Roguish Tradition Casino and likely all Rival casinos are Rogue. All Evidence shown here.

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
I've been holding off on publicising this issue partly out of kindness to Rival / Tradition on the very small chance they deserved the benefit of the doubt - and also partly out of deference to Vegas Regal who I previously considered to be one of the good guys, and I did not want the fallout from a likely rogue Rival casino to hurt the good Rival casinos in the way the RTG scandals hurt some very ethical RTG casinos a few years ago.

All my kindness, patience and concerns were unjustified. I have kindly and politely presented my turning cheek to be slapped by them over and over and over and they have obliged. The final straw was my delay in making the evidence of the stunning incidents public waiting on a response from Nicholas [VRC] who requested evidence if the issue "was really as bad as I claimed". I sent him that evidence reiterating that if there was likely to be negative fallout from Tradition's rogue actions, he should please let me know and it would temper all my actions from that point. I do not believe the innocent should suffer with the guilty - and it was my main concern to protect Vegas Regal and other seemingly ethical Rival casinos.

Those concerns were foolishly naive. In gratitude for my kindness, Nicholas did not respond to receipt of the screenshots, instead choosing to thank me by bonus-banning me on VRC [despite a playing history that includes MASSIVE action without any form of bonus included - splashing around on all games including Slots often with no bonus at all]. Thanks Nicholas - it is always wonderful to be slapped when you show someone undeserved kindness.

I am now forced to release all the evidence of Tradition / Rival rogue behaviour and incompetence. And I release this all not in vindictiveness, but with a measure of genuine sadness / despair.

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Over 4 days ago, I was playing Blackjack on Tradition casino for the first time [only the 2nd Rival casino I have tried and purely on recommendations in a thread here on CM - prior to this Vegas Regal had always behaved ethically and I was an ardent fan of theirs until a few hours ago]. I play very fast and I make a lot of mistakes but I play for fun. At one point in the session of lightning fast Blackjack play, I am stunned to notice a Blackjack is sitting there in front of me underpaid at 1:1 instead of 3:2.

I decide I must have entered some exotic variant of Blackjack and I check the rules. Nup, clear as day, Blackjack paid at 3:2. I immediately stop playing and contact Support to inform them there is a bug which is underpaying Blackjacks.

Here is the first Chat Transcript [there will be tiny editing here and there for Chat's and emails but purely to make them more readable as I type fast and ramble - I have the originals to all and can deliver them if required to prove any edits made purely for aesthetic reasons] - [also comments inserted by me now are in BLUE]:

Tradition / Rival Live Chat said:
All operators are currently assisting others. Thanks for your patience. You are currently placed in queue number 2. The average wait is 27seconds. An operator will be with you shortly.

You are now chatting with 'Ray'

Me: Hi Ray

Ray: Welcome to Casino Tradition Live Support. How may I assist you?

Me: I was just paid even money on a Blackjack

Me: haven't seen that before ...

Me: my last wager. i just stopped obviously

Ray: May I have your Login name and email address please?

Me: [my login name] [my email]

Ray: One moment please.

[2-3 min go by....]

Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.
I am confused by the fact he just killed the chat after a few minutes of looking. I obviously open up another Chat box immediately:

Tradition / Rival Live Chat said:
All operators are currently assisting others. Thanks for your patience. You are currently placed in queue number 1. An operator will be with you shortly.

You are now chatting with 'Susan'

Susan: Welcome to Live Support. How may I assist you?

Me: hi Susan i just was on chat with Ray and was disconnected very strangely

Me: um i've just been paid even money on a blackjack

Me: Ray got my details which are [my username] [my email]

Susan: May I have your Login name and email address please?

Me: he seemed to have a look then logged out

Susan: One moment please.

[15 min go by....]

Susan: Is there a specific question I can help you with?

Me: are you serious?

Me: i've just been paid even money on a blackjack

Me: what have I been waiting for 15 min for?

Susan: I am sorry for the delay.

[5 min go by...]

Me: Is it just me or is everyone acting very very strange?

[5 min go by...]

Me: okay i've been waiting quite a while

Me: are you there?

Susan: What do you need help with?

Me: you're not serious?

Me: I

Me: was

Susan: As I am not understanding what you mean

Me: paid

Me: EVEN MONEY

Me: on

Me: a

Me: Blackjack

Me: which should be 3:2

Me: my last wager made

Me: which i think we both know you've been investigating all this time?

Susan: Let me check this for you.

Me: thanks - but what have you been checking for the last 25 minutes?

Susan: One moment please.

Susan: Thank you for holding.

[5 min go by....]

Me: ?

[5 min go by...]

Susan: My supervisor has just reviewed your play, and your game was paid out correctly.

Me: i have a screenshot that says it wasn't

[this was a bluff for the reason you'll see in the screenshot below]

Me: are you saying i didn't get a blackjack last hand?

Me: If you have a winning hand but not a Blackjack, you are paid out at odds of 1:1 on your original wager.

Me: what's my card values for my last hand?

[5 min go by...]

Me: hello?

[5 min go by....]

Me: ok what's going on?

Me: i've been on live chat for almost an hour

Susan: Thank you for holding.

Me: Are these automated messages i'm getting? the "thank you for holding" ones?

Susan: Thank you for holding.

Susan: We will forward to the technical department for your last hand payout to be reviewed.

Me: what does that mean exactly?

Susan: As soon as it has been looked into you will be notified by email.

Me: you've changed your mind about whether it's a blackjack or not?

[5 min go by.....]

Me: can I get the courtesy of some responses to my questions please?

Susan: My supervisor has looked into it, and will forward it to check if the payout was correct or not.

Me: i've patiently waited for an hour

Me: yes but before you said it wasn't a blackjack

Me: now you're saying you need to send it for technical analysis

Me: picture / ace = blackjack - how is this complicated?

Me: can't you credit the shortfall and then send it for "technical analysis"?

[5 min go by....]

Me: i'm sorry Ma'am - are you even there?

[5 min go by....]

Me: are you just ignoring me? or not actually there at the console?

