Casino Club closed account of 167'500 JACKPOT winner

[The Dude]

What's interesting is that they are rogued now when it affects affiliates themselves. Yet they were not rogued when Casino Club began not paying winning players. So much for the affiliates looking after their players...

Oh give me a freaking break. Where has this casino not been paying "winners"?

We're talking about fraud here in this thread. Or did you mean fraudulent winners

Max and I invest a hell of a lot of time researching and looking into each and every complaint and to try to be a fair as possible to both parties. If all you have to contribute here is a troll-like post that demeans everything that we do, then you are in the wrong forum.

Your comment is not appreciated whatsoever.

 

[Webzcas]

What's interesting is that they are rogued now when it affects affiliates themselves. Yet they were not rogued when Casino Club began not paying winning players. So much for the affiliates looking after their players...

I also heard that the player in question has been unable to participate in this thread because he has been banned from here. I think it puts things into a bit different perspective.

One of those sites is my own. I have not blacklisted Casino Coins for a player issue. As far as I know there are no past issues. I have blacklisted their program behind Casino Coins for a completely unrelated matter which affects affiliates.

Whether Online Casino Reviewer or Guard Dog have blacklisted Affiliate Club or not has no bearing on this issue being discussed in this thread

 

[The Dude]

BTW - the player was banned for submitting a bogus PAB. He was less than truthful.

I have zero tolerance for a-hole players abusing the PAB service or exploiting this message board with bogus complaints. This Casino Club issue is a prime example of this. It has nothing to do with CC being in the accredited section, it has to do with the integrity of this board.

You fuck up and lie to me or Max while submitting a PAB - you can kiss your account goodbye. End of story. You come here and post a false complaint, you're out of here as well.

"Realplayer" is in touch with us via email. That's good enough for me. If he can prove that he didn't bullshit us and he is 100% legit, I'll let him back in. For all I am concerned, he forfeited his account when he fed us BS.

 

[RobWin]

One of those sites is my own. I have not blacklisted Casino Coins for a player issue. As far as I know there are no past issues. I have blacklisted their program behind Casino Coins for a completely unrelated matter which affects affiliates.

Whether Online Casino Reviewer or Guard Dog have blacklisted Affiliate Club or not has no bearing on this issue being discussed in this thread

I should have made that post in an entirely separate thread of it's own and anticipated responses as that one. Sorry about that guys. It would be fine with me if you guys wanted to move it out of this thread.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

If this had happened at William Hill or Paddy Power I would not be too fussed about it as you could at least rely on the integrity of the company. The bottom line is there would be people you could go to in order to get it sorted out.

But here we are dealing with a very small company. The jackpot could represent a substantial portion of their yearly profits. AFAIK they only have a single online casino.

Hopefully I am wrong and CC are much bigger than I realise. But the cynic in me can't help thinking that maybe they don't have the cash to pay the player? I am sure this is not right and they do have a legitimate case against the player. But the lack of information from the regulator or the casino itself is more important than what is going on with the player for me.

Isn't it time we changed the agenda from the player to asking what the casino will do with the money once they prove their case? And is the body that grants them a license at least a little bit interested? Even Costa Rica would shift their ass for 167K. This is a disgrace to the EU as far as I am concerned. If the jackpot were to vanish and the story leaks out then we could be looking at EU states restricting internet gaming for years to come.

 

[kmay87]

If this had happened at William Hill or Paddy Power I would not be too fussed about it as you could at least rely on the integrity of the company. The bottom line is there would be people you could go to in order to get it sorted out.

But here we are dealing with a very small company. The jackpot could represent a substantial portion of their yearly profits. AFAIK they only have a single online casino.

Hopefully I am wrong and CC are much bigger than I realise. But the cynic in me can't help thinking that maybe they don't have the cash to pay the player? I am sure this is not right and they do have a legitimate case against the player. But the lack of information from the regulator or the casino itself is more important than what is going on with the player for me.

Isn't it time we changed the agenda from the player to asking what the casino will do with the money once they prove their case? And is the body that grants them a license at least a little bit interested? Even Costa Rica would shift their ass for 167K. This is a disgrace to the EU as far as I am concerned. If the jackpot were to vanish and the story leaks out then we could be looking at EU states restricting internet gaming for years to come.

The jackpot is a progressive, so it was built up by the players. Not a penny of it comes from Casino Club.

And Gaming VC is quite a big company. The market capital is around 50m according to their listing on the stock exchange.

 

[agaziel88]

I have zero tolerance for a-hole players abusing the PAB service or exploiting this message board with bogus complaints.

I reading this thread from the begining and i must say that if would have zero tolerance for bouth players AND CASINOS we wouldnt have chance to speak with CC reps here. How they deal with Heffernan is just one example. He was insta banned here ONLY because casino told you he was fraudster. Good for him that they post play logs ... that save his ass.

Casinomeister - You have no idea how many eyes is watching this case. I wish You good but remember that. Its hard to gain respect among players as you did but its very easy to lose it.

 

[tofu23]

Where has this casino not been paying "winners"?

We're talking about fraud here in this thread. Or did you mean fraudulent winners

Max and I invest a hell of a lot of time researching and looking into each and every complaint and to try to be a fair as possible to both parties. If all you have to contribute here is a troll-like post that demeans everything that we do, then you are in the wrong forum.

Your comment is not appreciated whatsoever.

