Casino Club closed account of 167'500 JACKPOT winner

[Pinababy69]

yes he did have multi accounts on here thats why he was banned,also on casino. the names and addresses where fictious. Any normal person with that kind of money wouldn't wait 4 months to say anything about not getting paid.Back in jan o7 because of new usa law I had 19845dollars that took 3 months to get and i was in contact everyday!! There is somthing wron here,bad wrong.

Thanks Frenchie for the reply.

Bryan and/or Max....besides RealPlayer, what were his other account(s) here at the forum? Thanks.

 

[The Dude]

Thanks Frenchie for the reply.

Bryan and/or Max....besides RealPlayer, what were his other account(s) here at the forum? Thanks.

Actually, it was the casino that claimed this player had committed fraudulent activity, and that they had escalated this to a pending legal action. I've seen the emails, and it's no joke. I know the lawyers, and have used the same legal firm in the past.

This was in December, and the player was given the contact details of the legal firm - he needs to contact them and from there this can move on.

As far as I know this player hasn't done anything but complain on a few message boards. Max is checking into this now to see if this guy actually followed up on contacting the legal firm. Anyone want to place some bets that nothing from the player's end has happened?

If this guy was legit, this would have been taken care of months ago. So far I'm not too impressed with his complaint.

FWIW - there still seems to be a consensus amongst a number of members who believe that bot play is a fantasy made up by the casinos. Please don't waste my time - they exist - we even had PABers admit to using them. So please quit banging this drum - thanks!

 

[Pinababy69]

Actually, it was the casino that claimed this player had committed fraudulent activity, and that they had escalated this to a pending legal action. I've seen the emails, and it's no joke. I know the lawyers, and have used the same legal firm in the past.

This was in December, and the player was given the contact details of the legal firm - he needs to contact them and from there this can move on.

As far as I know this player hasn't done anything but complain on a few message boards. Max is checking into this now to see if this guy actually followed up on contacting the legal firm. Anyone want to place some bets that nothing from the player's end has happened?

If this guy was legit, this would have been taken care of months ago. So far I'm not too impressed with his complaint.

Fair enough Bryan, thanks for the reply....it's appreciated. I would like to know if/when you ever find out if the guy did indeed follow up on this, and contacted the legal firm in question.

 

[The Dude]

Fair enough Bryan, thanks for the reply....it's appreciated. I would like to know if/when you ever find out if the guy did indeed follow up on this, and contacted the legal firm in question.

Me too. If the guy is legit, it's a no brainer that he would be paid.

 

[Rusty]

Actually, it was the casino that claimed this player had committed fraudulent activity, and that they had escalated this to a pending legal action. I've seen the emails, and it's no joke. I know the lawyers, and have used the same legal firm in the past.

This was in December, and the player was given the contact details of the legal firm - he needs to contact them and from there this can move on.

As far as I know this player hasn't done anything but complain on a few message boards. Max is checking into this now to see if this guy actually followed up on contacting the legal firm. Anyone want to place some bets that nothing from the player's end has happened?

If this guy was legit, this would have been taken care of months ago. So far I'm not too impressed with his complaint.

FWIW - there still seems to be a consensus amongst a number of members who believe that bot play is a fantasy made up by the casinos. Please don't waste my time - they exist - we even had PABers admit to using them. So please quit banging this drum - thanks!

Eh?
I haven't seen a single post denying that bots exist or are used.

As we know from recent history the big problem is proving that a bot was used and even defining what that proof might be.

We also know bot play does not give the player an advantage over the casino (except when used with some bonuses) it simply lessens the Casinos advantage over the player, a very important distinction and the only fantasy I am aware of is the Casinos claiming it can predict a random result.

Now your point of view is that if it is the Casinos T&C's that bots can not be used and One is then case closed, the player is in the wrong.
Well in a Black and White World where everything is right or wrong then that maybe true but the regulated World is not like that let alone the World of online gambling.

It is an unreasonable T&C because bot play can not be proved beyond doubt and because it is a subjective opinion made by Casinos this logically means that some innocent players will be accused of bot play.
On those Two basis alone it is unreasonable.

I am sure you disagree but until bot play can be proved without doubt I will continue to bang that particular drum.

Back to the case in question;

If this Guy had multiple accounts he doesn't have a leg to stand on and CC are completely in the right.
The nagging doubt I have is that as far as I understand it they did not come straight out and say, "This guy used multiple accounts and we have the proof" no, they accused Him of bot play.
That does not sit right with me as surely all they needed to do to kill the matter dead was make the first statement and return the funds to the Jackpot.
Talking of which, where is the money?

