Major Absolute Poker Issue

[lnspin]

My thoughts on this ,

the chip dumping is 100% true , i have watched it myself and it is the only explination .

As for seeing the hole cards , i do not beleive ap has been hacked and that the cheaters can see everyones hole cards , i think a few of the cheaters , somehow got a trojan on some high limit players computers , and are able to see there hole cards , and are effectively cleaning them out .

That letter from Danielle was shocking , as she stated that n instances of chip dumping were found . Well where are you looking , when a player bets 9999 and gets raised to 10,000 and folds instead of calling a $1 , there is no explination for that , and it has happened mutiple times .

 

[Adanthar]

As for seeing the hole cards , i do not beleive ap has been hacked and that the cheaters can see everyones hole cards , i think a few of the cheaters , somehow got a trojan on some high limit players computers , and are able to see there hole cards , and are effectively cleaning them out .

For a variety of reasons already stated on 2+2, that cannot be the case. The most important one of these is that the cheating also took place in tournaments, where trojans planted on only certain players would not be nearly as effective. A 'raise 21/fold exactly the 5 times that random people have big pairs' record cannot be explained by a virus on only 'some' computers.

 

[chuchu59]

Ya asking for proof, is a bad way to solve a problem like this, lets stick with innuendo and false accusations.


First is there no other possible explanation of this players actions, like maybe he/she was just stupid, drunk or drugged up or maybe this person got so freaked out by being accused of cheating that they went on tilt to the max.

Next, So your sure no one at AP was investigating? They just ignored everything huh... wells thats crappy of them, but your really sure they did nothing, absolutely nothing...

Maybe the folks at AP wanted to know what was going on before they took any action or maybe they looked at it and saw nothing or maybe they looked and saw something but ignored it... But they took action of some kind...

You don't have any idea of what Absolute Poker did or did not do, but your willing to damn them one way or the other aren't you...

Wheres the PROOF?

Lotso,

If there needs to be proof that conforms to your level, nobody would be convicted of any crimes. I have always believed that anyone is innocent unless proven guilty but your standards really do take the cake. Assuming stupidity, drunkenness or just freaked out is carrying proof to extremes especially when these occurences have been numerous and sustained over a steady period of time. I am no poker expert but from what i have read from the 2+2 forum and the posts from pokeraddict and BBPoker it is obvious that something is amiss and that chip dumping actually occured at least. Of course, unless the guy actually admits it, you can always argue that this is not the case but surely the evidence is damning even to a novice like me.

 

[Zoozie]

Everyone that does not believe foul play is the case here, please write how long you have played poker with your PT BB/100 and limit, total number of hands

If you do this and still want to troll, then come up with some serious arguments how it is possible to archive those stats. Run some statistics and find the odds for a maniac going on such a lucky streak besides making the correct river decision 179 times in a row. Also factor in they sometimes lost small pots on purpose to disguise the cheat. (though I would have done a lot more of that!) Or is it a hoax setup somehow with false PT data?

I do not find a Trojan likely at all since it was happening to many players in cash-games not to mention the MMT's.

The only resolution is that AP hire a third party and give them full access to the AP hand database. The accusations are serious enough for AP to go this far.

 

[pokeraddict]

The story broke one week ago today and to this point so I figure it is a good time for a summary:

1. A massive amount of evidence has been compiled against the cheats. Mods at 2+2 have compiled a database in Poker Tracker, a popular software which tracks your results as well as the other players you play against and in the case of many sites games you observe. These stats prove to virtually everybody in the online poker community that the accused players were cheating by being able to see the hole cards of the other players.

2. AP reacted very slowly in locking the cheat accounts, even allowing one to chip dump several days after this broke.

3. AP has still not made a public comment. An affiliate manager at Chipleader has but claimed they had not found any odd play as of yet. Considering just the number of chip dump hands posted this seems impossible. IMO it is safe to say that this statement was not made by management, especially since it was signed by the Chipleader.com employee. To this point nobody has disputed that and the response has been widely ignored since the most obvious chip dumping was not acknowledged.

4. AP has asked a poker affiliate forum to not allow discussion of this and the thread was removed from their forum by the owner (shame on them).

5. Support sends out form emails to players asking questions about this situation. Even players that lost tens of thousands to the cheats cannot get any info out of AP.

6. AP's security department has told a player that were taken "We are unable to find any hands involving you and x player". AP had to be emailed hand #'s/histories from the player which hardly gives confidence in the investigation or the anti collusion/cheating procedures.

7. AP ignored initial emails from players tipping them off to the cheating and first chip dumping. Their lack of response leads to this exposure.

8. The amount stolen by the cheats range from $400,000-$600,000.

9. The community seems split on whether AP is involved in the cheating ring. Some feel the site was hacked, others feel an AP insider is in on it while others feel AP management has known about this all along.

10. The consensus has become that the cheating started on the day of the last major upgrade about a month ago.

Other interesting things that have come out of this that don't help AP's cause.

