RTG return to player percentages

[RobWin]

Affiliate managers, support, marketing people etc., should not have access to the numero uno's backend account. It seems that in this casino situation, he was allowed access. So no, he should not have had this sort of access since this has the capability to be abused.

First of all, thanks for your response Bryan. Now, where you say above that access such as this "has the capability to be abused"...what exactly do you mean by "abused"? Do you mean that he (Casinojack) could have in fact tweaked the RTP percentages from the casinos backend on his own without having RTG involved as the original poster alluded to or do you mean something totally different by the word "abused"?

I removed the screenshot as requested by RTG.

Well, at least we know that RTG does take the time to read through the threads here then...

There are press releases, and then there are statements made from individuals at the executive level.

Exactly, a lot of us have heard other individuals and executives over the years from Microgaming such as "Roger Raatgever" make public statements and release press PR and we all know who he is there and what his title is and what he does. The problem with RTG over the years has been all the BS Cloak & Dagger type of PR and veiled statements though. You never hear of these guys using any given name such as the example I made above.

I understood that when they were in fact operating out of Atlanta, GA off of Roswell Rd. and I too know a couple of the peeps there as I have personally met them myself when that area was my old stomping ground so to speak. But now that they are located outside of the USA, I don't really see the need any longer for all the Cloak & Dagger they were accustomed to dispelling before. Just my opinion of course in my quest for more transparency within this industry.

but I don't ask to do this if I feel it's not important specifically who said what.

I guess on a matter such as this then, 'where RTG are unequivocally stating that the RTP percentages cannot be changed by the casino operator themselves on their end' then I would have to agree to disagree with you. Since I do think that issue is a huge one and I personally would think that RTG would want that to be clear to all players with absolute clarity and not being subject to conditions or exceptions! Thus my reasoning on why a name and title from RTG should be attached to a statement such as that one.

I respect their positions and exchange as much information that they are willing to share.

I understand the position you are in, but I cannot respect the fact that they are not willing to be more transparent by wanting to substantiate a statement such as that one with a name, title or even at the very least the position of the company rep there that made that statement. That is absolutely no more than we ask of each other here when one of the forum members makes a statement or claim to something...as you well know, everybody and their brother here jumps on that band wagon and then tells them to back up their statement or claim with proof.

The members of the forum and the visitors of this website have the choice to take it or leave it. It's as simple as that.

Of course that's true but still I would hope you too would want more creditable transparency in this industry as well Bryan, unless I am misunderstanding you here.

Again, this has nothing to do with you and your credibility and honesty Bryan but rather RTG's statement of what can and cannot be done on the operators end.

Going back to your previous post HERE you state "From another operator:" this quote....

If I remember correctly when they first introduced the Real Series Slots way back when the Casino could adjust the settings of the slots in the admin. It then informed RTG and the changes were made. I believe now, as you say, it has to be done via a direct request to RTG.

Now, did RTG dispute or agree with that red highlighted statement above from the operator you received that quote from? And if they did, then when exactly did RTG change that to where the casino operators could not tweak the RTP settings on the casinos end?

Therefore, Casino Jacks slip of the tongue leaves many of us wondering just how many are doing this but are smart enough not to blab it openly to the playing community.

That's the thing. You just don't know.

I thought we did know now that the RTP percentages can only be changed by a request sent to RTG itself from the casino operator as you stated (someone) at RTG told you here... Are you saying something else now?

Once these are set - they are set. If an operator wishes to have these changed, he has to request this change via RTG. Approval process can take days, but may be shorter depending on the circumstances.

Now it's pretty clear that the RTP can be changed under certain circumstances

But only by RTG themselves...correct?
____
____

 

[Mavin1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavin1
Therefore, Casino Jacks slip of the tongue leaves many of us wondering just how many are doing this but are smart enough not to blab it openly to the playing community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casinomeister
That's the thing. You just don't know.

I thought we did know now that the RTP percentages can only be changed by a request sent to RTG itself from the casino operator as you stated (someone) at RTG told you here... Are you saying something else now?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Casinomeister
Once these are set - they are set. If an operator wishes to have these changed, he has to request this change via RTG. Approval process can take days, but may be shorter depending on the circumstances.