Settle down - take some criticism on the chin just for once in your life. Talk about a glass china jaw. You could give Fabiano a run for his money at times but at least you don't censor posts.

The Casino didn't pay "heffernan" $8k on the premise of a bogus bot playing claim. It was bogus as there was not a shred of evidence to support the bot playing claim. Casino Club eventually succumbed to the preponderance of evidence disclosed by play logs that no bot was involved.

Hence Casino Club have a major credibility issue on their hands (hefferenan was not the only player falsely accused of "bot playing" and funds stolen).

Recently Casino Club have been blacklisted for renegade tampering of affiliate contracts and entitlements. More grist for the Casino Club integrity mill.

But back to the latest $167k player issue. You comment above "We're talking about fraud here in this thread."

What fraud? Surely not Casino Club's claim that the player used some device to second guess future results with the aid of a mechanical device? It can't be a player identity issue. I'll repeat that for your benefit - It can't be a player identity issue.

The Casino Club lawyer letter was receipted by the subject player at the given home address. The subject player has corresponded with the Casino Club lawyers by email. Casino Club must be satisfied of the subject player's bona fides to contemplate recovery action via a civil court. if they were to obtain a judgement against "Mickey Mouse" what good would that do? It follows Casino Club know the subject player's bona fides are legitimate.

So where is the fraud? Don't tell me you're on the magic mechanical device band-waggon that thwarts the casinos RNG? Where is the fraud? Spell it out because no here knows but your good self apparently.

BTW - leave all that adolescent name calling garbage (forum troll etc etc) to some one who cares.

 

[maxd]

That's a load of rubbish and I think you know it. We've worked on this case for some time now and the issues related to the player are very suspect indeed. I'm not saying that it's conclusive at this point, that work is still ongoing, but it is very very odd.

That said you've attacked Bryan directly so I'll let him deal with you directly.

AFWIW, I'd say "forum troll" applies here in spades!

 

[The Dude]

Bye Tofu. That was the last troll post that I'll tolerate out of you.

You know I take a hell of a lot of criticism - especially from players when I explain things to them that they don't want to hear.

Lest you forget, the casino PAID Hefferman because of the research I conducted, and how I presented it to them. It wasn't because of you or others whining in the fora. You and your cry-baby brethren had nothing to do with it.

Back to this issue: I've asked for CC to make further comments here concerning this issue.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I am not a lawyer, but I did work a decade as a legal secretary.

Most jurisdictions have a statute of limitations for filing actions...in Canada it is two years, and many cases are left to the last minute before papers are filed, hoping to reach a resolution prior to that, as well as assembling all the necessary information to be successful in your suit.

I can confirm in the State of Nevada the statute of limitations is also two years.

After my incident(s) aka winning et al at The Venetian, which I have previously posted some details, my counsel, Bob Nersesian, and I planned to wait exactly 2 years before filing the actual lawsuit. FTR, I can't remember if the two years ran from the date of the incident(s) or from the date my counsel gave The Venetian official notice to preserve all the surveillance tapes (do this asap).

As you mention typically most cases (patron related in Vegas) are settled and never made public. So the above was a primary reason for the decision (as well as avoiding especially in my rare case what would have been expensive litigation) as you state for not filing until "the last minute". This may have not been the case (npi) if I had not put up a low 5 figure retainer and agreed to a legal fee arrangement that was based on a hourly fee basis plus contingency fee basis as most cases are simply taken on a contingency fee basis.

I am glad you made your post as the legal process in these relatively new type of casino/gaming related cases can take years. Iirc, the best known Grosjean et al case was appoximately 5 years +/- until all final resolutions. The legnthy legal process time frame for Plaintiffs' is a primary reason casinos continue to abuse patrons in multiple ways and ignore the law.

FTR, The Venetian pulled some of the same as they did on moi about 13 months after I put them on notice in mid 2005 on another patron (who was local) in 2006 including theft of funds by Venetian security, humm! Kudos to Bob N. and the Plaintiff filing a lawsuit and winning on all counts 2 1/2 years later in November 2008 and it was not about the money.

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I have no idea about the Casino Club situation (except the bot BS reminds me of the FL F.U. BS) but either way I will not be shocked. Carry On.

 

[Casino Club]

Isn't it time we changed the agenda from the player to asking what the casino will do with the money once they prove their case?

Hey Folks,

As previoussly mentioned in my last post (even though it was many weeks ago), once the issue is settled, the money will go back into the JP pool.

Casino Club is not a rogue Casino and we have no interest in behaving as such. When our claims were proven wrong in the past, we apologised and paid our players, no questions asked.

The player has recently lodged a complaint with the LGA of Malta and when they take a stand on this issue I am sure everything will be clearer to all.

We are dealing here with a very delicate issue. The money in question cannot return to the JP pool until the issue is resolved. The reason being that if money is returned to JP Pool and another player wins the JP, what would Casino Club do should we be eventually overruled and money has to go to realplayer?? Take it out of our own pockets?? Take it out once again from the JP Pool??

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, this case is in the hands of the LGA and Casino Club will not be dragged into endless discussions until they make a decision.

Regards

 

[thelawnet]

Casino Club is not a rogue Casino and we have no interest in behaving as such. When our claims were proven wrong in the past, we apologised and paid our players, no questions asked.

The problem is that the previous misjudgement was so blatant, players don't trust your claims any more.

The player has recently lodged a complaint with the LGA of Malta and when they take a stand on this issue I am sure everything will be clearer to all.