1. The razz game awards a pot to the wrong person. After repeated emails AP still claims the pot was awarded to the correct person when obviously it was not. The email exchange was humorous as multiple people at AP (and obviously the software developer) are unable to grasp the rules of the game.

2. Mark Seif had been accused of this same thing in the past (with no real evidence). Mark Seif comes out denying any involvement and publicly asks AP to investigate and resolve this situation. Most in the community do not feel Mark Seif is involved. In fact, Mark claims in his statement that he is likely the biggest loser in AP history. Many players agree with his admission of losses.

3. Several former props have come out claiming AP did this same type of cheating to them about 2 years ago. I once propped for them but it seems the time frame AP has been accused of this was after I left the program. I worked for AP for about 2 years as a prop and left on great terms. In fact I'm probably still listed officially as a prop. IMO AP did not start the downward spiral until the UIGEA passed which was long after my last hand. AFAIK the props making this accusation have never brought up any proof, at least not up to the magnitude of the current accusations.

I'm sure I've missed some good points but this is a good halftime summary. It's time for Absolute Poker to step up to the plate and enlighten us as to what they have found. Obviously they are in an awful situation. Either they have been caught cheating or they have allowed a backdoor that allowed cheating to take place on their site, even after being presented with the proof it was going on.

 

[satchmo]

Ohh comercial break, now let's go and the popcorn stand.

Whoa alot of reading in all the forums.

Well as far as proof, i would say somethig dosent add up.
Well im backing up again waiting for some more reading on this thing.


Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero.

 

[The Dude]

AP responds

I received an email response from AP overnight. I don't think they'll mind me posting it here:

We have done an extensive research into the claims that have been brought to our attention. While we are continuing to do a thorough and exhaustive investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing.

When you are logged in and playing your game client only receives data regarding your hole cards. As a result, it is impossible for a player to have information regarding any other player's hole cards. There are no "superuser" accounts that enable players to see other players' hole cards.

Despite our confidence in the security of our systems, we researched hands involving accounts that were mentioned in the online forum posts over the weekend and did not find any incidence of cheating by the accounts in question. Results mentioned in the forums were over a small sample of hands, and we have researched these hands as well as numerous other hands involving these players and have found that the pattern of play of the players did not lend credibility to the claim that the players knew the cards of other players at the table. Certainly there were hands that were played poorly, from a poker strategy perspective, and where these players received a fortunate result. However, a longer term review has shown that similar playing strategies have not resulted in the same results as these players achieved in the small sample of hands mentioned in the online discussion.

Furthermore, the play of the players in question did not substantiate claims that they were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

We take these matters very seriously, and stand by the results of our random number generator and game client security. Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.

 

[chuchu59]

AP's response? It's too generalised and hardly convincing. We have discussed in detail several instances of chip dumping in this thread and since its all in the open already AP should explain to us why they think they are not regarded as such. I, for one, wouldnt mind to treat these as case studies with details scrutinised as closely as possible.

 

[I Like Pie]

lol @

Furthermore, the play of the players in question did not substantiate claims that they were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

The other night after this story came out, DOUBLEDRAG sat down and spewed thousands of dollars. He obviously knew that he got caught cheating and thought this was a good way to cover it up. I saw on hand where he called an all-in on the turn with K high and no draws, and another was with 4 high I believe. All the hand histories from that session are in one of the 2+2 threads.
AP is a joke.

 

[lots0]

He obviously knew that he got caught cheating and thought this was a good way to cover it up.

So besides being a super user card cheat he/she is an idiot as well...
Ya that makes a lot of sense...

You don't like AP.... Don't play there.

A massive amount of evidence has been compiled against the cheats.

Have you asked a qualified independent investigator to look at your evidence? I know you all believed AP was guilty before you even began to gather any evidence, so it would only fair to ask an independent 3rd party to take a look before passing judgment (oops too late for that, you've already made yourselves judge and jury and now your trying hard to be the executioner... ) Mob justice is always so.... fair and open minded...(sarcasm)

 

[GaryWatson]

So besides being a super user card cheat he/she is an idiot as well...
Ya that makes a lot of sense...

You don't like AP.... Don't play there.

Have you asked a qualified independent investigator to look at your evidence? I know you all believed AP was guilty before you even began to gather any evidence, so it would only fair to ask an independent 3rd party to take a look before passing judgment (oops too late for that, you've already made yourselves judge and jury and now your trying hard to be the executioner... ) Mob justice is always so.... fair and open minded...(sarcasm)

It would be difficult to find anyone independant. It a bad thing all round for online poker. The whole industry could be affected by this. High stakes players who are calling out AP could lose a lot of their income over this.

I would call many of the pro players qualified enough to determine irregular hands.

Most people are used to hearing rigged stories. Very few believe it. The complainee usually gets laughed off the forum but this time there seems to be a very strong case.

 

[I Like Pie]

So besides being a super user card cheat he/she is an idiot as well...
Ya that makes a lot of sense...

