Bitch and Moan InterCasino Incident - What is your opinion? (warning: REALLY long)

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
(Advance apology for my style of writing, which displays the fact that I have zero understanding of the value of the concept of 'brevity'.)

So, after years of frustration culminating in relatively large success playing poker full-time (up to 25/50nl), this year I cannot win at poker to save myself. I've been running pretty horribly since the clock ticked over to 2009 and although I've been in a huge variance downswing running bad, I had also started to play pretty crappy due to a number of factors, including:
- I hate the game of poker after 1.5-2 million online hands
- Almost 95% of players at 5/10nl - 25/50nl are 'competent' now, with a rapidly growing number I would have to class as 'very competent'
- My personal game is riddled with leaks and flaws which I can't be bothered fixing as my interest in the game has approached 0 a number of times during 2009
- There are few 'action' players like myself left at my levels, mostly because players are more concerned about variance than in the past and also because splashing chips around (fun poker) is somewhat exploitable by smart tighter styles (i.e. smart nits) - this sucks for me as I enjoy a splashy game and although I could tighten and nit it up, I didn't / don't really want to - which pretty much makes me exploitable if playing talented tighter types

So after months of traveling and losing most sessions I played, I found myself in (and am still in) a somewhat self-destructive phase where I'm bored, can't be bothered playing poker, but feel like gambling at something...so started mucking around with some casino house edge gambling.

Now, anyone who's been an 'advantage player' in the past (ironically, I only became an 'advantage player' after Golden Palace chain refused to pay my winnings, which led me to this forum and the great Meister [who provides an invaluable and probably under-appreciated or under-realised service for players who are screwed over by online casinos], where I read a lot and met some people who explained a lot of concepts to me over a few months' time)....knows the house advantage on most casino games, and for ones you don't, there is always the Wizard etc.

So this phase I'm in makes me a bit retarded in some ways, but I trade-off the House Advantage for my boredom - which, at the volume I've been doing, and the amounts I've been losing, is reaching concerning levels heh. But meh - it's been a fun ride, swinging from winning 100k in a day to losing 200k the next and wild, maniacal, fun, drunk gambooling of the finest degenerate order.

After I'd busted my accounts at poker rooms I play at which have casinos attached (I honestly cannot understand, from a business perspective, how any poker room can justify NOT having a casino for gambooling donks like me to splash around in) - I was looking for a casino to continue losing my poker bankroll in.

The first casino that sprung to mind was InterCasino - not sure why. I think because I've always considered them stand-up operators. There was an incident awhile back (1-2 yrs ago) where they advertised a "Free Flight Promotion" with terms incredibly attractive - I posted the promotion on a few poker forums and hundreds of players signed up as a result of my posts. I'm sure literally thousands or probably tens of thousands of people signed up for this promotion. I was receiving a great deal of love from forum members until players started getting screwed over by TLC Marketing (the firm hired by InterCasino to run the promotion).

I was royally abused by angry and frustrated players accusing me of pimping out InterCasino - and I was initially defended myself and InterCasino VERY strongly when threads started to appear with reports of being screwed over by TLC. When someone pointed out to me that TLC had been involved in scams like this before, as evidenced by a simple Google search - I felt incredibly embarrassed and stupid and apologised profusely for my role in advertising what I thought was a great promotional concept (I mean, I know players who signed up for the promotion who lost 5 figure amounts in their first sessions of play - so whilst some might think "Free Flight Promotion" too good to be true, I knew it was theoretically hugely +EV for InterCasino).

I was furious at InterCasino for going into business with a company that so obviously had run this semi-scam before and been publicly exposed - but when Ryan Hartley (or his rep's) got involved, and pressure was appparently exerted on TLC by InterCasino - some players (after jumping through ridiculous hoops and tilt) started reporting they got their free flights (but not at the dates they wanted, and not as promised by InterCasino's promotional T&C). My reputation, although battered (some people still abuse me about it on a forum occasionally), recovered somewhat and a number of people apologised for their accusations against me etc - basically, I was grateful that it seemed Ryan Hartley and InterCasino appeared to "do the right thing".

Still, many players never got their "free flight" and were, in effect, screwed over. Thankfully, most of these players were relatively successful poker players so they weren't too emotional about it.

I guess InterCasino was the first casino I thought of because, apart from casinos attached to poker rooms with my balances tantalizingly close to house edge danger, it was the last online casino I'd played to get this "Free Flight". I'd lost 5000 or something on Pai Gow and no, I never got my free flight lol, but from hearing the stories of the hoops players had to jump through to get the free flight, I'll admit I never even send in the mountains of joke paperwork to TLC - wasn't worth my time.

None of this was going through my mind when InterCasino popped into my head - it was just the first online casino I thought of and I knew they had Bonus Video Poker so I downloaded, deposited, and was off and running.

Now, I should make it clear at this point that InterCasino has NOT intentionally screwed me over although it's possible I was lied to at one point for malicious reasons (but we'll get to that) - the incident which occurred, I believe was InterCasino's fault - they believe it was my fault. And they may be right - but my argument, and some will agree with me and some won't, is that regardless of who's fault it was, there is an OBVIOUS correct ethical play they should have made here, and an OBVIOUS correct 'smart' play they should have made here. The two plays are the same, and they should have acted in the ethical way, regardless of their motivations - because the ethical play means they get to retain me as a loyal customer, and screwing me (over a technicality I say was caused by them, but which they believe they are not responsible for) has ensured I will likely publicly lambast them for the rest of my life on every forum where such a topic comes up.

I can hear you moaning, "Ok, enough already, what happened?" - And I apologise for the preamble. What happened was actually almost lightning-strike freaky in terms of mathematics and odds. After being stuck over 10k playing max coins on JOB, I hit a Royal - got drunk and played for literally days straight I think, stopping only to sleep (maybe? lol) or watch some sports I had bets on or when friends annoyed me etc. I was on a huge upswing and gambooled my way up to almost $100,000 profit (over multiple days of wagering at max coin spins EVERY spin).

Attach Removed (Old not found)

Now, over these 5 (?) or so days of drunken wagering, from the FIRST spin, EVERY single spin I played was at MAX COIN value - I even requested a higher coin value at one point from CS but was told I had to play 50 Line to bet more (I prefer 5 or 10 Line).

When the incident occurred, I had done something like $6,000,000 in wagering - with NOT ONE SINGLE spin done at any value but MAX COIN (which is $5 at InterCasino - so $1250 spins at 50 Line). I had never varied my coin value at any point over 20,000 or so spins over 5 days and 6 million in wagering - and InterCasino will obviously back me up on this.

And prior to the incident occurring, over 5 days, the server experienced problems with connection or the game froze and I had to sometimes just go to lobby to reload game or sometimes had to close the client and reload - it was no big deal, just that it happened fairly often - however, and this is important, depending on whether you have to reload the client or just reload the game when their server has problems or the game freezes, sometimes your coin value is what you'd had it set at, but other times you have to reset it from the default 5 cent coin value. Now, I believe that if the software freezes in the middle of a hand or if connection to the server is lost in the middle of the hand, then the hand is replayed and the coin value you had previously set is retained. However, if the software freezes or connection to the server is lost in between spins, then the coin value goes to default - which is 5 cents.

Now, every single time the game froze or server connection was lost (and I got screenshots after the event just to show InterCasino examples for their tech staff and can post them here if required) - I must have been in the middle of a hand, because I honestly don't ever remember having to do all the clicks in coin value up from 5 cent to $5. Anyway, in my opinion, all of this is somewhat irrelevant.

What is relevant is that over a period of 5 days, during which I'd done something like 20,000 individual spins, totaling something like $6,000,000 in wagering - NOT ONE SINGLE SPIN WAS SPUN AT ANY VALUE EXCEPT MAX COIN.