Susan: we would suggest you to stop playing at the time, and wait for our support team to contact you back on this.

Me: ok that sounds reasonable - can I please bother you for an answer to my question though?

Me: about it not being a blackjack, and now it needs technical analysis?

[5 min go by....]

Me: alright that's been over an hour for me waiting patiently, I guess that's a question that I won't be getting an answer to...thanks for your assistance, I'll wait to hear from the technical department

Susan: i am sorry, this is what my supervisor has advised me.

Me: in case they are also confused, the simple rule i use is Ace + 10 value card. can't go wrong

Me: I understand your position. but i'm not the enemy. obviously...but it's cool

Me: i'll wait to hear from you - have a good evening

Susan: Thank you for understanding.

I have not seen a Live Chat that bad before. And predict perhaps there is a challenger to the Rome Live Chat of "I soooo likkeee youooo" weirdness.

I am quite concerned by this stage as by the time I was finished checking the rules to ensure I wasn't playing some exotic variant, a betting instruction box had concealed the Blackjack hand meaning I had no evidence if they came back with an attempt at lying just like they had done in Chat.



As they had tried to blatantly lie to me about the result of the hand in Live Chat, I was legitimately very worried they would respond with another attempt at lying - and I had no hard evidence apart from the very embarrassing 180 degree about-face the minute I claimed to have a screenshot as evidence.

About perhaps 5 or so hours, the fact that the cards were conveniently [no doubt coincidentally] concealed above was starting to concern me. So I went about trying to reproduce it if I could. It took only a few hands and I gasped to see another one - and I wondered in nausea how many underpayments had occurred when I'm smashing through hands at a rate most people would think only possible for some kind of robot [and I can YouTube myself doing it if no one believes this]. I was nauseous at that fact, but relieved that I now had a screenshot should they try to lie again.



After I think 10-15 hours where no one contacted me as promised [I assumed it would be their absolute No.1 priority to address such a bug - if indeed it was a bug - and shut down the game until it's fixed]. I opened up Tradition to ask for an update and was flabbergasted to see the Blackjack game was still open and in full operation with god knows how many players playing on a game I had kindly informed them was underpaying so many hours ago.

Angry at the thought of people getting ripped off by a game that should have been shut down INSTANTLY, I opened Live Chat for a third time to try and impress upon them their need to stop screwing around with this:

Tradition / Rival Live Chat said:
All operators are currently assisting others. Thanks for your patience. You are currently placed in queue number 1. An operator will be with you shortly.

info: You are now chatting with 'Albert'

Albert: Welcome to Casino Tradition Live Support. How may I assist you?

Me: Hi Albert

Me: um there's a pretty serious problem with your blackjack game i reported many many hours ago

Me: i was told someone would contact me, just wondering why it's taking so long?

Me: Blackjacks are being paid at 1:1 when of course they should be paid at 3:2

[5-10 min go by....]


Me: oh not you as well

Me: everyone just goes silent and starts lying to me, when i'm trying to help

Albert: May I have your Login name and email address please?

Me: [my username] [my email]

Albert: One moment please.

[5 min go by...]

Me: Update pls?

Albert: Thank you for holding.

Albert: Our records indicates that this issue was already forwarded to our casino Promotional Department for further reviewing. You will be emailed as soon as your issue has been reviewed.

Me: Yea, I'm gonna ask for a bit more teamwork as I'm helping you out there

Me: so no "as soon as" with no set time...need some more definitive responses and that

Albert: Your will be contacted as soon as possible depending on the current queue of pending cases to be reviewed. Usually during the next 24 hours.

Me: you have a lot of issues as serious as this?

Me: Why is the game still open for customers?

Albert: Unfortunately we cannot provide an exact time frame in which it will be reviewed.

Me: I guess my point is WHY ISN'T EVERYONE REVIEWING IT RIGHT NOW?

Albert: Your will be contacted as soon as possible during the next 24 hours.

Me: you know what I mean?

Me: okay

Me: thanks Albert.

Albert: You are very welcome.

Me: I'll take my turn behind the more serious issues than underpayment in a game

Me: Good night.
A very long period of time passes with zero attempts at contact from Tradition Casino or Rival. When I finally get an email from Tradition, only to discover they don't even mention the incidents or the fact that the game is still open and underpaying, I was stunned:

Tradition Casino email said:
Dear [Me]

Regarding your security documents.

We would like to inform you that we have received your documents, however, we are still missing a copy of the signed faxback form.

Thank you for understanding.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Sincerely,
Tradition Casino Customer Service
My politeness in my reply to the above is really quite surprising to me reading it now:

My Email reply to the above said:
Yes I made a note in my ID docs email that it will take me some time to buy a printer / scanner / fax for my condo or take the form out to print / scan / send - I'm very lazy and it's pretty low on my priority list.

What should be VERY HIGH on YOUR priority list is a response for my underpayment on Blackjack 2 days ago. Which I was promised an explanation for "within 24 hrs" after the manager panicked initially and told the CS agent to lie to me in a very ill-advised attempt to deceive me and cover up the incident. I realise that he panicked and foolishly butchered the attempt at deceit and everyone is allowed the rare mistake - but it would be very unwise to repeat that mistake after I've turned my other Christian cheek after being slapped.

I would suggest you get jumping on that issue pronto. And by pronto, I literally mean PRONTO. I am a very reasonable man, but there are limits to my cheeks and to my patience when I have turned cheeks. I am sure that you dig.
They did not. Dig. Some long period of time passes without any incoming contact from Tradition or Rival and I am now 100% certain that something very shady is going on. And my thoughts turn now to how I should handle release of such info when doing so will undoubtedly and unfairly damage "innocents" like Vegas Regal [who had done nothing but behave ethically until a few hours ago].

I decided I would PM Nicholas [VRC] with my concerns about potential damage to "the good guys using Rival software" and await his advice. Nicholas I am sorry for posting PM's but I am also sorry that my overt kindness and empathy was repaid in such a shocking way. I am also sorry that I cannot see how the situation can be other than a huge internal mess at Rival which affects all Rival casinos to the point of being rogue. It's just devastatingly sad more than anything else.