Cause we all know that all criminals are smart

 

[SeattleSinner]

That response from AP shows one of two things:

1. They obviously have no idea what is going on. (And I wouldn't put it past their staff that this is the case)

2. They are involved in this scam which is why they havent "uncovered" anything.

 

[pokeraddict]

That response from AP shows one of two things:

1. They obviously have no idea what is going on. (And I wouldn't put it past their staff that this is the case)

2. They are involved in this scam which is why they havent "uncovered" anything.

Exactly. Anybody that has a clue at the very least sees the blatant HU chip dumping. It's not in AP's best interest to do anything here even if they are not involved.

Funny how calling the worst possible hand on the river for $1700 isn't odd. Also it's is not odd to call all in with T9 with no draws on the turn and just happen to run into the few hands you can beat without improving. What a joke.

What AP can do to convince us is show us hh's from endless times this player called ten high all in on the turn w/o any draws and lost and other situations where the players made smiliar plays but were not ahead.

 

[pokeraddict]

This is on page 65 of the monster part 3 thread at 2+2. This is well beyond my math skills but it seems like everyone agrees his math is correct. Thanks to Wolfskin for this. 1 in 20 trillion I guess this means? Nice to know AP thinks this is nothing to be alarmed about.

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I did some statistical research on what's possible in 100 hand spans and 500 hands spans and what's not. The statistical analysis I use are based on the normal curve of distribution. The data used is of one of the best and most respected players on pokerstars in the 25/50 NL game against tough competition with a sample size of 13400 heads-up hands winning approximately 3.8 bb/100 using overbet-shove techniques.

100 hand intervalls:
Mean: 3.49bb/100
Standard Deviation: 65.08bb/100



Results:
for 100 hand spans using 13400 hands the confidence interval (usually you use 95%, that means in 97.5% you will be below this win rate over 100 hands) is:
90%: 103.65bb/100
95%: 124.07bb/100
99%: 164.15bb/100
99.999%: 283.99bb/100
99.99999999999%: 480.77bb/100
or 1:20000000000000 or 1:2E13

500 hand intervalls:
Mean: 1.9bb/100 (different because I only use 13000 hands)
Standard Deviation: 29.32bb/100

confidence intervall for 500 hand spans using a 13000 hand sample:
90%: 46.32bb/100
95%: 55.56bb/100
99%: 73.62bb/100
99.9999999999999999999999: 299.09bb/100
or 1:2E24

 

[Pinababy69]

Just for you Pinababy69... Yes I do play poker, but only for small stakes. Try as I might, I'm not very good, but I still like playing.

I currently have one of my guys going over the PT software, I don't know yet if the software 'phones home' regularly or not till I hear back from him on what he found.

Thanks lots0. You are the same type of player as me then. I have my moments, but overall I'm not that good either, lol.

I'd be interested to hear what conclusion you come to about the PT software. My statement was certainly not based on any technical knowledge, only on my impression of how it seemed to work when I d/l'd and installed it.

I am no poker expert but from what i have read from the 2+2 forum and the posts from pokeraddict and BBPoker it is obvious that something is amiss and that chip dumping actually occured at least. Of course, unless the guy actually admits it, you can always argue that this is not the case but surely the evidence is damning even to a novice like me.

Totally agreed Chuchu. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Run some statistics and find the odds for a maniac going on such a lucky streak besides making the correct river decision 179 times in a row.

Exactly Zoozie!! To put it in the simplest terms, what are the odds of flipping a coin and it coming up heads 179 times in a row? Maybe not the best analogy as with poker, there is an element of skill and reading your opponents...but NO ONE can make the correct call 179 times in a row. Not possible.

4. AP has asked a poker affiliate forum to not allow discussion of this and the thread was removed from their forum by the owner (shame on them).

Shame on them indeed Pokeraddict. Which forum was this, if you don't mind me asking?

I received an email response from AP overnight. I don't think they'll mind me posting it here:

That response certainly leaves alot to be desired. I'd have to go back and check, but it seems similar to the standard "form" type email they sent out to some of the players who had emailed inquiring as to what was going on.

Furthermore, the play of the players in question did not substantiate claims that they were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Ha ha...okay Absolute Poker. No chip dumping? Who the hell is checking the hand histories.....the three blind mice?

That response from AP shows one of two things:

1. They obviously have no idea what is going on. (And I wouldn't put it past their staff that this is the case)

2. They are involved in this scam which is why they havent "uncovered" anything.

Agreed SeattleSinner. And my vote would probably be for number one....total incompetence.

 

[pokeraddict]

Originally Posted by pokeraddict
4. AP has asked a poker affiliate forum to not allow discussion of this and the thread was removed from their forum by the owner (shame on them).

Shame on them indeed Pokeraddict. Which forum was this, if you don't mind me asking?

Pokeraffiliateworld.com

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I removed the thread on request of AP upper management. They will be giving the affiliates an official statement via PAW.

AFAIK AP never gave them a statement beyond the one issued by Chipleader. In his blog he doesn't mention anybody in AP's upper managemnt though but does mention Chipleader saying the thread was "slanderous".

