Resolved Rushmore- sucky rule to confiscate funds

[vinylweatherman]

But we're talking two years here, not just six months...

We need more info from the OP on WHY he just decided to let this linger. Maybe he ASSUMED the withdrawal would be processed eventually, and was just incredibly patient. So patient that he ended up forgetting all about the withdrawal.

I keep records of my pending withdrawals, date, amount, and casino. I cross them off once I have confirmed receipt. I also know roughly how long withdrawals are meant to take.

Despite this, through an oversight I have occasionally forgotten to add a withdrawal to my list, only remembering it a while later. It is quite possible that this player did simply forget in the end, and only remembered some time later, and had kept no records.

I also keep records of all accounts I have ever opened, and where, and the total of all deposits and withdrawals per casino.

Although this player left it an exceptionally long time, discussion seems to point to Rushmore making no effort to get in touch with this player to give him a chance to prevent the account becoming dormant.

Most casinos that do deactivate a dormant account WILL return the funds to the player if asked, and say that the removal from the account, and it's deactivation, is merely to PROTECT the player's funds from unauthorised access. These casinos have NO INTENTION of profiting from dormant funds.

I would like to hear from Rushmore what efforts were made to contact this player before the decision was made that he was uncontactable, and the account was deactivated.

Given the wealth of personal info we have to give upon registration, not just email, but our postal address, and phone number, I find it hard to believe that the casino had no means to contact the player long before this situation reached 2 years. They could have easily used the post if emails didn't seem to work, or even phoned the player.

Removal of funds on a permanent basis should be a LAST RESORT, and something that a casino "almost never does" in practice.

Perhaps this is something we missed in the recent discussion of what standards should be set for accredited casinos. We dealt with many things, but how dormant accounts are dealt with I don't recall being one.

Had I thought of it, I would have suggested allowing the casino to cover it's costs for keeping a dormant account on the books, and any costs in tracing the player, but that they should NOT simply take the entire balance as pure profit after a set period of time - this only encourages them to take a minimal approach to tracing the player for fear of being too thorough, and losing the chance to pocket a profit.

 

[elscrabinda]

According to the casino, the player did cashout - but with the wrong method. The casino contacted the player (or at least attempted to) and the player never responded...and for some reason, he forgot about this issue for two years.

So my gut feeling says that there is more to this story than what has been explained here. You just don't forget about a casino account that has a large cashout pending for two years. Is it only me who finds this strange??

Some of you need to pause and ask yourself "why?" In the meantime, I'll wait for a response from the operators to find out what exactly had happened.

I appreciate that the idea of forgetting about/not chasing up a large balance/ withdrawal may be strange to some but it was not money that I had immediate need of and so when I periodically did think to myself "oh, I still have some money sitting in Rushmore" it was never top of my to do list to do anything about it. I have money sitting in a number of casino accounts, some of which I trust enough to treat as banks and I don't feel the need to cashout constantly. Maybe I will from now on.

Regardless of the other details of this case I think its a shame if people base their opinion on the basis of "he didn't need it, so he doesn't deserve it". No one should be gambling with money they can't afford to lose. Having it pointed out to me that its been nearly 2 years doesn't make me feel too clever, but it also doesn't convince me that the casino's behaviour was any more reasonable.

 

[thelawnet]

According to the casino, the player did cashout - but with the wrong method. The casino contacted the player (or at least attempted to) and the player never responded...and for some reason, he forgot about this issue for two years.

So my gut feeling says that there is more to this story than what has been explained here. You just don't forget about a casino account that has a large cashout pending for two years. Is it only me who finds this strange??

Yes.

This has happened to me several times.

Some examples:

* I withdrew some money from my casino account, but I'd cancelled my card, the card company rejected it, and the money got sent back to my casino account. Eventually I chased it up.

* The casino sends me an email asking for passport/credit card statement/blood samples, but it's 11pm and I resolve to do it later. I forget about it, and then get an email from them years later saying 'You've still got money in your account' and only then go get my money.

* I'm playing with comps and win 1000. My internet connection goes down while I'm playing, then I go away for a few weeks, come back and have completely forgotten about it. Eventually I notice.

What will *usually* happen is that the player will cash out, and then something goes wrong with the cashout for whatever reason, typically ID, or the casino refusing to pay out by a specific payment mechanism, or whatever, and that doesn't get dealt with.