So we've only about nine months to wait. Great.

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, this case is in the hands of the LGA and Casino Club will not be dragged into endless discussions until they make a decision.

I'm not sure this player has been well advised. Do the LGA ever do anything other than follow what the casino says?

 

[maxd]

I'm pulling the "[Bogus Claim]" tag on this thread because they jury is still out and Bryan and I are actively working on it.

 

[Rusty]

Hey Folks,

As previoussly mentioned in my last post (even though it was many weeks ago), once the issue is settled, the money will go back into the JP pool.

Casino Club is not a rogue Casino and we have no interest in behaving as such. When our claims were proven wrong in the past, we apologised and paid our players, no questions asked.

The player has recently lodged a complaint with the LGA of Malta and when they take a stand on this issue I am sure everything will be clearer to all.

We are dealing here with a very delicate issue. The money in question cannot return to the JP pool until the issue is resolved. The reason being that if money is returned to JP Pool and another player wins the JP, what would Casino Club do should we be eventually overruled and money has to go to realplayer?? Take it out of our own pockets?? Take it out once again from the JP Pool??

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, this case is in the hands of the LGA and Casino Club will not be dragged into endless discussions until they make a decision.

Regards

Thank you for that contribution it is great to hear from someone from CasinoClub.

The reason people are concerned about the Jackpot not being returned is because CC has indicated that their case is water tight against the player through various statements and thus there would be no possibility of an outcome that was not in Casino Clubs favour.
Obviously that assumption is incorrect and doubt remains
(As you rightly point out you have made claims that have been proved wrong in the past) until a ruling is made but your assurances the Jackpot will be returned as soon as there is a resolution are very welcome.

Also it is noted that you have made amends when these claims have been proved wrong in the past but it is obviously of great concern to players that these claims result in the seizure of their funds and closing of their accounts on what is spurious evidence.

Is it possible you could clarify another matter of concern for members?
Is it correct that the player deposited 25,000 euro and this deposit was also seized along with any winnings/bonus amount by Casino Club.
If so how do Casino Club justify this?

Can you also explain Casino Clubs statement that a bot was used that gave the player a statistical advantage over the Casino?

Finally, it is obvious that wrongful seizure of players funds and closure of accounts is, even in the best light, willfully negligent (previous cases) but assuming it is a case of negligence what are Casino Club doing to rectify the situation?
Are you going to continue to use the same methods of detection for bot play which have proved so inadequate and damaging to Casino Clubs reputation in the past?
Surely this is a matter that needs clarification for the good of the player , Casino Club and indeed the industry as a whole.

I hope you can see this is not an attack on Casino Club or yourself as a representative and the matters I have raised are genuine concerns stated without malice.

 

[RobWin]

Hey Folks,

As previoussly mentioned in my last post (even though it was many weeks ago), once the issue is settled, the money will go back into the JP pool.

Casino Club is not a rogue Casino and we have no interest in behaving as such. When our claims were proven wrong in the past, we apologised and paid our players, no questions asked.

The player has recently lodged a complaint with the LGA of Malta and when they take a stand on this issue I am sure everything will be clearer to all.

We are dealing here with a very delicate issue. The money in question cannot return to the JP pool until the issue is resolved. The reason being that if money is returned to JP Pool and another player wins the JP, what would Casino Club do should we be eventually overruled and money has to go to realplayer?? Take it out of our own pockets?? Take it out once again from the JP Pool??

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, this case is in the hands of the LGA and Casino Club will not be dragged into endless discussions until they make a decision.

Regards

It would also like to know from Casino Club and for their benefit too, if in fact the "Jackpot Funds" in question are being held in an Escrow Account somewhere ??

 

[kmay87]

Casino Club is not a rogue Casino and we have no interest in behaving as such. When our claims were proven wrong in the past, we apologised and paid our players, no questions asked.

Firstly, a big thanks for responding to us

The big problem here has been a lack of communication from both the player and the casino. While your post didn't answer hardly any of the questions we all have, it's good to hear at least something, even though it looks as if we are in for a long wait to hear of the resolution.

However, I couldn't help but comment on the above. I don't want to derail the thread, and this is still relevant, but I can categorically say you didn't apologise in my case. I can't speak for other players, but after being called a liar and a cheat on the phone, I was told in no uncertain terms that I wasn't going to have my deposit returned. It was only thanks to finding this website, and subsequently Max, that I saw that money again. Your manager Emily was lovely, and she even went to the trouble of personally phoning me to check I had received my refund. I can't fault that part of your service, but it was still believed I used a bot. That I'm afraid did and will always keep me away from playing again.

Do you not have a policy, similar to that of most other casinos, whereby in a case of suspected bot use, a players' deposit is returned and their account is closed? The majority of complaints posted on this forum have been when you confiscated deposits and basically went AWOL. Surely this can't be doing your reputation much good?

 

[uungy]

I have been following this intently. While I have had a good bashing at CC, I do honestly think that they could pay this out, and I cant really understand what the problem is.

What I am now finding harder to understand, aparently "realplayer" has not been responding to the lewyers, however now it seems its all sailing through the LGA.

So is realplayer responding, or isnt he?

This is getting more confusing as we go along

 

[The Dude]

...What I am now finding harder to understand, aparently "realplayer" has not been responding to the lewyers, however now it seems its all sailing through the LGA.