That's right, instead of allowing a free discussion for affiliates to give input on where to go from there (like not promoting AP/UB, getting together to push AP into a 3rd party review, pushing AP into a response etc.) Jeremy deletes the entire thread at the request of Absolute Poker. He then even went into his blog and calls out the rest of the community for doubting AP. Although he has promoted poker for many years he does not seem to have any concept of the game or how to read Poker Tracker stats. I guess the other thought is his relationship with AP/UB has gotten in the way with the fact multiple players are running on a 20 trillion to 1 shot streak with about the worst possible preflop stats one can have. If a normal players W$atSD is 50% (its slightly higher) then winning 179 coin tosses in a row is a good comparison. It's probably closer to winning 160 coin tosses in a row. It's still not possible.

 

[pokeraddict]

This is not completely related but it goes against AP's credibility for sure. Pokertips.org has just caught AP scraping content off their site and calling it their own. Pokertips state this was written in 2003. If you go to the Internet Archives you will see it was on Pokertips site on or before October 5th 2003, on AP's site it was not recorded until November 2005.

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Outdated URL (Invalid)

The announcement can be found here:

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Just add this to the mountain of dishonest things they have done in the past. Site scraping really hits home with me after having my content ripped off time and time again when I owned a rakeback directory.

IMO if AP does not get their act together shortly it will be time to call for player and affiliate boycotts. Players are already contacting AP's advertising venues with what is going on. AP just gets deeper and deeper.

 

[Pinababy69]

Pokeraffiliateworld.com

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That's right, instead of allowing a free discussion for affiliates to give input on where to go from there (like not promoting AP/UB, getting together to push AP into a 3rd party review, pushing AP into a response etc.) Jeremy deletes the entire thread at the request of Absolute Poker. He then even went into his blog and calls out the rest of the community for doubting AP. Although he has promoted poker for many years he does not seem to have any concept of the game or how to read Poker Tracker stats. I guess the other thought is his relationship with AP/UB has gotten in the way with the fact multiple players are running on a 20 trillion to 1 shot streak with about the worst possible preflop stats one can have. If a normal players W$atSD is 50% (its slightly higher) then winning 179 coin tosses in a row is a good comparison. It's probably closer to winning 160 coin tosses in a row. It's still not possible.

Thanks for the link pokeraddict. And for the correction on the analogy. I definitely should have worded it as you did...not how many times it would come up heads, but how many in a row can you win? As you said, whether it's a 160 or 179...it's just not within the realm of possibility. I could sit here right now and flip a coin, and I'd be shocked if I could call it correctly five times in a row, nevermind over 100 times, lol.

On the subject of analogies (but not to derail), I've read some of the ones being posted over at 2+2 and they're quite good. They can also be useful in trying to stress the point of how improbable the stats are, to someone who maybe doesn't understand poker all that well. The best one I've read so far is this (not verbatim folks) - go to a major league baseball game and go up into the stands. Find the most out-of-shape, non-athletic looking guy that you can and invite him to step up to the plate. To make it more interesting, let's say Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez on their best day. The guy proceeds to hit 28 home runs IN A ROW. Out of the park, gone, cleared the fences. It will never happen. This is very similar to what has happened here...poker players who had never even played in the "majors" before stepped up and hit home run after home run....against seasoned veteran pitchers. Thanks to the poster who came up with that one..it's great.

If I get a chance after dinner, I'm gonna check out this Jeremy's site. It will be interesting I'm sure.

 

[GaryWatson]

Question?

Why does the only AP member "Danielle" (chipleader affiliate manager) answer for them?

Answer

Chipleader was introduced to reduce standard affiliate payments. If caught, they can be replaced.

Chipleader still respond to GPWA and assume accreditation.

No response to fact by chipleader staff has ever been worth reading. Quite litterally they have been scamming all but a select few.

Here's the kicker, if chipleader goes down. The affiliates will lose out and AP will gain. The company just changes names. Same people only they change ownership. Straight out of the blackhat bankrupt scam association.

This was all before this fiasco.

They should be decredited & dumped in the rouges section. They have done worse than any there.

Chipleader is supposed to be a third party but its not. It happens in dodgy small businesses, Once in trouble you change ownership and everything is fine.

 

[kakata]

nice to have you back Pina

 

[pokeraddict]

No response to fact by chipleader staff has ever been worth reading. Quite litterally they have been scamming all but a select few.

Correct they are in house marketers for AP/UB. Since they took over they have changed the formula for MGR from contributed to dealt, even on existing players. They have also taken a 5% "service charge" on all US players to cover deposit fees, regardless of whether your player deposits or not, even on players signed up before the change. There have been endless accusations by affiliates of getting shorted by them and one very large affiliate (Pokerlistings) stopped promoting AP/UB because they feel they have been cheated.

 

[lots0]

The rumors, innuendo and down right lies just never stops does it?

Pokeraddict you keep saying over and over that AP needs to "prove to you" and "convince you"....

So just who the hell DO YOU THINK YOU ARE and who made you the poker god that everyone needs to please?