The casino should never confiscate funds: a dormancy fee is not unreasonable, but they should email the player to inform him, each time a fee is deducted.

 

[funeral979]

Im not sure why its necessary to keep looking for 'holes' in the OPs story. Surely if there was something more Louise would have mentioned it, and I don't think elscrabinda is neccassirly looking for the balance back (although I would fight for it)

This is simply a distraction to the main point here. It is irrelevant if it was weeks or months or years. What is Rushmores reasoning for keeping these funds? Why are they lowering themselves to rogue standards? DO YOU FEEL SAFE PATRONIZING THEIR CASINOS?

 

[thelawnet]

Well it is, as you say, in their terms which you accept when you register so the casino is not at fault here.

Given you left "1 or 2 thousand" for over 6 months Im figuring you don't/did'nt need it, so you'll just have to write this one off unfortunately.

You will find almost all casinos have this term or one very similar.

I've never heard of such a term before. I've seen a few dollars taken away, but never thousands.

 

[Pulver]

But it was on the up and up, no doubt about it. You cannot have it both ways. They either went agains their T&C's and pulled a fast one and were unscrupulous or they follwed their T&C's to the letter which you agreed to and was up front about it.

An email would have been a good gesture but it doesn't even include that in the T&C's.

I feel awful about it if indeed it was your own monies, but how does one just "forget" they have a few thousand lying around for MONTHS? Any gambler knows where their monies are at any given time (this does not include "surprise" bonuses that are tossed in every once in while)

What is it that isn't being told??

.

I strongly dissagree with your post. I don't know about you, but I have probably 50+ sportsbetting accounts, (I always place bets on the bookie with the highest line) and atleast 50+ casino accounts. I have been in the OP shooes many times before. So to claim that he has to be a fraudster just because he forgott about some money is ridiculous. Don't you think Louise would have said he was a fraudster and that that was the reason they confiscated the money if that was the fact?

Forgetting about money in an account is so easy it is almost frightening..

Examples:

- In for example Betway you have to transfer the money from the casino into the sportsbook and then log into the sportsbook to cash out. I have more than once transfered money from the casino into the sportsbook, and then I forgett to log into the sportsbook and cash out from there.. I log on two months later and find $350 that I thought I had cashed out.

- I get an email late in the evening telling me that I have to send in my ID documents before the cashout can be processed, im to tired to do it that evening and decide im gonna do it the next day. The next day I get 50 new messages in my inbox and I forgett all about it untill im prompted 2 weeks later.

- I deposit into a sportsbook planning to place a bet, the line is changed dramaticly for the worse and I decide to place the bet in another bookie instead. Days go by and I forgett I ever deposited there.

There could be a thousand reasons why you forgett money in an account. Remember, many gamblers have 50 or even 100 different casino and sportsbetting accounts. It is so easy to forgett it.

I also feel that the amount is irrelevant, a few thousand for the OP could be like a couple of hundred for others. Just because a few thousand dollars would be something you wouldnt forgett, don't mean that the OP couldn't forgett it.

I feel that it is a general assumption that every time a player makes a complaint like this people start saying "there have to be more to this story than whats beeing told", "he is probably a fraudster" etc etc. "Everybody is innocent until proved guilty" is an important principle to remember.

No where is it mentioned that OP was a fraudster, not even by Louise. It really does not change the case either. OP forgott about money in his account and Rushmore seeized it without notifying the player, and when the player remembered he had money there, they refuse to pay it back. That is what this case is about, nothing else.

I find it strange that Rockbet is rogued for poor treatment of a case, while Rushmore has gotten away with very late payments for 2 months, asking players to change withdrawal methods and canceling their payments and now invoking rogue terms like this one, and still bee on the acredited list.

When I sign up to an acredited casino I expekt the best and to play at a "no nonsense casino". Im sorry to say it, but the once so brilliant Rushmore group can not be considered a "no nonsense" place to play at anymore in my eyes.

This is in no way an effort from me to shame any of the Rushmore casinos, but one of the few ways the casino industry can be regulated today is if the players stand up and speak up against unjust rules, late payments and rogue T&C. I used to love to play at the Rushmore group, and I hope that they look back at what once made them one of the best places to play online, and start operating in that way again.

