forgotlogin vs BitStarz

I get what you're saying, but I feel kind of uneasy about it as a general principle. Imagine if you had a court of law, and one side was allowed to present their arguments to the judge or jury without the other side even knowing what the information was, with no ability to either question the accuracy of that information or provide a reasonable explanation?

Casinos themselves are not always completely honest, and even if they are, can make mistakes. Even when there are no blatant lies, people can fudge some details out of either sloppiness or lacking honesty - sometimes those minor details end up being important. It seems like it's asking a lot out of the arbitrator to determine both the accuracy of the information they've been provided and that there's no reasonable explanation for it - it seems like in many cases determining whether the information was accurate would not be possible at all, unless one side is simply given the benefit of the doubt.

Do you have examples of the types of things that may fall under the category, and the limits of it? Specific examples may not be possible to provide because you don't want to give fraudsters information on how not to get caught, but just the general nature of the types of information we're talking about.
Yes, it's a question of disclosure and the burden of proof is nowhere near as high as in a criminal court.
MaxD has done multitudes of PABs in his time and knows if he's being fed BS by either party.
Therefore he can liaise between them, giving the complainant the nature of the information held without being too expansive - I'm sure it's a fine line to tread and I'm glad we have an expert here. Remember he will have seen the type of information before and unlike us will know how it's obtained or identified behind the scenes and therefore the veracity of it. I haven't a clue why this case has occurred specifically but at least there's a line of communication available via Homerbert and MaxD and it's in neither of their interests to be anything other than straight.
 
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But it would be ok if your lawyer was able to view the evidence.

You would have to trust him.

In this case Casinomeister (Max, Bryan) are the lawyer, so the OP needs to trust them.

It would be pretty daft for a casino to post on a public forum, how someone has committed attempted fraud at their Casino.

No, that wouldn't make any difference so long as your lawyer wont relay the information to you. You still can't defend yourself against the accusations, and neither can the lawyer if he doesn't get to ask you if the accusations are true. The casino also has a financial incentive in lying here; €40,000.

And nobody is asking them to post it on a public forum, the OP just wants the information himself. He even offered to delete the thread if they told him why they took his money. Perhaps he would accept the loss if they just told him what he did wrong? Because right now, it's just "we took your 40 grand and we wont tell you why. We're going to tell CM why, but you wont know what we say so you can't disprove it if we lie (which we have an incentive to do).

I haven't been here very long so perhaps I'm just too much of a skeptic/cynic, but the fact that they wont under any circumstances tell the victim why they (allegedly) stole all his money just raises red flags to me. Let's say he is a never-do-well, I still don't see why they couldn't just tell him what he did wrong, without revealing how they found out. The process just sounds very Judge Judy-esque to a newbie like me, except the victim doesn't even get to hear what he's being accused of.
 
But what you're asking is for them to tell him how he got caught out.

No sane business is going to do that.

If you catch someone money laundering (and I'm not saying that's what's happened here, it's just an example), you cannot by law (here) tell the person concerned your suspicions. You must complete the transaction, otherwise it's classed as tipping off. An investigation then takes place, and if a crime has been committed, laws take over.
 
No, that wouldn't make any difference so long as your lawyer wont relay the information to you. You still can't defend yourself against the accusations, and neither can the lawyer if he doesn't get to ask you if the accusations are true. The casino also has a financial incentive in lying here; €40,000.

And nobody is asking them to post it on a public forum, the OP just wants the information himself. He even offered to delete the thread if they told him why they took his money. Perhaps he would accept the loss if they just told him what he did wrong? Because right now, it's just "we took your 40 grand and we wont tell you why. We're going to tell CM why, but you wont know what we say so you can't disprove it if we lie (which we have an incentive to do).

I haven't been here very long so perhaps I'm just too much of a skeptic/cynic, but the fact that they wont under any circumstances tell the victim why they (allegedly) stole all his money just raises red flags to me. Let's say he is a never-do-well, I still don't see why they couldn't just tell him what he did wrong, without revealing how they found out. The process just sounds very Judge Judy-esque to a newbie like me, except the victim doesn't even get to hear what he's being accused of.

