Bitstarz Removes 3.45 Btc Balance According to Breaking Bonus Terms

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
Here is the story:

I am a big player of bitstarz. I deposit big, bet bigger. Last week i lost 2.54 btc. They credited my account with 0.25 btc loyalty/cashback bonus.

Then i started to play. I played one slot with 0.024 btc. I hit about 2btc win. Then i lowered my bet to 0.012 btc. I get bored, then i played with 0.03 and 0.06 btc. Most of my winnings come from my first 0.024 btc bets.

Then i finished bonus rollover. Requested a 3.45 btc withdraw. They cancelled it and they removed my entire balance. Their claim is " You broke our rules by betting over 0.025 btc ".

I respect their rules. I did not know that rule. However while most of my winnings comes from 0.024 btc bet, they remove whole balance.

I feel scammed. They could remove my bets over 25mbtc (both wins and loses comes from that bets) then remains my balance with comes from 0.025 below bets. Then i could go on to rollever bonus amount.

My advise is that do not play on bitstarz. They can easily remove your balance for any reason as i lose 3.45 btc.
 

BitStarz

Accredited Casino BitStarz Representative
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Location
Malta
Hi there,

First of all I'm sorry we had to do this but I believe many players here on this forum are well aware of the
max betting with bonuses and stay below the stated limit in the casino's terms and conditions. It's quite
common practice on online casinos.

This was also a free bonus we threw your way and gave you the loyalty bonus back to give you another
shot at winnings, which we believed was a decent gesture in all this. We as a casino has obligations
but as the same time you have an obligation as a player to follow the rules, and we are sorry they
were not followed this time which resulted in this confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
Casino should not have the right remove whole balance while player winnings comes from 0.024 btc (which is acceptable according to casino rules)
 

BitStarz

Accredited Casino BitStarz Representative
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Location
Malta
Hi again,

You broke the rules with a 0.6 BTC bet, and you had over 50 bets that was over the limit I'm afraid.

If this was a one-off thing, we'd most likely had looked the other way, but the violation was quite severe
and we had to result in a confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
Hi again,

You broke the rules with a 0.6 BTC bet, and you had over 50 bets that was over the limit I'm afraid.

If this was a one-off thing, we'd most likely had looked the other way, but the violation was quite severe
and we had to result in a confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike

Do not tell lie about betting size. I did not bet 0.6 btc, i bet with 0.06 btc. And most of that bets i lost. My winnings comes from below 0.025 btc bets.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi there,

My apologies, 0.06 BTC was the wager, but still twice over the limit mate.

Kind Regards,

Mike

Something wrong with your maths, mate.


Should the Casino become aware of any user who has accepted the bonus or a promotion with sole purpose of creating a positive expected value on bonus return by using known practices aimed at securing a cash out of said bonus or at any way try to take advantage of bonuses received by BitStarz, then BitStarz will enforce immediate confiscation of winnings and closure of the account with the right to withhold any further withdrawals. An example of advantage play would be delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.

Bonus was 0.25 30% of that is 0.075. 50 bets of 0.06 would not therefore be in breach of the terms.

From where does the 0.025 limit arise, because I have spent the past 10 minutes going through the site, but can only find the 30% rule, which is reasonably clear for an experienced player who would expect such a restriction and go looking for it.

However, if the limit is 0.025, then this is a 10% of bonus rule, and nowhere can I find this mentioned, and if anything the presence of a 30% rule would mean players would not think to carry on looking.

If the 10% rule exists, it is certainly not "clear", else I would have found it.

It is also rather odd that you pay larger wins by instalments, this should not be necessary with the Bitcoin virtual currency, nor should it be necessary to bar UK and US players from Bitcoin as this is "virtual money", not fiat currency, which is the main point of Bitcoin.

Now, if the bets were 0.6 after all, then they would break the terms.

So, who is crap at maths here?
 

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
So while you accept your rule stated on terms/conditions page, you have 2 different rule conflicting in both side. According to one rule as i pasted above i am legitimate. That is your fault to publish 2 conflicting terms and conditions. Favorably to law, if there are conflict between 2 terms, term should be apply which is bring benefit for customer, not against.

TLDR: Dear casinomeister users; they have 2 different terms and conditions as we stated above. What should be done here?
 