 

[RobWin]

This is in no way an effort from me to shame any of the Rushmore casinos, but one of the few ways the casino industry can be regulated today is if the players stand up and speak up against unjust rules, late payments and rogue T&C.

ABSOLUTELY !! Great Statement there..

I used to love to play at the Rushmore group, and I hope that they look back at what once made them one of the best places to play online, and start operating in that way again.

There's words of wisdom in that statement there Rushmore, I hope you guys are paying attention here!
____
____

 

[silcnlayc]

Maxd: 2.Fraudsters will often leave their winnings to simmer for a while, sometimes a long while, in the hopes that the details of their doings will be lost in the fog of time.

Pulver:So to claim that he has to be a fraudster just because he forgott about some money is ridiculous.

Pulver, the only person tossing around the word "fraudster is you. Only one other place did I see it mentioned was when Max listed a general statement by numbers as above.

For you to be so focused on a word that was used only once, I am wondering just what it is you are trying to say?

As strange as it sounds, the bottom line is, the OP said they did NOT come here to try and get their money back, but are here to warn others of the actions of this casino.

So why are we even discussing it was my point. If they have resigned themselves to the fact they are not getting it back, and decide to come here to "warn" others..which I also I find very strange ...but then again, I guess not everyone feels it is ok to give in without a fight but I would fight tooth and nail for what is mine. This is why I feel there is more to this than we are hearing.

How does one say, oh well, they took it, let me tell others, and move on? I do not know how to say what I am thinking but this is the best I can do to get across my feeling about this. Sorry.

I strongly dissagree with your post. I don't know about you, but I have probably 50+ sportsbetting accounts, (I always place bets on the bookie with the highest line) and atleast 50+ casino accounts.

That really has nothing to do with it. Many of us have more than 50-100 casinos/sportsbook account.

.

 

[uungy]

Pulver, the only person tossing around the word "fraudster is you. Only one other place did I see it mentioned was when Max listed a general statement by numbers as above.

For you to be so focused on a word that was used only once, I am wondering just what it is you are trying to say?

As strange as it sounds, the bottom line is, the OP said they did NOT come here to try and get their money back, but are here to warn others of the actions of this casino.

So why are we even discussing it was my point. If they have resigned themselves to the fact they are not getting it back, and decide to come here to "warn" others..which I also I find very strange ...but then again, I guess not everyone feels it is ok to give in without a fight but I would fight tooth and nail for what is mine. This is why I feel there is more to this than we are hearing.

How does one say, oh well, they took it, let me tell others, and move on? I do not know how to say what I am thinking but this is the best I can do to get across my feeling about this. Sorry.

That really has nothing to do with it. Many of us have more than 50-100 casinos/sportsbook account.

.

Thats what the community is about! Warning others

There are many casinos that this can happen to. A typical example is Bluesq, if you withdraw, and for whatever reason it doesnt go through, it goes to the sports account instead. I have done it in the past (not left it there for 2 years). I also had about 4K in a casino for about 8 months, as I thought I had withdrawn it, but hadnt. I rarely play there, and never checked back.

Yes it does happen, be realistic!

Some players here actually do have more than $30 in their bank/e-banking account, and some are more fortunate not to realise that a couple of K are missing. Its reality, and the same thing that happens when cheques dissapear from some peoples cheque book.

The main point I think is, Louise has clearly stated that the reason was because of that term. I am sure they will soon say "we had to give that term, however there are underlying reasons we can't give, otherwise we are opening our doors to fraudsters" which seems to becoming the more common excuse now, but I dont trust them, and I believe their terms are in place so that they can resolve to not paying when ever they can, and the fact they implemented it, is the proof (once again) that they don't deserve to be accredited

 

[Pulver]

Maybe it was only Max who used the word fraudster, but several other's was looking for holes the OP's story, and that was the thing I pointed out. So, ok, maybe I overused the word fraudster, sorry for that. The point I was trying to make is that I feel that it is unfair towards the OP to imply that there has to be something shady going on because he forgott a couple of thousand $.

I know with myself how easy it is to forgett where I have money, and as a result of that I have I created a spreadsheet to keep some controll, it has helped me a great deal, but it still happens every once in a while... Guess I need to hire an accountant

I can not say anything on the motives of the OP in this case, he has however pointed out a term, and an enforcement of a term that I feel is unfair and unjust. And since this is an open discussionforum, and about the only place where we players can have any influence on the casino industry, I have posted my view on the matter in hopes that bringing matters like this to light, casinos will become a better place for us players.