My initial PM to Nicolas Johnson said:
Hi Nicolas,

I'm messaging you as I was about to post a thread about an incident that occurred at Tradition which I just don't know what's going on anymore. I also play a lot at VRC which was my first ever Rival, and only last week deposited into Tradition for first time on a recommendation.

I wonder if you might already be aware of this incident if VRC and Tradition share the same CS - it's all a bit confusing for me. All I know is posting what happened may damage Rival casinos unfairly if the incident was just Tradition doing something sketchy? I honestly just don't know how / what is possible or what feasible explanation could be given for what happened and for the CS behaviour from the instant I politely reported it.

To keep it in really general terms, timeline:
[description of the incidents to that point]

That was 40-50 hrs ago I think. I've not only heard nothing, I got slightly annoyed when Tradition turned around and emailed me a request for faxback form in a tone that implied I should "hurry up and send it". I fired back saying it was low on my priorities but what should be VERY high on their priority list should be contacting me about this under-payment issue.

No response.

I think that was 12 hrs ago or so, maybe longer. No one is interested in talking about it after I was initially lied to. Um, I don't know what to do with this - as VRC has been very good to me both allowing me to get lucky and also a pleasant experience with some good fun - I thought it would maybe be unfair to just launch this all over a forum, particularly as the Live Chat so clearly shows her lying to me and then immediately changing her tune when I bluff about the screenshot - it looks really really bad for her. And I guess for Rival - hence my nervousness not to do anything which might be unfair to good people, or something. I don't really understand all this stuff.

I can send evidence of all the above to you if you need it for any reason - are you interested in an incident like this? Any suggestions / requests / advice? I dunno lol - I never seen anything like this before

[my name and usernames on VRC and Tradition]
PM reply from Nicholas said:
Hi [my name],

My suggestion is to email the Tradition casino manager. I think she might be on this board. She is very kind and helpful, I'm sure she will get to the bottom of this.

I wish I could help, but given that I have no access to know what is going on at Tradition, my hands are tied.

Do let me know what happens. If this is as bad as you describe, I'd really like to know what is done, and how!

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
I was slightly disappointed in this response as I don't really have a huge problem - I am not a 'victim' here - I was very much worried about VRC being a victim if I posted the evidence of Tradition / Rival's shocking behaviour. But I realised for all Nicholas knew, I could just be a quack and let's face it, I'm making some pretty shocking allegations which would appear unlikely to an objective listener. Still, I would have thought he would show more concern about protecting VRC and get proactive to protect his brand. I decide to send him the evidence so he knows that something serious is going on.

In the meantime, furious that I've deposited into YET ANOTHER ROGUE CASINO and furious with the sheer blanket of silence in response to my continued polite requests for information to the point where I'm almost flirting with unethical behaviour in not publishing the evidence, I log on to my Tradition account to get more screenshots and burn away the [obviously worthless due to Tradition being rogue] accessible balance. I lose the $1000 in a few hands and only see one spot which is messed up - no Double option offered when I split 7's:



My 2nd and final PM to Nicholas said:
Hi Nicolas,

Thanks for the reply. My not-insubstantial patience has been worn down to zero by their continued refusal to discuss the incidents or apologise for lying to my face when I reported the first one. I guess they're just hoping the whole thing blows away without discussion, but I have some incredibly valid questions that I would like some answers to which are being ignored repeatedly and I must now get those answers at the expense of Tradition's reputation for continuing to lie to me and slap my face over a number of days when I was going out of my way to give them the benefit of the doubt.

NicolasJohnson said:
My suggestion is to email the Tradition casino manager.
If she is doing the job she should be doing, unfortunately she's been the one directing her staff to slap my face.

If she is unaware of what's been going on, then she's either a) incompetent or b) a figurehead [and I have no interest in conversing with either].

fwiw, after the initial bold-faced lie to my face on Chat, I have warned them numerous times to stop slapping my face but they just keep on slap-slapping away and insulting my intelligence [which I admit is less-than-noteworthy but definitely potentially functioning - on a good / sober day sigh].

I won't be contacting them anymore with my face turned to one side asking for a 9th or 10th slap. They just want to shoot themselves in the foot and I shall now oblige them. My one concern was potential fallout on the good guys like VRC [the payment complaints are over the top imo - you're doing a great job and run an excellent online casino, and I'm not just saying that cause I win there instead of doing my ass like everywhere else] but I shall keep this concern [potential fallout on good Rival casinos] at the forefront of my mind when posting on forums.

[all screenshots and live chat evidence to that point]

I dumped the rest of my accessible balance on Tradition last night trying to get more underpayment screenshots as - frankly - I considered them Rogue and the money good as gone and was furious / tilted by their continued ignoring / insulting when I was clearly going out of my way to give them benefit of doubt and help them. I hate ingratitude. And I hate being lied to by others for their gain.

I have no real incentive to continue to bash my head against the wall of their continued rudeness / insults / ingratitude - I'm not vindictive but I haven't been treated this badly since I moronically played on a Virtual casino very drunk one day and I'm in no mood to let Tradition off the hook - but if there is potential negative fallout for VRC, pls let me know and it will temper my actions from this point.
Nicholas never responded to my submitting all of the evidence to him with the kind offer of being sympathetic to any concerns he may have about unfair negative fallout on his brand. He thanked me by bonus-banning me on Vegas Regal Casino.

Thank you Nicholas. That is one effective way of shooting yourself in the foot when a friend attempts to assist you.

After 3 days of ignoring me whilst I attempt to help them and ask politely for explanations as to the errors themselves, the initial attempt to lie to me, and why they keep the game open when it's so obviously underpaying, I finally receive this insulting response from Tradition Casino - their FIRST mention of the incident since it first occurred and was reported to them:

Tradition Casino email said:
Following up on your chat with live help.

We have added 100.00 to cover the incorrect payout for the hand.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Have a nice day.