BitStarz

Accredited Casino BitStarz Representative
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Location
Malta
Hi mate,

We've already put all the facts there, you broke one of the most common rules while playing with the
bonus and unfortunately had to suffer the consequences.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
the land of snow and maple syrup
So while you accept your rule stated on terms/conditions page, you have 2 different rule conflicting in both side. According to one rule as i pasted above i am legitimate. That is your fault to publish 2 conflicting terms and conditions. Favorably to law, if there are conflict between 2 terms, term should be apply which is bring benefit for customer, not against.

TLDR: Dear casinomeister users; they have 2 different terms and conditions as we stated above. What should be done here?

To be honest, MOST casinos have a max bet rule AND advantage play terms. Maybe they could have lumped them together for clarity, but more appears (to me) they're covering their bases.
 

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
According to their terms and conditions, i am right and they are confiscate my winnings.

f7roHMc.jpg

They have 2 different and conflicting terms and conditions. Still they have not made any announcement about this 2 different terms and conditions. According to 1 that i attached here , i am fully right. However this casino continue to confiscate my winnings.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
@ shecansayyes : I have to ask if you have you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. The FAQ is necessary reading for all those who wish to use the PAB service. The FAQ tells you the scope of our service, what you can expect from us and -- also very important -- what we expect from you. If you don't understand and/or cooperate with the PAB process then your PAB will very likely fail. So please do read the FAQ asap.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
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Location
Bexhill on sea, England
I don't think it makes any difference - I can't see how a PAB can be successful.

The General "Advantage play rules" are completely separate from the bonus terms and IMO the player is clutching at straws trying to use this as an excuse for not reading and/or complying with the bonus rules.

I don't like seeing payers lose out like this - but in this case the casino is right.

KK
 

shecansayyes

Newbie member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
@KasinoKing How can we see that these two terms are different? IMO general terms include specific bonus terms. Bonus terms should not be against to general terms.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
@KasinoKing How can we see that these two terms are different? IMO general terms include specific bonus terms. Bonus terms should not be against to general terms.

PAB shit-canned since you can't be bothered to read the FAQ and abide by Max's instruction posted above.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
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Location
Bexhill on sea, England
@KasinoKing How can we see that these two terms are different? IMO general terms include specific bonus terms. Bonus terms should not be against to general terms.
Regardless of what you THINK should be right, if you take ANY bonus at ANY casino, the terms relating to THAT SPECIFIC bonus apply.
The terms of the bonus can be "tighter" than the general terms - that's why players should ALWAYS read the bonus terms and make sure they stick to them.

We've all made mistakes (yes, even me!) and we have to learn from them.
I am genuinely sorry you made a mistake, but you have to accept it is your fault, and not blame the casino.

KK
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I don't think it makes any difference - I can't see how a PAB can be successful.

The General "Advantage play rules" are completely separate from the bonus terms and IMO the player is clutching at straws trying to use this as an excuse for not reading and/or complying with the bonus rules.

I don't like seeing payers lose out like this - but in this case the casino is right.

KK


This is specifically a bonus related rule, and the other one the rep quoted I couldn't find when looking for the terms. This means it fails to meet the criteria of "clarity" for players. If the 10% rule is always the one that applies, then the 30% rule is completely superfluous, and shouldn't even be on the site at all, as the 10% rule is the one that matters. Having a 30% rule available to be found, and easier to find than the 10% one, only serves to mislead players into believing the max bet rule is 30%, which is in line with "industry standards".

Under UK consumer law (based on an EU directive), where two different terms are in conflict, the one that is deemed to apply is the one most advantageous to the consumer, not the company. Shame the OP isn't a UK player and can benefit from this, however the consumer laws in their own country may contain a similar provision. It may also be worth checking whether the consumer laws in their licencing jurisdiction also contain such a provision.

I recall a while ago that casino rewards had something like this, conflicting sets of terms on different parts of the website, and the player made a formal complaint. They were licenced by Kahnawake, who told CR that they had to pay half as they had contributed to the problem by not having clear and easy to navigate terms.

The PAB is "canned" because the OP chose to continue pursuit of the complaint on the forum, rather than because it has "no chance of success".


To be fair to players, Bitstarz should ensure that all the terms throughout the site are consistent, and if the max bet rule is 10%, then clearly "advantage play" begins when bets are over 10%, rather than 30%, of the bonus. If anything, it could be deemed "advantage play" where a player reads the terms, and bets 9.99% of the bonus nearly all the time in order to stay just within the set limit, rather than where they bet at a variety of levels and on a number of different games.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... The PAB is "canned" because the OP chose to continue pursuit of the complaint on the forum...