If Realplayer does not follow this up then I will believe CC caught a fraud and good on them.
Return the money to the Jackpot and all they will be guilty of is handling the situation very badly.
People can forgive that and applaud them for keeping the cash out of a fraudulent players hands.

 

[Jufo]

FWIW - there still seems to be a consensus amongst a number of members who believe that bot play is a fantasy made up by the casinos. Please don't waste my time - they exist - we even had PABers admit to using them. So please quit banging this drum - thanks!

They falsely accused player "heffernan" of using a bot few months ago. Kmay87 told in this thread that he was falsely accused as well. Looking at their letter they don't seem to know how random games work. Given this, isn't it a reasonable possibility that they are wrong again?

 

[winbig]

We also know bot play does not give the player an advantage over the casino (except when used with some bonuses) it simply lessens the Casinos advantage over the player,

How can a bot lessen the HA? That's impossible if you're playing a non-rigged game...

Are you referring to the "human error" factor?

 

[thelawnet]

FWIW - there still seems to be a consensus amongst a number of members who believe that bot play is a fantasy made up by the casinos. Please don't waste my time - they exist - we even had PABers admit to using them. So please quit banging this drum - thanks!

I don't think anybody believes that, but when players with wild and risky bets of 500 a hand are accused of using a bot on a casino advantage game, something is totally out of whack.

 

[Rusty]

How can a bot lessen the HA? That's impossible if you're playing a non-rigged game...

Are you referring to the "human error" factor?

Yes and +ev with perfect strategy on some bonuses which admittedly probably do not exist anymore.
I was just trying to cover all bases.

 

[The Dude]

@ Rusty
As for players admitting to using bots, here's one who did:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

@ Everyone
There are numerous threads in this forum that discuss bot play, some of which are linked to websites that offer bot programs - so they exist and target specific casinos such as this one.

Bot or no bot, I firmly believe this player (realplayer) is a fraudster. Max has emailed him to find out whether or not he has contacted the casino's legal firm in Germany (or any firm at that). If he is a legit person/player, he would have taken this opportunity months ago.

We await his answer...still.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Bots exist - I have seen them for sale.

The latest versions are pretty good, and are very cheap compared to the potential profit if not caught.

The BIG problem is in catching them, but without catching a whole load of "dolphins" who have legitimately played using a printed out strategy table, and have achieved perfect "robotic" play by that method. Expert Blackjack players will have memorised perfect strategy off by heart, and will be able to play very fast indeed, and also very accurately. They could, given the right drive and circumstances, keep this up for a very long time with few breaks, just as many dedicated online poker players do.

Casinos seem to use play history analysis for the basis of "proving" bot use, however this would not be enough if the player took the issue to a court for the purpose of asking the term, and it's interpretation, to be struck out as "unfair" in a consumer contract. Casino security departments need to get their a$$es out there, spend a bit of money and take these bots apart, looking for objective ways to prove their use, such as a process signiature. They could also configure the casino software to abort at the first hint of bot play, they may well have to do this at both ends, in case the bot has replicated the local client routines, rather than running "piggy back" on the casino .exe module.
Bot users will constantly have their sessions booted after maybe the first couple of hands, and since the whole idea is that they can leave their PC unattended and bag the bonus, the bot itself will be rendered worthless as a bonus bagging tactic.
It is where bots are used with a +EV bonus that casinos have no chance in the long term. For ordinary players, the bot problem has lead to WR reaching "silly" levels with nearly all bonuses. There are also many restricted games, even ones for which I doubt bots even exist.

If realplayer has multiple accounts, the bot issue is irrelevant, and CC should never have brought it up, it has created a mess that needn't have been created.
The lawyers may well have served notice on one of his bogus accounts, and assume they cannot contact him on the grounds he did not reply. realplayer can state that he has not received a communication, but cannot prove it, only use it to damage CC's reputation.
CC CAN, however, create good proof of sending by having it PERSONALLY SERVED at his registered address, and actually require someone there to receive it. If he is not known at the address he registered at the casino, CC then have proof that a false address was registered, and this forms part of a proof for fraud.

If realplayer has decided to not bother fighting this, he seems to have also decided to NOT contact CC, but simply stir the issue on some forums. This is doing serious damage to CC, because they have kept back this very large jackpot pending a legal action that looks more and more like it will never happen.
A growing number of players are unhappy with this keeping of "their" jackpot pool by CC, rather than them busting realplayer for fraud.