Quote:
Now it's pretty clear that the RTP can be changed under certain circumstances

But only by RTG themselves...correct?
____


In my opinion people like Bryan, you and other webmasters and affiliates have a level of trust that is different than that the level of trust we players have and if for instance Bryan is told they can't manipulate RNG's on an operators end other than by someone up the ranks, then all he and the rest of you can do is trust what you are told. However for players having a different level of trust that is slowly or even quickly eroded away by game return and length of time per session for money spent, then charts, grafts and explainations of RNG's and Variances that can give any sane person a reason to scream, matters not.
That is why we who are giving OUR money to casinos want to feel that we are not being taken as suckers all the time.
The thing I think about RTG casinos is maybe they are more than any game platform easier to be manipulated and abused and maybe that's why the gaming world is being flooded with new ones nearly daily.
If RTG operators are reading here and listening, then listen to this.
Trust is being eroded in a major way and transparency and an upfront honest way of doing business with us the players is very important to not only us, but you RTG's as well.
So don't keep throwing RNG's and Variances at us like an inpenetrable barrier and expect the playing community to continue to be satisfied and go along our merry way like little airheads. Ain't gonna happen!

 

[4 of a kind]

Just a note to RobWin regarding this thread.

Based on your earlier responses to this thread, and to be honest, I wrote you off as complete shill.

shill - a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

After reading you last couple of posts and your efforts with not just excepting comments as facts, I have regained great respect for you.

Not that you might care at all what I think, but thought you should know and I'm sure many others here felt the same way.

 

[Mavin1]

Just a note to RobWin regarding this thread.

Based on your earlier responses to this thread, and to be honest, I wrote you off as complete shill.

shill - a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

After reading you last couple of posts and your efforts with not just excepting comments as facts, I have regained great respect for you.

Not that you might care at all what I think, but thought you should know and I'm sure many others here felt the same way.

Ditto that for me as well!

 

[silentvet]

RTG and lucky timing

I have played at LOTS of RTG casino's over the last two years. In 2008 I won over $50k.
There are some I prefer over others due to the volume of players. The more players - MARKETING helps - the better the reels turn and the quicker the payouts.
That being said, each RTG has different time frames in which it just doesn't payout very well. I always test the waters at a few slots (oh, I'm a slots player. Never have been too lucky at cards but put me in front of a slot and I have so much fun!) Anyway, I test a few slots and if I don't see some payouts I jump ship for another RTG. Funny, though I want to have fun I also want to win. Maybe it's just me.
I have not had any better experience (luck) at Microgaming or any of several other casinos. In fact, RTG has been my best source of gaming.
Do I believe that sometimes the slots are set to pay off less than others? Sure! The same way the land-based casino's 45 minutes away from my house are lucky at times and unlucky at others.

Just know that it's a risk - just like plunking down cold hard cash to get into a movie only to find it sucks!

Have fun. Play hard! Life is short!

 

[4 of a kind]

each RTG has different time frames in which it just doesn't payout very well.

Do I believe that sometimes the slots are set to pay off less than others? Sure! The same way the land-based casino's 45 minutes away from my house are lucky at times and unlucky at others.

This is not the issue being discussed here silentvet. This thread is about a Casino Rep. that in so many words admitted that he could rig the slots at will.

Congratulations on your 50k win last year. But we also all know that if you keep pounding the machines even that win last year in the long run theoretically should be lost. Please don't get me wrong here, I wish you nothing but wins and hope it never ends.

But, unlike poker where consistent steady play has better results in the long run, slot machines even set at 99.9% RTP will eventually take all the money your willing to give.

Unless any of us here hit a slot machine with a life changing Jackpot, we are all destined to having fun at a cost. Some people piss their money away on booze, others on drugs, Tiger Woods on women, etc. most of us here obviously enjoy pissing it away on gambling.

 

[silentvet]

Casino Reps = politicians

I did read your thread carefully and more than once prior to posting my added response. I was not replying necessarily to your single post but rather to the tenor of the complaint being made throughout the thread.