I'd gone off to watch a Formula 1 race for a few hours (go RBR!) and, when I returned, my FIRST SPIN back I hit pat quads on 50 Line - $25,000 - thank you very much! However, my balance didn't go up - tired and drunk, I was massively confused trying to work out why until I notice the coin value is at 5c and not $5.

I wasn't worried in the slightest, I was bemused that, for the first time ever (that I could remember) the coin value reverted itself to minimum, but I called CS to explain to them what happened, and also emailed Ryan Hartley - I then continued to play for a bit until I got tired and passed out. Also, the manager's voice on the phone (as he said he'd investigate) creeped me out frankly (I got the distinct impression he was thinking "oh god, another crackpot trying to scam us" or something like that - I thought it was unprofessional, although I can only imagine the endless idiots these guys have to deal with).

I was laughing with a friend about the statistical chance of hitting the 3rd most valuable pat hand on 1:20,000 spins not made on MAX COIN - he's like "christ, that's unlucky" and I'm like "don't worry dude, once they look at logs, they'll instantly see there couldn't possibly be any angle and will instantly credit the 25k to my balance" - he's like "dude, these casinos are dodgy" - I laughed at him and explained that no casino in the world would be stupid enough to risk losing a whale like me over the most innocent of mistakes, especially when there is 0% chance of angle-shooting and also when there's a pretty solid chance the 1 spin out of 20,000 spins *not* made at MAX COIN was their fault. I explained to him that InterCasino was one of the oldest and most trusted online casinos in the world, with a reputation almost unmatched in the industry - at this point, I remembered the TLC mess for the first time and felt a pang of "hmmm" but dismissed it quickly.

As I later told an InterCasino CS rep who was (unintentionally patronising / insulting me)...if this incident had happened in Vegas, my VIP liaison would rush over and, even if I had drunkenly hit the wrong coin value button, upon a quick glance of my log history showing EVERY SINGLE SPIN (20,000 spins or so) done at MAX COIN - he would immediately credit the $25,000, apologise (even if it wasn't even remotely his or the casino's mistake) and then run off to fetch me a cocktail or whatever.

The decision: Credit the player with what he should have won or not credit? Hmmm - tough one? It's a no-brainer, for every possible motivating consideration.

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Worried that an inexperienced manager would make a stupid decision, I emailed Ryan Hartley personally just to make sure that the decision couldn't be later blamed on "lower level management" if they went that route.

Email to Ryan Hartley said:
-----Original Message-----
From: JHV [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 02:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sick travesty issue regarding account *snip*

Hi Ryan,

Shortly you will be receiving a report about a travesty I experienced playing 50 Line Jacks or Better Video Poker. The manager I spoke to on the phone was calm and professional but he told me there is an obvious process that must be followed for things like this - but I forgot to point out a few things to him and, if I did, would like to reiterate them to you personally.

Just to summarise, I've been playing on and off at InterCasino over the last 6 days it would seem. During that time, the logs tell me I've placed something like $6,000,000 in total wagers.

1. During this entire wagering process, not a single time, not even once, did I wager less than the coin max - and the logs will obviously back me up on this.

2. Your CS phone records will show a request from me to support asking for the $5 coin max to be raised for my account. The lady said she'd ask about it, but that it might not be possible for Video Poker / Slots. I don't really like 10 line or 50 line as I find them a bit boring compared to 5 Line but I played them as it allowed me to wager an interesting amount as $125 max on 5 Line was too small for me.

3. Many, many times over those $6,000,000 in wagers, I made terrible mistakes partly due to my own misclicks and partly due to the fact that InterCasino doesn't have 4 colour decks which I'm used to (I'm an online poker player) and also that it's the first casino I've played at which doesn't have Auto-Hold for big hands which I'm used to. These mistakes of mine, some financially very costly ones, were purely my fault and NEVER ONCE did I ever complain or request comps for my own errors. Mistakes were like holding obviously wrong cards or simply hitting draw whilst forgetting to Hold at all. I'm not happy about them, but complaining about my own mistakes is not my style. My mistakes = my responsibility. CS records will obviously back me up on this and a look through my entire logs (bless the cotton socks of anyone who might actually be required to do this) will show some of the terrible misclicks and mistakes I've done over the $6,000,000 in wagering, but never once complained about - although I was planning on emailing a suggestion to have AutoHold and 4 colour decks but never got around to it.

4. A number of times, friends visiting or phone or football game on or something, I've timed out and had to reload the game. Other times, the game freezes (this has happened maybe 10 times or so, not a big deal) and I have to reload the game and it replays the hand that was in progress when froze. Every single time, apart from when I had to reload the client, I never remember having to raise the coins back to my betting size. It's possible I did this subconsciously but it's just not something I ever remember having to do.

5. I'm sure you have to deal with literally thousands of angry and annoying customers, most of whom have made stupid mistakes (some of whom no doubt are out and out scammers) but I cannot see how anyone can look at my log of $6,000,000 wagering at the MAX coins every single time (never once varying bets from MAX on any game I played this whole time) and possibly see any form of angle-shooting attempt.

6. I'm nervous about including this point, as I don't want to place blame (especially when I'm not 100% sure of the particular reason I had to reload the game this time), but I'm almost certain the server lost contact and it's kind of the software / connection / InterCasino's pure fault if that was the case. I'm not pointing fingers, in any case the tech staff will be able to see whatever the cause of my reloading was when they investigate. To be honest, I can't remember why I had to reload this time, simply that I've had to reload so many times over the long hours of playing from server freezing or time-outs or whatever and don't ever remember having to click up the coins to max.

I will say this though, as I'm sure you have keylogger technology or something, if your technicians show that I clicked the coins down myself prior to this hand, not only don't worry about the 25,000 but I will pay you another $25,000 out of my balance. Seriously.

And the sickest thing is, I don't understand how the situation even happened that made the coins 5c instead of $5 and I'm too nervous to play now. I mean, $25,000 is 25,000 - but if that happened to a PAT Royal, and an unfair decision was made not to pay the $1 mil, it would be pretty much "good game" for me lol. I would never be able to gamble again.

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Anyway, I'm sure the fair and correct decision will be made as I cannot see how an issue with a player could possibly be more cut and dry - but I will wait for the investigation, tech feedback and your subsequent response.

The hand that ruined my day is below :( 15,000 or 20,000 spins at the max possible table limit and I hit a 25k payoff on the ONE time in all those spins the coin for some freaky reason is at 5c instead of $5. Surreal!

Thanks for your time.

J

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I think, the next day, safe in the knowledge that no casino in their right mind would make the horribly incorrect decision - I played on for some time and lost 15k or so. A friend of mine needed 30k on Moneybookers so I tried to withdraw some and ship him the money, but InterCasino had a 10k Moneybookers limit for w/d. I don't like limits. EVER. I don't like the reasoning for them, I don't like their existence. Unless I request a limit, or unless security requires a limit, the existence of a w/d limit 'feels' unethical to me.

I withdrew 10k for my friend and called CS to ask why there was a 10k limit - she said my account wasn't adequately security certified. I realised I'd probably never withdrawn so fair enough - even though the money is going direct to a Moneybookers in the same name with same registered email, I don't mind security procedures (within reason). She said if I sent them the required scans, the limit would be removed or raised to something reasonable or whatever. I sent in the scans. Received email back from Security saying the scans were all certified. I logged back in and my Limit is still set at 10k.

At best, my time was wasted by lazy staff. At worst, I was lied to and they had no intention of allowing me to make a reasonable withdrawal. I was annoyed but not emotional about it - I've experienced much, much worse things over 6 years of gambling and was about to experience something even more shocking.