I think this is right if a casino claim a term or condition has been broken it is only fair that the customer is informed which term or condition was broken, not how they discovered the breach.

edit: just to add from re reading the opening post, the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street and he claimed never to have taken a bonus, so that rules out bonus abuse???
 
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I think this is right if a casino claim a term or condition has been broken it is only fair that the customer is informed which term or condition was broken, not how they discovered the breach.

edit: just to add from re reading the opening post, the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street and he claimed never to have taken a bonus, so that rules out bonus abuse???

The Rep mentioned fraud, which trumps any term or condition.
 
The Rep mentioned fraud, which trumps any term or condition.

will be interesting to see what happens next, I keep an open mind on these matters, as a player if I'd had $40,000 confiscated I'd like to know why, if it's fraud the casino can for example still say 'we believe you've committed identity fraud' they don't have to say how it was detected. money laundering or using stolen funds' type of fraud should be a matter for the police.
 
will be interesting to see what happens next, I keep an open mind on these matters, as a player if I'd had $40,000 confiscated I'd like to know why, if it's fraud the casino can for example still say 'we believe you've committed identity fraud' they don't have to say how it was detected. money laundering or using stolen funds' type of fraud should be a matter for the police.

You could take them to court then they would have to supply the information. For 40k, if I was sure I was right, I would!
 
It’s a hard one for all concerned including the adjudicator ( I think someone said it was max)

If the outcome is not favourable to the OP then I’m guessing...

Max won’t be able to say anything
The casino won’t be able to say anything
The OP will be none the wiser
We will be none the wiser
And everyone sits there wondering what it was...

My thoughts on it are: the “ allegations” are something of a sinister nature because the rep ( and this is not by any means meant as a dig at them) but seemed quite sure of themselves and considering the amounts involved and the “ Initial accusation “ posted against the casino, this didn’t ring true.

That said on the flip side I don’t think the OP would have posted and argued so vehemently if they had done something obviously wrong or fraudulent...
and if it was a bonus or T and C breach then I don’t think it would be so “ cloak and dagger “

So to surmise...

Not a fucking scooby what’s going on but it would be good for all concerned if there was a generic non specific way that someone could give us an incling as to what’s happened to cause the issue! Cos we are all nosey
 
You could take them to court then they would have to supply the information. For 40k, if I was sure I was right, I would!

I think you'd have to, but as this casino is licensed out of curacao not sure how you would go about that, [bitcoin is another part of this case that rings alarm bells for me.] would confiscation of winnings and deposits etc.. happen under ukgc governance?
 
I think you'd have to, but as this casino is licensed out of curacao not sure how you would go about that, [bitcoin is another part of this case that rings alarm bells for me.] would confiscation of winnings and deposits etc.. happen under ukgc governance?

It would if its a breach in terms, fraud or AML. But customer could still take them to court and win there if the win is legit.
 
To all doubters and OP's right defenders to know why:

FYI, Vitali has clearly posted that the OP asked him twice to reveal the details how they reached their decision and he offered to have this thread deleted (which Bryan will not do). Plus, Vitali has been long enough in this industry to know what he sees. Remember he also helped to get cases solved in players' favour.

And last but not least, OP has still not filed a PAB. If someone is so adamant that he is in the right, why wait days to file a simple PAB? :confused:

I am 99.99% sure he won't because he knows he's been caught and doing a PAB will just make it clearer.

EDIT: He was online just a few hours ago and no PAB filed.
 
It would if its a breach in terms, fraud or AML. But customer could still take them to court and win there if the win is legit.

so if a person has say £2,000 deposited in their balance and £500 winnings, but they've breached one of the terms, the casino would confiscate the balance and close the account?

edit: I could understand in a case of fraud or money laundering the casino would confiscate deposits in order to pass onto the police/ukgc as its possibly proceeds of crime.
 