 

[kmay87]

They falsely accused player "heffernan" of using a bot few months ago. Kmay87 told in this thread that he was falsely accused as well. Looking at their letter they don't seem to know how random games work. Given this, isn't it a reasonable possibility that they are wrong again?

My reasons for being accused were slightly different. My story was: I signed up and collected the 100% bonus, and played a little while on different games. A day or two after, I received a 'spinning wheel' strategy card from Ladbrokes. Although I thought I knew perfect strategy, I decided to use this. I played solid for 2-3 hours flat betting - simply because it was a new strategy and I didn't know if it would work.

Then, my account was closed and noone would speak to me either via email or phone. One instance, I was called 'a liar, a cheat and the very sort of person we do not want at our casino'. This was a message that had been posted on my account for everyone to see who worked there.

So, I prepared to sue them for defamation. And I was deadly serious. The irony here, is they didn't really care. It fits in with this case too. In my opinion, they are very stuck in their ways and refuse to acknowledge anything else. I had been in contact with the manager, who was very helpful, but she never got me my money back. The best she could do was to reopen my account, minus my deposit and the bonus.

At that time, I found this forum. And Max was successful in getting me my deposit back. It was only 100 Euro, but that wasn't the point. Although they paid up, they still believed I used a bot, and although I could use my account again, it will never happen. You don't return to anywhere that treats you like crap.

I am swayed towards this player being a fraud. It's just not feasible. This much money at stake, and he doesn't seem to care?

My only concern with this matter is seeing the jackpot win returned to its rightful owner. I also hope they issue a statement about this.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I think it's about time we had a press release from the regulator of this casino. Also I am surprised BOSS themselves don't make a statement.

Surely CC should make a statement saying that if the case is proven against the player then the money will be returned to the jackpot pool.

The lack of information forthcoming is bringing the CC, the regulator and BOSS into disrepute. If it doesn't get clarified eventually it will hit the mainstream press and it could be very damaging for the industry as a whole.

If you are an affiliate or an operator you should be worried about this situation. Just look at the damage done to poker by the Absolute scandal. It is putting doubt into everyone's minds.

 

[kmay87]

I think it's about time we had a press release from the regulator of this casino. Also I am surprised BOSS themselves don't make a statement.

Surely CC should make a statement saying that if the case is proven against the player then the money will be returned to the jackpot pool.

The lack of information forthcoming is bringing the CC, the regulator and BOSS into disrepute. If it doesn't get clarified eventually it will hit the mainstream press and it could be very damaging for the industry as a whole.

If you are an affiliate or an operator you should be worried about this situation. Just look at the damage done to poker by the Absolute scandal. It is putting doubt into everyone's minds.

This is what I have always said - the biggest problem that Casino Club has is its lack of communication. All they need is a good PR guy who can wittle out statements here there and everywhere about anything and everything. I would sooner read frequent communication, albeit perhaps slightly questionable, than nothing at all.

The comments we desire will not be time consuming. Nor will it be costly. But it will put many of us at ease.

 

[winbig]

This is what I have always said - the biggest problem that Casino Club has is its lack of communication. All they need is a good PR guy who can wittle out statements here there and everywhere about anything and everything. I would sooner read frequent communication, albeit perhaps slightly questionable, than nothing at all.

The comments we desire will not be time consuming. Nor will it be costly. But it will put many of us at ease.

I have a feeling that they're keeping quiet about this since they're pursuing legal action against this player..

 

[kmay87]

If that's the case, then of course that is perfectly acceptable. How and why the letter from their solicitor appeared online though is another matter. But do we actually know for certain that they are actioning legal proceedings? From what I've read, that letter was just a threat saying they have a strong defence should the player decide to sue. Quite what Casino Club would sue for though, I can't work out.

 

[heffernan]

for me the problem is, that realplayer let elapse so much time till he won...

if i had win this money, i would spend more time in to clear it.

ok. perhaps he hase enough money to let go much times..months, but i would not...

he was writing in other forum, that he is working for exectly answers to explane it...and tell us then....

 

[Rusty]

I have a feeling that they're keeping quiet about this since they're pursuing legal action against this player..

That would be prudent except have they not already made statements that the player used a bot and reopened an account as a female?

 

[heffernan]

I have a feeling that they're keeping quiet about this since they're pursuing legal action against this player..

I think cc has learned ... prefer to keep silent than to make mistakes (for example my published gaming history)

 

[kmay87]

That was in the 'leaked' copy of the solicitors' letter that appeared on the other forum.