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I received this email from Ryan's Assistant Sharon a substantial amount of time after I phoned and emailed Ryan (a day or 2 later), and I didn't like the tone of it. I expected a quick-fire investigation, seeing that 6 mil over 20,000 spins all at MAX COIN, one single spin at min coin, and a quick-fire 25k shipped into my account with an apology and request for more assistance as to the technical errors I was occasionally experiencing.

Instead, I got this dribble a day or 2 later:

Assistant's Response Email said:
Dear J,

Account Number: *snip*

I hope this email finds you well.

Your account was passed to me in order to investigate your queries further.

I have raised my questions to back office and am expecting answers within the next 24 hours in order to assist my to resolve this issue.

Just to cover some of your points below:

1) I am waiting for a copy of your game logs in order to see the pattern of your wagering.

2) I am happy to advise that we do in fact have some VIP slot games which you could try, they are more than 5 lines but you may enjoy the betting limits that bit more.

3) I will await your game logs but will make a note and follow up on your suggestion for 4 colour decks and Auto hold.

4) Out system does have an automatic reset by default when a new session starts, every time a game is launched it defaults to the set default limit for that game.

5) Again I will await you game logs

6) I appreciate your points but can only once again assure you that we do have a default on bets and this would need to be changed as required at the start of every session. I am also awaiting on a server update to determine if there were any issues.

I hope my points are not to brief and frank for you and rest assured that I will be investigating this and will get back to you as soon as I have my findings.

Kind regards

Sharon

Assistant to Ryan
Head of Customer Satisfaction
Intercasino

Firstly, when you have a player doing this much volume, you don't wait days to respond. You respond at lightning speed. I was already getting annoyed at the length of time for response, even when I was 100% sure they would make the no-brainer correct decision.

Secondly, I receive this email 1 or 2 days AFTER I had spoken to a manager who told me he would instigate the investigation immediately - and 1 or 2 days after I received an auto-response email from Ryan saying I would be contacted within 24 hrs. And she's telling me (after ALL this time, that she's just now started the investigation - ridiculous and insulting, in my opinion).

On Point 4), that's just a flat-out lie. I can recreate situations with ease where a new game is launched and the coin limit is not reset.

It is, at this point, when I thought "oh goodness, you can't get good help anymore these days" - but I still didn't think it was possible to manufacture a reason NOT to pay, even if someone hated retaining valuable whales and hated money. I just thought the service quality sucked.

I wasn't that impressed with this email (the long delay, the tone of it, the apparent lack of competence overall, etc) - so I decided to withdraw the bulk of my balance at InterCasino. Despite promising me my limit would would raised after I took the time to get ID's scanned and emailed to them, my limit was still at 10k. This kind of stuff makes me furious because, although it *could* be just an incompetent mistake, it smells of unethical behaviour to me.

A combination of a few things which really annoyed me from InterCasino like the things above and also, getting disconnected from their server when every other 20 internet-connected programs I had running remained connected at high speed - a few misclicks I made on Hold because I was tilted and annoyed (my fault, not blaming anyone for those) - but anyway, a bunch of things all triggered by InterCasino's late and insulting reaction as well as the lie about raising my MB w/d limit after I'd gone to effort to get it raised...spun me into tilt and I ended up losing about $250,000 AUD that day.

Almost FOUR days after the incident, I received this email which I thought was just about the most insulting and patronising email I'd ever received - and disgusted me on so many levels...especially her patronising consolation offer for me to join a VIP program I already knew I could be in LONG before now if I wanted to - a program I had never requested, I hadn't even requested a bonus and was playing completely without a bonus for the entire week of MAX COIN wagering - all I wanted was the money I clearly won fair and square. If you can see an angle in someone wagering 20,000 spins of MAX COIN, who has over $100,000 in play, who then wagers a SINGLE 5 cent coin spin intentionally to attempt an angle-shoot...you are probably living in a fantasy world. Regardless of what the reason was for the coin value defaulting to min, unless you're brain-dead, you credit the player with their fair and just winnings based on the fact that they've just done TWENTY THOUSAND (try counting to 20,000 out loud) spins at MAX.

But, the mistake was their fault, and I can recreate situations where her claim is proved false. When I got this email, I was almost nauseous and if my response to it is rude or insulting, I'm not sure I feel remorse in any way - to me, someone who had made tens of thousands of dollars worth of mistakes by misclicks or forgetting to Hold cards due to them not having Auto-Hold and never once complaining about them or requesting compensation....and then who simply requests his rightful winnings from a single spin where I've been victimised on a freaky single random coin value change (which I still believe is their fault)....not giving the player his obviously fair winnings is just pure (and stupid) theft. That is my opinion. And I hate thieves.

Now, the language used in her email below is just patronising, insulting and infuriating. And also some lying sprinkled in for good measure. (I will comment in BLUE throughout the email)

------------------

Sharon's response 4-5 days after incident said:
Dear John,

Account Number: *snip*


I thank you for your patience during my investigation. I am glad to see that you have used the promotion that we prepared especially for you, as I thought you could do with a bit of luck back following your recent sessions!

As to my findings, I have assessed your game play by looking in depth at your gaming logs (so you can now "bless my cottons" as you said previously!!!). I find your game play very consistent as you enter your game and begin your session at the bet amount that you select of 500 cents and you then do not alter that bet amount in the session.

I would like to confirm to you that the Intercasino software has a low margin bet default which activates at any point you are away from the game for 30 minutes. When the game is idle for 30 minutes, it will time you out and exit from the game. The only time where the bet amount would not be altered is if you have a game in play and there is a server issue or your game freezes. In this case the game would continue with the same bet amount in order to complete that game.

(Scooter comment: Yes. Whatever. The 10 times I was d/c'ed or game froze I was probably in the middle of a hand. The point is, there were MANY times where I didn't have to press the 10 clicks to raise my coin value upon reloading or returning to my game. And the real point is, who cares? Do you really think I'm trying to screw you with $6,000,000 in wagering at max for a SINGLE spin attempt at min to attempt to rip you off $1250? Are you insane?)

In your initial call to us to report this incident you state that you left the game in order to take a telephone call. My findings from the game logs conclude that you left the game at 03:01 on May 24th, this is evident by the termination code 1003 (System Timed Out). You then didn't return back to the game and start wagering again until 17:42. This confirms that on this particular occasion the system would have timed out due to you being away from the game and not due to any server problems and you would have to adjust your bet amount as you wished upon beginning your session, just as you would need to do at any time when you load the casino and start playing.

Not that I even think it's relevant, or that I care all that much - but I distinctly remember leaving InterCasino open to go watch the F1 - when I returned, I may or may not have sat down and played - but I was then on the phone for half an hour or so - her claimed times make zero sense. Unless I passed out and lost 10-12 hours without ever remembering it, those times are just not even close to correct. And not long after the incident, I slept for a long time, so a 12 hour sleep only an hour after a 12 hour sleep I don't remember? I mean, I drink a lot but that's just ridiculous. Not that any of this matters, but I'm calling her out on this as it's nonsense.

Not that it's really even relevant to whether I should get my winnings or not.



Whilst I do not wish to dishearten you or want you to believe your custom is not valuable to us, I do have to base my findings on facts and in this instance I find that your loss of potential winnings on this occasion was due to the betting limits being adjusted after you were timed out as the software is designed to do for which we cannot be held accountable. However as I said, we do value your custom and do not want this to have a negative affect on your gaming with us.

(Scooter comment: Sharon, just a little tip - if you don't want to lose whales who NEVER complain about their $10,000's of mistakes in game play, and do NEVER request bonuses or VIP programs they obviously know they're eligible for, but who simply wish to get their fair and just winnings credited - you don't screw them. Stealing money from them? Generally going to have a negative affect on their gaming with you - just a little wee tip that might help you in your *challenging* future.)