Sincerely,
Tradition Casino Customer Service
At this point, my ability to be shocked by this whole thing was reaching it's climax. I could not believe - that - was their answer for all my questions and for the many incidents and it took them 3 days to come up with it. Again, reading my polite response written whilst exhausted, frustrated and half-asleep...surprises me now:

My response to the above - a final attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt and my final email to Tradition management said:
Hi, thanks but the problem goes a bit deeper than a single hand.

Here's a 2nd hand 10-15 hours after that first hand: [attached file: Tradition BJ even money game screenshot REPRODUCTION]

And here's another hand where there was no Double option for me when there should have been...50 hours later: [attached file: Tradition BJ even money game SS where is DOUBLE}

------------

Of course the real issues are not really about these specific hands. The real issues are:

1. What's the story you're running with for why this ONLY happened on my account at Tradition casino?

2. If it was not just my account that was affected by this underpayment, why in god's name was Blackjack left open for 60 or more hours after I first reported the incident and was lied to by your CS in gratitude for trying to assist you?

3. Why was the game left open 30 hrs AFTER I reported the 2nd incident and questioned your CS why in god's name the game was being left open when it was underpaying so often?

You need to answer those questions please, and frankly I'm getting tired of asking politely for the courtesy of responses to my mind-blowingly fair questions - only to be ignored or insulted or lied to by Tradition and Rival.

I can't ask these questions again, and I'm going to need urgent / detailed / clarifying reasons / responses for all of them.
If I thought before I could no longer be surprised by these clowns, I was - in fact - proven wrong with their response an hour or 2 ago. Prepare to be shocked:



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I do not know whether they were actively attempting to steal only from me, or whether the "configuration problem" underpaid many thousands of Blackjack players in the last 3-4 days whilst they left it open in the face of my demands they close it until it's fixed, or if they are all crooks or perhaps just some crooks mixed up with some incompetents - and I'm not sure I really care all that much anymore.

I'm exhausted, I'm out of pocket, I've been lied to more often than if they were a Virtual casino, I've been punished with losing all bonuses and comps at the one casino who had always done the right thing by me and was my favourite online casino [in return for trying to help them] - and if the above is not Rogue, then we need to put Virtual back on the Accredited List. Because if the above is not Rogue....very little is.
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
Here's some more specific questions for our Rival friends:

1. How can Blackjack at one Rival casino be "configured" differently [incorrectly, mind - where it underpays to the advantage of that Rival casino] than the Blackjack games at every other Rival casinos?

2. Are we then to accept the fact that every game at every Rival casino can be configured differently [and therefore incorrectly to the advantage of each specific Rival casino who wishes to underpay]?

It is clear we must accept that fact now. So perhaps it's a blessing in disguise I have been bonus-banned and prevented from playing my all-time favourite Slots with extended playtime via bonuses. But it's still pretty sad all the same. And depressing really....

3. Why is it, that after 46 hours since I notified you of the bug which is preventing all the thousands and thousands of Blackjack players from Doubling after Splitting [even though the rules clearly state that Doubling after Splitting is allowed]...why is it that 46 hours after I assisted you with reporting of the bug....was I able to reproduce it just now, over. and over. and over again?



--------------

As an academic exercise where I try to imagine what the 'fair' result would be to recompense all the thousands of Blackjack players who've been getting inadvertently screwed AFTER I kindly informed you of this particular bug - I was literally unable to come up with an answer.

Because gambling is a domino effect of results - if you're losing, you might play longer frustrated. If you're winning, you are more likely to cash out perhaps. All those tens of thousands of victimised hands across all of Rival Blackjack players in the world during that time....

...not to mention the above fact that we now have to recognise and accept that every Rival casino can "configure" their own games individually and...

I cannot see how you can be allowed to continue in operation.

And yet - somehow - something tells me you'll find a way. And I think that is inherently sad more than anything else.
 
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Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Well I must say this is quite amazing - and it looks like irrefutable proof that Rival BJ has been cheating!! I wonder how many others were ripped off??

On another note...

Ive only seen one other member who posts with such detail and eloquence, and they also happen to be a BJ player. Its also very interesting that the OP happened to mention this:

I have not seen a Live Chat that bad before. And predict perhaps there is a challenger to the Rome Live Chat of "I soooo likkeee youooo" weirdness.

...which is what was said to the 'other' poster I just referred to at Rome Casino.

You can draw your own conclusions - those who read through that whole Rome issue will notice the marked similarities, especially about how fast they play BJ.

Of course, I will apologise if I am mistaken.

I also believe it should not take away from the serious issue they have raised.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
OH.........MY........GOD!!!!

Sam, I gotta be honest. After reading a couple of your "drunken" posts last night...I wasn't really sure what to make of you. And when I saw the length of this one, I was hesitant to read through it all. But I am so glad I did. Given its length, it is one of the best laid out, comprehensive and easy to follow posts I think I've ever read on here. Hats off to you. You got your point across extremely well, and explained the situation in full. :thumbsup:

In re: the issue(s). I don't even know where to start. First of all, those chat transcripts absolutely "rival" (no pun intended) any that I've read anywhere, including the TopGame fiasco experienced by JHV last year. How you managed to keep your cool, is beyond me. I think I would have been screaming in all caps after those answers, and the length of time you were made to wait....to get exactly ZERO satisfaction and/or answers.

As to the software issue itself...talk about trying to sweep something under the rug. Jeezus!! I'm not even a BJ player, and I certainly am not under the employ of a casino....and I'm fully aware that a BJ does not pay even money. The incompetence is mind blowing, it really is.

And the fact that they took days for you to finally receive an answer is unacceptable with a problem as serious as this. Again...memories of TopGame and their incompetence. It's quite clear they thought that tossing you $100, and ignoring the problem, was their idea of a solution. Christ, have any of these people who run and work at these places, ever even played ANY casino games before? Do they have any basic knowledge of how things work?

I am surprised that Nicholas didn't take more of an interest as this IS a software issue, not casino specific, I wouldn't have thought. And I really hope the bonus banning is simply coincidental to your situation, and not a result of you bringing this issue to the attention of several people, and refusing to give up on it.

