Resolved Rushmore- sucky rule to confiscate funds

[chuchu59]

If I may first of all correct myself, the last log in to the player's account was back in October 2007 and not October 2008.

Second of all, the player didn't have deposits sitting there which hadn't been wagered with. The player had wagered at least $100,000 with the last deposit which was made in his account before his account being left unused for 2 years.

Thanks,

Louise
Rushmore, Cherry Red & Slots Oasis Rep.

This player wagered $100,000 and you confiscated the money at your 'discretion'. What is the discretion, may I ask. He wagered a princely sum and is not a bonus abuser or anything of any sort so what are your reasons for taking his money. Again, what is the discretion you are speaking of?

 

[RobWin]

Sure - in spirit, these are his funds, but technically speaking - he's not out of pocket if those funds never hit his bank account.

I never, ever thought that I would hear this type of rhetoric (meant in classical oratory terms) coming from you Bryan, of all people! I'm sorta at a loss for all the right words after reading this thread, to say the least.

Why the Rushmore Group is still even "Accredited" here after all the threads, after threads, after threads this year regarding their cashflow issues and confiscation of funds...etc. etc. etc. just absolutely blows my mind.

This might refresh your memory about Rushmore's ethics a little more... Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) as you can clearly see how they continue to allow this rogue site to keep their banners up there. You see how long Clubworlds banners stayed there!

Bryan, IMO...you need to do some serious re-thinking on the Rushmore Groups "Accreditation" here.
____
____

 

[maxd]

I'm just going to dip my toe in here to make a couple points that I think need making:

1. Somewhere back in the thread I believe someone said something like "no point in doing a PAB (before posting) because it's clear that the T&Cs were violated".
   
   Bad assumption: casinos will often resolve issues as good-will gestures to players even though the player was in error but they usually only do this IF THE PLAYER HAS COME TO THEM FIRST, ie not made it a public issue.
   
   Of course once you post about it you're taking your chances. Most casino peeps don't like being bullied or blackmailed, go figure , so they're generally in a less giving mood once that has happened.
   
   The point being that PAB BEFORE YOU POST is generally a wise course if you really want your best chances at getting a good resolution. Once you post you're gambling that you can twist the casino peeps arm into doing what you want and that is usually a pretty lousy bet.
   .
2. Fraudsters will often leave their winnings to simmer for a while, sometimes a long while, in the hopes that the details of their doings will be lost in the fog of time.
   
   It's a tactic based on ignorance -- most play records are digital and can sit on the shelf for quite some time without going off -- but hey, they're fraudsters so what do you expect.
   
   Anyway, point is, casinos are partly fighting this issue too when it comes to the "staledate confiscation" policies.

So there it is. Just my 2.

 

[The Dude]

I never, ever thought that I would hear this type of rhetoric (meant in classical oratory terms) coming from you Bryan, of all people! I'm sorta at a loss for all the right words after reading this thread, to say the least....

Geeze - then I'll try to stop explaining things and keep my big mouth shut.

Obviously I'm being totally misunderstood here - TECHNICALLY speaking your funds are in some cyber entity - they aren't yours TECHNICALLY.

They ARE YOURS in spirit - which I guess is a bad way of explaining it. Sorry - couldn't think of anything better at the moment.

Come to think of it - just forget what I said. The more I think about it, the stupider it sounds.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not defending the casino - I'm just addressing the fact that players need to be aware of casinos' terms and conditions. That's all.

FTR - I would have expected the casino to have contacted the player.

 

[elscrabinda]

Can I also assume Bryan that as Louise has confirmed that my balance was made up of a deposit, albeit one that had been wagered many multiples of times (she makes it sound like a bad thing), that you consider it unfair of them not to have returned this amount to me?

 

[elscrabinda]

I'm just going to dip my toe in here to make a couple points that I think need making:

1. Somewhere back in the thread I believe someone said something like "no point in doing a PAB (before posting) because it's clear that the T&Cs were violated".
   
   Bad assumption: casinos will often resolve issues as good-will gestures to players even though the player was in error but they usually only do this IF THE PLAYER HAS COME TO THEM FIRST, ie not made it a public issue.
   
