RTG return to player percentages

[lost2much]

Hi all, This is one of those for what it's worth things. All day I have been having an ongoing email conversation with Emily at Inetbet. Let me preface my comments by saying that Inet has great CS and are very responsive. I initially contacted her about my concerns with all the talk of RTG software being "fuzzy". Her first response was the standard "too bad, bad luck" line. I contacted her again to let her know that many of us concerned about RTG and changing RTP, etc. Her response was that we with these concerns are a very miniscule number of players at the RTG casinos. She basically told me that we are bunch of whining losers (not her words, mine, but that was the gist of it). I explained that I probably won't be depositing much until I see some positive feedback on RTG in general. She pointed out that we are 0.0001 percent of their players. I came away with the impression that we aren't that important to RTG and if we don't like it don't play (again my impression, not her words). Well Emily, you are exactly right! I don't like it and I probably won't play there now! Nothing like taking on bad PR with even more incindiary feedback from support. Understand, I like RTG games, I like Inet, but with this kind of attitude, I can't see me contributing to their coffers. She also said that people who lose are the only ones that post here and you never hear about the good things. I take exception to that as I have seen many positive posts here. Well Emily, as one of the "little people", have a great new year and let us know if you ever want to delve into these possible irregularities in your software platform.

 

[takethemoney]

When is someone who actually knows what in the hell they are talking about going to visit this thread and enlighten us all?

Some of you may remember my streak of winning several RJs at Cherry Red and Casino Titan. Fortunately, I managed to escape with most of the winnings intact. Unfortunately I learned a valuable lesson in the process and I still can't quite get my head around what exactly occurred. Here is what happened: Cleopatra's Gold was up there pretty high, closing in on an RJ of $10,000. I played a couple thousand bucks thru it and probably played it on and off for about a week, finally busting out. I had several pending $4k withdrawals that were reversible. I reversed one and played. It just seemed so unusual, the infrequency of the bonus rounds. I mean I have played this game and I mean a lot of this game at other casinos. Rarely do I not do well on it if I stick with it for awhile. This SOB though, just kept taking and taking and taking. This went on over an entire week, going like 500 spins without a feature, getting disconnected, blanks after blanks, etc.

Frustrated and believing that the RJ must be just around the corner, I reversed another and final $4k. Same program as before, almost 2 weeks worth of play and not getting many bonus rounds. Even when they would come, they paid so little. Now I really wonder if my previous wins caused the casino to shut me down in some way. I understand variance, but that was unprecedented in all my years of play. I've been back a couple times and just cannot hook up no matter what game I play and my sessions are much shorter....just seems the money goes so fast there. Anyway, I understand variance and volatility, but it's been just ridiculous. Maybe I need to just stay away from that casino. I'm up still over $30,000.

My final thoughts on this place: If one player can lose $12000 playing on a machine that has a $10k random, then I wonder how much money that machine has actually taken in. BTW, it still hasn't hit. It's now about $14k

 

[joyceflorida]

interesting post. I just made two large reversals in my account (each over 2K) and same thing happened with me. I've seen this before at other RTG casinos and know not to do this because somehow I believe the "account' was switched over to total loser. There were non-stop losing spins, no bonus rounds, etc.

i am very hesitant to deposit at a casino that does this because I believe they will try to get their money back (if you have a positive withdrawl history) in every future deposit you make with them. I saw this at intertops and therefore eventually closed the account. That's why you need to move around to different casinos because they pull this nonsense.

 

[Nifty29]

Classic example...last night I played Clubworld knowing their jackpot was ready to pop...I played and the last spin I could make when I went broke..you guessed it..the random went off...as I said..there really is something rotten in the RTG world for this is like the hundredth time this has happened to me..the jackpot going off the INSTANT I had no funds left...ahhh well..It is not a conspiracy..it is just a fact this happened more than once...I still believe that the casinos have cherry picked the winners on these jackpots...and I know it can be easily done with a line of code...

