Bogus Complaint Red Flush refuse to pay me.

[JimS09]

I open an account at Red Flush casino. I deposited $400 of my own money and began playing, winning and lose. I played River Nile slots and won $2000+ I had my account balance to $4000 and decided to cashout. Afterward I was told that my account was locked dued to fact I was banned from other MG casinos. And my winnings and deposit would be confiscated. I didn't do anything wrong. Never had a chargeback or nothing. They wouldn't even give me a reason. Except that I was part of a group that was banned from MG. I am old on hospice and dying. I have family members that keeps me informed. But by no means am i apart of any group. I can live with the fact of banning me for whatever reason. But to take away my winnings on my $400 deposit and keeping both. This is not right! If I would have lost they would have been paid no problem. But they are keeping my deposit and winnings. This is crazy and im looking for legal advice. I will not rest on this one.

 

[me_and_ed]

PM the rep, go to the I gaming reps tab and find martynbeacon he is the Red Flush rep here.

 

[maxd]

Click here: martynbeacon

 

[vinylweatherman]

I thought there was no such thing as a central blacklist. Come on reps - is there or isn't there. Red Flush is independent, so they should NOT have access to data from other MG casinos on ANY of their players.

A breach of terms can cause a confiscation of winnings, but I have NEVER heard of a casinomeister accredited casino confiscating a deposit unless that deposit was made using a STOLEN deposit method, such as a stolen credit card, and this is then only to ensure the stolen funds are returned to their rightful owner.

PAB is the best course of action here, if true, Red Flush will have to prove the OP has committed a FRAUD, and a pretty BIG one to justify confiscation of a deposit. The only "banning" that generally occurs is of advantage players, who get removed from receiving bonuses. No "group" can do anything if they cannot receive bonuses, so this part is irrelevant.

The position here is that either the player breached the rules or they didn't, and if they didn't, but the casino wants rid of them, they have to be paid their winnings AND then banned.

If players are in a place, such as a hospice, it is possible that a large and changing number of players are appearing to come from the same "household", and this could get them mistaken for a "ring" of players out to scam casinos out of the bonuses. While this is catered for in the terms and conditions, it is a technical point that can be misunderstood by the ordinary player, who thinks they are OK if they themselves have only one account, and follow the rules. This is more often a problem on college (university) campuses, where many students will play, and the assumption is that if they are mostly winning with bonuses, they are acting as a group and sharing the risk. Pattern of play is a factor in determining whether a group strategy is being used. Depositing and NOT taking a bonus has no place in this kind of group advantage play strategy.
It would help if the software were able to register these duplicates from the IP address and MAC address at registration, locking the account BEFORE a player has deposited and played. It would then be down to the player to get clearance from the casino to continue to play after satisfying them they are not up to any tricks.

In the event that this turns out to be a fraudulent complaint, the OP will receive an invoice from Casinomeister, and will have this fact announced, and their forum account banned. This does happen, and when someone joins and immediately posts a complaint about what is considered a reputable casino, we have to consider the possibility that the complaint might not be all it seems.
If the OP has ever been told by an MG casino that they have been banned, whether justified or not, it would be wise to say so, and let this fact be considered alongside this complaint, and allow the debate to consider whether the other casinos acted properly in issuing a ban, and whether they have indeed passed this on to Red Flush in some way, which will again ignite the debate about there being a central blacklist for all MG casinos used against certain "advantage players". Rival admit they have such a list, and use it to bonus ban players, and Playtech SEEM to have some kind of list, but claim that they do not have one at the software provider level (nice choice of words, but still, we have cases where players get banned at one Playtech casino, and somehow a Playtech casino of a different group knows straight away that they are an "undesirable" before they have even played a single game - to me, that's a "central blacklist")

 

[maxd]

FYI, the PAB (aka "Pitch-A-Bitch") page is here, but do contact Marty first and see how that works out.

 

[Simmo!]

I'm very surprised they said they'd keep the deposit. I would have thought that MG licensing conditions would state that deposits should be returned in the event of acount closures unless perhaps there are extenuating circumstances. Be interesting to get the lowdown from the rep on this one.