And now to the real issue. They claim that one, it was only active for a few days. And two, that it was only at Tradition Casino. To address the first part, how do we know that for sure? I'd like to think if this had been going on longer than that, surely someone else would have noticed it? But again, who really knows? And even if it were just a few days....how many people lost money, and how much did they lose? An audit of each and every account needs to be done ASAP, similar to what TopGame "said" they did when their software was cheating people as well.

As to issue number two, I always thought that the white label Rivals all ran off a central server? That if the payout on a certain slot was set at 96% at one of them...it would be identical at all of the other twenty odd of them? Would this not hold true for table games as well? Is the software at each Rival run separately ie. able to have updates, and tweaks done to individual casinos/games...without it affecting the other twenty odd white labels? They certainly share the central support and payment processing...why would they be able to tinker with their games on an individual basis? Not really sure on this...just giving my take of how I "thought" it worked.

In re: the double down issue...what more can be said? The rules clearly state that doubling down IS allowed on a split, yet the email you received says it is not. Another example of their complete incompetence, and lack of attention to detail.

I remember Nashvegas many times has alluded to a major issue with the BJ play at Rival...before he closed all his accounts there. But he's never come right out and stated what it was. I'm really, really praying that it is NOT this. If it is...I'm gonna be pissed at him for not making it public sooner. And...Rival needs a direct trip to the rogue pit, if that is the case. I hope he weighs in here and says one way or another if his issue is indeed this one, or something else entirely.

I'd like to say I'm surprised by this...but I'm not. I've always thought of Rival as incompetent overall, and less than honest in many ways. As to these particular issues...I do not know if it was a deliberate attempt to cheat ie. dishonesty, or nothing more than complete incompetence...and just not giving a shit. Who knows? What I can say is that just for those chat sessions/emails/general support.....every single white label Rival who uses that "centralized" support belongs on the Not Recommended List here at CM. I am going to PM Bryan and make sure he reads your post on Monday. I know he tends to scan the forum..and just the fact that your initial post is so long, may put him off reading the entire thing. It deserves to be read.

And thank you for taking the time to compile all that, and post it in the manner you did. Excellent job. :)
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Ive only seen one other member who posts with such detail and eloquence, and they also happen to be a BJ player. Its also very interesting that the OP happened to mention this:

I have not seen a Live Chat that bad before. And predict perhaps there is a challenger to the Rome Live Chat of "I soooo likkeee youooo" weirdness.

...which is what was said to the 'other' poster I just referred to at Rome Casino.

You can draw your own conclusions - those who read through that whole Rome issue will notice the marked similarities, especially about how fast they play BJ.

Of course, I will apologise if I am mistaken.

I also believe it should not take away from the serious issue they have raised.
I had the same thoughts Nifty, exactly!! I actually liked the guy, but do understand why he was banned. But again, you are right...even if it is him..this issue is too important to bury. And that original post of his, is surely nothing like the posts he made on here last night, or the night before...whenever.

I wish everyone could post like that, lol...hell, I wish I could put together a post like that without rambling my head off. :laugh:
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
Well I must say this is quite amazing - and it looks like irrefutable proof that Rival BJ has been cheating!! I wonder how many others were ripped off??

On another note...

Ive only seen one other member who posts with such detail and eloquence, and they also happen to be a BJ player. Its also very interesting that the OP happened to mention this:

I have not seen a Live Chat that bad before. And predict perhaps there is a challenger to the Rome Live Chat of "I soooo likkeee youooo" weirdness.

...which is what was said to the 'other' poster I just referred to at Rome Casino.

You can draw your own conclusions - those who read through that whole Rome issue will notice the marked similarities, especially about how fast they play BJ.

Of course, I will apologise if I am mistaken.

I also believe it should not take away from the serious issue they have raised.
You don't need to apologise - primarily because you are 100% correct. I actually told Nicholas who I was for full disclosure and I'm not unaware that changing my posting style from a drunk old man with a fox wife away in Hong Kong to serious prose is not going to be a dead giveaway.

This is JHV obviously. And of course Bryan can ban this account if he wishes - I would request perhaps to save such an action until after this issue has been discussed for awhile or, failing that and if he must ban me immediately, I would request that at least let it not detract from the very serious issues I have listed above.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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CAG
MM
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SamD, Rival are unfortunately notorious for their display glitches; what cards does the play history show for those 2 Blackjack hands?
Would be interesting to see if it matches what you saw on your screen - though of course that could not possibly be the problem with the "no double after split" issue.

KK
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
I've been punished with losing all bonuses and comps at the one casino who had always done the right thing by me and was my favourite online casino [in return for trying to help them]
I really should qualify this statement - it's incorrect. I more meant "in recent times" [as I've been playing massive amounts on Vegas Regal]. But 32Red and 3Dice have absolutely always done not only the right thing by me, but have gone above and beyond in ways I guess I should mention - at least one example in particular as it saved me perhaps some personal embarrassment and definitely saved the online casino from what would have turned out to be very convincing yet very unfair [in the end] allegations.

I was 100% convinced that an online casino had stolen $30,000 from me with something that happened in a tournament in what appeared to be POST-tourney completion time whilst the results were being tabulated. I had a lot of screenshots and that which effectively "proved" the situation. The casino staff themselves were seemingly helpful, but after a month without resolution [perhaps they were unwilling to discuss their server technical stuff for security reasons], I was convinced they were rogue and just stalling for time and I approached Enzo with a request for assistance to expose them properly. Enzo - who as we all know is brilliant - instead used his technical intelligence to exonerate the casino in a way they were unable or unwilling to exonerate themselves. It turned out to be nothing more than a semi-complex [at least for me] issue involving traffic from my computer to the the casino's server.

They hadn't done anything wrong, and there was no cheating at their end, it was merely that unless I was actively playing my computer would not 'talk' to their server and the score wouldn't update as a result - I was not playing because I thought I had the lead in the tournament. But I had been long since overtaken perfectly fairly, my computer just hadn't updated the scores due to my non-action.