I respect your opinion Silc, but I believe this is way off the mark. I dont see the benefit of a casino doing this anyway, but even if they did they would be giving them to the high rollers to keep them playing.....but then I have seen many screenies of players winning on .20 and .40 bets so.....and do you really think the casino employs someone to sit there watching every slot spin on every game, picking out who they want to hit the RJ each time? I know it sucks when someone hits a RJ just after you bust out, or even while youre still playing, but there could be hundreds of players spinning that slot along with you with some playing higher bets (giving them better chances) so your chances of being the one that hits it at that time is small at best - this could happen to you 100 times and still be within the mathematical norms I would surmise. Dont blame the casino when you dont hit the jackpot, just accept that you didnt hit spin at the right nanosecond to be the winner - the right place at the right time is the only requirement and one day you will be the one (I hope )

@Dogboy

It has been established by Bryan that, under certain circumstances, the RTP of games can be altered. Is it a trade secret to tell us how that is implemented? e.g. removing symbols etc and if these changes are applied per game or in every game. I know that the paytables themselves dont change so Im assuming its something else.

The problem I have with changing RTP on slots is that nobody is informed. At least with VP, you can see if the payouts are reduced on the paytable (often done with the bonus pokers etc)...but with slots we are completely in the dark. Is there a way for players to know the RTP by using any type of visual cue?

Thanks again for input dogboy

 

[chuchu59]

I agree, what about this idiot here who was only playing 3 lines!!

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/cuba-club-15-000x-line-bet-win.35343/
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OK, that was some wizardry from the idiot. Which brings the next question. Should you start to playing max lines again to counter the neg variance for this slot should you decide to play again. I know all spins are supposed to be random but whether you like it or not once you get a phenomenal win chances are you get going downhill on the same slot especially those with RJs.

This is getting to be a healthy debate. Normally, an RTP of 97-98% will be the max. allowable to players but if this can be adjusted, it could probs go as low as 92%. If the contribution for RJs is included could this go further down to say 90% which is a very poor return and could probably explain why, for those who take a bonus, to see themselves busted out after reaching 4-5 times playthrough. Incidentally, I would like to ask Dogboy the rate of contibution for a bet to a JP. It should be fixed, I assume eg 0.5% - 1%. When playing at $0.2 per spin I notice that JP counter only moved once in about every 5 spins and if I were the only one playing that would mean a 1% contribution although I could be wrong.

I also feel that some are not given a choice with the Real-Series slots. Why do we have to contribute to the JP? Isnt it possible to have non RJ versions of these slots which would also mean a higher RTP for players who dont feel they would be lucky to hit these and in return would be getting more playtime. True, the RJ will be building up slower but the players would be more loyal. You get really pissed off seeing your deposits go down the drain every 10-15 minutes of you depositing.

 

[Wildfire7]

Sometimes not playing maximum lines, can be part of an overall strategy to stretch a smaller bankroll in the hope of hitting bonus rounds and free spins. But it is a very risky way to play.

There are some slots where you almost know that you are not going to hit the features for at least 100 spins, especially higher variance games such as Isis and Break da bank. So playing minimum lines for the first 100 or so lines can help low rollers. Providing they intend to switch back to maximum lines in time to catch the features.

With all the speculation that goes on regarding casinos fixing this and fixing that, you seldom here players saying that all the larger wins are on the high numbered lines, so as to kill off players who attempt only playing a few lines.

Playing only a few lines all the time is a bit like playing blackjack with all the picture cards removed from the deck. You might still get 21, but you are really playing with one arm tied behind your back!

Mike

 

[eu_lowroller]

If the contribution for RJs is included could this go further down to say 90% which is a very poor return

It would be nice, if i would have at least a 90% payout, but like i mentioned before, i had only a 70,5% payout from my $82.50 starting balance on only 20 cent bets and this really sucks!

 

[4 of a kind]

When is someone who actually knows what in the hell they are talking about going to visit this thread and enlighten us all?