So is realplayer responding, or isnt he?

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing. I suggested he follow that up with a phone call. I guess he's waiting to be told what to do.

How he has handled this is beyond puzzling - it's absurd.

If I - or any of you for that matter - had won a jackpot of this size, and the casino failed to pay out, and then sent a lawyer letter claiming that I had committed fraud, and that they could prove this...I would have been all over this like a freak. Like Pinababy stated earlier, I'd be on this like white is on rice.

There are plenty of law firms that I'm sure would have glady handled this. Hell, I could refer him to another firm that is in the same state as Hambach & Hambach and are expertise in gaming law.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

Am I alone with these thoughts, or am I missing something?

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

 

[kmay87]

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing. I suggested he follow that up with a phone call. I guess he's waiting to be told what to do.

How he has handled this is beyond puzzling - it's absurd.

If I - or any of you for that matter - had won a jackpot of this size, and the casino failed to pay out, and then sent a lawyer letter claiming that I had committed fraud, and that they could prove this...I would have been all over this like a freak. Like Pinababy stated earlier, I'd be on this like white is on rice.

There are plenty of law firms that I'm sure would have glady handled this. Hell, I could refer him to another firm that is in the same state as Hambach & Hambach and are expertise in gaming law.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

Am I alone with these thoughts, or am I missing something?

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

My concerns in this thread have little to do with the actual player. There is clearly something more to this.

However, the issue of the disappearing progressive jackpot is what keeps me posting in here. If it was the casino's money, then I'd let it go. But it isn't. We have been told the same story from the start - 'what happens if we put the money back in the pool and then a court decides we have to pay the player?' As far as I see it, they are either confident in their refusal to pay, or they are not. Asking rhetorical questions to us really doesn't achieve anything.

 

[The Dude]

...We have been told the same story from the start - 'what happens if we put the money back in the pool and then a court decides we have to pay the player?' As far as I see it, they are either confident in their refusal to pay, or they are not...

@ Casino Club - is there a deadline as to when these funds will be put back into the pool?

 

[Tengil]

And is there a deadline when at least the players 25 000 deposit is going to be refunded?

 

[The Dude]

And is there a deadline when at least the players 25 000 deposit is going to be refunded?

Probably no refund. Generally speaking, refunds are usually given to advantage players whose accounts are closed. This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

 

[Pinababy69]

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing. I suggested he follow that up with a phone call. I guess he's waiting to be told what to do.

How he has handled this is beyond puzzling - it's absurd.

If I - or any of you for that matter - had won a jackpot of this size, and the casino failed to pay out, and then sent a lawyer letter claiming that I had committed fraud, and that they could prove this...I would have been all over this like a freak. Like Pinababy stated earlier, I'd be on this like white is on rice.

There are plenty of law firms that I'm sure would have glady handled this. Hell, I could refer him to another firm that is in the same state as Hambach & Hambach and are expertise in gaming law.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

Am I alone with these thoughts, or am I missing something?

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

Just for the record.....I'm not siding with anyone, so no one is yanking anything.

Honest to God, I have so many unanswered questions.....and every time I start thinking about this thread, my head starts to spin. I mean really....I was seeing things in this thread the other day that weren't even there.

To hear that the LGA is involved, just muddies the water even further. IMO, they are about as useless as a set of a tits on a Brahma bull. Whoever advised this player to take his complaint there didn't do him any favours.

Some of the things that are bugging me about all of this -

The casino keeps saying this is a fraudulent player, but what is their definition of fraud? The lawyer's letter states "statistical prediction of playing patterns through use of illegal software".....I guess they mean bot use. That is NOT fraud. That is a breach of terms and conditions. Yes, if the player did indeed use a bot, then he contravened the T and C's, and is pretty much screwed I'd guess. But it's NOT fraud, not IMO anyway. And if they are denying his win based on this....what are they using for proof? It sure as hell had better be more substantial proof than they used against Heffernan....cause that was a load of BS.

The lawyer's letter mentions another account opened under a female identity. Is this or isn't it fact? Does this player have multiple accounts? Have you seen proof of this Bryan?

There has been mention of the player being linked to a group of bonus abusers and BOT players. Is this a group of people who signed up from the same forum ie. that German forum perhaps? That doesn't make them fraudulent, it makes them advantage players. Unless they are all playing from the same computer(s) and claiming multiple bonuses, or using stolen identities or something. This needs some serious clarification. Again....what type of fraud are we talking about here?

More than once, the player was accused of providing a non-legit physical address....yet we know that can't be the case, because he obviously received the letter from the lawyer. Also, I'm sure I read where he had played here previously, and cashed out. You can't cashout from a Boss Media casino without the security PIN code being mailed to you at your physical address. From the Casino Club website:

When you make your first deposit, we will automatically send a security code to the address you provided when registering your personal account. As the security code is sent to the address you registered, and since it must be entered to review certain financial transactions, it is ensured that your transactions are safe.

So he played before, he cashed out before....he must have received this PIN code in the mail. But when he wins almost 200K, all of a sudden CC "discovers" he's a fraud. Why didn't they pick up on this before?

KMAY just made another very valid point...either Casino Club is 110% confident that their "proof" is solid, or they aren't. They can't have their cake and eat it too. If he's truly a fraud, and they can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt.....then return the money to its rightful owners.