   Of course once you post about it you're taking your chances. Most casino peeps don't like being bullied or blackmailed, go figure , so they're generally in a less giving mood once that has happened.
   
   The point being that PAB BEFORE YOU POST is generally a wise course if you really want your best chances at getting a good resolution. Once you post you're gambling that you can twist the casino peeps arm into doing what you want and that is usually a pretty lousy bet.
   .
2. Fraudsters will often leave their winnings to simmer for a while, sometimes a long while, in the hopes that the details of their doings will be lost in the fog of time.
   
   It's a tactic based on ignorance -- most play records are digital and can sit on the shelf for quite some time without going off -- but hey, they're fraudsters so what do you expect.
   
   Anyway, point is, casinos are partly fighting this issue too when it comes to the "staledate confiscation" policies.

So there it is. Just my 2.

Max, I contacted Louise out of courtesy and only when both she and customer support made it clear that they weren't going to budge on this then I posted. I had no intention of circumventing the usual way of doing things, but I didn't want to waste your time on an issue where they were technically in the right and seemingly had no intention of using their discretion to act more reasonably.

I hope you're just making a general point about the issue of public posting because otherwise I resent the implication that I started this thread to "bully and blackmail". I didn't. Louise and customer support can confirm that I didn't threaten them with going public or anything of the sort, and you can see from my posts in this thread that the only request I have made of them is to explain the justification for doing it, other than "we're allowed to". I think the casino acted unreasonably, and I think others should be made aware of it.

 

[The Dude]

Okay - turns out you made a deposit using Click2Pay - you requested a withdrawal via a check. They emailed you back stating that they could only send you funds back to Click2pay. You never responded - and that was about two years ago.

Why did you just let this go? Do you still have the Click2Pay account? Why didn't you just request your funds to go back where they came from?

 

[Jasminebed]

One thing everyone needs to remember - these are winnings, right? Not the actual funds that the player deposited - so in other words, the player is not out of pocket.

I would consider this unfair if the casino wiped the account clean and included deposited funds, but from what I can tell, this didn't happen.

Without wanting to be facetious, how do you end up with "1 or 2 thousand" in your account without depositing? I guess I could have received a no deposit bonus (I didn't) but I'm not sure why you jumped to that kind of conclusion? I honestly can't remember how I won there, chances are there was a bonus involved, but it most definitely included deposit(s).

Well, I believe once a player has won funds, and adhered to the terms of any bonus taken, those funds ARE theirs. Otherwise, every PAB for XYZ casino has not paid me would be dismissed as the money didn't hit your bank account (or ewallet) it wasn't really yours. Since the casino admits to play in excess of $100K, it seems playthrough requirements were probably met, and even if not, the player should have their account reactivated so they may continue to play.

I do read terms and conditions for Casinos I play at. While I may not always recall the finer details of these terms, I read them carefully.

I went and checked Buzzluck's terms regarding inactive or dormant accounts.

If an account remains inactive for a period of 30 months or more, Buzzluck has the right to deactivate said account and seize funds. In the eventuality that a request has been made from the account holder to return the available funds, Buzzluck will reactivate the account and reload funds as they were originally, providing that no fraudulent activity has taken place.

While it may seem reasonable that a casino may seize funds after a period of time, I believe they have an obligation to return them upon request.

I would hope that monies forfeited to the LGA would offer an avenue for players to recover funds from the governing body, less a reasonable sum for fees.

I've asked Inetbet also to provide me with a link for their policy.

32Red makes no mention of any policy regarding inactive accounts, so I didn't agree to seizure there.

From 3Dice's Terms of Service:

In compliance with terms and applicable law, when your account is closed or terminated, you will be entitled to the returnable funds in that account, less deduction of eventual processing fees.3DICE.COM reserves the right to refuse or cancel your registration and/or account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to you. Any balance in the account at the time of such cancellation will be credited to your credit card or other financial instrument,and/or sent to you by check to your registered address.Notwithstanding the aforementioned and without limiting other remedies 3DICE.COM reserves the right to void any winnings and to withhold any balance in your account where 3DICE.COM determines that you have breached any of these terms,where suspicion of evidence of manipulation of 3DICE.COM financial system or of your or another customers account arises, if 3DICE.COM has grounds to believe that you are using the site for purposes other than those for which it was intended,committing any offense, or if your actions may cause legal liability for you, other users or for 3DICE.COM.