I do not disagree with you nor your indignation. It was justified. There is nothing to disagree with in my mind. You are simply stating your reaction to the casino rep's audacity and was appalled that it could possibly be the case. You felt it should be a topic that applaed many others.

To me, dealing with a casino rep is like dealing with a politician. Many are very nice people. Inasmuch, I am not surprised that you were told what you were told. I just don't believe the rep was being honest with you about his/her knowledge of what truly goes on and their understanding of it. Many think they understand things in their business but in order to truly understand they have to understand the "internal workings". It's kind of like speaking with a data entry clerk who has absolutle NO understanding of how the program on the screen is programmed to work but consider themselves an expert on the program.

You see, respectfully, you put the rep on a level playing field with the truth and launched into your reaction based on that presumption. That is not a dishonorable trait of yours by any means. That part I understand.

I have what some would consider a negative trait. "TRUST, but verify" information and its source. These days especially, aren't we regularly getting deluged with information from supposed trusted sources only to learn that its basis is not as we thought? Thus, this has been my take on the casino rep. Not my take on you. I don't post here much, but I've seen yours a multitude of times and look forward to seeing what you have to say.

Merry Christmas!

 

[KasinoKing]

So don't keep throwing RNG's and Variances at us...

Quick note to Mavin1:
In your post here, and another long RTG related one somewhere, you repeatedly say "RNGs" when I'm 99% sure you mean "RTPs";

RNG = Random Number Generator - nothing to do with payouts.
RTP = Return To Player - the % return of a slot.

I know what I think you mean, but other readers may not!

KK

 

[vinylweatherman]

Fruit Frenzy

There is one very specific question to be addressed.

Fruit Frenzy suddenly appeared with the "two pears" configuration, which now seems to be spreading. Dogboy revealed that this was down to design error, and that the stops 40 & 1 are both a pear on this particular RTP setting.

Now, whatever you believe about the mechanism for doing this, this was CLEARLY done at these casinos. The slot was changed from it's original RTP setting, to another. This does NOT go well with the statement that operators tend to go for one of the higher settings when they launch a casino, and then leave it there. If the lowest setting is REALLY only intended for these land kiosk versions, then any change would either have to be between the higher two settings, or the "land kiosk only" claim is a lie.

Now, we do not know the actual RTP that relates to the "double pear" configuration, just that it has to be either 95% or 97.5%. In the current climate, I would tend to think that casinos would LOWER RTP settings, or leave them alone. This however, would suggest that operators have run Fruit Frenzy at 97.5% in the past, rather than 95%. It could also be that these casinos have RAISED the RTP settings, and imposed restrictions on bonuses to compensate, hoping that players will feel the games pay better in the long term, and move their RTG play there.

The claim that any change had to go through RTG ALSO says it can take a matter of "days" to be agreed and set up. Now, is this simply RTG "rubber stamping" it, or can they refuse permission for an operator to set too many games on "tight", or mess with them too often (one claim earlier was that RTG allowed only one change in any 6 month period).

RTG wanted the screenshot of their back end removed. This, however, may backfire on them in an argument over transparency. I don't buy the "interlectual rights" excuse, it's a screenshot, not a live demo that we can tinker with to see how it works.
I doubt this would have been of ANY value whatsoever to a competitor in the market, but it DOES suggest that the back-end screenshot revealed information that RTG didn't want PLAYERS to see, such as what options were available to operators from their console.

Since it was removed, we can only speculate why they "panicked" and had it removed, rather than simply "letting it go" with a stern reprimand to Casino Jack to not do it again.

Had it remained, it would probably KILLED any conspiracy theories, as it would probably have shown NOTHING out of the ordinary, and may even have confirmed that operators could NOT alter any RTP settings from their console.

As for Casino Jack, despite the revelations, he was always eager to tell everybody that "his" casinos were mostly using 97%, which does NOT fit with the "supplied at 95%" default, nor the realities of the current climate when it comes to making a profit from a new casino.

Most marketing for new players is bonus driven, and it would make more sense to launch on the default of 95%, and only increase some games to 97% once the casino was established, only doing so to draw players to try these games, and have a good time on them.