My concern with these allegations is that what benefit would any person achieve by signing up for another account when there is nothing that appears to warrant such action - i.e. high bonuses etc.

 

[vinylweatherman]

That was in the 'leaked' copy of the solicitors' letter that appeared on the other forum.

My concern with these allegations is that what benefit would any person achieve by signing up for another account when there is nothing that appears to warrant such action - i.e. high bonuses etc.

Who leaked it?

Surely if it were CC, they have committed a VERY serious breach of the rules governing handling of this player's personal data, and worse still, have done this as a company. The ONLY entities to have lawful access to this letter are the lawyers, CC, and realplayer. IF it can be shown that it was realplayer who leaked it, then CC have evidence that realplayer RECEIVED it.

There is nothing to prevent him from signing up & pretending to be a rep for CC on any forum, and then "leaking" this letter, thus landing CC right in it.

 

[kmay87]

Leaked, as I wrote in inverted commas, suggesting that it wasn't necessarily leaked like we read in the press, but that somehow that letter appeared on the German forum. Off hand, I couldn't tell you who posted it, but I'm sure someone on here knows.

As you said, whoever decided to post this private and confidential letter for all to see on the internet was very silly indeed.

I suspect it was probably the player. I can't see CC being that careless. But don't quote me on it.

 

[RobWin]

Why don't someone in Germany just check the court filing records to see if in fact CC has filed a case against this player. If it's like it is here in the states it will be public info, as any court case is with regard to adults, of course minors are another situation.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Leaked, as I wrote in inverted commas, suggesting that it wasn't necessarily leaked like we read in the press, but that somehow that letter appeared on the German forum. Off hand, I couldn't tell you who posted it, but I'm sure someone on here knows.

As you said, whoever decided to post this private and confidential letter for all to see on the internet was very silly indeed.

I suspect it was probably the player. I can't see CC being that careless. But don't quote me on it.

If this turns out to be the case, then his claim that he never received it would be bogus, and it would be pretty clear then that he had been "up to something", despite his protestations of innocence.

What seems odd now is that realplayer is still happy to bitch & moan on the German forums, but does not seek to come over here, and bitch & moan for the far bigger global audience (although I suspect he might be banned rather quickly, or has this already happened).

He could even come here and PAB. If he has a good case, and wins, then CC will look even sillier. If he has a poor case, and responds to the court papers, and subsequently loses, he would have to pay CC their costs, and maybe some damages. Maybe he thinks this is a high enough risk for it to be worth his while keeping this out of the courts, even if this means walking away from the 167,500 Euro in the end.

 

[The Dude]

...
He could even come here and PAB. If he has a good case, and wins, then CC will look even sillier. If he has a poor case, and responds to the court papers, and subsequently loses, he would have to pay CC their costs, and maybe some damages. Maybe he thinks this is a high enough risk for it to be worth his while keeping this out of the courts, even if this means walking away from the 167,500 Euro in the end.

He already PABd here in December. We closed the case - based on the information from the casino and at hand, we concluded that this a bogus complaint. He misrepresented his case to us. We notified the player several times to get in contact with the legal firm (that has been trying to contact him as well), and take it from there. So far, he hasn't responded. If he can't bother to pick up a phone and call these guys, then tough titty for him. This is out of our hands.

And since the casino has referred this to their legal representatives, then this case is out of the casino management's hands as well.

He's a fraudster who has gained an audience in the German fora with his sniveling - sorry, but he won't find an audience here. I do not condone player fraud and using the fora to gain player sympathy.

 

[maxd]

Just thought I'd add a little detail here since I was in the thick of it (the PAB).

• The OP claimed that the casino was stiffing him;
• the casino replied that they had served legal papers to the guy but he was ignoring them;
• we told the OP to contact the legal firm;
• the OP denied it, said he knew nothing of a "legal" issue and claimed it was all bunk;
• the casino forwarded me copies of the papers and the courier receipt of their delivery from the legal firm to the OP with his signature (or someone signing his name);
• again we told the OP to contact the legal firm, with contact details;
• ... and that was the last we ever heard from him.

AFAWAC, the ball is deep in the OP's court ( ) and any of his protestations to the contrary are bullcrap.

 

[The Dude]

Yeah, I'm looking at the receipt at the moment - looks like he signed it on the 21st of August. Maybe he signed it and threw the letter away

From "RealPlayer" 31 December:

Hello,

An legal action against me ? I do not know anything of it. My account is already 4 months blocked. My opinion, there is no legal action against me.