If there is no activity in your account for a period of 180 days, 3DICE.COM may consider your account to be inactive. 3DICE.COM will close your account due to inactivity after 180 days.

Rushmore made no efforts to pay this player (which, due to the OP's failure to return the necessary ID documents, they IMO were not obligated to).

Many casinos I've joined have the right to refuse WINNINGS if ID documents are not provided, but that does not give them the right to retain deposits as well. And this is not the basis of Rushmore's refusal to pay the player their funds, but a SEIZURE and FORFEITURE of a dormant account.

This thread made me go check the Terms and Conditions at the casinos I am a regular depositor at. I've read threads here at CM before about dormant accounts and the fees some places charge, so it is a clause I look for.

Inactive accounts can happen for many reasons. And to simply seize funds as "It is in our terms and conditions" is not valid. I know I have read, and probably joined, casinos where amounts under $1.00, and possible even under $10.00 will not be returned, but we are not talking a few cents forgotten.

 

[elscrabinda]

Okay - turns out you made a deposit using Click2Pay - you requested a withdrawal via a check. They emailed you back stating that they could only send you funds back to Click2pay. You never responded - and that was about two years ago.

Why did you just let this go? Do you still have the Click2Pay account? Why didn't you just request your funds to go back where they came from?

Thanks for the info. As it was a long time ago, the details are not fresh in my mind so i don't know why I would have done this. Indeed I can think of no reason why I would have done this other than a c2p withdrawal not being allowed through the cashier. I try to avoid cheques in general and much prefer c2p/neteller. My email account has no record of this- just the usual request for utility bills etc which I put off and put off until I forgot about it.

I've checked my C2P records from around that time and see that I made over $3000 of deposits in the few days that I played there. Out of interest, what was my balance before my account was closed? (p.s. I realise I'm not going to win many friends by my apparent carelessness and forgetfullness with large amounts of money, but please don't hold that against me)

 

[maxd]

Max, I contacted Louise out of courtesy ... I resent the implication that I started this thread to "bully and blackmail".

You guys gotta chill a bit! My post was completely general, not directed at anyone in particular. Just trying to get the word out on these things because false impressions can really ruin OTHER people's issues.

Yeesh.

 

[suzecat]

If you don't like them - don't sign up.

Sounds good to me! The confiscation of the OP's balance could end up costing this casino much more than it gained, IMO.

 

[Pulver]

Well, we're not lawyers - never claimed to be, and this is a common term that's posted in most terms and conditions. Hell, the casinos licensed in Malta turn the winnings over to the LGA after 180 days

When you sign up at an online casino, you agreed to the terms. It's your responsibility to abide by them whether you think they are fair or not. If you don't like them - don't sign up. It's pretty simple

You are right on that one. I don't like the course Rushmore is heading with all these crap rules and lousy customer service. I have therefor decided to unistall Cherry Red, Rushmore and Slots Oasis from my computer.

 

[denamoutz]

i was thinking about making a deposit at Rushmore, but because of this i won't!!! I know what it states in the T&C's but if they can't work with the customer, what other kind of problems would there be if i had a problem with them? Would they treat me this way also?

 

[Jasminebed]

Just to update my earlier post, I received the following response from Inetbet:

We have one clause that we have on dormant accounts, which I have copied below for you.
I would mention that in 11 years we have never envoked this once, neither has any account ever been closed for inactivity or funds removed.
I hope this assists.
Kind regards
CSR Alan



j. If you do not log onto your Casino account for a period of 180 days, any balance in your account will be placed under review, subject to aditional information being obtained by iNetBet. (Balances may be zeroed or accounts closed).

 

[uungy]

They may be sticking to their terms, but the term is completely rogue, and fit for the Crystal Palace group

By the way, they have another term in their terms and conditions rushmorecasino.com/TermsAndConditions

Player shall not participate in the Games, open, use or reuse an account, enter the Web site, or the Casino, nor accept any Prize if Player does not fully understand, agree to, become a party to, and shall abide by, without exception, all rules, regulations, terms and conditions contained herein and as such rules, regulations, terms and conditions may change periodically.