 

[JimS09]

info: Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: You are now chatting with 'Laetitia'
Laetitia: Welcome to Red Flush Casino. How may I assist you?
js: Can you tell me the status of my withdrawal.
js: its going on 2 weeks
js: now and i have not receive it
Laetitia: Hello. One moment for me please.
Laetitia: thanks for your patience, as per the chat you had with one of our consultants, your cash-in is still with our investigations department, we had a few issues with players from Georgia and we are attempting to tie up loose ends, I know that it's frustrating, but we don't want to release monies to the incorrect person, I hope you understand that we are protecting your financial investment.
js: i sent in my documents. So im the right person
js: how long does this investigation supposed to last?
js: i deposit, i lose u keep. I win u pay
js: just that simple
Laetitia: Just a moment for me please.
Laetitia: Thanks for your patience.
Laetitia: We share informations with other casinos and you are linked with a fraudulent group. Unfortunately as per our terms and conditions, your funds have been confiscated and your account has been locked.
js: how is that?
js: what did i do wrong here?
js: i won with my own deposit
info: Your chat transcript will be sent to [email protected] at the end of your chat.
js: hello

All I know is I have only 1 account here. I sent in all my documents. I even suggest to send in my doctors letter to prove im disable. All I did was deposit $400 and play slots. I hit 5 tuts mask across line 1 played a few more hours lost $1500+ and cashed out. If they gonna ban me. So be it, but i would like my winning and deposit.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I'm very surprised they said they'd keep the deposit. I would have thought that MG licensing conditions would state that deposits should be returned in the event of acount closures unless perhaps there are extenuating circumstances. Be interesting to get the lowdown from the rep on this one.

This is what makes this complaint stand out. It would be a first for a Casinomeister accredited casino, but so far all we have is the word of the OP.
Even the togue casinos tend to refund deposits of winners they refuse to pay (keeping those of the losers that would not have been paid had they won of course )

With Red Flush, there can be no misunderstanding of what constitutes a casino group either, as they are part of nothing, but an independent casino, and should simply NOT have any knowledge of this player's disagreements with other MG powered casinos.

Martyn may not be the best contact though, as he has stated that he cannot deal with specific player issues, only general matters, and it would be a case of Martyn forwarding this on to another person for action. Martyn could, however, comment on the claim that a DEPOSIT was confiscated, and from a player who leads us to believe this was a deposit WITHOUT claiming any of the bonuses (which would rule out "advantage play").

This is the SECOND time in as many weeks that Red Flush has been the subject of serious complaint, itself pretty unusual for an accredited casino.

 

[me_and_ed]

This raises a flag for me, I have made a few deposits over the last couple weeks but will not until I see an acceptable explanation to the queries.

 

[winbig]

Just curious, was this your first deposit with them, or have you been a player there for awhile?

Note the 7.5x max cashout rule for "new" players (not yet deemed "Loyal")(THAT ISN'T DOCUMENTED):

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/red-flush-missing-and-predatory-t-c.26372/

And HOW THE FCK can someone be "Linked with part of a fraudulent group" when they deposit their own money, don't take a bonus, and win?????????? hahahahaahahahaa geeeeeze this is getting interesting.

 

[suzecat]

I hope Red Flush will come in and state their position on this one.............it is too weird to just stay silent and hope it goes away.

 

[catrina m]

I thought about trying them, but decided to search casinomeister about them

Glad I read this, to confiscate all the money and call you a fraudster is unreal.

Sounds like another wild west, no rules casino.

I will stay far away!

 

[Swede]

We were going to check out this casino this evening but will put it on ice for the time being to see how they respond to these complaints.

And 7.5 max cashout! On a straight deposit with sticky bonus? How about with no bonus. Same new player maximum? WTF!!!

 

[winbig]

Ok, to be fair - & I didn't want to double post, so here's the link to the other RF thread. Mods: Could you merge these threads, since they're relevant to each other?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/red-flush-missing-and-predatory-t-c.26372/

(Another predatory term revealed, and $750 max cashout reviewed)

 

[pevangel]

i play at redflush and beleive me martyn will reply i know he will. i have never had any problem at all with red flush thay have been great including cs, i am just a player i like their unique games also. i am so sorry for you problems.

good luck

pevangel

 

[Simmo!]

Mods: Could you merge these threads, since they're relevant to each other?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/red-flush-missing-and-predatory-t-c.26372/

Nah.. I see them as seperate issues and the x-link you posted is good enough for posterity. Aside from which, I can't be arsed

 

[catrina m]

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just curious, was this your first deposit with them, or have you been a player there for awhile?