That really has nothing to do with it. Many of us have more than 50-100 casinos/sportsbook account.

In my case this has everything to do with it. The reason why I tend to forgett slumps of money here and there is because I have so many accounts, especially spoortsbook accounts, that I sometimes forgett money here and there.

 

[silcnlayc]

The point I was trying to make is that I feel that it is unfair towards the OP to imply that there has to be something shady going on because he forgott a couple of thousand $.

Fair enough, I think I am understanding what you were saying. To me, red flags fly when one comes here and tries the innocence route, instead of all the other avenues such as the PAB etc...and not pursuing all the help one has here and goes straight for the kill. I think it is the way it was presented that I find fault with.
I also feel the casino could have done a better job in their position, and expanding on the reason they felt the need to invoke their rule. They too are not being open about this (not that they have too, just a courtesy to all players).

One thing I can say is, I am not for the casino or against the OP. Either way it plays out, In my gut , I still believe there are some things missing here to just give up ANY amount of money without a fight even if it WAS in the T&C's.

.

 

[Nifty29]

I've never heard of such a term before. I've seen a few dollars taken away, but never thousands.

Well Inetbet confirm they have a similar term, and the following is from Fortune Lounge:

The player acknowledges that casino management may close any casino account which is, in its sole opinion, undesirable or dormant for a period of 6 months. Any "real" funds i.e. not promotional or bonus funds (dealt with in terms of additional terms and conditions) in any such casino account at the time of closure will be claimable for 6 (six) months thereafter. Players who discover that their accounts have been closed in terms of this clause 17 shall be entitled to lay claim to such "real" funds upon application to the casino, whereafter such funds will be refunded to the player, provided that application has been made within the aforementioned time period.

** Under this term he would have been outside the 12 months period and would lose it all **

This is from Intercasino:

Your ECash Account will be deemed to be inactive if you do not process a Transfer Transaction from your account in any continuous period of ninety (90) days. Once your ECash Account is deemed to be inactive, you agree to pay ECash Direct a monthly service fee of the then applicable fee (or the current balance of your account, if less) so long as a balance remains after which the account will be closed. You authorize ECash Direct to debit this fee from your ECash Account on the first day of the month following the day on which your ECash Account is deemed inactive, and on the first day of every subsequent month that your ECash Account remains inactive, until your ECash Account becomes active again or the balance of your ECash Account is nil.

** Under this one he would have lost $720 which is still a fair chunk **

Anyway, the point is that most casinos have some kind of dormant account policy where they can confiscate some or all of the players funds.

The difference is, as in the InetBet case, whether the casino INVOKES the term or treats each case on its merits. Obviously Inetbet has occasions where they could have done so, but didnt in the interests of fairness and ethics.

As Bryan said, the casino should have contacted the player and given them 7 days or something to reply and/or login to his account. If they had done so, this thread wouldnt exist and it wouldnt be costing them far more than $2k in negative PR. It sucks that its in black and white in the terms, but as Pulver says its up to us as players to vote with our feet and stop these harsh terms being applied in the first place.

 

[Casinomeister]

Fall from Grace

The Rushmore Group has been removed from the Accredited Casino section. Here's why - even though this term is in their terms and conditions, I don't believe it was implemented fairly. The player should have been contacted - warned that his account was pending dormant status. And if the player fails to respond, then so be it. But if and when a player comes back - this player should have been allowed to pick up where he left off. What's the big deal?

The members are correct in stating that this behavior is not becoming of an "Accredited Casino". And if the casinos which are listed here value their listing on the site, then they need to treat their players fairly.

New term in our standards for the accredited casinos: "Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player." The term "fair" is not as subjective as it may seem. I think the membership - to include the i-Gaming reps - would agree with me on this issue.

 

[elscrabinda]

Good call imo, thanks for your behind the scenes work. For the record, on the topic of pitching a bitch, I think I gave the casino more than enough chance to behave more reasonably, but I appreciate that it helps Max/Bryan to get a heads up before a thread like this so will do so in future.

 

[chuchu59]

And that's where the accredited casinos remain the cream of the crop.