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the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street

hmm, reminds me of my town. some bright sparks amongst the council decided to come upwith a project, to attach a picture to a lampost on some streets here, sort of a way to show the different varieties of characters, or freaks, who live in the town, picking one person walking through the street while they waited in a vehicle to capture someone uniquely different to display.
Whatever idiots did this while waiting for a victim, decided it would be a good idea to take a pic of me walking towards them in my street, with an unkept beard, bad hair day, and during the only 30 minutes of my entire bloody life I've ever also happened to be wearing a bloody pink jumper (borrowed from someone!) . bastards!
 
Hey people!

Sorry, maybe I was not clear with my statements (I have that, if I understand something, I always think everyone understand it too).

1) This is not a question of bonuses and regular confiscations reasons. It's more about fraud and crime, therefore we do not want to post any info in public.

2) When we confiscate money for breaching bonus terms, for creating many accounts etc etc - we always inform customer. But in some cases, as Harry explained here, we simply can't share some information and some conclusions, because it can cause damage to us.

3) As was told, customer can feel free to PAB, or contact Curacao, or submit complaint anywhere he wants.

4) Re some kind of verification where you asked selfie outside street. It's strange one, I agree, but believe me - it's asked for about 0.001% player database in pretty much hard and really suspicious cases. No one in clear mind will make such request for average player, no worries pls.

Wish you all great start of the day!

Br,

V.
 
Just an aside

Can the OP not trigger a subject access request and therefore gain all info the casino has on him anyway ?

I find this very interesting and although I may be being naive I wonder if OPs message to get some information in exchange for remove thread was to attempt to get some information to move it on... he didn’t promise not to open another thread afterwards !?
 
For the record, one of the big problems with the UKGC's ADR system was or is that dodgy players could request sensitive information and make spurious complaints in order to gain intelligence on methods used to identify their actions.
 
You simply don't give fraudster any details whatsoever as they will just refine their tactics and means to do better next time.
I get what you're saying, but it just makes no sense as long as we're just talking about what crime he commit without going into any further detail. He's not going to gain any new information if he really did do it. If he commit a crime, it's not like he did it by accident, you with me?

Everybody here just seems to take for granted that the casino is telling the truth. Entertain the thought for 1 second, what if the casino is lying here in an attempt to pocket 40 grand? If you were in the victim's shoes here and you know 100% you didn't commit fraud, how would you feel if the abusive casino just referred to a rule that says they can ban you for any reason? And then agreeing to tell others what crimes you commit so that you can't defend yourself, when you know for certain that you're not a criminal? You'd feel powerless.

And I don't doubt the expertise of the PAB-experts, but they can't make a neutral judgement with only one side of the story.
 
Just an aside

Can the OP not trigger a subject access request and therefore gain all info the casino has on him anyway ?

I find this very interesting and although I may be being naive I wonder if OPs message to get some information in exchange for remove thread was to attempt to get some information to move it on... he didn’t promise not to open another thread afterwards !?

A SAR wouldn't cover this
 
to update this thread, and judging by homerberts comments, the ONLY thing i can conclude is they are taking my past history into consideration for a reason not to pay.
i have a fraud conviction which was over 7 years ago but still in public domain.
homerbert, is it regarding this? because we both know i have not done anything wrong regarding my deposits, play or use of the bitstarz website.

regarding pab, still hesitant to file as i dont trust the information bitstarz would provide, and the process seems biased to me
 
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I get what you're saying, but it just makes no sense as long as we're just talking about what crime he commit without going into any further detail. He's not going to gain any new information if he really did do it. If he commit a crime, it's not like he did it by accident, you with me?

Everybody here just seems to take for granted that the casino is telling the truth. Entertain the thought for 1 second, what if the casino is lying here in an attempt to pocket 40 grand? If you were in the victim's shoes here and you know 100% you didn't commit fraud, how would you feel if the abusive casino just referred to a rule that says they can ban you for any reason? And then agreeing to tell others what crimes you commit so that you can't defend yourself, when you know for certain that you're not a criminal? You'd feel powerless.

And I don't doubt the expertise of the PAB-experts, but they can't make a neutral judgement with only one side of the story.

