Betsafe block my account after losing 22K$

[P.V.]

What's the purpose of setting a limit or offering limits if you can simply remove it and go hog wild? Once you set a limit is there a time frame you must wait before you can raise it or remove?

 

[Nifty29]

Yes i feel sick to be honest to be treated like this, i had comps at betsson for a while now that they have taken and i dont remember my balance at casinoeuro too. If they were proffesionals they would send all those remaning balance (also on betsafe as i didnt leave from there completely 0) back to deposit options and also as they promised for a cashback to neteller. i read they also ditch everyones affiliate program so this sounds like they simply dont care.


By the way to Brian i got email from betsafe that my deposit limit was removed the same day i maked "note this is google translate from norwegian to english so it can have some words that is wrong" note i wrote long email to Gabriella but she didnt answer nothing but this :

"Regarding the aforementioned deposit limit of Kr 1000 daily, You removed this limit 29.12.2013.

Regarding your question about how we behave as a responsible company so I refer you to please see our previous response.

With Best Regards,
Gabriella
Customer Service Manager"

This company is lying about the limit, she says the day i set limit i also removed this? do i have case to submit for a PAB here?

I'd be careful if I were you.

It's very easy for the casino to provide Max with a log showing WHEN the limit was changed and by WHOM.

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that you removed it yourself....just like they told you that you could in the first email, right?

Seriously...as we say over here...."cr@p, or get off the dunny". In other words, submit your PAB and let it run it's course, or don't submit a PAB and quit harping on about how it's everyone else's fault. The more you post, the more desperate and unreasonable you sound, which isn't doing you any favours either.

 

[maxd]

... do i have case to submit for a PAB here?

Bryan has already answered this question:

I've given you access to the PAB submission page. Please submit one as soon as you can. Thanks! If you have any problems, please let me know.

Don't delay, PAB asap. But please do read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ before you proceed, doing so will save us both a lot of headache down the road.

 

[onkel]

OP probably reduced their limit and then raised/removed it the same day. This is an effective way to take a week's break, as increases in limits take 7 days to come into effect, while a decrease is instant.

Based on Betsafe's response, I'd be fairly certain that this is what happened. (although I obviously hope to be wrong)

 

[maphesto]

OP probably reduced their limit and then raised/removed it the same day. This is an effective way to take a week's break, as increases in limits take 7 days to come into effect, while a decrease is instant.

Based on Betsafe's response, I'd be fairly certain that this is what happened. (although I obviously hope to be wrong)

We don't know what's the better thing is in the end if op still want's to gamble. This ending up with him losing all these 22k$ might be the best thing for him in the long run. I think you are right about the week break he probably needed dec 29, he removed it the same day (a guess).

 

[skiny]

There's no doubt the OP shouldn't be gambling anymore. I don't think the account should be reopened and any bonuses given for him to play with.

I was just curious why the account was locked in the first place.

Suspected fraud? Suspected addiction?

I'm waiting to find out what the official reason is.

 

[maxd]

@ rezak : I have received your PAB and will submit it to the casino representative immediately.

Please ensure that you have read and understood the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. It is required reading for all PABers. Among other things the FAQ details your responsibilities in the PAB process (section 3.11), including NOT posting on our forums about your issue while the PAB is in progress.

If you have read and respect the FAQ things should proceed smoothly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[chinomoreno]

Are you playing with the said casino for a long time now or just recently?

 

[P.V.]

Are you playing with the said casino for a long time now or just recently?

The OP has filed a PAB therefore won't be commenting while in progress.

 

[KasinoKing]

Are you playing with the said casino for a long time now or just recently?

From reading his posts it looks like he was a long-time member at Betsafe, as well as at several other casinos in the same group.

KK

 

[maxd]

Ok, I've heard back from the casino in detail (some time ago actually, my bad). While there are matters that I'll be further discussing with the player and the casino -- specifically the limits thing, it's not clear to me at this point what happened when and/or why -- I feel that I can comment on the "account closed" issue.

The rep reports that the account was closed because the player wrote them asking for compensation on the large losses and yet the player was clearly on tilt. Seriously, given what the player was saying the only responsible thing for the casino to do WAS to close the account without hesitation. If they hadn't they may well have been on the hook for anything that followed, which could have been pretty much anything given the player's obviously distressed state of mind.

The case continues but I have no doubt that the casino acted responsibly insofar as closing the player's account(s).

 

[JackTenOff]

Fair play to betsafe for closing the account of an obvious problem gambler, many rogueish casinos would have happily let him carry on

 

[rshkrn]

The rep reports that the account was closed because the player wrote them asking for compensation on the large losses and yet the player was clearly on tilt. Seriously, given what the player was saying the only responsible thing for the casino to do WAS to close the account without hesitation. If they hadn't they may well have been on the hook for anything that followed, which could have been pretty much anything given the player's obviously distressed state of mind.

Definitely right thing to do for the Casino, but how come some kind of flag did not go off at say 10K or 12K or even 20K? I am sure if a player makes those kind of deposits in a such short time someone's got to notice.....

