21casino refuse to pay out 20k

[antonypro]

Hello all,

I am looking to get some guidance from those who have walked this path more than I. To see what chances I actually have of receiving any of my winnings here. Any help would be so very welcome.

I played at this casino over the space of a few days. One of those few times I got quite lucky, and turned my 1000 into 22,000. (I played on roulette and slots, winning roughly equal amounts on each. No bonuses, as I don’t like the terms usually.) I withdrew, then I was asked for the obligatory documents which I gave them.

I then waited… and waited… then roughly 2 weeks later was given the same email to ask for documents. So I provided them again and was verified. Anxiety decreased now somewhat. Hopeful to receive my winnings.

I then had emails, literally as I was on live chat asking where my money was somewhat suspiciously, that all the withdrawals had bounced and to speak to my bank. Funny that, as no other withdrawals or deposits were being rejected by my bank.

They asked for documents once more, so I provided my bank statement once more for them to send it to. They agreed, and said the funds should be in my account in five days or so.

Fast forward three more days and I wake up to receive an email they have closed my account, per there terms and conditions of 13.2, and confiscated any winnings. They will pay back all my deposits of 2,800 in total, but confiscate the rest which was around 19,800.

They had initially given no indication of why they have reached this decision. Then after weeks, they stated, "We note that following a review of your account by our compliance and risk teams, it has become clear that you have used the casino in bad faith". I have no idea what this means. Does this mean they believe I was rigging the system in some way? I am almost at the ripe old age of 70 and can barely use a computer full stop.

Imagine investing money, or putting money in the bank, for the, to turn around and confiscate any money made. It is absurd.

I hasten to add, that after asking for documentation only for the withdrawal (not for deposits of course) they carried on accepting my custom. For weeks. Allowing me to gamble as much as I wanted. All whilst knowing that they could confiscate any winnings at will.

One mistake on my part was believing this money was safe. I had checked their rating on sites, plus saw they were licensed by the UKGC. So I ended up gambling another 18k away elsewhere, feeling safe in the knowledge I was still up.

I have since gone to Ecogra - their “unbiased” ADR - but I am still worried and sceptical, as there are financial links between the two companies. It has been 4 months since starting the complaints proceedings, and am awaiting a verdict from Ecogra. After loooking at the reviews on TrustPilot, amongst others here, I fear they will side with the casino.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can combat this? Is there anything I can do to gather a defence should the dispute come back as rejected? As you could imagine, this has been an arduous and nerve-wracking few months, and regardless of the outcome, a time I’d like to see the back of.

I later learnt, this casino is part of the White Hat Gaming group - notorious for being unfair and illegitimate. They have already been fined by the UKGC, but that has not stopped them from trying these tactics.

Please, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dunover]

Hello all,

I am looking to get some guidance from those who have walked this path more than I. To see what chances I actually have of receiving any of my winnings here. Any help would be so very welcome.

I played at this casino over the space of a few days. One of those few times I got quite lucky, and turned my 1000 into 22,000. (I played on roulette and slots, winning roughly equal amounts on each. No bonuses, as I don’t like the terms usually.) I withdrew, then I was asked for the obligatory documents which I gave them.

I then waited… and waited… then roughly 2 weeks later was given the same email to ask for documents. So I provided them again and was verified. Anxiety decreased now somewhat. Hopeful to receive my winnings.

I then had emails, literally as I was on live chat asking where my money was somewhat suspiciously, that all the withdrawals had bounced and to speak to my bank. Funny that, as no other withdrawals or deposits were being rejected by my bank.

They asked for documents once more, so I provided my bank statement once more for them to send it to. They agreed, and said the funds should be in my account in five days or so.

Fast forward three more days and I wake up to receive an email they have closed my account, per there terms and conditions of 13.2, and confiscated any winnings. They will pay back all my deposits of 2,800 in total, but confiscate the rest which was around 19,800.

They had initially given no indication of why they have reached this decision. Then after weeks, they stated, "We note that following a review of your account by our compliance and risk teams, it has become clear that you have used the casino in bad faith". I have no idea what this means. Does this mean they believe I was rigging the system in some way? I am almost at the ripe old age of 70 and can barely use a computer full stop.

Imagine investing money, or putting money in the bank, for the, to turn around and confiscate any money made. It is absurd.