I have a great offer for you, I have bent rules and cut corners for this one! Given your game play and value as a customer, I have requested that our Platinum Club enroll you as a member. This is a VIP Club for High Value customers where you will be spoilt rotten with special high value bonuses and a dedicated customer support team. You can expect your official invitation to the Platinum Club next week. Believe me not just anyone can get into this club!

(Scooter comment: Sharon, lying to customers is wrong. It's also insulting. Don't just assume that a whale who loses huge amounts of money is retarded. So don't treat them like a retard. That actually, some would argue, makes you a bit of a retard (treating high value whales as if they're stupid.

I have a Diamond Platinum Card for Rio in Vegas. I was there a couple weeks.

Believe me, I know about VIP deals - I've run a large casino affiliate site for years. I never requested membership, I just wanted to gamble and have fun. "not just anyone can get into this club!" - Sharon, do you think I'm 8 years old? It wouldn't be VIP if just anyone could get in, would it?

And just between you and me, do you really think that I wasn't aware that $6,000,000 in wagering in a week wouldn't already qualify me for your VIP club? Don't lie and say you "cut corners and bent rules". That's a disgusting way to treat your high value players. Disgusting. Have I mentioned yet that I hate patronising liars? Disgusting.)


As a token of understanding of the frustration you must have experienced when you realised that you hadn't bet the amount you wanted when you got four of a kind, in cooperation with the Platinum Club we have prepared a bonus of $5000 for you. To receive your bonus, please enter the bonus code PHR187 in the Cashier and click on 'apply bonus code'. The $5000 will be immediately credited to your account. It is valid until 2 June at 2359 EST.

(Scooter comment: Sharon, a token of understanding that doesn't make me want to vomit would be giving me my 25k that I won. You think I was frustrated at my own retardation? No Sharon - I was not. I bet $6,000,000 over 20,000 spins ALL at MAX coin (as proven by logs) - then, almost certainly directly or indirectly your fault due to inconsistencies in how you handle default coin sizes upon returning to the game - I bet one SINGLE spin at min coin. Don't insult me with lies and tiny bonuses which have wagering requirements attached to them - as if you're doing me some huge favour as you tell me you're stealing my $25,000. That's just insulting, Sharon. Insulting.

In addition to this, you will receive a welcome bonus from the Platinum Club next week as well as the opportunity to participate in the exclusive Platinum promotions that are run throughout the month. Jesper, the Platinum Manager, has also promised that he will prepare various match deposit offers for you throughout June so that you can receive bonuses of up to $7500 in total. This makes it a total bonus amount of $12500 in addition to the $2000 you received yesterday.

Scooter comment: Sharon, I can get match deposit bonus offers at any casino in the world. The insulting has gotten out of control. Will you also promise to let me participate in various monthly promotions on the website!! Wow - why didn't you tell me I could WIN a cooking experience with a top chef plus a $15 bonus!!! OMG could you cut some corners and pull some strings and get me into this exclusive promotion?

Do you find that ANY of your VIP players respond to this kind of patronising crap? Oh, you're stealing my $25,000 that I won? But you're going to ALLOW me to get match deposit bonus offers with wagering requirements? OMG! I don't know how to thank you!!! Sigh.



We want to make sure you feel well-taken care of and appreciated despite this issue that you experienced and despite the fact that perhaps we cannot give you the answers you would like. I hope that as a Platinum Club member you will enjoy your time at Intercasino even more and experience more good luck

Best wishes

Sharon
Assistant to Ryan
Head of Customer Satisfaction (Scooter Comment: lol? I vote yes.)
Intercasino

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At this point, no one was more worthy of my fury than myself. I had continued to wager (in good faith) huge volume (and lose lots) without any doubt in my mind that anyone would be so silly as to steal money that so obviously did not belong to them and risk offending a whale.

Wagering on in the expectation I would receive my fair winnings from that single spin, I lost a hell of a lot of money from that point. I don't know exactly how much - lots. Maybe $300,000 AUD in the next few days, the vast majority at InterCasino.

Had I thought for even one second they would steal my winnings and insult me with this response, I would of course withdrawn the US$90,000 or whatever and not deposited however much I deposited after - I'm too nauseated to look at cashier history, it will make me too angry. I don't mind losing. I DO mind losing to thieves.

And I really, really mind being lied to or insulted as if I was a stupid child. That just gets at my goat.
 
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chuchu59

gambling addict
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Given your activity in $ at Inter, they are obviously stupid to have given you such an answer and offers. However, much as I disagree with their approach, calling them thieves is a bit over the top as the default to min coins has always been in place and it is rather their inflexibility that comes into question.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Honestly JHV, I've been known to make the occasional smartass comment on the forum.....but I'm being dead serious and straight here. If you truly spend and wager as much as you say you do, I really think you should stick to Vegas or landbased casinos that will treat you appropriately and with the respect that you would deserve, and obviously the respect you are looking for.

We've had these types of discussions on here before, about high rollers/whales who feel insulted, and not taken care of, at even some of the best online establishments. As much as I love 32Red, I'm not entirely sure that even they would be able to fulfill your needs. The landbased casinos give free drinks, free food, free rooms/suites, free chips and personal hosts to cater to your every whim. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to demand that. If I spent that kind of money, I'd expect someone standing by to wipe my ass for me.

If you still insist on doing the online casino thing, I will reiterate what a few others have said.....at least give 32Red a try. Discuss your specific situation with them prior to playing, find out what level of service they are prepared to offer you, withdrwawal limits (although I think 32Red's withdrawal limits are something like 120K a day), etc. If there's any casino that can offer you online, what you are used to offline, it will be them. Barring that, I'd stick to Vegas. JMO.

EDITED TO ADD: JHV, can you edit your account number out of your post? It's in the email correspondence, and may be on your screenshot as well....not familiar with Intercasino...but I think that's a casino ID in the screenie?
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
Once while I was playing $5.00 video poker at the Taj in Atlantic City, I hit a royal flush for 4K. I stupidity hit the double or nothing button by mistake in my haste to cash out. Got a "k" and called the attendant over explaining what had happened. She said their was nothing she could do for me, since it's my responsibility to understand the game. She also asked me if I would of called her over if a "2" appeared instead of a "k". She did wish me luck on my pick though. (I lost)

I think in this case for an online casino situation, you were treated fairly by all means with their response and offers.

Would you have contacted them if you drew a blank hand, and offered to pay the difference for a max bet???
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
Honestly JHV, I've been known to make the occasional smartass comment on the forum.....but I'm being dead serious and straight here. If you truly spend and wager as much as you say you do, I really think you should stick to Vegas or landbased casinos that will treat you appropriately and with the respect that you would deserve, and obviously the respect you are looking for.

We've had these types of discussions on here before, about high rollers/whales who feel insulted, and not taken care of, at even some of the best online establishments. As much as I love 32Red, I'm not entirely sure that even they would be able to fulfill your needs. The landbased casinos give free drinks, free food, free rooms/suites, free chips and personal hosts to cater to your every whim. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to demand that. If I spent that kind of money, I'd expect someone standing by to wipe my ass for me.

If you still insist on doing the online casino thing, I will reiterate what a few others have said.....at least give 32Red a try. Discuss your specific situation with them prior to playing, find out what level of service they are prepared to offer you, withdrwawal limits (although I think 32Red's withdrawal limits are something like 120K a day), etc. If there's any casino that can offer you online, what you are used to offline, it will be them. Barring that, I'd stick to Vegas. JMO.

EDITED TO ADD: JHV, can you edit your account number out of your post? It's in the email correspondence, and may be on your screenshot as well....not familiar with Intercasino...but I think that's a casino ID in the screenie?