Enzo basically saved me from embarrassing myself and from subsequent guilt at having tarnished the good name of the casino I was ready to blast screenshots with allegations of ROGUE etc, and he saved the casino from my [ill-advised if perhaps somewhat justified yet misconceived impending accusations].

So basically there are some great people in this industry, but sweet sassy molassy, are they not the rarity?

I strongly suspect that they are in ways we can't even comprehend - if Nicholas and VRC [of all casinos :(] and all the Rivals turn out to be [as it so clearly - at least to me - appears likely or probable] simply rogue or incompetent. And that is still really sad....
 

Spin & Win

Newbie member
PABnonaccred
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Location
USA
Sam, all,

I know I'm the new guy here and all, but aside from the obvious malfunctioning software issues, what really stood out to me here is just how crappy this casino's (and frankly most online that I've come across) customer service is.

I've lurked long enough to read some live chat horror stories here, and I'm sure several of you gurus can post links to some of your favorites. But, this type of CS experience, unfortunately, just seems so typical to me.

Even when I've wanted to claim a bonus, or deposit a good chunk of money, and had to chat with CS before I did so, at times I've also waited upwards of 1/2 - 1 hour!

WTF??? I can almost picture some Asian type sweat shop guy cracking a whip, and yelling 'Mao! Diddy Mao!' behind these CSR's while they have 100 chat windows open, and are trying to furiously answer all their "customers."

And that is CS for deposits!!! Not even regarding problems, let alone a problem as significant, and blatant, as Sam had.

Furthermore, here's a guy who's betting $100 or $200 a hand. Heck, even if he deposited $50 and worked it up to 1K, he still has screen shots for what is probably the max bet, or if not, a high bet. Why are these people not kissing his azz just on this principle alone??? He's apparently not logging on and hoping to win big on the penny slots.

That's especially what I don't get with the CS at online casinos, and how much it truly sucks azz! If some people put half the cash they have dropped at an online casino into a brick and mortar, they'd be comped more than they know what to do with. But, online, it's like wait for 2 hours to deposit your 1K, then maybe we'll help you... That is, if we feel like it...

Got a problem? Oh well, that sucks for you... Don't bother us with it, we're too busy making our depositing customers wait 1/2 hour or more just to help them with a deposit, so that means the wait time for your so called "problem issue" will involve you basically becoming a skeleton at your computer, while tumbleweeds blow by.

Any casino that solves this CS problem, and truly takes it seriously is the one that is going to come out on top. Well, at least for experienced, seasoned players who discriminate where they play online.

However, from what I've seen at least, they just don't count on people like Sam who take screen shots, document, hound CS, and don't just let it go, like so many other people would.

Unfortunately that's probably my biggest gripe about online casinos. Because of their distance, and virtual anonymity factor, they know there's little to no recourse for things like this, so they can just keep giving crappy CS, and the money still rolls in for them.

:mad:
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
SamD, Rival are unfortunately notorious for their display glitches; what cards does the play history show for those 2 Blackjack hands?
Would be interesting to see if it matches what you saw on your screen - though of course that could not possibly be the problem with the "no double after split" issue.

KK
Goodness me. I literally spent 5, maybe 10 minutes poring around trying to find game history which showed the actual cards just like MGV's PlayCheck and concluded it was not available.

When you said this above I thought I'd take one final glance and get a screenshot to show it's not available and there it is sitting right in front of my eyes - I just had to click on the ID link :oops:

Looking for the hands now...sec...

----------

Goodness I can't believe how much I've played only during what I thought were tiny sessions at Tradition - many many many pages scrolling through but here is the first one hand I noticed [which was obscured by the instruction help box]:



Pretty freaking unbelievable that they would try to lie straight out knowing that this was sitting there available - I guess they assumed that I was a donk [not an unfair assumption at times considering my gambling] or perhaps they panicked and desperately gambled on my going "hmm ok guess I made a mistake" and played on - or something. Hell if I know - nothing about their actions since my first Live Chat really make any sense to me...including Nicolas' reaction to my worries about ethical casinos suffering unfairly purely by association.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
SamD, Rival are unfortunately notorious for their display glitches; what cards does the play history show for those 2 Blackjack hands?
Would be interesting to see if it matches what you saw on your screen - though of course that could not possibly be the problem with the "no double after split" issue.

KK
I initially thought the same thing KK...but wouldn't their email where they confirmed incorrect configuration of the game, and the reason why it only paid out 1:1 instead of 3:2, rule out a "display" error? They pretty much admitted that the payout was set incorrectly.

EDIT: Sam's/JHV's hand history pretty much rules out a display glitch. No question he was paid 1:1 on a genuine BJ.
 

Nifty29

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Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
You don't need to apologise - primarily because you are 100% correct. I actually told Nicholas who I was for full disclosure and I'm not unaware that changing my posting style from a drunk old man with a fox wife away in Hong Kong to serious prose is not going to be a dead giveaway.

This is JHV obviously. And of course Bryan can ban this account if he wishes - I would request perhaps to save such an action until after this issue has been discussed for awhile or, failing that and if he must ban me immediately, I would request that at least let it not detract from the very serious issues I have listed above.
Im very impressed that you admitted that JHV.

Its a shame you had to use subterfuge, and its possible you will still be banned, but the issue you raised is horrendous.
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
And now to the real issue. They claim that one, it was only active for a few days. And two, that it was only at Tradition Casino. To address the first part, how do we know that for sure? I'd like to think if this had been going on longer than that, surely someone else would have noticed it? But again, who really knows? And even if it were just a few days....how many people lost money, and how much did they lose? An audit of each and every account needs to be done ASAP, similar to what TopGame "said" they did when their software was cheating people as well.