For what it's worth, I thought this was a good idea to create a private thread where only top brass here could relay our concerns to certified technicians in the online casino world. They would then have no fear of being abused.

Wouldn't it nice to have a technician from all the online brands proudly standing up for their company, and explain away our serious concerns?

I would assume something like this could never happen, as we all know from experiences, they are not straight up in more ways then one.

If I was a proud owner of a software provider making millions, I would have all kinds of technicians clarifying everything in an attempt to push my product.

Something like this already not existing is proof enough for me there is a great deal to hide. After all I guess it would be hard for an RTG software provider to come on here explaining something to us, but on the other hand have no problems supplying rogue's the software they need to steal our money.



Link Outdated / Removed

 

[tombee]

Which slots were you playing, and how many lines selected?

I ask because your average bets per spin seem incredibly low:

April = 0.113 credits/spin
May-August 0.117 credits/spin
Sept-Dec 0.157 credits/spin

Total 0.122 credits/spin

So if you were playing Real Series slots you can't of played more than about half the lines and at minimum bets most of the time...

KK

Sorry, totally missed your post. You are right, most of the times I don't play max lines because of my small bankroll. However my thought is also that if I play half of the lines instead of all, I get more playtime and more playtime means more chance to hit the upward flow. The first session I believe had the smallest bets and also the best return, while the last session for example I upped bets to more lines then I normally do and the stats are also dropping because of smaller playtime and not getting that "upward" (it is never really upward) flow in the end.
The playthough is on several games, all real series slots. I know that if many were high variance it is not impossible to reach a smaller payout over just 40.000 spins, but I think this payout was very small.
Also I know that randoms are invloved and off course I never win with my small bets. However those should only account for, I believe, 1.5pct of the payout. So if a slot is set to 95%, I should get about 93.5pct in the long term. Although it is very possible to get less over 40.000 spins, I believe 85pct is a bit low for me to keep playing since I do not have that mucht money

 

[takethemoney]

I thought I could play fewer lines in fruit frenzy, infact I played 5c per line with only one line bet. I hit a bonus round and when in bonus round it gave me back all 25 lines. I thought I was onto something, but as it turns out the machine is tuned to know this and if you do this you will go way longer between bonus rounds making this peceived little secret advantage null. RTG is smarter than the government.

 

[nisosbar]

interesting post. I just made two large reversals in my account (each over 2K) and same thing happened with me. I've seen this before at other RTG casinos and know not to do this because somehow I believe the "account' was switched over to total loser. There were non-stop losing spins, no bonus rounds, etc.

i am very hesitant to deposit at a casino that does this because I believe they will try to get their money back (if you have a positive withdrawl history) in every future deposit you make with them. I saw this at intertops and therefore eventually closed the account. That's why you need to move around to different casinos because they pull this nonsense.

Yes, that's what I was just going to post. My general rule of thumb is, you need to set yourself a win limit, and when/if you reach it, cash out IMMEDIATELY, and move on ASAP to another casino. Do NOT continue playing at the casino where you won big.

This could just be superstitious nonsense, but I have also found that when you win big you end up losing big in subsequent play.

 

[nisosbar]

I also feel that some are not given a choice with the Real-Series slots. Why do we have to contribute to the JP? Isnt it possible to have non RJ versions of these slots which would also mean a higher RTP for players who dont feel they would be lucky to hit these and in return would be getting more playtime. True, the RJ will be building up slower but the players would be more loyal. You get really pissed off seeing your deposits go down the drain every 10-15 minutes of you depositing.

Ditto this.

 

[KasinoKing]

I thought I could play fewer lines in fruit frenzy, infact I played 5c per line with only one line bet. I hit a bonus round and when in bonus round it gave me back all 25 lines. I thought I was onto something, but as it turns out the machine is tuned to know this and if you do this you will go way longer between bonus rounds making this peceived little secret advantage null. RTG is smarter than the government.