The "rigged" argument stems from the fact that by whatever mechanism, a player could be playing 97% games one week, and 91% games the next, and is not supposed to have ANY idea that things have changed.

It may seem a small change, but it makes a HUGE difference in the length of playing time, AND in the ability to reach WR on the bonus driven model that is RTG.
In some respects, it allows deceptive marketing. An RTG casino could relax it's bonus terms, perhaps by dropping the WR, and use this to drive increased market share - yet they could also secretly drop the RTP to compensate, so that this headline good deal was actually no different to what went before, and could even be worse.
Players who didn't take bonuses would be hit hardest of all, since they would get less playing time for their money, and less chance of getting far enough ahead to make them consider cashing out.

 

[Mavin1]

Quick note to Mavin1:
In your post here, and another long RTG related one somewhere, you repeatedly say "RNGs" when I'm 99% sure you mean "RTPs";

RNG = Random Number Generator - nothing to do with payouts.
RTP = Return To Player - the % return of a slot.

I know what I think you mean, but other readers may not!

KK

Thanks, now see, we are never to old to learn something new. I only knew RNG and now the Variance thing, never knew of RTP before. I guess then "RTP" is what I have issue with then.
I will try to keep that in mind when posting.

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi All,

I'll do my best to answer your questions - I'm going to have to be brief because I have a hell of a lot going on right now. Thanks for your understanding

First of all, thanks for your response Bryan. Now, where you say above that access such as this "has the capability to be abused"..

Abused as in promising one thing and delivering another, or using the system to milk players. I think we've had enough examples of how some managers have abused players to know what I mean.

I guess on a matter such as this then, 'where RTG are unequivocally stating that the RTP percentages cannot be changed by the casino operator themselves on their end' then I would have to agree to disagree with you. Since I do think that issue is a huge one and I personally would think that RTG would want that to be clear to all players with absolute clarity and not being subject to conditions or exceptions! Thus my reasoning on why a name and title from RTG should be attached to a statement such as that one...

The you've misread what I wrote - I said that operators cannot change the RTP on their end on their own. This has to be finalized by RTG.

I understand the position you are in, but I cannot respect the fact that they are not willing to be more transparent by wanting to substantiate a statement such as that one with a name, title or even at the very least the position of the company rep there that made that statement. That is absolutely no more than we ask of each other here when one of the forum members makes a statement or claim to something...as you well know, everybody and their brother here jumps on that band wagon and then tells them to back up their statement or claim with proof..

I think you are a not reading what I wrote - or I am failing to write effectively. There is nothing wrong with posting information - but I feel I shouldn't have to substantiate every minute detail with references - especially when a lot of this stuff has been repeated.

If persons working for a company want to remain anonymous, I will respect that. You can speculate on this until the cows come home - how much does that really matter anyway? You want me to clear things up? I'll clear them up and post what I can. Note: I've never been a name dropper - you can go back years worth of reporting of mine, and only so often I'll mention a name. So this is more or less a force of habit.

...I would hope you too would want more creditable transparency in this industry as well Bryan, unless I am misunderstanding you here.

Again, this has nothing to do with you and your credibility and honesty Bryan but rather RTG's statement of what can and cannot be done on the operators end.

I told you how it is. If you don't want to believe what I posted, that is your choice.

The statements I received from the operators indicate to me that they do not make changes to the RTP on the fly - period; they don't even bother with it (making changes). The statements I have from RTG indicate that changes CAN be made but under certain circumstances and with approval. Perhaps I should have been a bit more clearer on that.

Please note that we are skirting the boundary of intellectual property rights and a lot of this stuff is on a need-to-know basis.

Do you know who okays the RTP increase or decrease of your favorite slot at the Bellagio or (fill in the blank) casino? Do you think these managers would want their names posted all over the Internet getting listed in Google etcetera? It has nothing to do with transparency, it has to do with privacy. I respect privacy without being asked to do so.

Now it's pretty clear that the RTP can be changed under certain circumstances

But only by RTG themselves...correct?

Correct!

 

[tombee]

I finally got some stats from an accredited RTG, the one I played at the most, and of course they were as bad as I thought. But hey.. Unlucky is probably my middle name then, isn't it?

