Whine and Moan InterCasino Incident - What is your opinion? (warning: REALLY long)

[JHV]

Scooter7:

Firstly, awesome name. They changed my name back to my old JHV account but I was Scooter here for a day - would have felt like a dirty imposter upon seeing an established Scooter already here.

I worked at a land-based casino and have experience in dealing to VIP or Private Room tables where the bet sizes were many, many times my yearly salary and numbers were won and lost in minutes that most people would struggle to accept (I certainly was literally in shock on my first day in VIP as a croupier dealing a Roulette game with what must have been $200,000 on the table each spin - my hands were shaking and I was an experienced dealer).

Obviously as a $16/hr croupier, I had zero authority - and I can't speak for other casinos, but at the casino where I worked, FM's and Pit Bosses could authorise amazing amounts and did so often in such a casual manner, that their flippancy regarding it all was bordering on massively exploitable.

I mean, I was dealing BJ to an Korean millionaire one night and he'd be chopping and changing his bets from $5000 to $20000 pretty randomly. He'd bet maybe 20 in a row at $20000 and then bet $5000. He won the hand, looked genuinely confused and (through his translator) explained he meant to bet $20000. The pit boss just nodded to me and I slid him out another $15000.

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There might have been more history with this player than I was privy to obviously, but I'm not sure I would be *that* flippant about claimed mistakes in bet sizing.

But TWENTY THOUSAND bets at the MAX, then a single bet at the min? Come on. If you'd asked me % chance that InterCasino would credit my winnings from that spin after the event, I would have taken bets based on a confidence level approaching 99%+ that they would based on my wagering history consistency.

 

[Scooter7]

Scooter7:

Firstly, awesome name. They changed my name back to my old JHV account but I was Scooter here for a day - would have felt like a dirty imposter upon seeing an established Scooter already here.

I worked at a land-based casino and have experience in dealing to VIP or Private Room tables where the bet sizes were many, many times my yearly salary and numbers were won and lost in minutes that most people would struggle to accept (I certainly was literally in shock on my first day in VIP as a croupier dealing a Roulette game with what must have been $200,000 on the table each spin - my hands were shaking and I was an experienced dealer).

Obviously as a $16/hr croupier, I had zero authority - and I can't speak for other casinos, but at the casino where I worked, FM's and Pit Bosses could authorise amazing amounts and did so often in such a casual manner, that their flippancy regarding it all was bordering on massively exploitable.

I mean, I was dealing BJ to an Korean millionaire one night and he'd be chopping and changing his bets from $5000 to $20000 pretty randomly. He'd bet maybe 20 in a row at $20000 and then bet $5000. He won the hand, looked genuinely confused and (through his translator) explained he meant to bet $20000. The pit boss just nodded to me and I slid him out another $15000.

-----------

There might have been more history with this player than I was privy to obviously, but I'm not sure I would be *that* flippant about claimed mistakes in bet sizing.

But TWENTY THOUSAND bets at the MAX, then a single bet at the min? Come on. If you'd asked me % chance that InterCasino would credit my winnings from that spin after the event, I would have taken bets based on a confidence level approaching 99%+ that they would based on my wagering history consistency.

I've been in the high-limit pits myself. Mostly Baccarat and Roulette, some Blackjack. I remember bringing in a fill one day and grabbing the only stack of chips from the rack to cut them out for the sup. For a brief second I thought...hey, that's more than my mortgage! After that they were just chips.

With respect to your situation, (with the perpetual caveat about assuming the posted details are correct etc., etc.) in the casino's place, I pay the money. By rule, it's not yours, but that's not important anymore. It's a business decision based on the value of the investment versus the missed opportunity cost of keeping you as a player.

On video poker, 6 million a month in wagering on video poker at .5% edge (more if you're tipsy) less cash back makes you worth a minimum of 20,000 per month in theoretical win. If I keep you playing for only a month and a half, I get my money back and (hopefully) start seeing a good profit from a low-maintenance player.

This discussion is quite enjoyable.

 

[spearmaster]

I think that the casino has the right to make the decision in this case - although I sympathize with JHV and personally would have been extremely upset had this happened to me.