But yes Bryan, I keep coming back to what you've said. WTF is wrong with this guy? I would have had a lawyer the second I received that letter from CC's lawyers. That very day. No screwing around with LGA, or (no offense Bryan) PAB's. You fight fire with fire. And if this is the route that CC wants to go....then fine. They'd be hearing from MY legal counsel. Why in God's name has this guy not done this? It makes not one lick of sense to me. At first I thought maybe he was concerned about court costs, or legal fees. But....if he's confident in his case, and sure he would win it....where is the problem? And if he can afford to deposit 25K, then surely a retainer to a legal firm shouldn't be too much of a hardship.

So none of it makes sense to me. On one hand you have a player who insists he's genuine (has anyone ever asked him if he used a BOT BTW), but who won't pursue the matter vigorously. On the other hand, you have a casino who has already been shown to be too quick to jump the gun on this bot play accusation, with basically zero proof, or very little. Who won't really clarify EXACTLY what they're accusing this player of.

Has Realplayer sent in id to the casino? If so....what form of ID? Has he sent a passport, or driver's licence or birth certificate? Has he sent copies of credit cards?

And then the last thing....while not totally related....does give me pause. And that's the predatory terms being added into Affiliate Club's T&C's. This means something, and speaks to the ethics of the whole organization. It could also mean that like so many other companies (and people) these days, maybe they're feeling the pinch. That's just a thought on my part. But like I've said before....if the affy program is gonna screw affiliates, no reason to have 100% faith in the casino treating their players fairly.

None of this sits right with me. And I have this strange feeling that this is going to be one of these cases, where it never really does. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied. And Bryan, that has nothing to do with you, or with questioning your integrity, for the record. I just don't feel like any of us will ever know the "whole" truth about any of it. I don't trust Casino Club, and I don't for the life of me understand the player.

Probably no refund. Generally speaking, refunds are usually given to advantage players whose accounts are closed. This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

No refund?

Again, I'm back to what in the hell type of fraud are they accusing this guy of that in any way would justify confiscating a 25K deposit? Was this deposit made by Credit Card, or ewallet? Seeing as six months have gone by, it would be too late to do a chargeback via credit card. So Casino Club can rest assured that the 25K charge is finalized. If it was a credit card, was it in this player's name? And if so, huh?

I had been going to ask you if you would consider allowing RealPlayer to post here, because I honestly think this is the only way I'm going to be able to put this to rest in my own mind....if I can talk (post) to him directly. But....I'm not sure if he speaks English. I don't think so, as I've tried to wade through that German forum, and everything is in German. It looks like he may have a translator, but I'm not positive.

I'm honestly baffled beyond belief. So one final question for you Bryan....putting aside for just a minute this player's bizarre behaviour....what makes you so sure this guy is a fraud? Have you seen evidence (I know you can't share specifics) of multiple accounts, or identity theft? Are you convinced the player used a bot? Okay, two questions, lol.

Help me out here, cause I'm really struggling with trying to wrap my head around ALL of this.

Note: I didn't proofread this, so if there are errors, or it's a bit disjointed, you'll all just have to live with it.

 

[kmay87]

Pinababy summed up most of my frustrations

As well as all the answered questions, we are now mounting up a list of opposites. For example:

Casino Club says they aren't taking legal action. The player says he isn't. The Casino's solicitors send out a letter. CC then says the player is taking legal action. He then says he has filed a complaint with the LGA.

CC says he played a game different to that of which he won the jackpot, using a bot. Then it went to some kind of clairvoyant bot. Finally, it made statistical predictions to give him an advantage. Either it interfered with their software, or it merely predicted the outcome using perfect strategy

CC says they can't pay him the win. But we know they did pay it, and then took it back.

The list is endless.

I was and still am in favour of closing this thread. I could quite easily post on this topic day in, day out, but it comes to a point that we really are debating stuff that may go unanswered for some time. It's good that Bryan is in contact with both CC and the player, but CC basically refused to be drawn in on this discussion. I really don't see where this thread can go unless we get some valid input from them.

 

[The Dude]

For the record, Realplayer was banned for misrepresenting his PAB. When his PAB was forwarded to the casino, the casino's reply included the receipt of the lawyer's letter delivery and they explained that this was in their attorney's hands. The player came back and denied that he had been contacted - even though we had proof.

We gave him the contact details of the legal firm, told him to contact them and settle this. The PAB was closed and so was the player's account (for the above mentioned reasons). This was in December. It's now three months later - with no movement whatsoever....except this thread keeps going on

Realplayer's English is just fine by the way. It's more coherent than many native speakers that I deal with

 

[Zodiac]

I had been going to ask you if you would consider allowing RealPlayer to post here, because I honestly think this is the only way I'm going to be able to put this to rest in my own mind....if I can talk (post) to him directly. But....I'm not sure if he speaks English.

same opinion too Pina, and yes he is able to post in your language

I've tried to wade through that German forum, and everything is in German.

yes it's in german and you must also use a translator

it is the same if i like to post here

@ Bryan

Take him back from banning and allow him to post, that will be more as fair.

Give him the chance Bryan, the situation is already complicated enough.

 

[Rusty]

This stinks from both the Casino's and players perspective, no doubt about it.

You are not alone Pinababy and you have the same pertinent questions as the rest of us that so far have received no definitive answer.

Bryan;
This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Yes accused by the people who stole his money as the known facts stand.
You are making some pretty strong statements here Bryan so I can only assume you have seen or possess evidence that realplayer blatantly tried to "rip off" Casino Club.That statement goes well beyond your instincts.
For the benefit of your members could you please state whether you have seen conclusive proof that this Guy is a fraud.