Yep, honestly the way some of these online casinos appear incapable of "logic" in the way they treat huge whales has just shocked me.

Unless I can find an online casino worthy of my stupidity, I might just have to cure myself of my house edge retardation / addiction :(

The account number suggestion? Is that a security issue. I don't care who logs into that account lol - I have a feeling the balance is $0.00 and is unlikely to change in the future.

I might try 32Red as a number of people have suggested over the last few days, but they are Prima right? I burned a lot on Ladbrokes and Eurolinx and don't really like the Prima software, to be honest. I might give them a try anyway - if they are apparently not moronic and don't actively try to insult low-maintenance high volume whales.

I think the most annoying thing about the InterCasino is, and they will back me up, I never ONCE during that entire week of huge volume wagering requested a bonus, entry into VIP, or even complained let alone requested compensation for tens of thousands of dollars worth of mistakes made due to their software not having Auto-Hold or my drunken eyes not seeing 2-colour decks clearly (after 2 million hands of online poker 4-colour decks), or just misclicks etc. Like, they can look through my logs and SEE these hilariously expensive mistakes and how common they are.

All I wanted was money I won. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so. Apparently there is a common scam where you wager 20,000 spins at MAX coin and generate $6,000,000 in wagering, then (here is the cheeky brilliant bit) you have ONE SINGLE SPIN to wager minimum coin (lol) and then you can try to trick them into giving you a few bucks. It's a brilliant scam. I'm surprised more people aren't doing it....guess you're not all as smart as I am.

---------

To the first poster, the word "thieves" is a strong, emotive word yes. I didn't initially set out with that idea in my mind when I began writing this point, but re-reading through Sharon's insulting, lying emails just made me too furious by the end.

I won't edit out the word "thieves" and I won't apologise for it. If I dropped my wallet on the ground, and you saw me drop it, and then pocketed the wallet instead of returning it to me....would you call that theft? It was MY mistake right? I shouldn't have been so stupid as to drop my wallet, right?
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
Once while I was playing $5.00 video poker at the Taj in Atlantic City, I hit a royal flush for 4K. I stupidity hit the double or nothing button by mistake in my haste to cash out. Got a "k" and called the attendant over explaining what had happened. She said their was nothing she could do for me, since it's my responsibility to understand the game. She also asked me if I would of called her over if a "2" appeared instead of a "k". She did wish me luck on my pick though. (I lost)

I think in this case for an online casino situation, you were treated fairly by all means with their response and offers.

Would you have contacted them if you drew a blank hand, and offered to pay the difference for a max bet???

I just um...wow. I'm gonna pass on this opportunity I would normally have fun with and be totally cordial.

Please look at the wagering sizes and wagering history in my post and read up on VIP systems and players and whales and whatnot. And please re-read my points about their software inconsistencies relating to server d/c's, game freezes and time-outs.

And please note the couple times I mention how many MASSIVE mistakes I made costing tens of thousands of dollars which I never once complained about or "called an attendant over" for.

You're comparing what happened to me with a Double or Nothing showing a K situation?

My maturity levels in the tone of my response to this scare me frankly - I might be like...growing up...or something scary.

(Edit: As a genuine mistake, your situation would totally suck and I feel for you. But to call an attendant over about it is....well....'optimistic'. It's too ludicrous and common a scam they would hear complaints over - and just bad luck for you. There is no comparison between your bad luck (in drawing a K on the double, not on accidentally hitting the Double button) and what happened here with me at Inter - 20,000 spins in a row at MAX, then a single spin at min? There's no sane world where that can be an angle-shoot attempt. Do you see why?)
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
I think it fair to say that was a record post JHV, I will be billing you for the contact lenses I must now wear after reading it.

I don't think anyone can disagree that is a very strange way to do business with One of your most valued customers.
I agree the letter you received was extremely patronising, it is almost as if they wanted to lose your custom, I really can't understand it.
As you point out there is just no logic to it as it is obvious this was a genuine situation and not an angle play as you put it.

As Pinababy states and as you already know by now you would be better off sticking to B&M Casinos as the convenience and remote nature of Online Casinos obviously has some serious drawbacks when it comes to CS and the personal touch.
I am amazed that Online Casinos do not seem to have addressed this at all.
 

heatherad

Dormant account
Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
Canada
Since you've stated time and again how bored you were and lately you're not really into playing poker, I have a suggestion. :)
Why not take a total break from any type of gambling and do something totally different? Instead of wasting THAT kind of money gambling, why not pick a few worthwhile causes and donate some money there.
I'm sure the people who are starving and have nothing would benefit a great deal if you used some money to help them out. There is also the homeless, crimes against children, cancer research, or anything that would truly help out humanity.
Most times, when you do something for others it makes an astounding difference in the world. There is even great causes here on CM to donate to.
This is totally just my opinion, but you never know....spending that kind of money gambling might just take on a whole different look if you put your mind to it :)
Good luck in whatever ventures you decide to do :)
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
Since you've stated time and again how bored you were and lately you're not really into playing poker, I have a suggestion. :)
Why not take a total break from any type of gambling and do something totally different? Instead of wasting THAT kind of money gambling, why not pick a few worthwhile causes and donate some money there.
I'm sure the people who are starving and have nothing would benefit a great deal if you used some money to help them out. There is also the homeless, crimes against children, cancer research, or anything that would truly help out humanity.
Most times, when you do something for others it makes an astounding difference in the world. There is even great causes here on CM to donate to.
This is totally just my opinion, but you never know....spending that kind of money gambling might just take on a whole different look if you put your mind to it :)
Good luck in whatever ventures you decide to do :)

I have a personal aversion to pure 'charity' but I believe that good deeds should be done for those that deserve them or those who need a helping hand to get up off their feet.

Pure charity, in the sense of just giving people money, causes more problems than solutions (imo). I didn't always feel this way - for a long time, I wanted to be an Aid Worker when I was a teenager. After traveling all over the world, and seeing things most people never have the opportunity (in some cases, they don't know how lucky they are NOT to have this opportunity) to see - the horrors and abuse and cyclical dependence facilitated or directly created by handouts....I don't have the words to describe how misguided some of these well-intentioned folks are.

I also believe in lending a hand (for those who deserve it) not for pats on the back, but for the "pay-it-forward" type of positive domino effect such acts of kindness or assistance help to create. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm actively involved in such things, but to list them would feel tacky and whilst I'm the first to admit part of the motivation for helping out people that deserve a helping hand gives you a warm feeling (in that sense, an element of my charity is motivated by a kind of 'selfishness' - but I would argue there is nothing inherently wrong with this [as a motivator]), I don't think much of people who appear to do their charity in a very 'public' way and who I suspect are motivated by very dishonourable desires for public approval or exposure or whatever.

I will say that I'm a big fan of www.kiva.org - the concept and the administration. Micro-lending I can really buy into as a concept worth investing time and charitable efforts in.....

And whilst I'm not religious or spiritual in any way, I believe The Golden Rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is a great way to live your life. I'm no saint, but I try to live my life in such a way that I never harm anyone, never deceive anyone, never 'use' anyone, etc. When I'm able to, I occasionally do more.

Should I be doing a LOT more? Probably. But I can't lie - I would really only be interested in helping someone who's REALLY worth the investment - and those people (whilst probably very common) are hard to find and I am lazy.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
If you are a soccer or horse-racing fan bet with hkjc.com. It is a non-profit making organisation and donates millions to charitable causes every year. Yep, entertainment and charity all bundled together.:D
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
If you are a soccer or horse-racing fan bet with hkjc.com. It is a non-profit making organisation and donates millions to charitable causes every year. Yep, entertainment and charity all bundled together.:D

That's kinda awesome. I didn't know that about HKJC. I was wondering if you meant they donate a % of their profits to charitable / arts causes - but no, you're 100% right - after operating costs, all profit goes to the Trust.