I remember Nashvegas many times has alluded to a major issue with the BJ play at Rival...before he closed all his accounts there. But he's never come right out and stated what it was. I'm really, really praying that it is NOT this. If it is...I'm gonna be pissed at him for not making it public sooner. And...Rival needs a direct trip to the rogue pit, if that is the case. I hope he weighs in here and says one way or another if his issue is indeed this one, or something else entirely.
To the Rival controlling the code issue - I'm sure I've read somewhere where a Rival casino operator allayed fears in this regard by claiming that Rival obviously controlled these things so that little Rival casinos here and there couldn't [for example] set a Rival slot known to pay out at 97% all the way down something ridiculous purely for their own benefit. And I was relieved to hear that, for obvious reasons - and to have the situation any other way means ALL Rival casinos are instantly unplayable I fear.

And yet - right there in Tradition's joke of an answer to my concerns - they pretty much confirm our worst fear in this regard, that games at each casino can be individually "configured" even to the point where they underpay in gross fashion.

As I've only played on two Rival casinos in my life, and I was aware of this claim that all games' code was locked by Rival, I literally almost vomited when I thought about how much maybe a bit drunk, maybe a lot drunk Blackjack play I'd done at Vegas Regal and I immediately went to test it to see if perhaps I had been getting screwed on wow thousands, maybe tens of thousands of hands, I don't know. But no, whilst Tradition was underpaying Blackjacks, Vegas Regal was not. And this reinforced my - apparently - incorrect belief they were the good guys and Tradition alone was being shady.

So Rival does not control the code for their games. And anyone who claims they do has been lying, I guess.

--------

I don't know NashVegas personally and it's not my position to judge him without knowing his reasons for non-disclosure, but I do strongly feel one has a moral obligation to make something like this public - obviously. And I was very much struggling with the ethical dilemma of holding back for 4 days from releasing it whilst players played and were fleeced vs releasing it and having what I thought were innocent ethical casinos like Vegas Regal suffering unfairly.

And because of that internal ethical dilemma I was growing increasingly frustrated with the length of time Nicholas [who seemingly missed the entire freaking point - that I was trying to help HIM] was taking to respond after I'd shipped the entire evidence to him.

When I logged into Vegas Regal to relax and play today, and perhaps see if I could get Nicholas on chat, only to discover that was how he decided to thank me....I don't have the words.

And if anyone thinks his removing of my bonuses was anything relating to my donkish recreational play, I have what must be a mind-blowing and server overloading of HH's in my Vegas Regal to prove I'm about as recreational as it gets. When you rack up massive massive turnover on games with NO bonuses, just gambling your own money and your own money alone, that is the definition of recreation gambling.

I don't mean to sound like a whiny cry-baby, but I was gutted by his decision to repay my trying to help him...with that childish slap. Gutted.
 

all4greed

Now we can do business.
Joined
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Location
Pacific NW
The first thing I thought of was getting the play history as well. Would be interesting to see what it showed. Screenshots are good but I've seen many that were doctored.

Anyway, that's a pretty serious problem and needs to be addressed. Seems like no one really wants to address it though. Not sure where you can go from here.

As far as Rival chat, I swear to God they want you to just go away if they can't or don't want to answer a question. You would be better off just yelling at your monitor. Maybe they are just a bunch of 'bots.
 

refre

Senior lurker
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
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Location
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And now to the real issue. They claim that one, it was only active for a few days. And two, that it was only at Tradition Casino. To address the first part, how do we know that for sure? I'd like to think if this had been going on longer than that, surely someone else would have noticed it?
I had the exact same problem at Tradition casino the 22. of last month.
Of course I realize now I should have posted here back then.
They claimed "we have made some updates to ensure that this does not occur again". Obviously they didn't.

Freddy
 

incrediblestuff

SearchingForTheHolyGrail!
webmeister
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wow samd, or jhv, i was surprised when i read your post, when i saw it was a post by you, i thought, hm maybe he drank to much .. :p
but after the first paragraph, i realized you were actually quite sober!
indeed a shocking revelation.
i for one have not until very recently started playing on rival software, as im from holland, and we are/were bonus banned from most operators.
however, since of late it appears that we can join the "fun" so of course i did.
(wanted to play those famous I-slots)
enough of me, more on topic:
im a bit honoured to meet you, as im very aware of your history, and ive read that thread on rome casino, and remember it very well, after that i read a lot of your posts, on several fora:)
so im glad your back..
i could send you some serious candidates to match your "funchat" with rome's support, but thats not really the point.
i am almost inclined to immediately uninstall the recently installed rivals, but of course i will wait a bit, cause i somehow doubt that this would concern all rivals.
as far as i know, only rtg had that freedom, in the adjustment of various settings, however, i cannot exclude the possibility that rival does indeed have it too.
i am really curious as to what the rival rep, and the casino reps have to say about this matter, it will be interesting to say the least!
maybe all the new rivals are infact a new branch of the virtual group and their cohorts, in an attempt to mask their identity (a very widespread scam, with pretty solid preparation would have to be underlying)
but thats just me conspiracy-theorising, but ONLY because posts like yours, practically force me to, think of such major possibilities 0.o
anyway, thanks for sharing, and wow man, wow...:notworthy
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
I had the exact same problem at Tradition casino the 22. of last month.
Of course I realize now I should have posted here back then.
They claimed "we have made some updates to ensure that this does not occur again". Obviously they didn't.

Freddy
Wow Freddy....thanks for posting that. Any chance at all that you have saved screenshots and/or a screenie of your hand histories? This sounds "identical" to the Topgame software issues in that players were told the problems were fixed, when in fact, they were not. Only after denying they ever existed in the first place of course.

So, at least since the 22nd of February then? Over a month. What compensation did they offer you, if any?

My God, how many people have lost money on this..and how much money are we talking?

To the Rival controlling the code issue - I'm sure I've read somewhere where a Rival casino operator allayed fears in this regard by claiming that Rival obviously controlled these things so that little Rival casinos here and there couldn't [for example] set a Rival slot known to pay out at 97% all the way down something ridiculous purely for their own benefit. And I was relieved to hear that, for obvious reasons - and to have the situation any other way means ALL Rival casinos are instantly unplayable I fear.

And yet - right there in Tradition's joke of an answer to my concerns - they pretty much confirm our worst fear in this regard, that games at each casino can be individually "configured" even to the point where they underpay in gross fashion.