Note the 7.5x max cashout rule for "new" players (not yet deemed "Loyal")(THAT ISN'T DOCUMENTED):

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/red-flush-missing-and-predatory-t-c.26372/

And HOW THE FCK can someone be "Linked with part of a fraudulent group" when they deposit their own money, don't take a bonus, and win?????????? hahahahaahahahaa geeeeeze this is getting interesting.

Fraud usually involves a scam relating to the bonuses. Often, a tactic can be devised that produces a mathematical profit for a group of players, yet would not be worth considering for an individual working alone. This player took no bonus (unless we are told otherwise by either party), so no advantage would have been gained. Further, this was slots play with no bonus, so not even a system could be involved. The only possibility seems to be an attempt to launder money through the casino by depositing, playing, and then withdrawing. While individuals will win or lose, a group acting together could retrieve a considerable amount of their "dirty" money as nice clean "laundered" money at the other end.
Certain deposit methods make this much easier than others, and the casino may be unable to simply return the money back to the method of deposit.

This certainly calls for a proper investigation to ensure the casino has got it right, as if they have made a mistake and truly screwed over someone who is currently in a hospice through mixing them up with a fraud ring, they could suffer a great deal of bad publicity. This has already happened, with the above posts from players who were thinking of signing up, but want to see the dust settle on this recent string of complaints against Red Flush. The other thread does them no favours, as it shows they have unusually predatory, and hidden in some respects, clauses in their terms and conditions.

 

[dambusted]

Is this really a surprise?

i play at redflush and beleive me martyn will reply i know he will. i have never had any problem at all with red flush thay have been great including cs, i am just a player i like their unique games also. i am so sorry for you problems.

good luck

pevangel

Good Luck with that! I haven't heard from Martyn since Aug. 12 regarding a issue with Red Flush, I think it has been more than enough time!

info: All I know is I have only 1 account here. I sent in all my documents. I even suggest to send in my doctors letter to prove im disable. All I did was deposit $400 and play slots. I hit 5 tuts mask across line 1 played a few more hours lost $1500+ and cashed out. If they gonna ban me. So be it, but i would like my winning and deposit.

Just a FYI, if they do decide to pay you...Don't pay for the $35 expedited check!

 

[chuchu59]

info: Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: You are now chatting with 'Laetitia'
Laetitia: Welcome to Red Flush Casino. How may I assist you?
js: Can you tell me the status of my withdrawal.
js: its going on 2 weeks
js: now and i have not receive it
Laetitia: Hello. One moment for me please.
Laetitia: thanks for your patience, as per the chat you had with one of our consultants, your cash-in is still with our investigations department, we had a few issues with players from Georgia and we are attempting to tie up loose ends, I know that it's frustrating, but we don't want to release monies to the incorrect person, I hope you understand that we are protecting your financial investment.
js: i sent in my documents. So im the right person
js: how long does this investigation supposed to last?
js: i deposit, i lose u keep. I win u pay
js: just that simple
Laetitia: Just a moment for me please.
Laetitia: Thanks for your patience.
Laetitia: We share informations with other casinos and you are linked with a fraudulent group. Unfortunately as per our terms and conditions, your funds have been confiscated and your account has been locked.
js: how is that?
js: what did i do wrong here?
js: i won with my own deposit
info: Your chat transcript will be sent to [email protected] at the end of your chat.
js: hello

All I know is I have only 1 account here. I sent in all my documents. I even suggest to send in my doctors letter to prove im disable. All I did was deposit $400 and play slots. I hit 5 tuts mask across line 1 played a few more hours lost $1500+ and cashed out. If they gonna ban me. So be it, but i would like my winning and deposit.

JimS09,

Is this the only chat you had with them as I dont seem to notice them stating that your deposit will not be returned. However, I also fail to understand why they can confiscate anything even though they believe you are linked with a fraudulent group. No bonuses were taken and it's obvious this isnt money laundering if you deposit with $400 and win $3600. WTF?

 

[winbig]

i play at redflush and beleive me martyn will reply i know he will. i have never had any problem at all with red flush thay have been great including cs, i am just a player i like their unique games also. i am so sorry for you problems.

good luck

pevangel

Unique games? They're RTG....no different than any others.