I've never 'gotten' horse-racing. I wish I did. My friends love it - I'm usually just bored when I go. I own a greyhound pup who's cost me more than he'll ever win in 5 racing lifetimes and he's yet to race lol. He's adorable though.

For football (soccer) obv I bet on Betfair or Pinny for the lines. But I like and respect this HKJC modus operandi. Although, looking through their list of "charitable causes", the vast majority are causes that don't interest me in the slightest (not saying they're not worthy causes, just not the type of causes I'm personally interested in).
 

heatherad

Dormant account
Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
Canada
I have a personal aversion to pure 'charity' but I believe that good deeds should be done for those that deserve them or those who need a helping hand to get up off their feet.

Pure charity, in the sense of just giving people money, causes more problems than solutions (imo). I didn't always feel this way - for a long time, I wanted to be an Aid Worker when I was a teenager. After traveling all over the world, and seeing things most people never have the opportunity (in some cases, they don't know how lucky they are NOT to have this opportunity) to see - the horrors and abuse and cyclical dependence facilitated or directly created by handouts....I don't have the words to describe how misguided some of these well-intentioned folks are.

I also believe in lending a hand (for those who deserve it) not for pats on the back, but for the "pay-it-forward" type of positive domino effect such acts of kindness or assistance help to create. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm actively involved in such things, but to list them would feel tacky and whilst I'm the first to admit part of the motivation for helping out people that deserve a helping hand gives you a warm feeling (in that sense, an element of my charity is motivated by a kind of 'selfishness' - but I would argue there is nothing inherently wrong with this [as a motivator]), I don't think much of people who appear to do their charity in a very 'public' way and who I suspect are motivated by very dishonourable desires for public approval or exposure or whatever.

I will say that I'm a big fan of www.kiva.org - the concept and the administration. Micro-lending I can really buy into as a concept worth investing time and charitable efforts in.....

And whilst I'm not religious or spiritual in any way, I believe The Golden Rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is a great way to live your life. I'm no saint, but I try to live my life in such a way that I never harm anyone, never deceive anyone, never 'use' anyone, etc. When I'm able to, I occasionally do more.

Should I be doing a LOT more? Probably. But I can't lie - I would really only be interested in helping someone who's REALLY worth the investment - and those people (whilst probably very common) are hard to find and I am lazy.

I definately can't argue with that....you do have a point there! :thumbsup:
Hope your luck changes with poker playing...win big!
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
I definately can't argue with that....you do have a point there! :thumbsup:
Hope your luck changes with poker playing...win big!

Thank you - but although I running bad, I'm not going to pretend the biggest issue isn't simply that I suck (relative to field) now at my levels. And too lazy to work on improving so it's probably gg for poker for me...which is ok.

I'm a professional Video Poker player now :)
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
Online casinos just aren't set up for such a big spender.

The top VIP levels online are nothing in comparison to the value of service and free stuff you'd be provided in some land based casinos.

I'm guessing Sharon at Intercasino has never spoken to such a well-funded whale before and doesn't realise how insulting her offers might sound.

I don't think you're gonna be able to find the level of service you're looking for anywhere online tbh. You could try 32red, they are very active on this forum. They had a gross casino win of 11.7 million in 2008, so if you hit a pat RF at your stakes you'd seriously dent their yearly profit! They might be unhappy at taking on that risk in a single player.
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
After Bryan severely reprimanded me in another thread, I also re-read my comments in this one and really would like to edit out the tone of some of them.

I realise Sharon was just trying to do her job. A lot of my frustration was anger at myself for 100% believing that they would just casually credit the 25k to my account upon viewing the playing logs as the situation was just so clearly cut and dry.

I then lost a huge amount - which is ok. But, after losing all that, to then discover they were never going to pay me the 25k owed - really made me dirty at myself. Had they replied within 24 hrs and said they weren't going to pay the 25k, I would have thought them insane and immediately withdrawn all funds.

Actually, I tried to withdraw a large portion of the funds anyway but couldn't due to the withdrawal limit mess and debacle.

It was just a big slap in the face, I thought - and made me feel stupid to assume operators were all capable of thinking clearly and logically.

I guess after making so many horrendous mistakes costing myself so much money (and never once complaining about them or seeking any kind of benefit, compensation, VIP upgrade, etc) - to have this incident which I just feel has to be the most cut and dry 'dilemma' for management to ever rule on - and to be dismissed in such a manner when I wasn't even asking for any favours, just money I should have won fair and square - that just honestly blew my mind.
 

liquuid_fusion

Meister Member
PABaccred
PABnorogue
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Location
UK
To be honest, I feel like i'm being talked down to perhaps 2/3 of the time i'm in contact with online casino customer service. I'm well educated and have a strong understanding of EV and how the theory behind running a casino works, as i'm sure you do coming from an ex-advantage player and professional poker player background.

They often talk in very simple terms with lots of smilies, because i'm obviously a bit simple being an online gambler and all :)
 

bb28

Dormant Account
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Location
US
Food for thought

I want to throw something out there.......the other side of the coin so to speak. Keep in mind that this is just a scenario. Maybe some of you won't think it's the same issue at all but is it?
Say I've been playing a certain game for a long long time and I've racked up thousands of spins with a small bet, let's say $1.00 a spin. I've gotten lucky and accumulated several nice wins and a bankroll in the thousands but I've not once raised or lowed my bet, then......I hit the max bet button by mistake which raised my bet to $100.00 and I don't notice it for at least 20 spins because I'm half way watching the tube at the same time. None of the spins were winning spins at all. All the sudden I notice my balance is way, way down and I frantically begin trying to figure out what happened, it takes a few minutes but I do so I hop on chat and explain what happened hoping that will compensate me in some way because if they would just check the history they would clearly see that my bet had always remained the same up until that point. Also I should mention that I've been playing there for 2 years and I never have bet more than $1.00 a spin. They tell me not so nicely that I'm SOL and if my bet had been a winning bet that I wouldn't be on there complaining, I'd be celebrating, which of course is true.

So isn't this little scenario basically the same as the other? Isn't a bet a bet and it's either win or lose, regardless of size? Should we be compensated for failing to double check our bet size, even though it might be our screwup or even a server screwup on their end?
Doesn't the ultimate responsiblity belong to the individual regardless of bet size or win or lose?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I want to throw something out there.......the other side of the coin so to speak. Keep in mind that this is just a scenario. Maybe some of you won't think it's the same issue at all but is it?
Say I've been playing a certain game for a long long time and I've racked up thousands of spins with a small bet, let's say $1.00 a spin. I've gotten lucky and accumulated several nice wins and a bankroll in the thousands but I've not once raised or lowed my bet, then......I hit the max bet button by mistake which raised my bet to $100.00 and I don't notice it for at least 20 spins because I'm half way watching the tube at the same time. None of the spins were winning spins at all. All the sudden I notice my balance is way, way down and I frantically begin trying to figure out what happened, it takes a few minutes but I do so I hop on chat and explain what happened hoping that will compensate me in some way because if they would just check the history they would clearly see that my bet had always remained the same up until that point. Also I should mention that I've been playing there for 2 years and I never have bet more than $1.00 a spin. They tell me not so nicely that I'm SOL and if my bet had been a winning bet that I wouldn't be on there complaining, I'd be celebrating, which of course is true.

So isn't this little scenario basically the same as the other? Isn't a bet a bet and it's either win or lose, regardless of size? Should we be compensated for failing to double check our bet size, even though it might be our screwup or even a server screwup on their end?
Doesn't the ultimate responsiblity belong to the individual regardless of bet size or win or lose?