I hasten to add, that after asking for documentation only for the withdrawal (not for deposits of course) they carried on accepting my custom. For weeks. Allowing me to gamble as much as I wanted. All whilst knowing that they could confiscate any winnings at will.

One mistake on my part was believing this money was safe. I had checked their rating on sites, plus saw they were licensed by the UKGC. So I ended up gambling another 18k away elsewhere, feeling safe in the knowledge I was still up.

I have since gone to Ecogra - their “unbiased” ADR - but I am still worried and sceptical, as there are financial links between the two companies. It has been 4 months since starting the complaints proceedings, and am awaiting a verdict from Ecogra. After loooking at the reviews on TrustPilot, amongst others here, I fear they will side with the casino.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can combat this? Is there anything I can do to gather a defence should the dispute come back as rejected? As you could imagine, this has been an arduous and nerve-wracking few months, and regardless of the outcome, a time I’d like to see the back of.

I later learnt, this casino is part of the White Hat Gaming group - notorious for being unfair and illegitimate. They have already been fined by the UKGC, but that has not stopped them from trying these tactics.

Please, any help would be greatly appreciated.

WHG used to be OK but I think there has been (possibly) some change of backers or ownership recently as their affiliate programme has been moved. I cannot remember the exact details.

They are a funny group regarding bonus abuse but you never took one but your deposit amounts aggregated would have triggered detailed KYC checks.

'Bad faith' can mean a lot of things. Winning or only depositing with bonuses, circumventing exclusion or Gamstop, betting patterns or winning at a sister casino and then not ever redepositing. At rogue casinos, it can simply be a cover-all to pay winners on a discretionary basis.

21casino were okay once, I used them and they paid reliably in 48 hours. But that was a while back. You need to ask specifically why they voided your winnings.

 

[mulven]

They are a funny group regarding bonus abuse but you never took one but your deposit amounts aggregated would have triggered detailed KYC checks.

Interestingly they seem to pay out and politely say you aren't welcome rather than confiscate in cases of bonus abuse. A confiscation from pure cash play sounds out of the ordinary. I feel like there must be some other factors at play here.

21casino were okay once, I used them and they paid reliably in 48 hours. But that was a while back. You need to ask specifically why they voided your winnings.

Whilst I haven't used them since the potential change, the last time I was active on WHG sites was 2023 before getting gubbed and they were still very reliable with their withdrawals and 48h is bang on.

Fast forward three more days and I wake up to receive an email they have closed my account, per there terms and conditions of 13.2, and confiscated any winnings. They will pay back all my deposits of 2,800 in total, but confiscate the rest which was around 19,800.

Getting a specific reason rather than just bad faith would definitely make it easier to figure out but take a look at what I wrote below and figure out if any of these reasons could apply to your situation, or that the casino could think apply to you for some reason.

Based on term 13.3, they will close the account and void winnings if any of the following are true (converted to images and only showing thumbnails for the sake of post height)

 

[Jono777]

These of the sort of things that UKGC should be looking at rather than SoW'ing £20 a week depositors or removing auto play etc.

Terms which can be interpreted as "We can remove your winnings on days we don't feel like paying out" need super scrutiny and casinos which use them FORCED to amend them and with no trick terms or unclear rules.

Need the full story here to comment further but I do hope you get your money.

 

[BillyGoldblum]

I used to play here. Seemed fine. I know they had a shit tonne of debt a few years ago.

 

[L&L-Jan]

Based on term 13.3, they will close the account and void winnings if any of the following are true (converted to images and only showing thumbnails for the sake of post height)

Sad. Could also impose a technical solution so that this term is not needed. But who I am....

 

[antonypro]

UPDATE


Thank you all for the replies. This has been an incredibly painful time, and to receive some support from other consumers has been incredibly helpful. I am sincerely grateful.

So, after 4 months of waiting for a reply from the ADR I finally got one, and it is not the outcome I was hoping for. They have sided with the operator, which is what I feared may happen due to those who have used ADR’s before me.

I will try to be as candid as possible, and will redact information where necessary, but hopefully can provide enough information for the reader to get the gist, and hopefully accurately assess the decision outside of my admittedly somewhat myopic and biased scope.