Spins-Wagered-Return-RTP

April
18877
2127,55
1967,55
0,924796

May-August
14454
1695,11
1374,6
0,810920

Sept-Dec
6761
1059,6
799,6
0,754624

Total
40092
4882,26
4141,75
0,848326

 

[KasinoKing]

I finally got some stats from an accredited RTG, the one I played at the most, and of course they were as bad as I thought. But hey.. Unlucky is probably my middle name then, isn't it?

Which slots were you playing, and how many lines selected?

I ask because your average bets per spin seem incredibly low:

April = 0.113 credits/spin
May-August 0.117 credits/spin
Sept-Dec 0.157 credits/spin

Total 0.122 credits/spin

So if you were playing Real Series slots you can't of played more than about half the lines and at minimum bets most of the time...

KK

 

[Nifty29]

Yes..interesting thought KK. If you do play less than max lines you are asking for trouble.

Another thing to remember about RTG %...they include random jackpots...in other words, it is tough to get the advertised RTP in the long run without hitting a RJ.

Interestingly enough, I am way ahead at RTG this year without any RJ...so it is possible.

 

[KasinoKing]

Yes..interesting thought KK. If you do play less than max lines you are asking for trouble.

That wasn't my point.
It doesn't matter how many or how few lines you play, the long term RTP% would still be the same.

I just thought it very strange that Tombee was using less than max lines IF s/he played real series slots.
If s/he WERE playing these slots at max lines, then the figures the casino have provided are incorrect.

KK

 

[Nifty29]

I was actually referring to the increased variance...I probably should have been a bit clearer. I dont understand people who play less than max lines, but each to their own I guess.

 

[lost2much]

Hi guys, I guess it really doesn't matter what the RTG guys say or what Casino Jack says. Bottom line is that after preponderance(sp?) of all available "evidence", RTG lives under the dark cloud of the playing customers perception(right or wrong). I just know that my results at even recommended sites like Inet are horrific. Does'nt mean that they are cheating, I guess I could be the most unlucky person in the world, but I doubt it. As with so many things in life, perception is reality. I personally won't be giving much of my deposits to them in the coming year. Buyer beware. So, if RTG is on the level, I would suggest they go to the higher payout percentages and protect their customer base. As it is, they will only hurt themselves until player perception is positively enhanced. Hope this makes sense, my first post.

 

[chuchu59]

Dont know about others but I have several fav. RTG slots including Diamond Dozen. However, in the past few weeks something has definitely changed. Forget about the RTP. If anyone has played this slot they will know that there are 2 features ie the blue diamond feature where you get free spins if you get 3 or more blue diamond scatters from left to right whereas for any 3 or more white diamonds spread across the screen you get another bonus feature.

If I am not mistaken the first reel should consist of 1 blue and 1 white diamond so there should be an equal chance of them coming up. Not so, as the occurence of a blue diamond in the first reel far outweighs the chances of a white diamond appearing which is very strange. I have noticed this in the past 10K plus spins on this slot recently. Furthermore, if the first reel has a blue diamond appearing there is a good chance of it appearing in the second reel as there are 2 blue diamonds in the 2nd reel strip. However, you will notice that this is not so and since 2 diamonds as scatters pay 2x bet you lose quite a bit in the long run especially when you are guaranteed at least 0.6x bet if you get a white diamond in the first reel.

Hope Dogboy has some input on this. I am not saying they are cheats. Just an observation. Others are welcome to share on whether they have this observation as well.

 

[silcnlayc]

Hi guys, I guess it really doesn't matter what the RTG guys say or what Casino Jack says. Bottom line is that after preponderance(sp?) of all available "evidence", RTG lives under the dark cloud of the playing customers perception(right or wrong). I just know that my results at even recommended sites like Inet are horrific. Does'nt mean that they are cheating, I guess I could be the most unlucky person in the world, but I doubt it. As with so many things in life, perception is reality. I personally won't be giving much of my deposits to them in the coming year. Buyer beware. So, if RTG is on the level, I would suggest they go to the higher payout percentages and protect their customer base. As it is, they will only hurt themselves until player perception is positively enhanced. Hope this makes sense, my first post.