You don't even play at Absolute Poker, so just what is your concern with this? Are you getting paid by Bodog to trash their competition?

All I see in this thread are a bunch of unproven accusations and down right lies about Absolute Poker.

The math guy (a grad student) I had look at your so called proof was laughing at the idea that anyone could come to ANY definite conclusion given the data samples offered.

So how hard is it to get a Math major with a minor in Statistics that never player poker (you know someone independent) to go over your "data"?

Your data is crap and so are your accusations.

Bryan how much longer are you going to allow these false accusations, with no proof to back them up to be spewed here?

 

[I Like Pie]

 

[BBC Z]

Pokeraddict you keep saying over and over that AP needs to "prove to you" and "convince you"....

Pokeraddict is speaking for every single person that plays on-line poker. We all want to know what is going on, and the information coming from Absolute poker itself is insufficient (at best).

 

[pokeraddict]

Pokeraddict is speaking for every single person that plays on-line poker. We all want to know what is going on, and the information coming from Absolute poker itself is insufficient (at best).

Exactly. I'm not sure what you're quoting of mine but I speak with the same sentiment that virtually everybody that has read the evidence feels. I am a very interested industry observer. Why wouldn't I be? This is my livelihood.

Are you getting paid by Bodog to trash their competition?

This is just ridiculous. For the record I've never been an affiliate before for any poker room, casino or sportsbook, not now not ever. I have not even worked in the industry for almost a year. I believe earlier though you admitted you were an Absolute affiliate. Am I wrong about that? It would make total sense and if I'm wrong I apologize. Your post in other threads certainly leads me to believe something is up. In the thread below this you lash out on somebody that posted a complaint about AP even after they came back and posted everything was resolved. WHY?????

The rumors, innuendo and down right lies just never stops does it?

Yes, but maybe eventually AP will come clean though.

Lot0, I'm sorry you disagree with all the proof you have been shown. I'm sure if you understood poker and PT you would been enlightened, you choose to have your opinion and you are very entitled to it. If you feel it is made up then I've told you how to go about getting hh's and analyzing them yourself. You have not done so and yet you still sit here and insult those of us pressuring AP to do the right thing and getting the word out. Insulting me like I have some agenda is not going to change anything.

What is so funny is that you are insulting somebody that has been a neutral player advocate (Go research all the things I did when I owned Rakerebatereview.com) like I am some shill. I've protected endless players from getting screwed and to this day I am still just as neutral continuing on the RRR tradition in its absence modding the rakeback forum at 2+2. The only agenda I have is the truth from a site that will not even acknowledge the chip dumping you don't seem to think was any big deal. The only difference in wanting rakeback affiliates to be honest and poker rooms to be honest is that the poker room has a much higher standard to uphold, one that AP is nowhere near doing.

Keep on posting and sharing your opinion but please do not insult me with your ridiculous accusations. I'm about as big of a poker player advocate as there is. In fact I've been warning players about AP for about 9 months as they have gone down a very dishonest road in 2007. If AP is not pressured by the online poker community to do the right then they will not. I don't believe they will ever do anything about it anyway. It's certainly in their best interest to do nothing.

 

[satchmo]

I dont agree with any side, but what has been presented so far, is only mathematical proven facts of impossibilities in the random factor, and chip dumping.

Under the past day's i have read much about this, and the community think something fishy is going on. Likewise if this was a real criminal case, all the evidence would be presented from both sides, all would be analyzed by professional people.

I know there are alot of people with real high knowledge that has looked into this case so far, and if they think something is not correct about the whole deal. Then the community listen and agrees couse the only real evidence so far in this case, is presented by the community itself, and not by 1 or 2 person's.

I still would like to see he counterpart in this case come wit ha solid fact that proves otherwise. It is very important that they do that, so the community can decide if there is anything wrong in the case.
And why do you think that, well it is for a fact that all the online casino and poker sites are companys, they make money, on those who places wagers there.
As we have seen both here at the Meister and other forums, people listen and avoids the places that have proven facts that something fishy is going on with them. Just like ordinary companies all false accusations can be devestating to the survival of the company, we have seen this happen before. We have also strong customer support (affiliates and so on) that will deny that the company have done anything wrong.

So far in this case i have seen 3 parts, the company that is doing nothing directly to prove that nothing is going on. The Knowledge people hat provides facts and evidence so far. And the people that will rack the facts.

I have been getting all the infor from the community that sayes something fishy is going on. The evidence i can check both mathematical and by other ways to comfirm facts.

What i would like to is to see the counterparts come up with some real evidence that can be tested in the same way. Not only speaking but give me real facts that can be proven mathematical and so on.

O.J case anyone??????

Satchmo the man the myth the working class hero

 

[The Dude]

The rumors, innuendo and down right lies just never stops does it?

Pokeraddict you keep saying over and over that AP needs to "prove to you" and "convince you"....

So just who the hell DO YOU THINK YOU ARE and who made you the poker god that everyone needs to please?

You don't even play at Absolute Poker, so just what is your concern with this? Are you getting paid by Bodog to trash their competition?