Nooo, the PAB was tossed out because the OP couldn't be bothered to read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ even after specifically being asked to do so here in the thread. If someone can't be bothered to read the rules and guidelines for the PAB process I'll be dipped if we should waste our time on trying to help them.

Besides, this particular PAB would have been disqualified because of the "One Free Shot" anyway but that's explained in the FAQ. :D
 

bowlingbob

Full Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Location
usa
Unfortunately bitstarz seems to have a higher rate than normal of players unaware of the bonus max bet rule. I've read quite a few instances of large balances confiscated due to this term at the bitcoin forum. In most of the complaints the argument seems to be that the bonus or max bet terms are not easily found or published. It seems judging on the reps comments they take great pride in being able to apply this term to deny winnings and zero balances out. However, I've played at bitstarz in the past and had no complaints as the payouts were fast but I never use a bonus. This is one of the few places I won't use a bonus at because of the max bet term. The rep states this is common for casinos to do but I'd disagree as I know of several casinos where I am able to use a bonus and freely make any bet I'd like. Feel sorry for the players I read about this happening but ultimately any player taking a bonus should open up a live chat if they are unsure and ask questions. After a few instances myself in the past with dodgy terms I always make sure to make myself aware of any rules in place.

Now the solution could be that bitstarz makes it MUCH easier for players taking bonuses to find these terms or have them shown directly on the bonus page. As of now I don't believe they do its up to the player to scour the pages of bitstarz to find terms relating to the bonus.
 

bowlingbob

Full Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Location
usa
I will add one disturbing term I found in the bonus terms once I managed to navigate a few pages of the site to get to is this :

Players who are solely making deposits when there is a bonus available will risk of having their winnings from the bonus confiscated and being left with the initial deposited amount of the bonus in question. Players who make 5 deposits in a row (excluding welcome package) to the casino and trigger a bonus on all of those will risk of losing their winnings from the bonus.

At least a single genuine deposit without bonus release has to be made prior to reaching 5 bonus releasing deposits in a row. The amount of the deposit has to be at least the average amount of the previous deposits made that triggered a bonus.

Decision if to confiscate funds will be made by the BitStarz Management and the decision made will be final.



As far as I'm aware from previously playing on Bitstarz is that all of their bonuses that they offer are automatic meaning that if you don't want a bonus on that deposit you have to specifically checkmark you do not want to receive bonuses. Weekly if not more I'm always receiving an email to go ahead and click on the link to take me to their deposit page and enjoy a 50% bonus. An unaware gambler that hasn't read this term may deposit weekly using the 50% and lose on the previous four and on the fifth deposit manage to enjoy some luck go ahead and make a nice cashout only for Bitstarz to deny their winnings based on term 2a of the general bonus terms and conditions. Wow. Given this term I do not think as highly of bitstarz as I previously had and think I will just unsubscribe from further promo emails from this company.
 

petro

Dormant account, per user request
PABaccred
PABnoaccred2
Joined
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Narnia
Under UK consumer law (based on an EU directive), where two different terms are in conflict, the one that is deemed to apply is the one most advantageous to the consumer, not the company.
Sounds like an excellent idea! If Casinomeister were to adopt that, it would provide motivation for casinos to get rid of ambiguous terms.


As a footnote; Bitstarz has a "spirit of the bonus" term. Under "Advantage Play" they provide examples but they don't offer anything concrete, as if to say advantage play is whatever they say it is. But, it's irrelevant because they are not accredited.
 

TNY

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Location
Perth WA
Bitstarz have always been helpful to me. I don't get into this bonus nonsense too much cause I'd rather low ball and build up than try and understand bonus terms.
A couple of months back I hit a fairly decent run and before cashing out I had to send docs. CS were very abliging in flushing the amount until I sent docs, which were processed and confirmed as soon as I sent them. got paid to neteller straight away.
Really haven't had any troubles with these guys apart from being unable to get hold of CS or 'mike' every now and again. I imagine mike is either a collective live chat person or a very dedicated man cause I've never heard of anyone else on there.
Anyway, might be pointless to the rest of this post but I think their a good casino, bonus terms omitted.
Cheers Troy
 
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