This has been discussed before; the reason is, to get the bonus round you need 5 of-a-kind on a win-line, and not scatters as with most other slots.
Therefore if you play 25 lines you are 25 x more likely to get the bonus than if you play just 1 line.
This slot is totally fair in this respect, and there is NO advantage in playing less lines to try to hit the bonus.

KK

 

[DogBoy001]

Is it a trade secret to tell us how that is implemented? e.g. removing symbols etc and if these changes are applied per game or in every game. I know that the paytables themselves dont change so Im assuming its something else.

Heya,

It's not a trade secret per se, as typically all manufacturers that have several RTP settings function in the same manner (and in the B&M industry all manufacturers have multiple RTP settings available for different jurisdictions)

In most slots it takes only a very minor change to effect an RTP shift of several %.
Most often this is accomplished by 1, sometimes 2, changes to symbols on the reel strip, for example changing a higher paying symbol for a royal.

It is extremely unlikely that a change will involve a shift in the number of scatters or substitutes, so typically all feature hit rates are constant across RTP variants.
The reason for this is that adjusting scatters and substitutes will most often produce a change far in excess of the % required.

Length of reel strips is most often not adjusted.

Occasionally probability schedules used in pick features may be altered in favour of reel strip changes, or in conjunction to balance the RTP, and again the change can be minimal to accomplish a small RTP shift.
However, as most games have no form of pick feature, reel strip changes account for 90% of RTP variants.

Incidentally, I would like to ask Dogboy the rate of contibution for a bet to a JP. It should be fixed, I assume eg 0.5% - 1%. When playing at $0.2 per spin I notice that JP counter only moved once in about every 5 spins and if I were the only one playing that would mean a 1% contribution although I could be wrong.

The increment does not vary by bet, though the increment differs for games that have a single jackpot or minor/major (the newer slots). Total RTP including seed, as stated in the rules, does not exceed 1.5%.

The jackpot meter does not update instantly in real time, it does so over a short span. Exiting and returning to the game will show the meter's current level, which may differ by a few cents to that displayed while playing the game (or even by a few dollars according to bet size or numbers of players at the time)

I also feel that some are not given a choice with the Real-Series slots. Why do we have to contribute to the JP? Isnt it possible to have non RJ versions of these slots which would also mean a higher RTP for players who dont feel they would be lucky to hit these and in return would be getting more playtime. True, the RJ will be building up slower but the players would be more loyal. You get really pissed off seeing your deposits go down the drain every 10-15 minutes of you depositing.

I will raise the possibility of producing and implementing non-jackpot variants of existing games with RTG, or producing some future games that do not use a random jackpot.
No promises though, and even if we kicked off something of this type it would be a year before it was seen...there's a lot in the pipeline .

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

DogBoy001,

Someone mentioned in a previous post that you actually work for Real Time Gaming as a software programmer. I'm relatively new here and read many of your past posts, and yet was surprised when recently reading you worked for RTG. Hope you don't mind if I could ask you a few questions.

1) How long have you worked for them and exactly what is your job description?

2) Do you actually work from home or have to go to an office?

3) When you got hired by them did you have to sign any type of a confidentially document, or something of that order where you would risk your employment if you were to discuss openly anything more then common obvious knowledge?

4) If you didn't have to sign any types of sworn to secretive agreements mentioned above, do employees at different levels of employment at RTG have to sign any such paper work.

5) Once in a post a casino rep. here (CasinoJack) once mentioned you would have to sign such a document to work for an online casino. Is this required only for casino employees or also for software providers?

6) If in fact this agreement does exist do employees risk legal action against them if they talk?

7) Are you even allowed to discuss any such agreement?

8) If not at your level, can someone at a different level ever have the power to create and install some type of cheating program for personal gain similar to the Absolute Poker scandal that was exposed?

9) RTG supplies software for many honest casinos, yet on the other hand they also provide software for many of the known rogue casinos. Would you know their position on supplying the rogues, and why in fact they even do?

I certainly could go on with many more questions here, and hope these limited questions I ask are not construed as invation of privacy.