 

[fire]

I've also find it very irresponsible that Betsafe has allowed this type of behavior in deposits that clearly demonstrates a loss of control by the player.

IMO this should not be an attitude from a company that claims to offer responsible gaming.

 

[Nifty29]

I've also find it very irresponsible that Betsafe has allowed this type of behavior in deposits that clearly demonstrates a loss of control by the player.

IMO this should not be an attitude from a company that claims to offer responsible gaming.

OK cool.

So your solution is......???

Before you say "have a set cutoff/alarm limit"...think about players who routinely deposit these kinds of amounts...and there are plenty. How annoyed would you be to have to explain yourself every time you pass the limit? And...what should be the limit? $1k? $5k? $50k? You need to either state a number, or the whole idea is unworkable (and probably would be anyway). I mean....at what point did they lose control? Can you please elaborate?

Yes, casinos should (and have in this case) have processes in place for responsible gambling. However, the party that is actually RESPONSIBLE for what they spend is the PLAYER. It's no good bleating about "they should have stopped me playing/depositing etc" AFTER the fact. If one feels they need some kind of 3rd party process to shoulder some of THEIR responsibility, one should check with the casino FIRST to find out what processes they actually have e.g. self imposed deposit limits etc.

It appears that operators just cannot win when it comes to responsible gambling. The main reason for this is that they are always the first ones to cop the blame when someone overspends. FFS people....if you're adult enough to gamble, then you're adult enough to take responsibility for the consequences. The whole world is increasingly playing the blame game and everybody is paying for it in ridiculous insurance rates and increase prices in stores etc.

Pretty soon some short person will be suing their local council for building a footpath too close to their arse!!

 

[chayton]

Definitely right thing to do for the Casino, but how come some kind of flag did not go off at say 10K or 12K or even 20K? I am sure if a player makes those kind of deposits in a such short time someone's got to notice.....

Agreed, since the player did contact support after being down half of their entire bank account. Not closing the account until he was completely out of money seems a little like closing the barn door after the horses have already eaten the children.

Although maybe full panic mode may not have set in for the player until the money was completely gone - without seeing the contact the OP had with support we can't really judge. The first time might have been "Hey I'm down $10K, any chance of a bonus?" and the last one, "OMG my life sucks, I just spent every dime of a $22K loan that I was supposed to use for....etc" and that's when support knew they were dealing with someone who was out of control.

Sad but the player is still at fault here, nobody forced them to spend that money. If there were limits set that were ignored by the casino that's another story.

But if it was the player that changed the limits...if the casino has a cash-back scheme where the player would have gotten a percentage of their deposits back if the account wasn't closed, it would be a nice gesture for them to send that money directly to the player's bank, maybe as well as any cash from comps the player earned - without opening the account again. It seems like it would be a nice thing for them to do, although maybe they're not really obligated to do it.

 

[fire]

For who routinely does not deposit these kinds of amounts in a short timeframe, for who is spending much more than usually spend, for someone that had imposed lower deposit limits before, just to give you a few exemples. It's very easy to spot this kind of change in behaviour. In fact these obvious changes of behavior are already monitored by large casinos to protect themselves against fraud and security violations.

You clearly do not understand anything about human behavior. Keep yourself safe.

 

[Nifty29]

For who routinely does not deposit these kinds of amounts in a short timeframe, for who is spending much more than usually spend, for someone that had imposed lower deposit limits before, just to give you a few samples. It's very easy to spot this kind of change in behaviour. In fact these obvious changes of behavior are already monitored by large casinos to protect themselves against fraud and security violations.

You clearly do not understand anything about human behavior.

Nope. Don't understand a thing.

So...educate me....since you know all about it and I don't.

Let's hear your solutions to the problem. It's more than a little disingenuous to state that this casino did the wrong thing and their process is flawed, and then not offer any idea of who it SHOULD be done. Come on then....where do they set the limit? Who decides what's "normal" and what is not?

You can monitor accounts all you like for increases in play or deposits, but if you do so, there are really only two choices. One, you suspend the account and ask the player for written agreement that they are happy to keep playing and depositing (which almost every player in the OPs case would do...but then I don't know humans so....). Two, you close the account permanently.

I'll also tell you something else from what I don't know about human behaviour. If the casino HAD stopped the player at (let's say) half of what they actually spent, it is almost certain that the OP would just have gone and blown the other half at some other casino. So, what's the point? The casino can try and "protect" the player all they like, but if they want to gamble, they will gamble elsewhere.

The measures you alluded to (but didn't expand on) in your opening are there to protect the HOUSE not the PLAYER in most circumstances. Land casinos are a very different animal.

 

[fire]

I understand and respect your opinions Nifty, but I don't agree with you.

Sorry but I'll not take this discussion any further. Best wishes!

 

[skiny]

Even if a casino wanted to monitor every player's deposit habits and compare them to recent deposits to act as a baby sitter for problem gamblers the logistics of it would be nearly impossible.

First of all it would be far too time consuming for it to be done manually by security departments or support reps. Some casinos may have thousands of people making deposits every week and on top of the great deal of time spent, they would suffer the same problems that an automatic system would.