All I see in this thread are a bunch of unproven accusations and down right lies about Absolute Poker.

The math guy (a grad student) I had look at your so called proof was laughing at the idea that anyone could come to ANY definite conclusion given the data samples offered.

So how hard is it to get a Math major with a minor in Statistics that never player poker (you know someone independent) to go over your "data"?

Your data is crap and so are your accusations.

Bryan how much longer are you going to allow these false accusations, with no proof to back them up to be spewed here?

I wouldn't say that anyone is lying here - as far as we know. The players are presenting as much material as possible for public scrutiny - and the poker room has indicated that they are investigating this. Why get so emotional about the whole thing? That's really not necessary.

BTW, I have faith in Poker Addicts judgement calls. I've been in contact with him over the past few years and have even met the guy in person. I wouldn't classify him as a raving loon.

I also know three "professional" mathematicians (two are members of this board) who would probably be more than happy to go over whatever data needs to be gone through.

I'll let this thread go on as long as it takes to come up with some definite answers - just so long as it doesn't spiral into a slamfest. @ everyone in general - please be cool.

 

[I Like Pie]

Are the accounts of these 5 players still locked/frozen? Because they seem to have concluded that they have done nothing wrong so there would be no reason to keep their accounts locked up. Or are they locking accounts of innocent players now?

 

[pokeraddict]

Are the accounts of these 5 players still locked/frozen? Because they seem to have concluded that they have done nothing wrong so there would be no reason to keep their accounts locked up. Or are they locking accounts of innocent players now?

I was wondering this too. Obviously as virtually everybody knew AP would try to sweep this under the capret, even failing to acknowledge obvious chip dumping. Now they have told a victim they are no longer investigating it and there was nothing wrong. So what is the deal?

The cheating accounts obviously knew the issue was out in the open. If they were innocent wouldn't they be posting hh's that AP should have been posting to clear themselves if this was really all bs? Wouldn't they have been complaining about getting their accounts locked? about being accused? Obviously they knew what was up.

Now where are these accounts? I'm sure if new player names appear it would immediately arouse suspicion. Did AP unlock these accounts and change their names? Did they tell them not to play? Did these silent players with hundreds of thousands of dollars locked up decide on their own to leave?

Now that AP has decided to ignore this it is becoming hard to believe they had no involvement at all. As mentioned in another thread today Full Tilt made refunds to players that had funds stolen, Poker Stars does this all the time. Why would AP not do it and go on to say there was not even chip dumping?

BTW a domain has been bought by a 2+2 poster with the intent of posting all of this evidence with the hopes it can catch more mainstream and search engine attention. AP needs to know this isn't going away.

 

[pokeraddict]

More food for thought, I also posted this at 2+2 (with typo fixed):

Here is a piece of the puzzle I don't get.

Obviously the cheats know they got caught, either by 2+2, AP or both. Even if AP was not in on it if the funds were confiscated then they are in on it now. One of the following happened:

1. AP let them keep all the money and unlocked their account. This is doubtful since nobody has seen any of the accounts play all week.

2. AP seized all the funds but lied to us about it, keeping a nice chunk of change. Basically this makes them in on it.

3. AP makes some sort of deal with the cheat(s) to keep them quiet.

4. An AP insider was in on it and AP helped to cover it up.

5. AP was the cheat all along.

If AP really did not find anything then why have these accounts not been seen?

After I posted this another poster makes a great point saying that if these accounts have really been found not guilty wouldn't they have immediately come back to the tables since they have proven they can win hundreds of thousands of dollars a week? Obviously AP's response doesn't add up.

 

[pokerfun0000000]

LOTS0:

You are either mentally retarded or a shill for AP.

Period end of story.

Honestly, could someone be this stupid?

 

[chuchu59]

LOTS0:

You are either mentally retarded or a shill for AP.

Period end of story.

Honestly, could someone be this stupid?

I dont think we should say that he is a shill without ample proof and I am sure he isnt a retard either. Obviously though, his views, especially on Pokeraddict, are a bit over the top and he should stop being so thick-skulled.

 

[SlotsWizard]

Lots0 is a no-BS, opinionated kind of guy. We aren't all going to agree on everything. I happen to feel that AP is up to no good here, and just because Lots0 disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm going to bash him.

Now can we move on and try to keep this thread about Absolute...

 

[WholeBean]

Hello everyone,

I don't usually post much but this topic is so interesting I have to ask a question. I'm confused about the use of the term chip dumping. I've always thought it meant one person was dumping chips from a compromised account or credit card to his/her legit account so as to be able to transfer the funds off site. I don't understand much about poker tracker, but are you using the term to indicate dumping in order to alter poker tracker stats? Are they dumping the chips to one another?

A nitty technicality, I know, but if anyone could answer this I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

WholeBean

 

[GaryWatson]

Hello everyone,

I don't usually post much but this topic is so interesting I have to ask a question. I'm confused about the use of the term chip dumping. I've always thought it meant one person was dumping chips from a compromised account or credit card to his/her legit account so as to be able to transfer the funds off site. I don't understand much about poker tracker, but are you using the term to indicate dumping in order to alter poker tracker stats? Are they dumping the chips to one another?