Regards

"RealPlayer"

So this could either be a case of stolen identity and the REAL person with this player's name received this letter, and probably freaked out, or this player is just wasting everyone's time with lies.

I'm suggesting this thread be closed - if we receive additional information about this issue, we can always reopen it (it's an awfully long thread that is hard to manage).

Further discussions on bots can be started in new threads. Anyone say aye?

 

[maxd]

Aye!

The OP, or at least the person involved, has had ample opportunity to get in touch with us .. which they have not done since we referred them to the legal beagles involved. That ain't a coincidence.

 

[kmay87]

I agree. With no new information being released, and constant debate as to what is fact and what is fiction, we are starting to pull things apart just for the sake of doing so. And as you both said, there is no comment from realplayer so why should we continue on with this?

Perhaps as you seem to be in contact with CC you can keep us informed. At least we will believe the source of the facts and have no reason to question it.

 

[Pinababy69]

While I sure don't think that CC is squeaky clean in any of this, at least as it pertains to bot use....if that is the exact chain of events, then I can't help but feel that Real Player has something he's not telling us.

Bryan, you mentioned the receipt....it's funny. When I was reading the last few posts, a thought went through my mind. I wondered if asking you to show us the receipt would have been out of order. For myself personally, it would have been nothing to do with your credibility...but simply the fact that this is a ton of money, and I want to be 110% positive (in my own mind) before I let the issue drop. If you do find it, post away for sure. It would go a long way to easing my mind about some of this.

All I can say for sure is that if this were me, and I were an innocent player who had a legitimate win...I'd have a lawyer of my own. CC wouldn't have to contact me, I'd be on them like white on rice. This is well over a quarter of a million bucks in my currency...you don't just walk away from money like that.

All that being said, Casino Club would be about the last casino on earth I would ever play at, even if in this particular case....they have followed the rules. Their claims of "evidence" of bot play are, in some cases, outrageous. I honestly don't think they'd know a bot if it bit them in the ass. The bit in the letter from the lawyers, about using a bot that can "predict" outcomes is bizarre. If an outcome is truly random, there is no predicting it. They've handled all of this very poorly, not just this case.....but all of them. Thank God for this forum or Heffernan would also have been out 8K or whatever it was...and been branded a fraud.

There also seems to be a misconception re: the legal proceedings. From my own (poor) translation of that letter from the lawyers...I gather that Casino Club has not actually filed suit against Real Player, but is merely informing him that they reserve the right to do so. So they're not taking him to court....just saying they can if they want. Why not just go ahead and file the suit at least? If he doesn't show on the court date, then they will get their judgement, and for sure the money can be released back to the pot.

Last word.....if the casino has really followed all these steps re: legal proceedings, and this player refuses to acknowledge any of it.....how long do they plan on holding on to this jackpot money? It's not theirs, it belongs to the players. Surely there must be some statute of limitations in cases like this. A time when they can rest assured that THEY are not going to be sued. And if they truly have EVIDENCE of fraud, what are they waiting for? No one is going to forget they are holding this money, not ever. So I sure hope they plan on putting it back where it belongs, as soon as humanly possible.

If all this had happened with a casino with no previous baggage, it would sit alot better with me I guess. The only vibe I get from these guys is complete and total incompetence, at the very least. I'll be checking back once in a while to see if the money has been returned yet, as I'm sure will others. Some of us players have very long memories CC.

Edited to add: Just read the post Bryan where you found the receipt and were looking at the date on it. Nevermind the above part...I thought you had said you couldn't find it. My mistake, no coffee yet. Sorry.

 

[thelawnet]

Yeah, I'm looking at the receipt at the moment - looks like he signed it on the 21st of August. Maybe he signed it and threw the letter away

From "RealPlayer" 31 December:


So this could either be a case of stolen identity and the REAL person with this player's name received this letter, and probably freaked out, or this player is just wasting everyone's time with lies.

I'm suggesting this thread be closed - if we receive additional information about this issue, we can always reopen it (it's an awfully long thread that is hard to manage).

I put a number of questions to the player here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

He has yet to answer them, but says he will do so shortly. Not quite sure what's taking him so long.

This matter is clearly not closed, because Casino Club are in any case holding on to 142,500 of player funds (which are either realplayer's, or the other players at the casino). I don't see any point in closing a matter which is clearly far from resolved.