In the same situation - I would've done the same thing - stopped playing with Intercasino, and carried this negative feeling for quite some time.

Should the casino have considered paying the bet at $5? That depends. I understand that JHV played through a significant amount of funds - and if he never made a bet lower than $5/line, that certainly would carry weight as well - but most casino manager decisions are made based on long history, not over a few days.

As croupiers/dealers, both of you would know that a pit boss is more likely to be favorable to a player who is a "regular" and is friendly. A regular who is unfriendly may not get the same treatment, nor is someone new likely to get special treatment unless he is *really* friendly.

But given your bet history - if it is accurate - you could have been given the benefit of the doubt - but Intercasino just chose not to in this case, and you can make up your own minds on whether this was right or wrong, but it certainly isn't black and white.

 

[Jinglheimer]

WE THE VICTIMS

Do they think we are all stupid? Why not start a class action law-suit against some of these websites? Dilly dallying about the important forms that are "CC AUTHS." when it comes time to withdraw? These are forms they should insist on having then before ever accepting a deposit. I wonder if all the whadup and big-timing it I read about here isn't bait toward a pit of despair as I am sure that all the "GAMBLERS" experiences are common in these den of iniquities. So Jinglheimer@msn.com would like to hear from some "winners" that have been abused, cheated, ignored, etc. and take on these SHOULD BE ASHAMED concerns. JUST ABOUT ONE THING, THEN ANOTHER IF NEED BE, NOT AN AWESOME MEDLEY OF VARIOUS GRIEVENCES AS I SEE POSTED HERE. The wrong button! Those machines are designed to payout a dollar amt. vs the take and had you had max coins on at that time you would have been lucky to see a pair no doubt with the ad you have here for those crooks.

 

[RobWin]

What has happened to Ryan Hartley? I kinda figured he was still active on the forum here but he has not posted anything here since April 16th. I did see where he visited the forum on June 4th though. I'd like to hear his thoughts on this one.

 

[4 of a kind]

1.

In my opinion, if the logs back up the player's claim about betting patterns, I would look at the previous deposit and playing history and make a determination as to the potential future value of the customer and create a sticky bonus in the amount of the 'would have been' payout if I decided that I wanted this player in the house.

That's my 0.02 worth.

Maybe this is exactly what they did.


And with comments like this on a public forum from JHV "It's kinda funny. These negative experiences all stacking up on top of one another might be the best thing ever to happen to me, in terms of curing this silly vice. At the moment, especially after the Rome experience and thread, I have almost zero desire to play and am not even really looking forward to Vegas."

I'm certain that ruling won't change anytime soon...

 

[JHV]

What has happened to Ryan Hartley? I kinda figured he was still active on the forum here but he has not posted anything here since April 16th. I did see where he visited the forum on June 4th though. I'd like to hear his thoughts on this one.

Ah crap - this could be my fault. Your post reminded me of the forum rule requiring notification of I-Gaming Forum Reps prior to posting. I had not done this - have corrected it with frantic PM to Ryan now apologising for late notification (if, indeed, that is the reason he has been absent from this thread).

I did email him directly on the night of the incident and he never responded personally - this was long before the posting of this thread here. Instead I had the pleasure of dealing with his assistant Sharon - my comments which I interjected into her email in the OP I wish I could edit and tone down a couple levels now - I made them as all the frustration of the event build up again as was re-reading her response for the first time since I skimmed it in nausea 4 days after losing a great deal of money believing my winnings were 100% in the post once my logs and wagering history were analysed.

I'm not saying that I "demanded" or felt I "deserved" Ryan would respond to my concerns, purely that I hoped he would as I feared exactly what actually eventuated: my case was handled by an inexperienced (but likely well-meaning staff member) who took a long time to eventually make what I strongly believe was the wrong decision, and during which time I'd lost 6 figures playing on in the belief that no respectable operator would screw a player in this kind of situation.

For all I know, Ryan made the decision and she just communicated it to me - I have no idea. But it was actually the way she communicated it to me which sent me on Mega Kangaroo Monkey Tilt - but which I've probably responded to in a manner too harshly because she likely just meant well, inappropriate her communication style and language usage may have been for such a situation.