It makes very good sense! I agree...one cannot be UNLUCKY or run a BAD STREAK for the length of time they claim one can without something wrong somewhere...

Classic example...last night I played Clubworld knowing their jackpot was ready to pop...I played and the last spin I could make when I went broke..you guessed it..the random went off...as I said..there really is something rotten in the RTG world for this is like the hundredth time this has happened to me..the jackpot going off the INSTANT I had no funds left...ahhh well..It is not a conspiracy..it is just a fact this happened more than once...I still believe that the casinos have cherry picked the winners on these jackpots...and I know it can be easily done with a line of code...

You can believe what you would like, but my belief does not make me wrong either...so, I say, to each their own..player BEWARE!

I have uninstalled all RTG's on my laptop as of today..and will not play there again until it is corrected to where it should be..I have truly come to believe something is really ROTTEN at their casinos...

.

 

[Mavin1]

So true! That is why I have quit and cleared my pc of all casinos, they aren't playing as they used to. I mean really, how long can they ride the excuse of "Oh you're just having a run of bad luck"?

So if they want to play hard ball with me I can play hard ball right back and not give them anymore money for a cheaper product, where before it was a quality product.

If everyone thought about it, it wouldn't take much to turn things around to fair play again. Just withhold all deposits for a few weeks, get them where it hurts and see if things changed then. Ah but alas, people don't ban together on anything anymore.

But if and when you all ever do, I'm in!

 

[silcnlayc]

But if and when you all ever do, I'm in!

That is cute ... I am in too!! So now it is 2 against the world of casino heavy's !

.

 

[RobWin]

I was actually referring to the increased variance...I probably should have been a bit clearer. I dont understand people who play less than max lines, but each to their own I guess.

I agree, what about this idiot here who was only playing 3 lines!!

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/cuba-club-15-000x-line-bet-win.35343/
____
____

 

[Mavin1]

That is cute ... I am in too!! So now it is 2 against the world of casino heavy's !

.

Well hey, it only took David to kill Goliath!

 

[eu_lowroller]

Tooked a 150% bonus on All Star Slots

I started with a balance of 82,50 and had no playtime with only 20 cent bets on slots and that's not normal, because normally i play at least some hours with it, but today it were only 20 minutes and very rarly bonus rounds and the free spins comes only after losing about 70 dollars, and then i losed my banmkroll very fast, so i could only wager my total balance 3 times and that's certainyl very mysterious.

Asked live chat and they told me i had a 70,5% payout% *lol*

Very ridiculous, if you ask me!

 

[DogBoy001]

Dont know about others but I have several fav. RTG slots including Diamond Dozen. However, in the past few weeks something has definitely changed. Forget about the RTP. If anyone has played this slot they will know that there are 2 features ie the blue diamond feature where you get free spins if you get 3 or more blue diamond scatters from left to right whereas for any 3 or more white diamonds spread across the screen you get another bonus feature.

If I am not mistaken the first reel should consist of 1 blue and 1 white diamond so there should be an equal chance of them coming up. Not so, as the occurence of a blue diamond in the first reel far outweighs the chances of a white diamond appearing which is very strange. I have noticed this in the past 10K plus spins on this slot recently. Furthermore, if the first reel has a blue diamond appearing there is a good chance of it appearing in the second reel as there are 2 blue diamonds in the 2nd reel strip. However, you will notice that this is not so and since 2 diamonds as scatters pay 2x bet you lose quite a bit in the long run especially when you are guaranteed at least 0.6x bet if you get a white diamond in the first reel.

Hope Dogboy has some input on this. I am not saying they are cheats. Just an observation. Others are welcome to share on whether they have this observation as well.

Heya,

Reel 1 has 2 Blue Diamond on reel 1 and 1 White (and always has btw).

Easy way to verify it, as on the reel strips the Blue Diamond on reel 1 will either occur:

Man
K
Blue Diamond
J
A
or
Ring
J
Blue Diamond
Q
A

And yep, there are also 2 Blue and 1 White on reel 2.

Hope it helps

Woooof