21Casino has provided the ADR with 3 main clauses from their T&C’s as follows, which is an update from the one “bad faith” clause initially:

(Anything in italics is either the casino or the ADR)


"4.1
By opening an account with us and/or by using the Website you acknowledge, agree and warrant that you:

• Are at least 18 years of age and above the legal age for gambling in the jurisdiction you are a resident;
• Are legally capable of entering into binding contracts;
• Have supplied all information when registering with the Website that is accurate and complete and will ensure that such information is kept updated throughout your use of the Website;
• Are resident at the address you provide us and are a resident in a territory that permits gambling to occur;
• Are resident in Great Britain;
• Have not excluded yourself from gambling on any sites on our network;
• Have a valid bank account or credit or debit card issued in your name or alternative payment method;
• You are the legitimate owner of the money you deposit and any money that you deposit into your account is not tainted with any illegality and does not originate from any illegal activity or source;
• Have no existing accounts registered by you on this Website;
• You are not playing or acting on behalf of somebody else or using a payment method which is not your own;
• Participation on the Website is for fun and not for financial-dependency (or similar) reasons; and
• Will comply with the Terms of Use at all times in relation to your use of the Website.

4.2
In the event of any of the warranties outlined in clause 4.1 (Registering Your Account) being false, your stake will be forfeited, and we shall not be obliged to pay any winnings. We may also report the matter to the police, parents (in relation to underage gambling) and the appropriate regulatory authority.



7.3 Withdrawals:
• No withdrawal will be processed and funds cannot be withdrawn from your account until: (i) Verification Checks have been satisfactorily completed; (ii) payments have been confirmed; and (iii) you have complied with any other withdrawal conditions, specific rules and promotional terms relating to your use of the Website and/or affecting your account (for example, any applicable bonus terms). Please note that Verification Checks include checks on your identity, age and place of residence.
• Should you wish to withdraw some or all of your balance you may select how much you wish to have paid back.
• All withdrawals will be paid back to the same payment method used to make a deposit on the account.
• The minimum withdrawal is £10. Should you have a balance less than the minimum withdrawal amount you may still withdraw the full balance by contacting Customer Support.
• All transactions shall be checked in order to prevent money laundering. We shall report any suspicious transactions to the relevant competent authorities in the uk and/or the country you are based in. If you become aware of any suspicious activity relating to any of the games or anything relating to the Website, you must report this to us immediately. We may suspend, block or close an account and withhold funds if requested to do so in accordance with applicable law.
• Enhanced due diligence may be done in respect of withdrawals of funds not used for wagering.”


Ecogra have kept their outcome brief with:


Bearing the above in mind we are confident 21 Casino acted in line with clause 4.1, 4.2 and 7.3 of their Terms and Conditions, when they closed Mr. P’s account, voided his

winnings and returned his deposits as 21 Casino found Mr. P to be linked to another consumer by multiple variants who is registered on Gamstop. Therefore, no further funds

are due to Mr P.

The terms and conditions were found to be clear, fair, and transparent.

PRELIMINARY RESOLUTION

This is the initial decision after a review of all the information and evidence submitted by both parties to the dispute.

The operator acted in line with clause 4.1, 4.2 and 7.3 of their Terms and Conditions, when they closed the consumers account, voided his winnings and returned his deposits as the

operator found the consumer to be linked to another consumer by multiple variants who is registered on Gamstop. Therefore, no further funds are due to the consumer.

Should you have evidence to the contrary, please submit it within the next seven days and we will investigate further. In the absence of having received such evidence, the dispute

will be closed in accordance with this preliminary ruling.


They have stated that I am linked to another consumer “by multiple variants who is registered on Gamstop”. The only thing I can think of, is that when I deposited I used my joint bank account with my son. We are both named parties, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions that states I can’t use a joint bank account. The ONLY reason I use this account, is to avoid gambling transactions flagging up on my account with my wife.

Perhaps I should not have been untruthful in this area, and this is karma for hiding my gambling from my wife, however she does not like me to gamble for her own religious reasons, and when I do want to have the occasional flutter now and again, it is much easier to use a separate account.

I have spoken to my son, who has vehemently denied being on Gamstop. But is there anyway for me to check personally? As it seems he must be if this is the clause they are pointing to.