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

I really can't wait for Casino's rep to come over and offer *any* comments on this. Even *if* (not that I think so!) Red Flush does possess some information identifying the OP as fraudster... I wonder how on earth they are going to justify confiscation of the player's deposit?
Unbelievable....

 

[pevangel]

Unique games? They're RTG....no different than any others.

thay sre not rtg they are microgaming, they are a little different but they are not rtg.

pevangel

 

[pevangel]

Good Luck with that! I haven't heard from Martyn since Aug. 12 regarding a issue with Red Flush, I think it has been more than enough time!



i am so sorry you still havent heard anything from martyn, have you called and ask to speak to phillip? he is the casino manager i have heard. i sure hope you get your money.

pevangel

 

[vinylweatherman]

JimS09,

Is this the only chat you had with them as I dont seem to notice them stating that your deposit will not be returned. However, I also fail to understand why they can confiscate anything even though they believe you are linked with a fraudulent group. No bonuses were taken and it's obvious this isnt money laundering if you deposit with $400 and win $3600. WTF?

Well, when a rep says

Laetitia: We share informations with other casinos and you are linked with a fraudulent group. Unfortunately as per our terms and conditions, your funds have been confiscated and your account has been locked.

anyone would take than as meaning the deposit as well, otherwise the rep would have said "your winnings have been confiscated and only your deposit will be refunded"

This may not necessarily be the case, it could be a slip-up (again) from their CS not making it clear what will happen.

If the OP has given us a true account of their actions (one account, deposit with no bonus, play slots, win & withdraw), I cannot see how they could have been considered as having had an unusual pattern of play. All I can think of is "money laundering", and perhaps they used a deposit method that looked as though they were not using their own money, and then expecting a withdrawal by a different means. Casinos can cross check the details held by the deposit method against those registered by the casino, and a mismatch will trigger a fraud audit as the money deposited may have been stolen.

In this case, the casino admits to having had some "problems" with players from Georgia, and then goes on to imply that the OP has been identified as one of these "problem players". THis looks like a fraud attack, and the possibility of innocent players getting caught up, but with the casino refusing to allow an appeal through internal channels, meaning it will be necessary to pursue this through the forum PAB service, which goes through Martyn to the appropriate persons at Red Flush. If Martyn does not reply early next week, it would be worth submitting a PAB towards the end of the week, which can be dealt with next month. This will also allow more time to see if the deposit is returned or not.

 

[pevangel]

so sorry i should have worded that different, what i mean is they have a little different of variety of slots. my apologies.

pevangel

 

[SlotMonster]

Still looking for the answer or comment from the rep.

 

[funky_seagull]

if this is true then the player central database shared by casinos, does exist. Which I think is out of order. And should be challenged for DPA reasons. Who do they think they are, equifax? How did said player deposit? Seems strange they didn't ask for some Id etc. If they were just going by information stored on a central database which shouldnt exist, that is bad practise... Would be nice to hear other side of the story. Maybe rep on holiday...?

 

[silcnlayc]

database shared by casinos,Which I think is out of order

Not necessarily...In real life this also holds true..I have a credit line at one casino and decided to change casinos and now I am offered credit lines at the others that are not related to each other (independantly owned) The reason I was offered this is because they "noted" I had a credit line at the other casinos and they stated that they can offer me the same terms as I have at the other casino in credit lines. This is NOT unusual.

This is their business to know. Just as online casinos must share some information (public knowledge), same goes for B&M casinos. I received a credit line offer from Dover Downs yesterday which actually surprised me....but I do not feel it is in violation of my privacy since I was the one putting my name, address and all out there for all to see....(casinos that is)

It is very simple thing to send out attractive promos to a street, neighborhood or even a city by looking it up on the city records and printing out a group of labels to the households. They get the name, address etc easily..it's PUBLIC knowledge...choose a name in your database, find where they live and send out promos to entire neighborhood...easy....

I challenge anyone to go online "google" yourselves and see what I mean..and how musch info there is about you...put in your phone and see where that leads you..you would be truly shocked..

I have unlisted everything..I never use my home phone for any online transactions...and I have made it so you cannot find me online or any personal info..so how did the casino "know" about my credit lines? The financial world works the same way..they might not tell you about the database they have but they "know" all about you. This is how they know if you are a cheater, con etc etc..your name IS there on a list..