The facts are still elusive (much of which is down to the player of course) and Casino Club's PR has been woefully inadequate in explaining their behaviour.

Such basic facts as what the nature (how much they are claiming and for what reason, especially given the fact that they have apparently withheld 200k from the player) of Casino Club's legal action is against the player (which should be matter of public record) should be explained by Casino Club.

Why don't they make more effort to answer player questions? It's not as if this is a small sum of money, or an issue that just relates to one alleged fraudster. The fact that there is an 18-page thread rather than a much shorter one, is one that is in part the responsibility of Casino Club to address.

 

[maxd]

... I wondered if asking you to show us the receipt would have been out of order.

How B responds to your question is of course up to him but I can tell you that in pursuing the PAB issues I ask for such documents under an implicit, and sometimes explicit, Non-Disclosure Agreement: all parties assume that any access granted is for "your eyes only". Personally I would be very reluctant, in general, to start publishing such material on the forums, for obvious reasons.

The bottom line AFAIC is that if we break our trust with the PAB parties then we break the PAB process, nobody wins. For this reason I _never_ release PAB materials unless the need is truly exceptional and all parties agree. I don't see that this circumstance is included.

But, as ever, B is the man so if he has other ideas I'll roll with it.

 

[The Dude]

This just in from the player:

Hello Max,

here a short temporal expiry:

-22nd December: I receive your e mail with contact data from the lawyer.

-23nd December: I send an e mail to the lawyer. On the same day, the lawyer answers to me. He sends me an e mail with a PDF File.Iit is the same text in German on the Internet forum is published , for few days.

-7th January 2009 I send an e mail to the lawyer. I confirmed the receipt of his e mail from the 23rd December. I confirmed the validity of my address. In addition, I put some questions to the letter of the lawyer. But I have heard nothing more of Him.

Regards

Mike

So who signed for the lawyer letter that was delivered to the player's address in August?

@the player - what stops you from picking up a telephone and calling the lawyer's office?

Weird shit.

I'm in the midst of some other pressing matters at the moment and can't direct too much attention to this thread right now (my humble apologies). When I'm finished what I'm doing, I'll get CC to clear this matter up once and for all. Thanks!

 

[The Dude]

Concerning the receipt - this contains the guy's name, address, signature (?), and if I were to publish this, it would be all blanked out - so why publish it? There ain't nothing left to look at.

 

[Pinababy69]

How B responds to your question is of course up to him but I can tell you that in pursuing the PAB issues I ask for such documents under an implicit, and sometimes explicit, Non-Disclosure Agreement: all parties assume that any access granted is for "your eyes only". Personally I would be very reluctant, in general, to start publishing such material on the forums, for obvious reasons.

The bottom line AFAIC is that if we break our trust with the PAB parties then we break the PAB process, nobody wins. For this reason I _never_ release PAB materials unless the need is truly exceptional and all parties agree. I don't see that this circumstance is included.

But, as ever, B is the man so if he has other ideas I'll roll with it.

Yeah, you know Max I thought about that after the fact. I haven't had coffee yet, and didn't even read Bryan's post correctly. I read where he was "looking" for it, and my eyes saw what wasn't there. An offer to post it, lol. I seriously think my fingers are moving way ahead of my brain this a.m.

If he says he has a copy of it, good enough. I totally understand about not being able to share it publicly.

Which brings back up the point of who leaked that letter from the lawyers? As others have said, if it was Real Player....then that totally negates his claims of "what legal stuff"?

I mean going solely on what I've read here, and assuming it to be true.....the player screams "not on the up and up". But CC needs to get their act together in a big way. And the money needs to be returned.

 

[The Dude]

@the player - what stops you from picking up a telephone and calling the lawyer's office?

Or hiring your own damn lawyer and get your money?

 

[Pinababy69]

Concerning the receipt - this contains the guy's name, address, signature (?), and if I were to publish this, it would be all blanked out - so why publish it? There ain't nothing left to look at.

I know, I know....lol, I'm going to make that coffee right now. Jeez, I'll never live this one down.

Or hiring your own damn lawyer and get your money?

That is precisely what I would have done, if I were in this position, and this had dragged on this long. I was astute enough to mention that in my post, so I know I'm at least half awake.

So he has at least finally replied. A first step I guess, I hope.

I think I'll just sit back and watch for now, and see what unfolds.

 

[RobWin]

Just read a few minutes ago where Casino Clubs affiliate program has now been "Rogued"...

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[Simmo!]

Just read a few minutes ago where Casino Clubs affiliate program has now been "Rogued"...