Do you consider it acceptable practice that a Casino steals ( to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share[though most definitions fit]) funds of any player it suspects of fraud?
Or is this just a nice little bonus for Casino's to profit from fraud?

I disagree that anyone is "having their chain yanked" by the player here, we have not even heard from the Guy.
All the doubts and questions here have been brought about by Casino Clubs actions not by information(lack of) from the player.
Many have stated that they smell a rat.

As Pinababy states what does this accusation of fraud relate to?
It can not be bot play so surely it must be multiple accounts, if this is the case then no doubt it can be easily proved and Realplayer is wasting everyones time so lets get the Jackpot money back where it belongs and we can treat the issue of bot play as Red Herring.

However if the fraud accusation relates to bot play then Casino Club are digging a very large and deep hole for themselves.

It is unfortunate that this is going through the LGA Malta and not the courts but perhaps understandable given the reticence of both parties.

 

[The Dude]

This stinks from both the Casino's and players perspective, no doubt about it.

You are not alone Pinababy and you have the same pertinent questions as the rest of us that so far have received no definitive answer.

Bryan;
This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Actually - this was a generalization of two separate observations. I should have separated the sentences with a paragraph. For example:

The casino has accused him of fraudulent activity.

It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who (purportedly) blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Better?

As I mentioned earlier, his account was closed because of misrepresenting his PAB. If I mentioned closed because of fraud, then I mispoke - please remember Max and I have dealt with scores of PABs since then, and I am dealing with a number of other issues/projects as well.

For casinos to confiscate deposits of fraudsters, that is a complex issue that should be dealt with one-on-one. Example: if a player knowingly attempts to defraud a casino by using fake IDs or opening phony accounts, then yes he is forfeiting his deposit. Casinos deal with processing issues daily, in most cases they are billed for their transactions etc. Why should it be expected for them to invest the man hours and resources it take to transfer fraudsters deposits back to fraudsters? Makes no sense. It would be open season on casinos then. The bottom line is that it is up to the casino to deal with this.

Fraud is not bonus abuse or advantage play by the way. But I don't think this pertains to this situation.

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

@realplayer - be cool - don't be playin' us

 

[thelawnet]

I've been in contact with him via email. He stated yesterday that he contacted the LGA three months ago, so far he's heard nothing.

Now there's a surprise.

The LGA are a disgrace.

Why has this player not done this? Why has he "contacted" the LGA three months ago and just let it sit? Why has he been so passive?

Not sure, still no answer to my questions I see.

This is a no brainer. You guys who are siding with "realplayer" are having your chains yanked. He's living up to his handle because he's "playing" you.

Not sure about 'siding' with him, the casino haven't presented a credible case against him. He's innocent until proven guilty as far as I'm concerned.

First they said he was using a bot.

Now at some point the claim about multiple identities has appeared.

What's up with that? Why didn't they mention that at the beginning?

If he had a case, this would have been resolved in August/September.

I'm not sure what has happened between August and December. I can see contacting the LGA has killed months of time (why didn't the casino mention this before, the LGA would have contacted them directly when they received the complaint, so why is it only now that this is their reason for not communicating?), because that's how they operate, but not the first four months.

My gut instincts tell me "player fraud" - and my instincts are right 98% of the time

But like Max said, the jury's still out. We'll wait and see a little longer.

Indeed. Instincts aren't enough to convict.

 

[The Dude]

...I'm not sure what has happened between August and December. I can see contacting the LGA has killed months of time (why didn't the casino mention this before, the LGA would have contacted them directly when they received the complaint, so why is it only now that this is their reason for not communicating?), because that's how they operate, but not the first four months.

Yeah it's odd that the casino didn't mention this. It's also odd that the player didn't mention this either until yesterday.

Was the LGA in fact contacted? (as if this would matter, unfortunately )

 

[thelawnet]

Actually - this was a generalization of two separate observations. I should have separated the sentences with a paragraph. For example:

The casino has accused him of fraudulent activity.

It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who (purportedly) blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Better?

As I mentioned earlier, his account was closed because of misrepresenting his PAB. If I mentioned closed because of fraud, then I mispoke - please remember Max and I have dealt with scores of PABs since then, and I am dealing with a number of other issues/projects as well.

For casinos to confiscate deposits of fraudsters, that is a complex issue that should be dealt with one-on-one. Example: if a player knowingly attempts to defraud a casino by using fake IDs or opening phony accounts, then yes he is forfeiting his deposit.

I see that they did actually mention this in their letter of 21st August 2008

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(bad translation):

In addition, our clients also sufficient information available, which is another violation of the Terms of evidence, namely a violation of Section 12 of the "business condition". The information that our clients are available, refer to the violation of the rules that a user of the online casinos www.casinoclub.com only one player account may lead. According to the information you have at least one other player account at misleading use of female contact information opens up.

My view is the most likely explanation of the player's behaviour was that he was concerned about this particular paragraph (i.e. that it's true).

Even so, it seems odd to ignore 200k even in the face of such a claim.

Even if Casino Club can present evidence to show that the players are connected (perhaps the same computer was used, or something of that kind), I don't see that that affects the enforceability of mike64's win. Mike64 is realplayer, mike64 won the jackpot, the ID fraud is a separate issue.