A nitty technicality, I know, but if anyone could answer this I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

WholeBean

Yes chip dumping is too offload cash from a suspicious account.

The poker tracker is a use to track play but can be useful to detect patterns of play. It offers a more accurate stats overview. I dont really know much about poker tracker and its stats but apparently some of it has shown up patterns that would suggest chip dumping and an inside advantage.

Im only really going with my own hand analysis to determine the AP case

 

[pokeraddict]

The hand histories are really what shows the chip dumping. In these HU sessions one of the cheats would cap every street and fold either when he was down to his last few chips that would put him all in or for 1 bet on the river. Of course a nut player might play like this but a nut player is going to win a few hands along the way or get folded to. The dumper lost $55,000 in that session.

 

[WholeBean]

Good replies but I'm still confused about the "chip dumping". Are they dumping the money to each other in order to confuse the poker tracker stats or is there some reason they need to move the money from one account to another just to be able to withdraw? As far as AP is concerned the accused accounts are legit, and therefore they should be able to do their own withdrawals. Seems the site will not clamp down on chip dumping unless there is some usual kind of fraud, credit card theft and account hacking. I don't understand why they need to chip dump. Has anyone looked at the chip dumping to see if all the money is going to the same player account? I guess they would do this so that if the cheating accounts get locked the account that they dumped to can still offload the money??? Is that the case here? Did all or most of the dumping go to the same account or a small number of other accounts?

Thanks for anyone who has looked at the data and can answer my questions.

WholeBean

 

[GaryWatson]

Personally I think the chip dumping resulted after a panic.

The panic was that they had a ridiculous winning edge, as illustrated by poker tracker stats.

I dont know how many account they were dumped to.

AP stated there was no chip dumping. Fair enough, they dont want people to know their security has been compromised.

Apparently the investigated accounts were dumping during the investigation. It makes me wonder who they where investigating. It makes me wonder if the security team were playing poker and missed what their advanced algorithms missed. It just makes me wonder.

 

[WholeBean]

O.K. Heres my nitty argument: Stop using the term chip dumping for what has happened. Chip dumping indicates a specific type of fraud. Chip dumping is a violation of a sites terms and conditions because it is directly related with credit card fraud and account hijacking (correct me if Im wrong). From what Ive seen posted here the accused accounts have lost money intentionally to random opponents, not chip dumping. Although something suspicious is going on, losing money on purpose probably does not violate a sites terms and conditions.

I hope you agree. The use of the term is inflammatory and detracts from the original accusation of hole card cheating.

WholeBean

 

[GaryWatson]

O.K. Heres my nitty argument: Stop using the term chip dumping for what has happened. Chip dumping indicates a specific type of fraud. Chip dumping is a violation of a sites terms and conditions because it is directly related with credit card fraud and account hijacking (correct me if Im wrong). From what Ive seen posted here the accused accounts have lost money intentionally to random opponents, not chip dumping. Although something suspicious is going on, losing money on purpose probably does not violate a sites terms and conditions.

I hope you agree. The use of the term is inflammatory and detracts from the original accusation of hole card cheating.

WholeBean

I would say chip dumping means offloading chips. The player has intentionally misplayed the hands for whatever reason. The reason makes no real difference. Chips were being dumped. Yes, it is against the terms & conditions. Yes, it appears fraudulent. Maybe it was dumped to random players, maybe it wasnt. Maybe the security team have left town. Maybe they are out in full force responding to forum comments,

The use of the term was accurate & instead of detracting from the hole card argument, it actually adds flame to the fire.

 

[WholeBean]

Quote from Gary: The player has intentionally misplayed the hands for whatever reason. The reason makes no real difference.

I disagree. I'm just looking at this from both sides. There are complaints about player xyz indicating chip dumping. Security breaks out the manual and starts checking off conditions which must be met in order to prove chip dumping.
Condition 1) did player loose chips in a manner that appears deliberate? Yes.
Condition 2) did player recently deposit the dumped money using stolen credit card? No.
Condition 3) is an unauthorized person using the account to dump chips? (hopefully they call the account owner on this one) Answer: No.

Result: conditions constituting chip dumping have not been met. Account is free to play.

So, the reason the accused accounts are loosing chips in an obvious manner is to cover their obvious cheat play by playing like the donkeys their poker tracker stats suggest they are? O.K. I don't have a problem with that. It's just that that reason to loose chips doesn't meet the conditions of chip dumping as I understand them.

I kind of think I'm beating a dead horse here though. Probably I got into this discussion to late. I mean, if your going to insinuate that I work for AP, than I guess you've decided it's just easier to attack the person rather than discuss the points.

WholeBean

 

[jetset]

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Looks as if Poker-King has been unable to elicit a statement from Absolute in the way that Bryan has.