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But worth noting for totally unrelated issues to this thread.

 

[Pinababy69]

But worth noting for totally unrelated issues to this thread.

True enough Simmo...but related in re: treat players unfairly, treat affiliates unfairly. No reason for either one to believe their treatment would be any better than the other.....or should be for that matter. If a company has questionable ethics and practices, it's going to extend to all facets of its business a la Grand Prive.

Anyway, don't want to derail, but thanks for the heads up on that Rob!!

 

[The Dude]

Just read a few minutes ago where Casino Clubs affiliate program has now been "Rogued"...

Bummer...

But worth noting for totally unrelated issues to this thread.

Agreed...

True enough Simmo...but related in re: treat players unfairly, treat affiliates unfairly. No reason for either one to believe their treatment would be any better than the other.....or should be for that matter. If a company has questionable ethics and practices, it's going to extend to all facets of its business a la Grand Prive.

Anyway, don't want to derail, but thanks for the heads up on that Rob!!

And again, agreed...but this will require another thread. This one is congested enough

 

[hzock2]

So who signed for the lawyer letter that was delivered to the player's address in August?

So why did CC then claim that the player did not provide a valid address?

@kmay: realplayer is not able to post here, because his forum account is (according to his statement) blocked...

 

[Rusty]

The more I think about this the more I begin to believe that both parties seem to have something to hide.
Both seem reluctant to pursue the matter with any vigour and yet the stakes for both are so high.
Very odd.
I too will keep a watching brief until more information comes to light.

 

[elscrabinda]

Just checked this thread to see if there was an update expecting it to have gone quiet and have read through 10 pages! CC HAVE stated categorically earlier on in the thread that they will not steal the money and that it will either be paid to the player or put back into the pot but they will almost certainly need chasing up on this. For this reason and others closing this thread is not a good idea.

Things that still concern me:

There seems to be lots of misunderstanding on what bots are, not least from the casino's end (if the translations etc are accurate). As others have stated, a bot can only speed up play and eliminate human error. It cannot do anything that a human with enough patience and skill can't do. If it can (all the nonsense about clairvoyancy) then the casino is lying about their RNG and this is a lot more terrifying than one player being screwed.

Moneybookers allowing a casino to dip in to a players account. Outrageous if it is as has been reported.

The confusion over the legal case- what are they suing him over, what crime has been committed? (regardless of breaching terms and conditions). Also what is the truth over contacting/not contacting lawyers, addresses/fake addresses etc? Its very difficult to ascertain who's telling the truth.

Finally, though they have pledged to return the money to the pool if it does not go to the player, when are they going to do it, and why do they not reassure us that they are not simply waiting until we forget before nicking it for themselves? Any talk of donating to charity or CC using it as bait for an unrelated promotion is (or should be) completely absurd.

 

[Pinababy69]

The more I think about this the more I begin to believe that both parties seem to have something to hide.
Both seem reluctant to pursue the matter with any vigour and yet the stakes for both are so high.
Very odd.
I too will keep a watching brief until more information comes to light.

That is EXACTLY how I feel Rusty. And am going to refrain from any more posts. I think that Bryan and Max have a good idea of what all our main concerns are, and Elscrabinda has synopsized fairly well in the post above mine as well. He has said that he's working on other stuff and will go back to CC with all of this...so for now, I'm willing to let him do his thing, and see what he can get out of them.

 

[kmay87]

So why did CC then claim that the player did not provide a valid address?

@kmay: realplayer is not able to post here, because his forum account is (according to his statement) blocked...

I understand that, but there are many other ways around it. He could email Max or Bryan for a start. Or, he could have just replied to thelawnet's post asking for a number of questions to be answered over on the German forum.

If he has any case at all, those questions imposed upon him would take merely seconds to answer. Yet we are still waiting.

 

[Jasminebed]

I've refrained from replying to this thread before now, but I have a few points to raise.

I am not a lawyer, but I did work a decade as a legal secretary. I think a lawyer's advice to the player would be to stay quiet on public forums at this point.

If CC has not brought legal action, but is merely threatening it, a lawyer will wait to see if they do...costs are most often awarded to a player defending a lawsuit than one initiating it. It is cheaper to launch a countersuit than a suit, so may be part of the reason CC has not launched any action, anticipating that the player will. Player denied knowledge of a lawsuit, not a THREAT of a lawsuit.

Most jurisdictions have a statute of limitations for filing actions...in Canada it is two years, and many cases are left to the last minute before papers are filed, hoping to reach a resolution prior to that, as well as assembling all the necessary information to be successful in your suit.