I would not ever ask you for anything or expect an answer if that would jeopardize your employment. If you don't respond I completely understand.

 

[skiny]

I thought I could play fewer lines in fruit frenzy, infact I played 5c per line with only one line bet. I hit a bonus round and when in bonus round it gave me back all 25 lines. I thought I was onto something, but as it turns out the machine is tuned to know this and if you do this you will go way longer between bonus rounds making this peceived little secret advantage null. RTG is smarter than the government.

To hit a bonus round in Fruit Frenzy you need to match 5 symbols on one line. And it has to be a on a line you're playing. It's the only game I know of that puts your playlines back to the maximum when you hit a bonus feature. It's also the only game I know of that the amount of lines you play directly effects the odds of hitting a bonus feature.

I'm really only playing these video slot games for two things. 1 to hit a random jackpot which may never come no matter what I bet and 2 to hit a bonus feature since this seems to be the only place a low roller can actually make any money.

When I play Fruit Frenzy for 9 or 12 lines I'm really only gambling on the fact that when a bonus feature does hit it will be somewhere between lines 1 and 9 or 1 and 12 and if it does, it cost me half as much to finally hit it. And when it does hit I play the bonus feature at max lines anyway.

I should also add that I rarely play less than max lines on any game. Sometimes I do it just for kicks. Decrease the odds of hitting anything, increase the percentage of your wager for each hit. Sometimes you win more playing less lines than you do playing all of them. It really just depends which lines hit more often.

 

[DogBoy001]

DogBoy001,

Someone mentioned in a previous post that you actually work for Real Time Gaming as a software programmer. I'm relatively new here and read many of your past posts, and yet was surprised when recently reading you worked for RTG. Hope you don't mind if I could ask you a few questions.

I've never said I work for them, just that we work with them.

We are an independent company, currently employing 45 people, and service several B&M manufacturers (including some of the majors), as well as RTG, by providing game content.
RTG are aware that I respond to technical questions on these forums.

Woooof

 

[4 of a kind]

I've never said I work for them, just that we work with them.

We are an independent company, currently employing 45 people, and service several B&M manufacturers (including some of the majors), as well as RTG, by providing game content.
RTG are aware that I respond to technical questions on these forums.

Woooof

Oh well was really looking forward to my list of questions getting answers. Another dead end trying to find anything out about this stuff.

 

[PenDragyn21]

4OAK,

Not a dead end really. Google NDA (non disclosure agreement). These are not specific to casino companies and extremely common in any company that makes software.

 

[Nifty29]

Oh well was really looking forward to my list of questions getting answers. Another dead end trying to find anything out about this stuff.

Well dogboy has provided far more information than anybody from RTG or any other provider, so saying its a dead end is a bit harsh. Some of the questions you asked wont ever be answered by anyone that has signed an NDA. Instead of treating what dogboy says as a 'dead end', treat it as a new source of information that most players would never get. Ive learned a lot from dogboys' posts.

In fact, next time I visit Sydney Im gonna go check his stuff out...arent I dogboy?? lol

 

[DogBoy001]

Well dogboy has provided far more information than anybody from RTG or any other provider, so saying its a dead end is a bit harsh. Some of the questions you asked wont ever be answered by anyone that has signed an NDA. Instead of treating what dogboy says as a 'dead end', treat it as a new source of information that most players would never get. Ive learned a lot from dogboys' posts.

In fact, next time I visit Sydney Im gonna go check his stuff out...arent I dogboy?? lol

As long as we blindfold you throughout, no worries

Woooof

 

[RobWin]

Instead of treating what dogboy says as a 'dead end', treat it as a new source of information that most players would never get.

Good point Nifty, either your glass is "Half Full" or "Half Empty"

Depending on each individuals outlook.
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[chuchu59]

Good point Nifty, either your glass is "Half Full" or "Half Empty"

Depending on each individuals outlook.
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I will take the 'half empty' side given that the liquid contained is posionous