Despite all of the above, there is nothing in the terms that states I can’t gamble from a joint account with another person who is on Gamstop. And I also don’t understand the, “multiple variant” aspect, and this is the only single variant of connection with me and someone else who is or is not on Gamstop. I have jumped through every hoop they laid down. I have provided my passport, my driving licence, my proof of residential address (completely different to my sons) selfies, etc. They know who I am, and that I am the registered account holder. Yet they are using someone else’s alleged consumer protection in Gamstop, to punish me by confiscating my winnings. I have always used a joint bank account to gamble, and this is the only time it has been flagged.

They have stated, alongside the report:


Dear Mr P,

Please refer to the attached report for the details and preliminary outcome of the dispute.

Should you have evidence to the contrary, please submit it to us within the next seven days and we will investigate further.

In the absence of having received such evidence, the dispute will be closed in accordance with this preliminary ruling.

Please note this is a preliminary ruling and any further evidence submitted by you will be reviewed prior to closing of the dispute to ensure accuracy of this reported ruling.

Kind regards,

Gregg


Do I have a case? Or am I just chasing a lost cause now? They have asked me to provide evidence to the contrary, but I am scratching my head as to what they want. And I only have a week to respond. If anyone could help me in framing a response, or has any ideas of evidence to provide, any help would be so greatly appreciated.

Warm wishes,
Tony

 

[mulven]

Since it was a cash win rather than a bonus abuse issue I had a suspicion it had to be related to self exclusion clauses. My only other theory was that you were playing roulette on another casino at the same time, same table.

From the casino's point of view, it looks like a pretty clear cut case of self exclusion circumventing via a parent's accounts/identity. The transactions weren't stopped because it was a different name/address but once they saw a matching name on the statements any potential suspicions were confirmed.

I have spoken to my son, who has vehemently denied being on Gamstop. But is there anyway for me to check personally? As it seems he must be if this is the clause they are pointing to.

Ask him to sign up to a uk casino in front of you and see if he gets automatically banned. If he's lying he'll probably try to avoid doing it as he knows what will happen.

I'll be honest and admit I have my doubts about the story now, with further context, especially due to the fact that 18k was gambled away elsewhere as that sounds like the behaviour of a self excluded son rather than a more relaxed player such as yourself. It feels like the most likely thing to have happened is the son gambled away money in the joint account (especially if large sums were transferred prior to play) using your identity and now you are working together to try and make the best of the situation OR potentially the son is doing everything including these posts and trying to get that win back through any means necessary. Of course everything you said could be the truth and I hope its not rude to suggest otherwise but if I'm having doubt creep in slightly then you can only imagine what the ADR and the casino think.

Do I have a case? Or am I just chasing a lost cause now? They have asked me to provide evidence to the contrary, but I am scratching my head as to what they want. And I only have a week to respond. If anyone could help me in framing a response, or has any ideas of evidence to provide, any help would be so greatly appreciated.

Without seeing the bank statements I don't know how bad the evidence looks, if its just the fact that its in both your names and their are no suggestive transactions in/out then thats not bad as it could be. As far as evidence, they are convinced the son signed up as the dad so you'd have to prove otherwise. I'm not even sure this would be allowable evidence but if you played on a computer connected to home broadband and your son was far away from you (verifiably with timestamps) then maybe that would be something.

 

[Subyzero]

Seeing this type of post , reminds me why i gamble so small and just for fun. From over 3 years ago i was understand that the casino industry have a new point of getting earnings.
Is not about rigged games or RTp's , it is just pure and evil ways to DENY PLAYER WINNINGS.
So first of all let's look "cold" to the issue and use logical thinking:
1. Do the OP used a different name from his ID? Assumming the answer is NO (reading his posts) then what imply this? Well if he was registered with GAMESTOP , then 21 casino failed to comply with the regulations , by letting him register and DEPOSIT on the site. Question: Who's fault is then?
2. So as i understand 21 casino is UKGC liceensed . Assuming that somehow he was listed on GameStop and he used his real name and identification on the 21 Casino , DO UKGC have a rule on their releasing liceense , that empower the casino(liceense holder) to VOID player winnings?(i have no ideea so i am asking). Using a simple logical sense , it will be kinda funny.
And i know a lot of you wil lsay :" Well the T&C of the casino". Not really. Despite we are in a era of technology and information , some people fall to this trap. If 21 Casino is liceensed under the UKGC , then the casino T&C CANNOT BREAK THE LAWS OF THAT COUNTRY.PERIOD!!!!
For all of you who thinks that casino (liceensed especially in UK) can impose RULES from SPACE , then make this exercide: Open a cafe shop let's say , and at the entrance put a rule that you don't give exchange to 20 £ notes. Let's say 10 customers do not see your T&C , you enforce the rule and you don't give them the exchange invocing your T&C. If 5 people report you to anykind of authorithy , what do you think it will happen?
I strongly recomend the OP , IF he was not on gamestop to either contact GStop and ask for his file , and definetly get a solicitor and burn their "asses"