This is an area that requires expertise, and if you went to your family solicitor, he or she may need time to find a person licenced to practice law in the appropriate jurisdiction, and with expertise in this field.

Speculation on my part, but legal action is often threatened to intimidate people into paying or not demanding redress. An example from my personal life is following the death of my father, the agent for the funeral company threatened via a lawyer to recover costs for shipping my father's body home. This was covered by my dad's insurance, and they provided the lawyer a "contract", unsigned by me. I forwarded the insurance company's request for documentation to them, and they failed to provide it...not my fault, nor even documentation I had access to. The lawyer refused to persue it further, and the agent took me to small claims court. I defended, and was awarded court costs of $35, my cost to file a defence, and the matter was thrown out.

Whole matter smells however, but given CC's recent behaviour with regards to Heffernan and to another player in this thread (sorry, so long I couldn't find it), I don't regard it as a "done deal".

At the very least, the disputed monies should be paid into an escrow account.

 

[RobWin]

I've refrained from replying to this thread before now, but I have a few points to raise.

I am not a lawyer, but I did work a decade as a legal secretary. I think a lawyer's advice to the player would be to stay quiet on public forums at this point.

If CC has not brought legal action, but is merely threatening it, a lawyer will wait to see if they do...costs are most often awarded to a player defending a lawsuit than one initiating it. It is cheaper to launch a countersuit than a suit, so may be part of the reason CC has not launched any action, anticipating that the player will. Player denied knowledge of a lawsuit, not a THREAT of a lawsuit.

Most jurisdictions have a statute of limitations for filing actions...in Canada it is two years, and many cases are left to the last minute before papers are filed, hoping to reach a resolution prior to that, as well as assembling all the necessary information to be successful in your suit.

This is an area that requires expertise, and if you went to your family solicitor, he or she may need time to find a person licenced to practice law in the appropriate jurisdiction, and with expertise in this field.

Speculation on my part, but legal action is often threatened to intimidate people into paying or not demanding redress. An example from my personal life is following the death of my father, the agent for the funeral company threatened via a lawyer to recover costs for shipping my father's body home. This was covered by my dad's insurance, and they provided the lawyer a "contract", unsigned by me. I forwarded the insurance company's request for documentation to them, and they failed to provide it...not my fault, nor even documentation I had access to. The lawyer refused to persue it further, and the agent took me to small claims court. I defended, and was awarded court costs of $35, my cost to file a defence, and the matter was thrown out.

Whole matter smells however, but given CC's recent behaviour with regards to Heffernan and to another player in this thread (sorry, so long I couldn't find it), I don't regard it as a "done deal".

At the very least, the disputed monies should be paid into an escrow account.

I totally agree with you on that point Jasmine, and they should have placed the Jackpot funds that are in question into an escrow account way back when this matter first occurred. Maybe Bryan or Max one can follow up with Casino Club and actually see if this is the case and if so then CC should not have any issue with proving that the Jackpot funds in question were in fact placed into an escrow account as this would have been the legitimate thing to do with this amount of money that is in question here.

Now if CC has decided to hold these funds in their own interest bearing account, I can certainly see how this action would in fact concern all players.

 

[kmay87]

I totally agree with you on that point Jasmine, and they should have placed the Jackpot funds that are in question into an escrow account way back when this matter first occurred. Maybe Bryan or Max one can follow up with Casino Club and actually see if this is the case and if so then CC should not have any issue with proving that the Jackpot funds in question were in fact placed into an escrow account as this would have been the legitimate thing to do with this amount of money that is in question here.

Now if CC has decided to hold these funds in their own interest bearing account, I can certainly see how this action would in fact concern all players.

I completely agree with that.

And this is what's made it so confusing. If legal action is pending, or active, then these funds should be held by a third party - NOT the player and NOT the casino. But to our knowledge, the casino has it.......somewhere. Wherever it might be being stored, although interest rates are so poor that probably little has been made on it, Casino Club should return the amount plus interest. That can be a bit of an added bonus for whoever wins it next.

 

[Jufo]

Just read a few minutes ago where Casino Clubs affiliate program has now been "Rogued"...

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What's interesting is that they are rogued now when it affects affiliates themselves. Yet they were not rogued when Casino Club began not paying winning players. So much for the affiliates looking after their players...

I also heard that the player in question has been unable to participate in this thread because he has been banned from here. I think it puts things into a bit different perspective.