This means that they can simply void anyones play, and knowing them, they will do it, if you cant prove "beyond and doubt" that you have read the terms.

They deserve to go into the deep dark pit IMHO, for the simple fact that they actually implement it!

 

[funeral979]

Why the Rushmore Group is still even "Accredited" here after all the threads, after threads, after threads this year regarding their cashflow issues and confiscation of funds...etc. etc. etc. just absolutely blows my mind.
____

My feelings exactly! Unanswered questions about the delays of payments, asking players to cancel ewallet withdrawals and request them via check, baffling change of terms in regards to Moneybookers/Neteller bonuses, and now this??

I cannot recall ever seeing an accredited casino with so many negative threads within such a short span of time. And yet the powers that be feel this group still deserves to be accredited.

Simply because the casino is "within their T&C's", doesn't really cut it, IMO. Is a casino really "accredited" if it is just meeting the minimum standards? Is this what is considered the elite in the industry now? If I came here and was looking for a great accredited casino to play at, I would think the ones listed in the accredited section would go "above and beyond" for the customer, not look for little terms and clauses to screw the customer or delay payments as long as possible. I would think we hold these casinos to a higher standard than this

 

[silcnlayc]

I just happen to think that a casino that does this kind of thing will also not think twice about other imo unscrupulous behaviour

But it was on the up and up, no doubt about it. You cannot have it both ways. They either went agains their T&C's and pulled a fast one and were unscrupulous or they follwed their T&C's to the letter which you agreed to and was up front about it.

An email would have been a good gesture but it doesn't even include that in the T&C's.

I feel awful about it if indeed it was your own monies, but how does one just "forget" they have a few thousand lying around for MONTHS? Any gambler knows where their monies are at any given time (this does not include "surprise" bonuses that are tossed in every once in while)

What is it that isn't being told??

.

.

 

[zebedy]

The moral of the story is everytime you finish your session at a casino, cashout that way they cant inplement the rule,
in the long run if people do that it will probably cost the casino more in processing fee's,

i

 

[The Dude]

I think that some of us need to chill out. This issue is hours old, and I'm waiting to get in contact with the operator to find out exactly what happened. It's a bit premature to bring out the torches and pitchforks - and I don't appreciate some of the comments and assumptions that are surfacing here.

Please exercise a bit of patience and objectivity before jumping to conclusions and making accusations. Thank you.

 

[uungy]

But it was on the up and up, no doubt about it. You cannot have it both ways. They either went agains their T&C's and pulled a fast one and were unscrupulous or they follwed their T&C's to the letter which you agreed to and was up front about it.

An email would have been a good gesture but it doesn't even include that in the T&C's.

I feel awful about it if indeed it was your own monies, but how does one just "forget" they have a few thousand lying around for MONTHS? Any gambler knows where their monies are at any given time (this does not include "surprise" bonuses that are tossed in every once in while)

What is it that isn't being told??

.

.

can I quote you you have posted previously

I am so disgusted at this time with many of these casinos in how they treat players.

I decided to go back to Grand Hotel and give them another try after a short hiatus from them and won a few dollars and made a withdrawal on the 22nd of July. I received a congratulations on the 23rd saying all was approved and I should recieve my funds within 24 hours.

Well, it is now the 26th, (withdrew on the 22nd) and I call their phone help and I get such a runaround from this girl that she sounded like she had no clue what in the world she was trying to tell me, and all the reasons she threw at me why I wasn't paid yet made absolutley no sense whatsoever.

The worst explanation she gave was that I had to fill out these forms and documents to verify something for eCogra stuff etc etc...I never made sense out of it and finally said I will be emailing the casino rep once again (third time) to find out why they gave me the time frame when it wasn't true at all. I now see that there has been no rep online since the 15th of July. Hopefully someone will let me know what in the world is going on.

Why do these casinos treat players with such disdain? Even the accredited ones are becoming somewhat off color it seems.

This seems the exact case here.

It may be in the terms, but come on, this is an abusive term for an accredited casino. Implementing it, IMHO, is rogueness at its highest order

 

[The Dude]

The moral of the story is everytime you finish your session at a casino, cashout that way they cant inplement the rule,
in the long run if people do that it will probably cost the casino more in processing fee's,

i

According to the casino, the player did cashout - but with the wrong method. The casino contacted the player (or at least attempted to) and the player never responded...and for some reason, he forgot about this issue for two years.