Check your credit...see hop many check out your payment history, credit card offers etc...where do the get this info to see if you are a good or bad credit risk? From other institutions....your info is not SOLD to anyone, it is just "there" for them to "see". being in the banking, mortgage, real estate industry..I know this to be true..for many institutions..

Maybe rep on holiday...?

I was thinking the same thing....

 

[fortunelounge]

Red Flush Host

Firstly apologies for the delay in replying, unfortunately Martyn has been away for the last week.
In reponse to JimS09 's post, The above player was identified as a potentially high risk player by our risk department and based on certain criteria his account was locked. However we will be conducting a full investigation into the facts, and make the necassary refunds where applicable.

Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Red Flush Host

 

[winbig]

Firstly apologies for the delay in replying, unfortunately Martyn has been away for the last week.
In reponse to JimS09 's post, The above player was identified as a potentially high risk player by our risk department and based on certain criteria his account was locked. However we will be conducting a full investigation into the facts, and make the necassary refunds where applicable.

Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Red Flush Host

Please define "High Risk Player" - One that deposits with their own money, doesn't take a bonus, never had a charge back (To our knowledge?)

 

[JimS09]

Please define "High Risk Player" - One that deposits with their own money, doesn't take a bonus, never had a charge back (To our knowledge?)

Thank you. The only thing I did was deposit $400 and begun to play. I didn't wait or ask for anything. Just begun to play. And after hours of playing the next day my account was locked. No explanation or anything. You are right I never had a chargeback, never! Im dying of lung cancer and have about 8 month to a year. I live with my sister and have offer to provide my medical records to them. This is crazy.

 

[winbig]

Apparently, they define a high risk player as one that actually knows what they're doing, and are lucky enough to beat the 5+% HA on slots

 

[anniemac]

Just throwing this out there. You said you lived with your sister. Possibly does she have an account with this casino? Maybe that's where the flag comes up. Same address etc.

Just a thought.

I sincerely hope you get this all straightened out to your benefit.

 

[winbig]

Just throwing this out there. You said you lived with your sister. Possibly does she have an account with this casino? Maybe that's where the flag comes up. Same address etc.

Just a thought.

I sincerely hope you get this all straightened out to your benefit.

I hadn't thought of that, good guess

But the thing of it is, RF quoted "high risk player" instead of "multiple accounts".....should be interesting to find out what's going on.

Hopefully the RF rep hasn't deemed this as "closed" and quit reading this thread.

 

[catrina m]

I would also like to know why this situation is called high risk?

Are they at a high risk to pay. I had this casino downloaded and was ready to deposit but decided to do a search of red flush in the forum.

When I read this and another thread I uninstalled it.

Anyone who deposits and wins seems to be a high risk. I would PAB.

 

[sdaddy]

I don't know what "high risk" is a euphemism for either, but unless were talking about fraud here, then the casino has no right to confiscate this player's funds.

And even if, hypothetically, it does turn out the player is a fraudster, this case has already been mishandled, by first telling the player his funds have been confiscated before a "full investigation of the facts" has been completed.

 

[winbig]

I don't know what "high risk" is a euphemism for either, but unless were talking about fraud here, then the casino has no right to confiscate this player's funds.

And even if, hypothetically, it does turn out the player is a fraudster, this case has already been mishandled, by first telling the player his funds have been confiscated before a "full investigation of the facts" has been completed.

You're so right. That's like being "Guilty until proven innocent" , and/or going into a trial for your life, with the jury being pre-determined to vote "Guilty" before hearing your case.

 

[sublime9]

to pile on Redflush, Im not a fan at all. I recieved the cd mailer and free $ code last week, so I signed up and played but tried to play roulette but there was $1 limit on single # bets I dont know if they change that once you are a "loyal player" but thats pretty lame I think

 

[winbig]

to pile on Redflush, Im not a fan at all. I recieved the cd mailer and free $ code last week, so I signed up and played but tried to play roulette but there was $1 limit on single # bets I dont know if they change that once you are a "loyal player" but thats pretty lame I think

Especially since Roulette has a 5% HA as well as only counting for 2% of your WR...do the math

Classic Blackjack and all Roulettes count 2% towards wagering requirements

edit: Actually, it's 5.26% on single number bets.
reference:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

oh yea, can't forget about the $750 max cashout on free chips...

