see it.


We are talking Proof right? Some fact that can not be explained in any other way than Absolute Poker is cheating?

Well lets all take a look see at your proof....

And just who is this "we" you speak of?

 

[Adanthar]

We are talking Proof right? Some fact that can not be explained in any other way than Absolute Poker is cheating?

Well lets all take a look see at your proof....

My email is adanthar@gmail.com. I've posted everything I have on 2+2, all of which is linked from the first few pages (most from the first post) of the BBV thread, but as I said, if you would like independent corroboration, email me and I'll send you the raw histories.

 

[ZFitz]

MY understanding (as an Affiliate of AP's)

Just seen this. Well that's me done with wasting my time replying to someone with an obvious agenda. To the other's arguing with him, he's already been given the proof so maybe just leave it at that and stop replying to him making it look as if there is actually is some debate on the issue when in fact everyone (other than lots0) himself is in agreement.

 

[Casinomeister]

...YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN THE FUCKING PROOF IDIOT! The whole poker community is on agreement on it. Ok, I'm done.

Do NOT turn this thread into a slam/flame fest. There is some very important information being discussed here and it is not a place for rants. As mentioned, read the forum rules please.

...Any word from them Bryan?

So far - no response, which I find alarming.

...I had seen a post at 2+2 that implied that Watchdog's IP had been linked to an employee of Absolute, but couldn't find it when I went back to look.

Bryan, is there any way that you can do a check on Watchdog's IP

He's in CR like a number of other forum members. Nothing here indicates that he is associated with AP.

I'll begin to look into this. I have a lot on my plate at the moment, but this issue seems serious enough to warn the gaming community on what's going on. Something isn't quite right here. If Absolute Poker is not willing to provide the gaming community with a thorough explanation about what is happening, then what are players supposed to do??

 

[Adanthar]

Incidentally,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

SEO & ethics: you have been one of the biggest debunkers of this marketing angle for me. Based on a few comments it seems you have a distaste for the SEO ethics crowd. Why do you have such a distaste for many people proclaiming to be "ethical" SEOs?

I was there when the first 'ethical' SEO poked his cowboy hat clad head out from under a rock.

I guess my distaste for the SEO 'ethics' crowd began because I knew the people involved before they became 'ethical' and I was part of original discussions(if you can call them that) about SEO 'ethics'.

I watched as a few SEOs who's business was not doing so well at the time spring to the SEO forefront as they proclaimed they were 'ethical' and all the other SEOs (that did not go along) were evil spammers. Once these self-named 'ethical' SEOs figured out they could get clients and a following of ditto heads by claiming they were 'ethical' they were off and running.

Fortunately, I think the 'ethical' SEO fad has about ran it course, it is fading fast as a marketing method.

Clients don't really care about being 'ethical' as defined by a big corporation like google(or some cowboy hat wearing SEO wannabe), clients care much more about conversions and issues directly related to their business.

 

[lots0]

Adanthar thanks for posting that, I am rather proud of what I said in that interview with Aaron Wall.

but you are derailing this thread. Instead of trying (lamley) to attack me why not just provide some proof of what you say.

What you have posted on 2+2 is not proof, no matter how many times you call it that.

@CM, I also find the fact that AP has not formally responded to these accusations appears rather damming. But if the investigation is through it is going to take more than just a few days to sort through it all.

And just for you new posters here... I have NEVER hid the fact that I am an affiliate of some of the programs. If you want to keep beating a dead horse, please keep bringing it up, it is good for my business.