Good points, however it seems online casinos have a habit of invoking "F U Clauses" to confiscate winnings, so "a bet's a bet" does NOT always apply.

I have spotted what might be a couple of inconsistencies in Intercasino's position. They, the software, and the operators of other casinos using the same software are closely intertwined. MOST Cryptologic casinos are run by "Ecash", and Littlewoods is NOT "Littlewoods", but an Ecash casino with a LICENSE to use the Littlewoods branding. Littlewoods have now moved to the same software as 888. William Hill was the only casino that I noticed NOT using Ecash, and this was a decision made by William Hill at the time, they wanted independence from Ecash. To claim that they (Intercasino) have nothing to do with the shortcomings of the software is not something I believe. More than other operators, who merely license their software, Intercasino, who pretty much OWN Cryptologic (or it could be the other way) would have some considerable influence over the development path of the software. These player mistakes are partly down to the software, and many have complained before that they have suffered because their bet has been defaulted to an absurdly HIGH value, such as $25 per spin on a slot when the player had been playing at, say, 25c before. It is the SOFTWARE that keeps changing the coin size, whether inconsistently or not, this is NOT something it should be doing, as it only INCREASES the chance of players making errors. IF the software would just leave things as the player left them last, this thread would not even exist.

I have a problem with Crypto software messing with my coin sizes, it does seem they have decided they actually WANT to do this to their players, otherwise this feature would long ago have been corrected.

It also seems that they are rather TOO logical when it comes to dealing with the whales. They are constrained by "normal operating procedure", and can, with a struggle, only BEND the rules a little. This is NOT what is needed when dealing with a whale who loses thousands just to bide time whilst awaiting a reply from CS. The rulebook should be ripped up completely, and a dedicated VIP pampering and retention team should be in place to look after these players. Online casinos can track the minutae of our wagering, and should ALREADY have seen that they had this huge whale on their Video Poker games, and there should ALREADY have been the allocation of a dedicated, and not too busy, VIP host to this player who had the AUTHORITY to make a "goodwill" gesture worth $25,000 with a view to recouping this, and more, in under a day of $1250 VP games, not to mention what they could have made in days to come.

This is a whale this online industry seems determined to lose to the competition of the B & M casinos, who are having such a tough time of late that I would think that EXTRA special treatment awaits for the few whales that can still splash the cash.

Do online casinos even WANT the whales, perhaps they are afraid of the risk should their "whale" turn out to be a "fraudulent player", perhaps one who has embezzled the money from their bosses, and this has caused them to set ABSOLUTE limits on volume that we mere mortals never have to worry about, but that are insulting to whales prepared to throw hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of dollars around on a regular basis.

Many people who have lots of money grow to expect the royal treatment, and are even MORE offended than most of us when instead they receive substandard, even insulting, treatment instead. One only has to hear of the outrageous demands made by A list celebrities and high flyers in business to see this in action. A bunch of bankers, the lot of them:D
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
So isn't this little scenario basically the same as the other? Isn't a bet a bet and it's either win or lose, regardless of size? Should we be compensated for failing to double check our bet size, even though it might be our screwup or even a server screwup on their end?
Doesn't the ultimate responsiblity belong to the individual regardless of bet size or win or lose?

Many times while playing online, I caught myself in similar situations, of course not in the amount JHV is talking. I'm sure JHV will feel differently about this since he is a whale as far as he's concerned. And speaking of whales, in Las Vegas their are only a hand full of true blue whales. While some casinos jockey around trying to steal a whale from one another, others won't even entertain them. Whales have been known to be directly responsible for changing the casino's financial statements in one way or another. This is a very elite group...

JHV may be a whale for online poker, but the money he's talking here is just tip money for the real deal.
 

bb28

Dormant Account
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Location
US
I've enjoyed reading the replies to my little scenario and there have been some really thought provoking points said, (thanks VM).


I guess in my ideal world (in my head :rolleyes:) I'd like to think that things are more equal and it shouldn't matter if you are a whale or not in the concept of a winning or losing spin regardless of bet size, but on the other hand, I suppose if I were the whale I'd expect and want a lot of arse kissing myself.
Still I'd like to hear more opinions on my original question.


So isn't this little scenario basically the same as the other? Isn't a bet a bet and it's either win or lose, regardless of size? Should we be compensated for failing to double check our bet size, even though it might be our screwup or even a server screwup on their end?
Doesn't the ultimate responsiblity belong to the individual regardless of bet size or win or lose?
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
Many times while playing online, I caught myself in similar situations, of course not in the amount JHV is talking. I'm sure JHV will feel differently about this since he is a whale as far as he's concerned. And speaking of whales, in Las Vegas their are only a hand full of true blue whales. While some casinos jockey around trying to steal a whale from one another, others won't even entertain them. Whales have been known to be directly responsible for changing the casino's financial statements in one way or another. This is a very elite group...

JHV may be a whale for online poker, but the money he's talking here is just tip money for the real deal.

Yes and no. Yes, you are partly correct - but these things are all relative. If you have a player who's doing 5 mil a week in playthrough - you're going to get extremely rich in a short period of time, even if you never attract another player - and, assuming your one 'whale' doesn't run out of money - which is an inevitable part of the whaling process.

My wagering in the last month, whilst not in the stratosphere, is not exactly middle level either. 30 mil in turnover in a few weeks - you will be treated as high-level VIP in Vegas for much less turnover than that - MUCH, MUCH less.

I have detected a theme in some responses where people (not necessarily being critical) mistakenly assume I wish to be "spoiled". I've taken great pains to explain how this is not the case at all. All I require is ethical and competent support, pretty much.

If I wanted "frills", InterCasino would have heard from me about those frills long before the incident - probably 5 mil in wagering before the incident. They will confirm I never asked for a single thing up until that point - and I did not and do not see it as a "goodwill gesture" for them to give me my rightful winnings. I would not even have been 'grateful'. I won the money. It is mine, whether they ever give it to me or not. I am never grateful when a loan is repaid or when something that is mine is returned to me. I just expect it. Their software inconsistencies resulted in a single (ONE) spin out of something like 20,000 spins done at min coin instead of max.

They decided to use this excuse to keep my money. That is their prerogative. I think it's unethical in every way. But more importantly, I think it was a ridiculous "penny wise, pound foolish" type of decision which simply makes no sense and will just cost them money in the long run, a far far greater amount than my winnings they decided not to credit to my account.

In all honesty, I was more probably more offended by the language and tone of the response from Sharon (which very much says "we think you're stupid") than my actual winnings not being credited.

When I'm in Vegas in a few days, there will be levels of pampering and fawning which I don't appreciate. Sure, I'll take a free suite - but I don't think I've ever asked for one. They just throw stuff at you because you're worth x to them.

My behaviour is not 'logical' in terms of high volume drunken gambling ridden with costly errors at house advantage games. I'm not behaving that way so people bend over backward to assist me, I don't even like that kind of attention. However, when an injustice has occurred, I expect it to be rectified based on my wagering history - it's just common-sense, imo.

----------

I mean, obviously I have a problem. It's rare that you get someone who is 'sick' in the sense that they know all the maths and consequences of their gambling actions, and yet they continue to do it anyway.

The silver lining for me in all this, is that I've become extremely disillusioned with what I consider to be unethical treatment and bad business practice from almost every casino I've played at. And I guess I'm kind of hoping this embarrassing little house edge phase I'm going through will be cured by this very disillusionment.
 

Scooter7

Dormant Account
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
I've enjoyed reading the replies to my little scenario and there have been some really thought provoking points said, (thanks VM).