As I've only played on two Rival casinos in my life, and I was aware of this claim that all games' code was locked by Rival, I literally almost vomited when I thought about how much maybe a bit drunk, maybe a lot drunk Blackjack play I'd done at Vegas Regal and I immediately went to test it to see if perhaps I had been getting screwed on wow thousands, maybe tens of thousands of hands, I don't know. But no, whilst Tradition was underpaying Blackjacks, Vegas Regal was not. And this reinforced my - apparently - incorrect belief they were the good guys and Tradition alone was being shady.

So Rival does not control the code for their games. And anyone who claims they do has been lying, I guess.
This is a huge part of the whole thing Sam. Like you, I am positive I read that Rival casinos CANNOT control their games individually. That whatever settings are imposed on one casino, are across the board for all. That is why I posted that was my "take" on how it worked. But if you say the game was paying out correctly at VR (ie. 3:2), then that must not be the case. It appears that each individual operator can tinker with their games, install updates, etc. however they see fit. I wish I could remember where I had read it, so that I could quote it here. I can't even remember if it was on this forum, or another. Maybe I'll do some searching later.

In relation to Nash...he plays big, just as you do. On slots and on BJ. And Rival lost a huge whale when they dicked him around...on his cashouts, his gameplay and the support. He was also lied to, and they couldn't even be bothered sticking to the payout schedule they worked out with him. Again, I hope he weighs in here...I'd really like to hear his take on all this.

I'm curious about one thing Sam...given the high stakes you play, why would you choose to play at any casino that has daily/weekly/monthly maximum withdrawal limits? Say you had won 100K or something...do you know how long it would have taken you to get paid? Again, just curious...as you mention playing at 32Red and 3Dice, cream of the crop, both of them. And neither with any kind of payout restrictions.

As an aside, I did PM Bryan, and he promised he will go over all this on Monday. Just got home after his trip to the Isle of Man, and is taking the weekend off. But I did stress how important I thought it was, and that it needs to be addressed. I also made him aware that you are JHV...not sure what will happen with that. I just want to see this get the attention it deserves.
 

refre

Senior lurker
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Joined
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Location
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Wow Freddy....thanks for posting that. Any chance at all that you have saved screenshots and/or a screenie of your hand histories? This sounds "identical" to the Topgame software issues in that players were told the problems were fixed, when in fact, they were not. Only after denying they ever existed in the first place of course.

So, at least since the 22nd of February then? Over a month. What compensation did they offer you, if any?

My God, how many people have lost money on this..and how much money are we talking?
Hiya Pina. I'm afraid the screenshot is lost.
But I do have e-mails / live chats confirming the malfunction.
I'll see if I can find a screenshot of the hand history.

They did send me a few small bonuses to make up for their mistake.
I didn't make a big deal about it since I was playing with a ND bonus in the first palce.

Update:

View attachment 21870

Freddy
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Hiya Pina. I'm afraid the screeshot is lost.
But I do have e-mails / live chats confirming the malfunction.
I'll see if I can find a screenshot of the hand history.

They did send me a few small bonuses to make up for their mistake.
I didn't make a big deal about it since I was playing with a ND bonus in the first palce.

Freddy
Thanks Freddy. The emails/chats will be great. I would think that Bryan and/or Max will want to see them at some point. Really glad you saved them..and also glad you came forward with this now.

When I said I'd be pissed at Nash..he knows what I mean, lol. I keep trying to get him to spit this stuff out, but he's gotta be in the mood, lol. And he has also had alot of not so great stuff going on in his life the last year. So it's understandable that casino issues haven't been at the forefront for him.

I have to admit that if this IS the BJ issue he's been alluding to for the last year or more...I am going to be blown away.

EDIT: Freddy, was your issue also at Tradition? (nevermind, lol..saw your original post and it was Tradition...sorry)
 

SamD

Banned User
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Location
my home
but after the first paragraph, i realized you were actually quite sober!
;) I was actually completely sober for most of my 'drunk' SamD posts last couple days. I was just having some creative writing fun.

however, i cannot exclude the possibility that rival does indeed have it too.
Yea I mean I guess I don't know what to say about this. Rival handles Tradition's CS. So therefore Rival emailed me to say EXACTLY THIS - that each casino can be "configured". See the image below in their email:



Tradition (read: Rival) email said:
The game was incorrectly configured that is why the BJ paid out at 1:1.

It was only set at this casino.
I don't think it gets any more unambiguous than that.

I had the exact same problem at Tradition casino the 22. of last month.
Of course I realize now I should have posted here back then.
Oh dude. wow. I don't judge people without knowing what reasons they might have not to disclose, and I wasn't initially going to post the screenshots I'm about to post - but you have a Moral Obligation to share this kind of stuff. I guess thank you for admitting it now, but please in the future, remember that withholding information like this can really hurt others down the line.

And never - never - never trust an online casino at their word. Or really anyone for that matter in this sad, often pathetic and selfish world of vested interests and grey or non-existent morality.





I have - as it stands - $6750 pending withdrawals from the two casinos. Did I consider the fact that I could wait 5 days or so before releasing this information so that I could be paid first? Of course I did - I'd be clearly lying if I said the thought never crossed my mind.

But you have responsibilities to humanity [even if they so rarely deserve it] and you have to be able to sleep at night. The problem, with so much of this world, is that people sleep like a baby whilst their actions [or lack of action] hurts others. But what can you do but control your own actions? And occasionally cry about it a bit, maybe... :( And get banned for calling others to a higher degree of ethical behaviour and not "respecting that all opinions are valid" when those 'opinions' are patently and provably wrong and are being used to deceive the less fortunate.

You have to be pretty rich for 7k to be inconsequential. Please believe me when I say that the 7k I may fully have forfeited today is a lot of money for me. I mean, I hope they pay it. And if they don't, clearly they join Virtual, but I had to make the decision knowing I could well be forfeiting that 7k and 5 days of people getting screwed whilst I selfishly waited to get paid didn't sit right with me.
 

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