 

[zebedy]

Its a real shame that the management at the rushmore group didnt act and make things right when they had the chance, all the hard work louise has put in over the last 12 months has gone to waste by all the bad publicity over the last few months.
hopefully this will be a wakeup call for them,

 

[maxd]

... on the topic of pitching a bitch, I think I gave the casino more than enough chance to behave more reasonably....

[strike]FWIW, I don't recall anyone saying you didn't. I for one simply don't know either way. If you're still thinking of my post upthread then I remind you that[/strike] it was a general point I was making for the benefit of others who might read this thread and get the mistaken "no point in PABing" thing stuck in their heads, thereby killing any chance they might have had at a favourable resolution.

Ok, just looked back and it had come up, so I can see the reason for your comment now. Either way, I was making a general point as explained.

 

[lauram]

Let us hope, Louise will read this thread and reconsider placing the money back into the players account. I can see maybe a small fee for holding the account open but taking all the funds is uncalled for. If you leave a 0 balance in the account, they never close you off for not using it. Yet all these casinos have a 24 hour waiting period in hopes of you reversing a withdrawal to get you to play on. Or with some casinos they limit the withdrawal process to a few times a week for players as of the costs of processing. So after reading this it seems most players should pull their funds out of the account rather then leaving it in there to play. And for what it is worth here is what has gone on with me and funds in casinos longer then 6 months and not logged in.
Inetbet won off a free chip, no matter what I did they could not read id from me. The withdrawal was put in aug, feb I bought a new computer, was able to download inet sent them docs. Next am funds had been put into my ewallet.
My account by no means had the kind of funds in there that this player had.
I also must say mainstreet group slotsplus. Made a deposit, had been playing and a power failure hit. Lost my full computer, and could never get their casino to download again. It was well over a year and sighs another computer purchased. I thought lets download and see if i can get in. And yes my funds had still been sitting in my account for me to play on with.

So yes there are rtg casinos and mg casinos that do not apply this rule.

 

[Mouche12]

If an account remains inactive for a period of 30 months or more, Buzzluck has the right to deactivate said account and seize funds. In the eventuality that a request has been made from the account holder to return the available funds, Buzzluck will reactivate the account and reload funds as they were originally, providing that no fraudulent activity has taken place.

Now this is a reasonable term!

I would like to repeat once more that if the OP seeks legal advice, I believe he will have a good chance before a court of law that his account will be reactivated and he can continue to play with or withdraw the winnings from his deposit(s). If something is written in the terms, it does not mean that it is written in stone...

 

[DaveG39]

That's rogue behavior. They can close accounts if they like as per their terms but the money must be returned either to your original depositing method and if it's not possible to a withdrawal method agreed by both parties minus processing fees.

Press on with it. Dont let them get away with your money. Send a mail to them asking for your money together with your faxback forms (dont be lazy this time). Remember, they dont have the right to confiscate your funds though they can stop you from playing.

I just read that Rushmore Group is no longer accredited because of this "rogue" practice. Granted, a warning email probably should've been sent but who the frig leaves up to 2 grand laying around for nearly a year?? C'mon now.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

BTW 888.com will seize deposited funds if an account has been inactive for six months.

Hopefully Rushmore will do the right thing and repair this PR damage.

 

[Slotster!]

Nice work OP / CM.

The 'delayed payments' and puke inducing vague excuses a few months back were enough to make any player run far away from this lot... This nails it.

Rushmore are definitely well on the way to going tits up.

If anyone reading this is unlucky/forgetful/stupid enough to still have money sat in their Rushmore account - withdraw it now. Today. Right this minute.

Make sure your balance is zero before they do.

Treat despicable, dishonest, theiving organisations like this with the contempt they deserve.

 

[RobWin]

The Rushmore Group has been removed from the Accredited Casino section.

The members are correct in stating that this behavior is not becoming of an "Accredited Casino". And if the casinos which are listed here value their listing on the site, then they need to treat their players fairly.

A very smart move on your part Bryan. These casinos sometimes tend to forget exactly what it does mean to be on the highly acclaimed, Casinomeister "Accredited Casino" list here!
____
____

 

[uungy]

Just a small point. I would really be interested to know who "Louise" is. Has he/she come has over from another casino (such as the Crystal Palace Group etc.), with a different alias?

 

[chayton]

Does anyone know exactly how much $-wise was in the OPs account? I seem to recall reading that he wasn't even sure himself...?