 

[Scooter7]

I've probably responded to in a manner too harshly because she likely just meant well, inappropriate her communication style and language usage may have been for such a situation.

Sometimes, when the player and/or CSR do not have English as a first language, intent and idiomatic expressions are easily misunderstood. You've obviously got a good command of English (actually, great for an Aussie), but I've seen many examples in the past where this was not the case (both in and out of the casino setting)

 

[Scooter7]

Scooter7:

Firstly, awesome name. They changed my name back to my old JHV account but I was Scooter here for a day - would have felt like a dirty imposter upon seeing an established Scooter already here.

I borrowed the nickname from a 'friend'. You can probably figure out who it is if you know where my avatar picture comes from


By the way, I do disagree with your evaluation of the software with respect to game-launch coin values. In my experience, a table game player rarely ends a session at the same bet level as they start, so remembering the last coin value (imho) isn't correct. Knowing that a) default coin value is always 'x' and b) knowing that the only time the coin value is not 'x' is when a game was closed before completion (in which case the coin value must be the previous value used in order to replay the interrupted game) appears to be the most player-protective attitude the casino can take. It could be construed as manipulative and/or confusing if the coin value is different each time based on what you last played.

I always considered myself as an advocate of the games, not the casino or the player, believing that respecting the game (and its procedures) was the best way to look after the needs of both the player and the house. It's like a player who absent-mindedly gives a hit signal on 11 when you know damn well that they always double down. I would 'pretend' not to see the signal to give the player a chance to realize that they should take another look since telling them to double would be 'enticing a bet' and technically (in Canada) can be grounds for losing your croupier license.

 

[JHV]

Sometimes, when the player and/or CSR do not have English as a first language, intent and idiomatic expressions are easily misunderstood. You've obviously got a good command of English (actually, great for an Aussie), but I've seen many examples in the past where this was not the case (both in and out of the casino setting)

Although our natural tongue is the whisperings of the Never-Never Land, but some while back (they say it was when the Red Cloud moved towards her Ancestral Sun)...progressive hippy types insisted on the widespread teaching of her Majesty's English in our public schools.

I imagine I am an unfortunate example of that disgracefully unpatriotic politically-motivated decision which sold out our spiritual heritage. Displaced identity etc..now it's all iMacs and electric pencil sharpeners and yo-yo's and Wii.

 

[JHV]

I always considered myself as an advocate of the games, not the casino or the player, believing that respecting the game (and its procedures) was the best way to look after the needs of both the player and the house. It's like a player who absent-mindedly gives a hit signal on 11 when you know damn well that they always double down. I would 'pretend' not to see the signal to give the player a chance to realize that they should take another look since telling them to double would be 'enticing a bet' and technically (in Canada) can be grounds for losing your croupier license.

Exactly! Decisions gotta be common-sense based, right....

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I'm not getting the image reference - do we have a mutual friend?

 

[Scooter7]

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I'm not getting the image reference - do we have a mutual friend?

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[Mouche12]

I borrowed the nickname from a 'friend'. You can probably figure out who it is if you know where my avatar picture comes from


By the way, I do disagree with your evaluation of the software with respect to game-launch coin values. In my experience, a table game player rarely ends a session at the same bet level as they start, so remembering the last coin value (imho) isn't correct. Knowing that a) default coin value is always 'x' and b) knowing that the only time the coin value is not 'x' is when a game was closed before completion (in which case the coin value must be the previous value used in order to replay the interrupted game) appears to be the most player-protective attitude the casino can take. It could be construed as manipulative and/or confusing if the coin value is different each time based on what you last played.

Considering the above and in view of the casino log clearly showing continuous 5 coin bets, don't you think you have a case against Intercasino, would it be worthwhile to do a PAB here? I am interested in the outcome!

 

[maxd]

... don't you think you have a case against Intercasino, would it be worthwhile to do a PAB here?

Forget it! "I want some goodies" is no basis for a PAB. This thread isn't entitled "Bitch and Moan" by accident.