FTR, PAB means that Max will listen to both sides. But if a casino can provide clear information, proof, protocols etc that clearly point to what happened, there isn't much one can do.

No, we are not taking anything for granted. In general, we side with an OP first until we see how the story goes, after all everyone here is a player.

But you always seem very biased against a casino. Do you know how much fraud or attempted fraud happens at online casinos? Casinos have separate departments just for fraud detection and it still happens.

And no, I would not give a dime of details/information in a public forum or to the alleged fraudster. No way as it could give away what methods I use to detect the attempted fraud.
 
to update this thread, and judging by homerberts comments, the ONLY thing i can conclude is they are taking my past history into consideration for a reason not to pay.
i have a fraud conviction which was over 7 years ago but still in public domain.
homerbert, is it regarding this? because we both know i have not done anything wrong regarding my deposits, play or use of the bitstarz website.

regarding pab, still hesitant to file as i dont trust the information bitstarz would provide, and the process seems biased to me
Hey!

Like I've repeated to you many times - you can PAB.

Br,

V.
 
FTR, PAB means that Max will listen to both sides. But if a casino can provide clear information, proof, protocols etc that clearly point to what happened, there isn't much one can do.

No, we are not taking anything for granted. In general, we side with an OP first until we see how the story goes, after all everyone here is a player.

But you always seem very biased against a casino. Do you know how much fraud or attempted fraud happens at online casinos? Casinos have separate departments just for fraud detection and it still happens.

And no, I would not give a dime of details/information in a public forum or to the alleged fraudster. No way as it could give away what methods I use to detect the attempted fraud.

The point is though, that the player can't really clear himself if he don't know what he's being accused of.

And I'm certainly not biased against the casinos, I can link you to multiple comments where I defend casinos. Here's one: Leovegas balance wiped. And I don't even play on LeoVegas. I might seem biased when compared to most users on this site for being 50/50 and not always believing the casino. I, for one, believe in innocent until proven guilty (and no, not letting the victim defend himself against accusations doesn't count as "proven").

I also keep repeating that I don't think they should give further details either. Letting him (not the forum, just him) know why his money was taken doesn't give him any information of how he got caught. To people here, a site filled with affiliates who rely on these sites for their livelihood, this might seem fair. But as somebody neutral who hasn't been here very long, who's used to how it works in the real world (and who recently came out of a 7 month trial), the process appears extremely biased. If I wasn't allowed to hear and defend myself against the things my ex said about me, I wouldn't have my son today. And the excuse you repeat simply doesn't hold up. All criminals get to know what they're charged of, just the basic knowledge of what crime it is doesn't give them advantages IF they really did do it. Because if they did it, they'd already know what the crime was.
 
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The point is though, that the player can't really clear himself if he don't know what he's being accused of.

And I'm certainly not biased against the casinos, I can link you to multiple comments where I defend casinos. Here's one: Leovegas balance wiped. And I don't even play on LeoVegas. I might seem biased when compared to most users on this site for being 50/50 and not always believing the casino. I, for one, believe in innocent until proven guilty (and no, not letting the victim defend himself against accusations doesn't count as "proven").

I also keep repeating that I don't think they should give further details either. Letting him (not the forum, just him) know why his money was taken doesn't give him any information of know how he got caught. To people here, a site filled with affiliates who rely on these sites for their livelihood, this might seem fair. But as somebody neutral who hasn't been here very long, who's used to how it works in the real world (and who recently came out of a 7 month trial), the process appears extremely biased. If I wasn't allowed to hear and defend myself against the things my ex said about me, I wouldn't have my son today. And the excuse you repeat simply doesn't hold up. All criminals get to know what they're charged of, just the basic knowledge of what crime it is doesn't give them advantages IF they really did do it. Because if they did it, they'd already know what the crime was.

He has been charged for breaking the terms of the casino. Not sure they pointed to the exact paragraph but that is what they claim and are happy for Max to look into it.

That is a ton more any other Curacao casino would have offered. Usually, you get not a single word and there is little if anything you can do. The OP seems to be in Europe, so maybe registering with / playing at an MGA or UKGC casino would be a wise move.
 
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