 

[mulven]

I strongly recomend the OP , IF he was not on gamestop to either contact GStop and ask for his file , and definetly get a solicitor and burn their "asses"

The fathers identity was never on gamstop. The son is but is saying he wasn't. The win was on the fathers account.

 

[hattrick]

UPDATE

Why did you not create a separate bank account for your own gambling? Why do you have a joint bank account with your son if I may ask? It sounds very suspicious to me personally, so I can somehow see how it may have been suspicious to the casino as well - especially because casinos themselves are way more suspicious than players and probably for correct reasons. That said, countless casinos are sham or scam operations, so I can imagine them actively trying to scam you.

 

[Subyzero]

Why did you not create a separate bank account for your own gambling? Why do you have a joint bank account with your son if I may ask? It sounds very suspicious to me personally, so I can somehow see how it may have been suspicious to the casino as well - especially because casinos themselves are way more suspicious than players and probably for correct reasons. That said, countless casinos are sham or scam operations, so I can imagine them actively trying to scam you.

Don't get me wrong mate , but your questions regarding the bank account is out of the space too. We are living in a democracy, and people in the past died for you to have this democracy. There should be no such questions in this matter, especially that a casino is not HMRC .

 

[jasonuk]

It's somewhat telling in your substantial introduction of the situation you seem to leave out most of the pertinent information about your complaint - instead electing to lash out at the casino and ADR.

So to summarise:

• The father, who is "almost at the ripe old age of 70 and can barely use a computer full stop"
• The son, who is believed to be on GAMSTOP
• A deposit of £1000 and a win of £21k (£22k balance), of which £18k was subsequently gambled away elsewhere before the withdrawal was completed.
• A joint account between the two, who live at different addresses - an unusual combination but they do exist.
• The CDD request, which is triggered some time between the last deposit (which being £1000 [1], and also £2800 cumulative [2]) and withdrawal [3] - because we have three triggers in quick succession, so this isn't purely a withdrawal trigger as the OP alleges.
• The OP (which could be either person), who:
  • Has been waiting "four months" for a resolution, but the very next day has it. It should be noted four months is an incredibly long time to be waiting... and usually for the most complicated cases (which this isn't).
  • Hasn't read the terms of their ADR - because posting about it publicly while being adjudicated on is frowned upon.
  • Seems to have an opinion on the casino, their parent company, the ADR and the UKGC - which suggests someone more familiar with the industry.
  • Has "always used a joint bank account to gamble, and this is the only time it has been flagged" - which would run contrary to the mountain of evidence of people having problems with joint accounts, and that involved partners (the most common type) and neither are self-excluded.

And thus we have the two narratives - one believing the account holder is the father, and one believing the account holder is the son.

===

So the reasons for having a separate account for gambling transactions makes sense, but your assertion regarding joint back accounts doesn't seem plausible. The gambling landscape has changed considerably in the past five years, and with the increased focus on AML (anti-money laundering) regulations, casinos and businesses are very picky about commingled (pooled) funds.

Thinking back to recent threads, there are a limited number of casinos that will explicitly allow a joint account - and they will impose additional hoops of verification. The rest will either implicitly or explicitly state that joint accounts are not allowed - and a violation of those terms can result in winnings and/or deposits forfeit.

I'd also disagree with your assertion regarding the terms and conditions, because the sections you have quoted include:

• Have not excluded yourself from gambling on any sites on our network;
• You are the legitimate owner of the money you deposit and any money that you deposit into your account is not tainted with any illegality and does not originate from any illegal activity or source;
• You are not playing or acting on behalf of somebody else or using a payment method which is not your own;

The "using a payment method which is not your own" isn't explicit enough for my tastes, but can be what sites use to push back against joint accounts. However even if they permitted that, the funding is tainted by a person on GAMSTOP - which causes red flags immediately.