For it to be done automatically, the casino software would have to keep an average deposit size over a long period of time and then compare it to recent deposits. It would require an arbitrary amount of increase to cause a red flag. The problem being that many people don't have average deposit amounts to begin with.

And to compound the problem not every player plays at the same casino so if a player made deposits at several casinos and then decided to make all the deposits at one casino it would appear to be an increase in spending when in fact the amount spent gambling wouldn't have changed.

Compounding the problem even further, an increase in deposits is not always a problem. It's entirely possible that a player is gambling a portion of money that's been won at another casino.

Whether it was done manually or automatically, accounts would constantly be flagged or suspended for no real good reason and the casino would have to contact every player being flagged and determine if the increase was due to a gambling problem.

Even if the casino went to this great length to weed out the problem gamblers there would still be no way of knowing if a player truly has come into a win fall that allows him or her to play more than normal or if a player has just decided to make all deposits at one casino rather than spreading them around. Sometimes addicts lie.

If a player normally makes several deposits at various casinos and has decided one day to give you all his business, do you really want to thank him by suspending his account and questioning his mental health? (That one made me grin.)

Obviously casinos have to be wary of problem gamblers and offer help to those who become known to the casino one way or another but it seems to me that searching for them by monitoring every player's spending would be an enormously daunting task and probably doomed to fail anyway.

 

[rshkrn]

OK cool.

So your solution is......???

Before you say "have a set cutoff/alarm limit"...think about players who routinely deposit these kinds of amounts...and there are plenty. How annoyed would you be to have to explain yourself every time you pass the limit? And...what should be the limit? $1k? $5k? $50k? You need to either state a number, or the whole idea is unworkable (and probably would be anyway). I mean....at what point did they lose control? Can you please elaborate?

Not saying the casino is at fault here. Also if the player is a regular or a VIP who's done this before and who clearly is a high-roller the casino could have been happy to let it continue...or even allow a gradual increase in limits over time

What I am saying is if a new or dormant player suddenly exhibits this behavior it needs to ring bells.......

 

[naththo]

Its entirely up to casino to close his account for his own safety and also the fraud detection may have tipped the casino off when he spent way too much in short space of time. The casino is there to protect themselves and others from fraud and money laundering. So they have had no choice to take action against him. The player asked for compensation like what moderator said he tilted it. So casino chosed to remain keep his account closed for time being. I think it will be a permanent closed account.

I have feeling that casino did not provide enough clear information to moderator who is in charge of PAB. So this case is not really closed is it? Everything seems not clear to me.

There are possibilities that the player may be money laundering or fraud, or a serious gambling addiction or even misuse his relative account (like maybe his gf or wife). Thats the reason casino had triggered the red flag on him. But anyway I checked op status he's now non-gambler, so I guess he gave up. I hope he does given up for real. He will have to work hard to recover the money he lost in gambling. Thats the consequence. Probably a real good lesson for him to be learnt from the most critical mistakes.

 

[maxd]

.... The casino is there to protect themselves and others from fraud and money laundering. So they have had no choice to take action against him.

Generally speaking it is wise not to make assumptions about behing-the-scenes stuff which you can't possibly know anything about:

1. AFAIK the casino's actions had nothing to do with fraud or money laundering and their actions weren't about protecting their financial interests. As I said previously when the OP wrote to them he was clearly in a deeply unhealthy state of mind and obviously had no control over his spending. The casino largely acted to protect the player not themselves.
2. It is not really fair to say that "casino did not provide enough clear information", rather it was more an issue of me wanting to know more about aspects of the case which had not, as yet, been the focus of attention. I have no reason to believe the casino withheld anything nor that they will.

 

[paul7388]

saw all the posts about how alarm bells should have rung and casino should stop any players account when they deposit more than normal. How can a casino know how much someone actually gambles when there are so many casinos . say I regularly deposit £1000s at Ladbrokes and 32red but I only deposit odd £20 every now and again at guts. So even tho I gamble a lot and decided one night id play guts instead and deposited a £1000 in a few transactions id be really mad if they locked my account as ive spent way to much when its less than id normally gamble . End of the day its so hard for casinos to track every players deposits especially when players deposit thousands a day its the players responsibility that's why theirs limits available. And I don't deposit thousands a day BTW its just an example.

 

[naththo]

Hi, ah, I must have misunderstood parts of it. Thanks for clarification now I can understand better now. I appreciated your reply.

Generally speaking it is wise not to make assumptions about behing-the-scenes stuff which you can't possibly know anything about:

1. AFAIK the casino's actions had nothing to do with fraud or money laundering and their actions weren't about protecting their financial interests. As I said previously when the OP wrote to them he was clearly in a deeply unhealthy state of mind and obviously had no control over his spending. The casino largely acted to protect the player not themselves.
2. It is not really fair to say that "casino did not provide enough clear information", rather it was more an issue of me wanting to know more about aspects of the case which had not, as yet, been the focus of attention. I have no reason to believe the casino withheld anything nor that they will.