Sure, Casino Club could reasonably deduct the bonuses given to this female alter ego from the payout, but I don't see that they affect the issue that mike64 genuinely did win the jackpot.

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

Let's hope he does.

 

[uungy]

Easier to see the pdf here

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[Zodiac]

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

thank you Bryan

I have informed realplayer that he can now post here again and hopefully he will answer some questions here.

 

[winbig]

Easier to see the pdf here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Sure, if you can read German....

doesn't do much good if you don't, especially since the online translators don't do a very good job. They pretty much just give a literal translation (word for word) and you can't get much more than a basic idea of what's being said.

 

[Rusty]

Actually - this was a generalization of two separate observations. I should have separated the sentences with a paragraph. For example:

The casino has accused him of fraudulent activity.

It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who (purportedly) blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Better?

As I mentioned earlier, his account was closed because of misrepresenting his PAB. If I mentioned closed because of fraud, then I mispoke - please remember Max and I have dealt with scores of PABs since then, and I am dealing with a number of other issues/projects as well.

For casinos to confiscate deposits of fraudsters, that is a complex issue that should be dealt with one-on-one. Example: if a player knowingly attempts to defraud a casino by using fake IDs or opening phony accounts, then yes he is forfeiting his deposit. Casinos deal with processing issues daily, in most cases they are billed for their transactions etc. Why should it be expected for them to invest the man hours and resources it take to transfer fraudsters deposits back to fraudsters? Makes no sense. It would be open season on casinos then. The bottom line is that it is up to the casino to deal with this.

Fraud is not bonus abuse or advantage play by the way. But I don't think this pertains to this situation.

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

@realplayer - be cool - don't be playin' us

Thank you for clarifying that Bryan because it did appear to me that you were referring to Realplayers account with Casino Club.
It was not the statement itself but rather the context in which it was used.
It was certainly not a pedantic remark I made but a very serious point.
Can I take from this that you have not seen any conclusive evidence he held a fraudulent account at Casino Club?

I am not saying fraudulent deposits (from stolen cards etc) should be returned to the fraudster, of course not.
I am saying that the proper authorities should be informed and the deposit held and hopefully returned to the rightful owners in due course.
If they simply keep the money and do not pursue justice then the fraudster is left free to commit another crime and who suffers really?
Not the Casinos and not the fraudster but the ordinary Joe on the Street as usual.
I would fully expect the Casino to claim/deduct reasonable expenses and costs.
I do agree that the issue is a complex One but I feel it is abused by Casinos who look upon it as nice little earner and for them to keep misappropriated funds is embezzlement as far as I can see.
Yes I accept it is up to the Casino how they deal with this but Stealing from a thief is hardly justifiable.
Ok I do not want to muddy the waters anymore than they already are but it is an impotant issue and relevant to this case.
I would welcome an open discussion on the issue if Casinomeister feels this would be better served in another thread.

May I aslo I welcome the fact that you have reopened Realplayers account.
I think this is a smart move because should He not appear that will reflect very badly on Him and if He does appear He can be sure He will get the same thorough questioning as Casino Club.

 

[Zodiac]

Sure, if you can read German....

doesn't do much good if you don't, especially since the online translators don't do a very good job. They pretty much just give a literal translation (word for word) and you can't get much more than a basic idea of what's being said.

yes indeed

 

[Pinababy69]

In all fairness, I'll reinstate Realplayer's account so perhaps he can answer some questions here as well.

@realplayer - be cool - don't be playin' us

Thank you Bryan, it is appreciated.

I see that they did actually mention this in their letter of 21st August 2008

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(bad translation):

In addition, our clients also sufficient information available, which is another violation of the Terms of evidence, namely a violation of Section 12 of the "business condition". The information that our clients are available, refer to the violation of the rules that a user of the online casinos www.casinoclub.com only one player account may lead. According to the information you have at least one other player account at misleading use of female contact information opens up.

My view is the most likely explanation of the player's behaviour was that he was concerned about this particular paragraph (i.e. that it's true).

Even so, it seems odd to ignore 200k even in the face of such a claim.

Even if Casino Club can present evidence to show that the players are connected (perhaps the same computer was used, or something of that kind), I don't see that that affects the enforceability of mike64's win. Mike64 is realplayer, mike64 won the jackpot, the ID fraud is a separate issue.

Sure, Casino Club could reasonably deduct the bonuses given to this female alter ego from the payout, but I don't see that they affect the issue that mike64 genuinely did win the jackpot.

I hate to disagree Lawnet....but, if it is shown beyond a doubt that there are multiple accounts, then I personally don't see where the player has a leg to stand on. You can't just deduct the bonuses issued previously, and say okay, pay the guy what's left of the 167K. Signing up multiple accounts, and claiming bonuses with more than one account is considered fraud, at least as I understand it. IMO, he would forfeit his win.

I am not saying fraudulent deposits (from stolen cards etc) should be returned to the fraudster, of course not.

I am saying that the proper authorities should be informed and the deposit held and hopefully returned to the rightful owners in due course. If they simply keep the money and do not pursue justice then the fraudster is left free to commit another crime and who suffers really? Not the Casinos and not the fraudster but the ordinary Joe on the Street as usual. I would fully expect the Casino to claim/deduct reasonable expenses and costs.I do agree that the issue is a complex One but I feel it is abused by Casinos who look upon it as nice little earner and for them to keep misappropriated funds is embezzlement as far as I can see.