 

[vinylweatherman]

if this is true then the player central database shared by casinos, does exist. Which I think is out of order. And should be challenged for DPA reasons. Who do they think they are, equifax? How did said player deposit? Seems strange they didn't ask for some Id etc. If they were just going by information stored on a central database which shouldnt exist, that is bad practise... Would be nice to hear other side of the story. Maybe rep on holiday...?

While there is some justification for having a central credit reference database, there is a BIG difference. Equifax, and the like, are STRICTLY REGULATED, and have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to disclose, on request, ALL information they hold about an individual, and their history as reported by subscribing institutions. Further to this, they have the right to challenge the accuracy of any information that another institution has passed onto the central database, and force it either to be corrected, or to have their own "notice of correction" appended to it when data is supplied to a different company for ID and credit checking purposes.

This "casino shared database" is completely secret, and it a bit like our MI5, we all know it exists, but the government (until recently) would never publically admit that it, and it's sister MI6, existed.
There is NO MEANS for an aggrieved person to issue a disclosure request under the data protection act, which is something many countries give as a legal right, nor to have any correction applied where there is an innaccuracy. There have been past cases where these databases have thrown up a false positive, and further investigation has shown this to be the case.

Since the casino says the flag is for "POTENTIAL high risk", and not an absolute identification, then surely the actual actions of the player should show that there is a very good reason to believe this is a false positive, with the player NOT using a bonus, and playing only slots - your average "bread & butter" player for the casino.

Whenever there have been "fraud rings" in the past, they have involved hitting the sign-up bonuses through means of disguised multiple accounts, including using the IDs of other persons (with their agreement for a fee, or simply by hijacking them). These are usually detected when documents are requested, as often these do not match properly with other information that has been gathered during the registration and playing process. An example might be where the ID used is from one area, but the internet connection used to register & play is from somewhere else.
THIS player could have become caught up simply for living with his sister, which might be a different area (and thus IP address block) than the address registered with the casino. If his sister also plays casinos, this situation could have set many flags along the way, as they would be playing from the same address, but would be giving different address details on registration. This might make it look as though one person is using 2 separate IDs from the sister's address to play casinos. This would certainly trigger a "potentially high risk" flag, especially when the casino admits that they have already experienced "problems" with players from Georgia.

 

[tim5ny]

Microgaming and Trustworthy used to be synonomous terms way back when before the U.S. ban... but that's all changed.

 

[suzecat]

Ding! Ding! Ding! that's why the world hates Americans................

 

[slotplayer]

Microgaming and Trustworthy used to be synonomous terms way back when before the U.S. ban... but that's all changed.

So what you're saying is that MG has made a conscience decision to "bend integrity" because they lost significant revs from the USA?

 

[tim5ny]

So what you're saying is that MG has made a conscience decision to "bend integrity" because they lost significant revs from the USA?

I'm not saying anything about their games and the fairness thereof, but what I'm referring to is the once non-existent complaints about any MG casino not paying their winners did take a noticable turn. You'll never see these tactics at the good ones like 32Red, but there was a day when you never saw a complaint about non-payment at an MG casino...or if so, it was very rare. It has everything to do with the casino management and not the software.

 

[slotplayer]

I'm not saying anything about their games and the fairness thereof, but what I'm referring to is the once non-existent complaints about any MG casino not paying their winners did take a noticable turn. You'll never see these tactics at the good ones like 32Red, but there was a day when you never saw a complaint about non-payment at an MG casino...or if so, it was very rare. It has everything to do with the casino management and not the software.

As I understand it the casino licenses the software, so ultimately MG is responsible for those they grant licenses to which brings me back to my original point about bending integrity due to lost US revenues.

Whether the games are fair or not is open for debate.

 

[jas2587]

As I understand it the casino licenses the software, so ultimately MG is responsible for those they grant licenses to which brings me back to my original point about bending integrity due to lost US revenues.

Whether the games are fair or not is open for debate.

sorry wether the games are fair or not is always up for debate

Cindy

 

[winbig]

sorry wether the games are fair or not is always up for debate

Cindy

I think they meant in this thread. There's no need to hijack this thread to debate whether or not MG games are fair

 

[jas2587]

I think they meant in this thread. There's no need to hijack this thread to debate whether or not MG games are fair

I wasn't hijacking anything

Cindy

 

[maxd]

Guys ... don't turn this into a dust-up.