 

[jetset]

Lots0 is a no-BS, opinionated kind of guy. We aren't all going to agree on everything. I happen to feel that AP is up to no good here, and just because Lots0 disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm going to bash him.

Now can we move on and try to keep this thread about Absolute...

Good post, SlotsWizard - let's try and keep the thread on track, disciplined and with respect for each other's right to an individual opinion.

 

[jetset]

Wholebean - btw I don't see GaryWatson attacking you - he's debating the issue of chip dumping with you.

 

[GaryWatson]

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Looks as if Poker-King has been unable to elicit a statement from Absolute in the way that Bryan has.

IMO, AP have sent a bunch of people into forums to discredit any suggestions of dishonesty. They have made no attempt to answer in any reasonable detail.

Currently, they stand to lose all of the serious players at 2+2 and beyond. They are banking on the 90% who do not read forums. Word gets around pretty quickly. It is probably costing them overtime payments sending staff to answer forum threads like this. It costs them nothing to come out and make an honest response. It looks as though they cant.

AP, at first was probably expecting this to blow over. Now they are hoping. They are not only losing players but they are losing the affiliates who bring them future players.

As for the chip dumping term, it only takes a regular poker player to read the 2+2 thread to work that out.

If AP are innocent, they need to investigate their staff

 

[SeattleSinner]

It just occured to me that if AP would admit that something has happend they would be responsible to refund all the loses players have acquired against these cheats. This would amount to millions of dollars which they quite possibly could not afford. Hopefully word will spread around and this shyster operation will go under.

 

[Pinababy69]

the accused accounts have lost money intentionally to random opponents,

That is the definition of chip dumping, is it not? When you lose money INTENTIONALLY, you are dumping.

In any event, the chip dumping is only a part of the story. There was fraud/cheating going on prior to the chip dumping. The theory is that they then went and lost intentionally to try and "cover up" what they had done. I've seen the hand histories that were posted...it was chip dumping, no two ways about it.

Edit: Sorry Wholebean, I just read your above post. The chips may not have been obtained via a fraudulent payment method ie. credit card. BUT, they were certainly obtained by fraudulent play. Of course, if you're a non-believer that these accounts cheated at all....I guess that won't fly for you.

 

[The Dude]

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Looks as if Poker-King has been unable to elicit a statement from Absolute in the way that Bryan has.

I'm just checking my inbox tonight and YES, I have two more responses from Absolute Poker. This is after I acknowledged their first response (which I posted earlier). I wrote them back with the following:

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the response. Please keep me up to date on the
investigation since this thread is getting a bit of traffic, and it is
pretty much in the forefront of the poker news.

With what has been posted, it seems that there is a fair bit of
collusion going on. I hope you can find out exactly what is happening.

Sincerely,


Bryan

So they wrote me back:

Dear Mr. Wilson,

Thank you for your email.

We were unable to locate an account under the email address [email protected]. Please keep in mind that we will be more than happy to provide any information you may require regarding the mentioned account, once we verify you are the account holder.

To ensure the security of our customers' account, it is our policy not to provide any information about an account to anyone but the account holder. To verify that you are the owner of the account, you contact us from the registered email address or send us an email with the following information:

- Complete Name
- Nickname
- Registered email address
- Complete physical address
- Phone number
- Deposit method and ID details
- Zip code

By submitting this information, we will confirm your account rights and then we can properly provide you with the requested information.

Remember, that we are always eager to help our customers, however for your own security we hope you understand that sometimes we need conduct security checks, to ensure that your personal information is not distributed to any one other than yourself.

Thanks for playing at Absolute Poker! If there is anything else we can help you with, please let us know. We are here for you!

Sincerely,

Dan

Who da ef is Mr. Wilson? And then this one:

Dear Bryan,

Thank you for writing us back!

At Absolute Poker, we want to make sure that your experience at our tables is great and will strive to do everything possible to meet this goal.

Please let us inform you that will keep you updated in the events of news.

Feel free to contact us again, should you have further questions or concerns.

Have a nice day!

Thanks for playing at Absolute Poker!

Sincerely,

Ana
Team Absolute ~ Customer Support
"To Continue to be the Best and Most Trusted"
[email protected]

Were Here To Stay! All Players Welcome!

Come and join the action this weekend with our 150k guaranteed on Saturday and 60k on Sunday! With more and bigger guaranteed tournaments, Absolute Poker is your place to play. See you at the tables whenever, wherever!

Why in the hell do they wish that my experience at their tables is great? I'm not a customer, unless they think I'm Mr. Wilson

Looks like someone is doing some hellacious bong hits in Costa Rica.

 

[Pinababy69]

Why in the hell do they wish that my experience at their tables is great? I'm not a customer, unless they think I'm Mr. Wilson

Too much Bryan, that is friggin priceless. And anyone wonders why they can't find any evidence of wrongdoing? They can't even find their own bloody customers, or hand histories of existing customers. Honest mistake I'm sure, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Bailey are so very close.

Here's the head of Security out on a smoke break (sorry, no bong pics handy, a joint will have to do). :smilewink:

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