Yes I accept it is up to the Casino how they deal with this but Stealing from a thief is hardly justifiable.

I've highlighted the bolded parts, as I agree 100% Rusty. If he does have multiple accounts, then by all means, nullify the jackpot win, and deduct reasonable admin costs....but to confiscate 25K? Sorry, but I can't get on board with that.

EDITED TO ADD: If I disappear, it's because my goddamn internet has been off and on for the last four hours. I spent half an hour on that first post this morning, and when I hit post, my internet went out. I wasn't sure if the post went through or not. And it's been intermittent ever since. I'm losing my mind...uuugghhh!!

So Rusty, if RealPlayer shows up.....you know what to ask right? LOL.....

 

[dominique]

Well, all this stuff going on with Casino Club is cause for affiliates to proceed with caution. However, for those who would rather not deal with controversial places and want to pull Casino Club, Affiliate Club, the marketing arm, sprung an unannounced nasty surprise.

In the still of night and without any announcement they added a quota to their affiliate T&Cs. So, if affiliates decide they do not want to send their players to Casino Club anymore, they are punished by having monies already earned withheld.

 

[RobWin]

It would also like to know from Casino Club and for their benefit too, if in fact the "Jackpot Funds" in question are being held in an Escrow Account somewhere ??

Why will Casino Club NOT answer this simple question here...I think that in itself speaks volumns against CC !!

Probably no refund. Generally speaking, refunds are usually given to advantage players whose accounts are closed. This guy is accused of fraudulent activity. It's a rare even that a casino refunds the deposits of someone who blatantly tried to rip them off with bogus accounts etc.

Can you please Define and Clarify the term "fraudulent activity" as it relates to this particular situation ?

For the record, Realplayer was banned for misrepresenting his PAB. When his PAB was forwarded to the casino, the casino's reply included the receipt of the lawyer's letter delivery and they explained that this was in their attorney's hands. The player came back and denied that he had been contacted - even though we had proof.

Was this receipt by means of a "Signed" Certified letter that was actually signed for by "realplayer" himself ??

Another words we know for a fact it was "realplayers" actual signature and not that of someone else ??

 

[Tengil]

Well this truly stinks, on CCs part. They have lied about the address and the legal issue.

If the player would be a multiaccounter why drag any "bot" accusations into the case?

And LGA, its an even bigger joke than Kahnawake.

 

[The Dude]

Well, all this stuff going on with Casino Club is cause for affiliates to proceed with caution. However, for those who would rather not deal with controversial places and want to pull Casino Club, Affiliate Club, the marketing arm, sprung an unannounced nasty surprise.

In the still of night and without any announcement they added a quota to their affiliate T&Cs. So, if affiliates decide they do not want to send their players to Casino Club anymore, they are punished by having monies already earned withheld.

Even so - it's a separate issue from this one and even convolutes this even more. I'll probably begin another thread in the webmaster's section concerning this.

Nevertheless - the big picture of the CC situation does not fare with me very well. They are not making things easy for themselves.

 

[dominique]

Even so - it's a separate issue from this one and even convolutes this even more. I'll probably begin another thread in the webmaster's section concerning this.

Nevertheless - the big picture of the CC situation does not fare with me very well. They are not making things easy for themselves.

It really ticks me off because it looks like they are deliberately trying to prevent webmasters from acting on player information.

I just blacklisted them for this.

 

[The Dude]

Why will Casino Club NOT answer this simple question here...I think that in itself speaks volumns against CC !!

Perhaps because the thread is 25+ pages long and has gone every which way but south.

Can you please Define and Clarify the term "fraudulent activity" as it relates to this particular situation ?

I already explained that my statement was misunderstood earlier. The casino is accusing him of fraudulent activity - I had accused him of not being straightforward with me and Max concerning the PAB.

Was this receipt by means of a "Signed" Certified letter that was actually signed for by "realplayer" himself ??


Another words we know for a fact it was "realplayers" actual signature and not that of someone else ??

The receipt is from a certified letter that was signed for - the signature is a scribble - but the fact that this letter was delivered to realplayer's address in August is supported by this receipt.

Besides - realplayer has had this letter for sure for a couple of weeks since it's been posting in cyberland. Why didn't he act on this immediately?

Don't forget - this is for play that occurred in June of last year, right?

... They have lied about the address and the legal issue.

If the player would be a multiaccounter why drag any "bot" accusations into the case?

And LGA, its an even bigger joke than Kahnawake.

Posts like this will get this thread locked in a New York minute. Drop the emotional rants.

 

[RobWin]

Yea, I definitely understand everyone's concern as to the question "why has "realplayer" taken so long to act on some of these issues"? It baffles me too, but when you consider the fact that this guy can actually afford to make a $25,000.00 deposit then it also tells me that he is really well off and may be to the extreme point of being "Eccentric" ( term used for Rich folks... )....whereas in the same scenario the term "crazy" is used for us poor folks...

 

[The Dude]

Thread upgraded to closed

For sanity's sake, I'm locking this thread and starting a new one where members can ask questions of CC and of realplayer so we can have a better understanding of exactly what has been going on.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ncerning-the-confiscations-of-winnings.30072/

Please feel free to use posts in this thread as reference.

Please note: locking this thread is strictly being done for administrative reasons. We need to keep this issue focused, and it's all over the place at the moment. Thank you for your understanding.