So my gut feeling says that there is more to this story than what has been explained here. You just don't forget about a casino account that has a large cashout pending for two years. Is it only me who finds this strange??

Some of you need to pause and ask yourself "why?" In the meantime, I'll wait for a response from the operators to find out what exactly had happened.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Surely this was a "reserve the right" term, not an ABSOLUTE "we will do" term, therefore we would expect the circumstances to play a part. Such a draconian term is meant for those EXCEPTIONAL cases where, despite best efforts, the customer has proven impossible to contact, and has made no contact themselves.

Clearly, Rushmore ALWAYS invoke this term as a matter of routine, proven by the fact that Louise writes of it being a done deal.

Surely, if Rushmore's position was that the player should have requested the withdrawal back to Click2Pay, shouldn't they have just gone ahead and done this.
Other casinos will allow the selection of a preference, but they will go ahead and use another method, usually back to source, if this suits them WITHOUT the need to go back to the player.

iNetBet, along with others, also have this kind of term, but iNetBet really DO use it as a "reserve the right", and it seems that circumstances have to be pretty exceptional before this term is invoked, as in 11 YEARS, iNetBet have NEVER had to.

Given that other accredited casinos have been taken to task over unfair terms, such as the Palace Group with their "can't bet more than x% of CURRENT balance", which they then changed to something more reasonable, surely Rushmore, as an ACCREDITED casino should be required to adhere to certain standards, and these should be based on contract law for CONSUMERS, not businesses.

Such a term would be UNENFORCEABLE in the UK, as money unclaimed by a customer CANNOT simply be seized for the benefit of the company, there must be efforts made to repatriate the funds. The ONLY thing that a company could justify would be it's administrative costs in tracing the customer, and returning the funds.

A fair CONSUMER term for dormant accounts would be along the lines of the Intercasino variant, where a monthly fee is charged against the balance for accounts considered dormant.

As for the LGA, I believe this requirement ENSURES that casinos cannot simply help themselves to dormant funds, the LGA holds on to them, and the player would have to contact the LGA for their return. In the end, if funds are never claimed (it depends upon the definition of "never"), they will go to the Maltese Government.

Despite this poor behaviour from Rushmore, it was really silly of the player to simply let it go considering the alleged amount of money involved. I would get pretty impatient after a week or two, let alone 6 months of not seeing my money after requesting a withdrawal.

 

[silcnlayc]

uungy:can I quote you you have posted previously

Quote:
I am so disgusted at this time with many of these casinos in how they treat players.

I decided to go back to Grand Hotel and give them another try after a short hiatus

This has nothing to do with the other except for the fact that I did go on a short hiatus from them, NEVER leaving a dime in the account knowing I was stopping my play there for a while.

I would get pretty impatient after a week or two, let alone 6 months of not seeing my money after requesting a withdrawal.

Exactly. So why was the money not followed for almost 2 years??

I still find some of the casinos treating players unfairly, badly and against good will, but something is not adding up here. It does not feel right . .

This seems the exact case here.

Not quite, but I see the similarity that you are trying to make. Grand Hotel pulled the delaying tactic which I know some do, that borders on haughtiness....but does not equate to rogueness, just a pain in the buttness.

.

 

[Jasminebed]

There could be many reasons a player would "forget" such a sum. Certain illnesses, medications or drugs can impair cognitive function. Catastrophic life events can push even important issues totally aside. What may seem a very large sum to you or I may not be so much so for another player. If you are playing multiple casinos and don't keep careful track, you might not realize a withdrawal was not processed as requested.

If, after reinstating the player's funds, and appropriate documentation is received, the casino wishes to conduct a fraud investigation, that is their perogative.

But the OP is a long time member, with many posts here. She did not come looking for funds to be returned, but merely to advise us of the dormant account terms and implementation of those terms in her case.

 

[The Dude]

...
Despite this poor behaviour from Rushmore, it was really silly of the player to simply let it go considering the alleged amount of money involved. I would get pretty impatient after a week or two, let alone 6 months of not seeing my money after requesting a withdrawal.

But we're talking two years here, not just six months...