I guess in my ideal world (in my head :rolleyes:) I'd like to think that things are more equal and it shouldn't matter if you are a whale or not in the concept of a winning or losing spin regardless of bet size, but on the other hand, I suppose if I were the whale I'd expect and want a lot of arse kissing myself.
Still I'd like to hear more opinions on my original question.


So isn't this little scenario basically the same as the other? Isn't a bet a bet and it's either win or lose, regardless of size? Should we be compensated for failing to double check our bet size, even though it might be our screwup or even a server screwup on their end?
Doesn't the ultimate responsiblity belong to the individual regardless of bet size or win or lose?




1. You are responsible for knowing what your bet is and acting accordingly. 'Tough luck' is accurate (although rude) as a response to the issue presented here. There's no gray, just black and white. If Inter is defaulting to a 0.05 coin value, then I say fantastic. I've heard many complaints over time about 1.00 defaults that put you at risk of spending unintentionally. If they are correcting this, then great.

2. If the player's bets were all at 5.00 per coin instead of 0.05 (and there were 20,000 of them), this is a definite online whale that the rule in point #1 can or cannot be applied to at the discretion of the casino. If I was running the show, I would look VERY carefully at the playing history and make a decision based on that. As a former B & M supervisor, there was a defined, discretionary amount that I could make a ruling on ($200). Up to $1000 was the pit manager's call, over that was the shift manager, the director of table games, the VP Operations and then the President. Everyone had a ceiling amount that they could rule on in favour of the player when warranted.

In my opinion, if the logs back up the player's claim about betting patterns, I would look at the previous deposit and playing history and make a determination as to the potential future value of the customer and create a sticky bonus in the amount of the 'would have been' payout if I decided that I wanted this player in the house. Additionally, I would log the issue very carefully and get a confirmation in writing from the player that bet size issues are solely the players responsibility and that no further payouts would be authorized as a result of any similar sequence of events in the future. The payout would be a gesture of goodwill and not imply anything else. Also, I would include a very strongly worded piece of advice that cautions the player against over-indulging in alcohol before or during a gaming session to help reduce or eliminate playing mistakes.

That's my 0.02 worth.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Yes and no. Yes, you are partly correct - but these things are all relative. If you have a player who's doing 5 mil a week in playthrough - you're going to get extremely rich in a short period of time, even if you never attract another player - and, assuming your one 'whale' doesn't run out of money - which is an inevitable part of the whaling process.

My wagering in the last month, whilst not in the stratosphere, is not exactly middle level either. 30 mil in turnover in a few weeks - you will be treated as high-level VIP in Vegas for much less turnover than that - MUCH, MUCH less.

I have detected a theme in some responses where people (not necessarily being critical) mistakenly assume I wish to be "spoiled". I've taken great pains to explain how this is not the case at all. All I require is ethical and competent support, pretty much.

If I wanted "frills", InterCasino would have heard from me about those frills long before the incident - probably 5 mil in wagering before the incident. They will confirm I never asked for a single thing up until that point - and I did not and do not see it as a "goodwill gesture" for them to give me my rightful winnings. I would not even have been 'grateful'. I won the money. It is mine, whether they ever give it to me or not. I am never grateful when a loan is repaid or when something that is mine is returned to me. I just expect it. Their software inconsistencies resulted in a single (ONE) spin out of something like 20,000 spins done at min coin instead of max.

They decided to use this excuse to keep my money. That is their prerogative. I think it's unethical in every way. But more importantly, I think it was a ridiculous "penny wise, pound foolish" type of decision which simply makes no sense and will just cost them money in the long run, a far far greater amount than my winnings they decided not to credit to my account.

In all honesty, I was more probably more offended by the language and tone of the response from Sharon (which very much says "we think you're stupid") than my actual winnings not being credited.

When I'm in Vegas in a few days, there will be levels of pampering and fawning which I don't appreciate. Sure, I'll take a free suite - but I don't think I've ever asked for one. They just throw stuff at you because you're worth x to them.

My behaviour is not 'logical' in terms of high volume drunken gambling ridden with costly errors at house advantage games. I'm not behaving that way so people bend over backward to assist me, I don't even like that kind of attention. However, when an injustice has occurred, I expect it to be rectified based on my wagering history - it's just common-sense, imo.

----------

I mean, obviously I have a problem. It's rare that you get someone who is 'sick' in the sense that they know all the maths and consequences of their gambling actions, and yet they continue to do it anyway.

The silver lining for me in all this, is that I've become extremely disillusioned with what I consider to be unethical treatment and bad business practice from almost every casino I've played at. And I guess I'm kind of hoping this embarrassing little house edge phase I'm going through will be cured by this very disillusionment.


You DID win, but on a 5c coin. THIS is the problem. Because of this, it WOULD be a "goodwill gesture" for the casino to delete that bet, and reinstate the result with a $5 coin.

You cannot claim a "right" to the win, since for whatever reason, you wagered using a 5c coin.

In terms of retention of a profitable customer though, it would have made good business sense for Intercasino to credit the $25,000 as a goodwill gesture. I expect you would have played it back in no time, and would have continued to play after this, making Intercasino far more profit than the book cost of making the $25,000 credit.

Unfortunately, this is not Vegas, and different rules apply.
Online, your query is simply shunted to whoever is next in line at CS, whereas in Vegas you will have a dedicated host, who would have considerable authority to give you what you asked. If you asked NOT to be pampered, you would get this too.
 

JHV

<a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Location
Perennial Traveler
It's all semantics - and almost philisophical in nature. The point I'm arguing is that, due to my ridiculously consistent wagering history of tens of thousands of spins in a row (EVERY SINGLE ONE AT MAX COIN) - the decision is just a no-brainer. There is no possible angle to worry about.

But you're not wrong either. But to say that to credit my winnings from this ONE spin at min would be a "goodwill gesture" would be akin to saying that seeing an old lady drop her purse without noticing as she walked off, picking it up and returning it to her...would be a "goodwill gesture".

Oh sure, you could keep the old lady's purse. At the end of the day, it's her responsibility to make sure she is in control of her purse. But sometimes you just need to cut through all the smoke and semantics (which are fun to argue, don't get me wrong) and accept that not giving the old lady her purse is tantamount to stealing. And that not giving me my winnings on this single spin at min after such massive consistent wagering at max over such a huge sample size of 100% max, never-changing, always consistent, with not a single spin previously done in the 20,000 at anything other than Max Coin....is tantamount to stealing.

That is my position and opinion on the issue. And this would be if the fault was 100% mine, which it clearly was not. In fact, I argue very successfully that the fault is almost primarily that of the software's, in terms of inconsistencies in when the software defaults back to min.

It's all moot though. Even if you couldn't spell 'ethics', if you were smart...you wouldn't keep the winnings and risk losing your player. It just makes zero sense as there is 0.0000000% chance of angle in play AND the player won the money, it's just the software that created the discrepancy in payout.

--------

It's kinda funny. These negative experiences all stacking up on top of one another might be the best thing ever to happen to me, in terms of curing this silly vice. At the moment, especially after the Rome experience and thread, I have almost zero desire to play and am not even really looking forward to Vegas.

Which is, possibly...fantastic (long-term).
 

Scooter7

Dormant Account
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
Unfortunately, this is not Vegas, and different rules apply.
Online, your query is simply shunted to whoever is next in line at CS, whereas in Vegas you will have a dedicated host, who would have considerable authority to give you what you asked. If you asked NOT to be pampered, you would get this too.

Quite right, although your host wouldn't likely have the authority to give you what you asked. They would be familiar with your playing habits, know your theoretical value to the house, and act as an advocate on your behalf taking the situation to the operations staff that do have the power to make a ruling.

Also, assuming/hoping/sensing that this player's story is accurate, I would definitely give the player a credit (based on my previous post) as long as I thought I could keep him happy, depositing, and playing.
 
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