 

[JHV]

I borrowed the nickname from a 'friend'. You can probably figure out who it is if you know where my avatar picture comes from


By the way, I do disagree with your evaluation of the software with respect to game-launch coin values. In my experience, a table game player rarely ends a session at the same bet level as they start, so remembering the last coin value (imho) isn't correct. Knowing that a) default coin value is always 'x' and b) knowing that the only time the coin value is not 'x' is when a game was closed before completion (in which case the coin value must be the previous value used in order to replay the interrupted game) appears to be the most player-protective attitude the casino can take. It could be construed as manipulative and/or confusing if the coin value is different each time based on what you last played.

Considering the above and in view of the casino log clearly showing continuous 5 coin bets, don't you think you have a case against Intercasino, would it be worthwhile to do a PAB here? I am interested in the outcome!

To be honest, I hadn't actually considered it. The whole thing was hugely demoralising for me really frustrated me as I'd played on and lost a fortune in good faith that they'd do the right thing.

After losing a fortune, they turn around and effectively slap me in the face with some piecemeal offers of bonuses with wagering requirements etc. I just wanted my winnings - not scraps off a table as if I was begging.

I spoke my mind VERY freely to Jasper and Sharon one night via email. And I don't really blame them for not responding after that. But I was horrified at the development of the situation and the whole way it was treated and handled.

In Sharon's first email, she TWICE mentions she's waiting on the wagering logs. What is the point of waiting on wagering logs to TELL ME what I already know and just told her because I...made...those wagers - what is the point of investigating those logs if, when my claims were true about NEVER spinning under MAX COIN over such a huge sample of wagering, you then ignore those wagering logs when you make your decision?

So whilst she was waiting for logs which she then completely ignored in her decision-making process, I was losing a fortune thinking my winnings would not be slivered out of my wallet on a really dubious technicality. She might just be more brilliant than I am - and the whole thing (including the lies about raising my MB withdraw limits after I did all the security checks) might be brilliant planning to frustrate customers into losing their balances in tilt. If you can't withdraw it anyway, might as well gamble it amirite? Geniuses.

I just found the entire thing insulting and degrading and I probably said as much to them in my final email where I may have given them an unrequested Performance Appraisal Review. They did not score very highly - if you were wondering.

Actually, I have no real beef with Jesper - or with Sharon. I'm sure they're limited by...god knows what. But my main problem was really with Sharon's delivery of the news I would not be receiving my winnings, but that I could JUMP FOR JOY as she had "bent rules" and "cut corners" to get me into an "exclusive VIP club" that "not just anyone can get into"!!

Wooohoooo!!! It was like Christmas! Instead of getting my winnings paid, I was going to get deposit bonus offers with wagering requirements and terms attached to them - offers I could get at 95% of the online casinos in the world and without having to listen to someone claim they had "cheated the promotional system" *just* for me - omg I felt so so special I almost cried!

 

[JHV]

Forget it! "I want some goodies" is no basis for a PAB. This thread isn't entitled "Bitch and Moan" by accident.

Are we to then imply that Pitch-a-Bitch *was* accidentally given that moniker? Or is it just the incessant moaning that belongs in this forum?

You're just a bucket of delight sprinkling sunshine all over this forum, aren't you Maxy?
You make me feel warm and fuzzy and part of a real close-knit community.

One day, if an online casino ever does something to me you consider worthy of a PAB (I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess they'd have to send ninjas to burn my house down and steal my innocence), I would want YOU on the case if you'd accept me as a client.


You need to learn to laugh at life. I know some good pirate jokes that will cheer you up....

Q. Why are pirates called pirates?

A. Because they arrrghhhh.

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PLENTY more where that came from.....

(I hope this post, which was made in a very light-hearted fashion, is not in breach of Forum Rule Section 12c, Sub-Section III, Point 4.1d - No One Must Have Fun at Max's Expense, Even Light-Hearted Fun)

 

[maxd]

Not cross, just have a low threshold for superfluous whinging.

 

[Casinomeister]

Are we to then imply that Pitch-a-Bitch *was* accidentally given that moniker? Or is it just the incessant moaning that belongs in this forum?

You're just a bucket of delight sprinkling sunshine all over this forum, aren't you Maxy?
You make me feel warm and fuzzy and part of a real close-knit community.