This is compounded by subsequent actions - where the "father" has deposited £2800, but pre-spent £18k (90%) of the winnings... that sounds less like a person who "wants to have the occasional flutter now and again" and more addictive in nature. I would agree with @mulven above, this sounds more likely that the son is impersonating the father - whether at the casino, or at all stages including this thread.

Sadly, self-exclusion fraud is rife in the gambling industry - and that includes people impersonating family members to get around self-exclusions. Historically, the rules tended to be kinder to customers in this situation, but with the amount of SE fraud those rules have tightened up considerably.

The father could ask

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for more information on how the program works, although due to data protection laws the son would need to request his own records (which if he is in denial about being on GAMSTOP, he may refuse to do).

Regarding ADR, if the son is on GAMSTOP then I don't think you have much of a case - the funds are automatically tainted because of the joint account, and you'd need to prove the negative that the son wasn't involved at any point.

Finally... If the son is the one doing all this, then you need to

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- pre-spending nearly twenty grand of winnings isn't normal, being willing to commit fraud by impersonating family members isn't normal...

 

[jasonuk]

Is not about rigged games or RTp's , it is just pure and evil ways to DENY PLAYER WINNINGS.

Promising start to a neutral take on the matter...

So first of all let's look "cold" to the issue and use logical thinking:
1. Do the OP used a different name from his ID? Assumming the answer is NO (reading his posts) then what imply this? Well if he was registered with GAMESTOP , then 21 casino failed to comply with the regulations , by letting him register and DEPOSIT on the site. Question: Who's fault is then?

There are two different people involved, the "father" is the one with the account, the son is the one on GAMSTOP (no E).

2. So as i understand 21 casino is UKGC liceensed . Assuming that somehow he was listed on GameStop and he used his real name and identification on the 21 Casino , DO UKGC have a rule on their releasing liceense , that empower the casino(liceense holder) to VOID player winnings?(i have no ideea so i am asking). Using a simple logical sense , it will be kinda funny.

Yes, the UKGC mandate that winnings are voided when there is evidence of an excluded player.

And i know a lot of you wil lsay :" Well the T&C of the casino". Not really. Despite we are in a era of technology and information , some people fall to this trap. If 21 Casino is liceensed under the UKGC , then the casino T&C CANNOT BREAK THE LAWS OF THAT COUNTRY.PERIOD!!!!

... and they haven't, self-exclusion fraud works because the information is asymmetric. The customer triggered both deposit and withdrawal CDD checks in quick succession, and those flagged up the problem - the casino would not be aware of the joint account until that point, and thus would not be able to act.

A joint account between father and son isn't that common, and even less for one to be used for gambling purposes.

I strongly recomend the OP , IF he was not on gamestop to either contact GStop and ask for his file , and definetly get a solicitor and burn their "asses"

Yea, good luck with that...

Don't get me wrong mate , but your questions regarding the bank account is out of the space too. We are living in a democracy, and people in the past died for you to have this democracy. There should be no such questions in this matter, especially that a casino is not HMRC .

Couldn't be more wrong... AML concerns are a significant part of financial law in the UK, EU and other countries. All businesses have a duty under the law to vet their counterparties for potential money laundering.

After all, in this case they've clearly found something that doesn't smell right... so this isn't the slam dunk you think it is.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Don't get me wrong mate , but your questions regarding the bank account is out of the space too. We are living in a democracy, and people in the past died for you to have this democracy. There should be no such questions in this matter, especially that a casino is not HMRC .

Our versions of democracy probably differ but what has that got to do with this issue?

 

[mulven]

Our versions of democracy probably differ but what has that got to do with this issue?

Isn't it obvious, Jimbob McGrunty died in world war 2 for my right to gamble away the last of my son's savings on £400 bonus buys.

 

[nfehily]

Why did you not create a separate bank account for your own gambling? Why do you have a joint bank account with your son if I may ask? It sounds very suspicious to me personally, so I can somehow see how it may have been suspicious to the casino as well - especially because casinos themselves are way more suspicious than players and probably for correct reasons. That said, countless casinos are sham or scam operations, so I can imagine them actively trying to scam you.

As soon as I read “joint account with my son” it was case closed. Don’t care what the reason is, but having a joint account with a son is reason enough to have my spidey senses tingling