One day, if an online casino ever does something to me you consider worthy of a PAB (I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess they'd have to send ninjas to burn my house down and steal my innocence), I would want YOU on the case if you'd accept me as a client.


You need to learn to laugh at life. I know some good pirate jokes that will cheer you up....

Q. Why are pirates called pirates?

A. Because they arrrghhhh.

------------

PLENTY more where that came from.....

(I hope this post, which was made in a very light-hearted fashion, is not in breach of Forum Rule Section 12c, Sub-Section III, Point 4.1d - No One Must Have Fun at Max's Expense, Even Light-Hearted Fun)

Okay - you've finally pissed me off. 7 day suspension for being a pain in the ass. You don't dis the moderators - and you've already been warned about being confrontational.

Before you come back, read up on basic forum etiquette. Thank you.

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm also considering shutting this thread down since it's absolutely going nowhere. Any objections??

 

[chuchu59]

I second that Bryan. Close this thread, at least for the time being.

As for JHV, it's really a shame he continues to punce on people. He is quite a good writer and would have given VWM a run for the money for making long posts.

 

[Scooter7]

I'm also considering shutting this thread down since it's absolutely going nowhere. Any objections??

The thread was a very polite, interesting dialogue, but has probably run its course now unless InterCasino plans to make some sort of statement (which probably isn't really necessary).

As a former dealer/supervisor I've seen more scenarios like this than I care to count. The correct answer almost never has anything to do with player/house right/wrong. Almost always it's a customer service/goodwill/expected future value of the player-based decision.

As for your banning the OP for a week-perhaps you could consider reversing that decision if he promises to think twice before posting after an evening spent sipping adult beverages

 

[slotheadlizard]

No objections

Just like other thread, he's gone from being a delight, to sort of a dousce, for no apparent reason really. Keeps insulting the ones who are trying to give constructive advice.

*joke was funny though

 

[Pinababy69]

I'm also considering shutting this thread down since it's absolutely going nowhere. Any objections??

I second that emotion.

Thread had some interesting observations/dialogue, but as Scooter stated, it really comes/came down to a matter of a "goodwill gesture" or customer retention on the part of the casino. Certainly not PAB material, nor any real wrongdoing on the part of the casino. My opinion anyway.

As for ths suspension, I also agree. JHV seems highly intelligent, very well written, and could be a valuable contributor here. But he's gonna have to learn to lay off the sauce or whatever it is he's doing that keeps setting him off.

 

[Mouche12]

I second that emotion.

Thread had some interesting observations/dialogue, but as Scooter stated, it really comes/came down to a matter of a "goodwill gesture" or customer retention on the part of the casino. Certainly not PAB material, nor any real wrongdoing on the part of the casino. My opinion anyway.

Sorry, call me ignorant or inexperienced, but I think that Intercasino should have paid out the 25K, its obvious that OP is a big whale and would not suddenly change his coin size from 5 to 0.05. Intercasino also admitted as much by offering him a 5,000 bonus (no deposit I understand). I also understand from OP's story that there were quite a few frozen games, and although I do recognize that OP was not too bright anymore because of some drinks, this is quite a nuisance, and even more so if you bet such high amounts. OP's story may be a bit too long, but IMHO OP does have a point here.

 

[Mouche12]

Originally Posted by maxd View Post
Forget it! "I want some goodies" is no basis for a PAB. This thread isn't entitled "Bitch and Moan" by accident.

The more I think about it, the more I am of the opinion that OP is right. Considering the fact that OP has bet huge amounts, this is not simply a matter of 'wanting some goodies'; that is what I understand from his story, since he continued betting large amounts, awaiting the reply from CS.

Also, are you not a bit tough on him? I think OP has a point and he is allowed to bitch and moan, at least that's what I think. Actually, I would very much like to see that Intercasino, one way or the other, pays out the 25K. I think that from a moral point of view, OP is entitled to that. Besides, what about the matter of the malfunctioning software (game freezes)? IMO another issue that deserves attention in this matter. If Max is not willing to help, I suggest that OP gets himself a lawyer specialized in gambling issues.