Bitstarz Removes 3.45 Btc Balance According to Breaking Bonus Terms

Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
turkey
Here is the story:

I am a big player of bitstarz. I deposit big, bet bigger. Last week i lost 2.54 btc. They credited my account with 0.25 btc loyalty/cashback bonus.

Then i started to play. I played one slot with 0.024 btc. I hit about 2btc win. Then i lowered my bet to 0.012 btc. I get bored, then i played with 0.03 and 0.06 btc. Most of my winnings come from my first 0.024 btc bets.

Then i finished bonus rollover. Requested a 3.45 btc withdraw. They cancelled it and they removed my entire balance. Their claim is " You broke our rules by betting over 0.025 btc ".

I respect their rules. I did not know that rule. However while most of my winnings comes from 0.024 btc bet, they remove whole balance.

I feel scammed. They could remove my bets over 25mbtc (both wins and loses comes from that bets) then remains my balance with comes from 0.025 below bets. Then i could go on to rollever bonus amount.

My advise is that do not play on bitstarz. They can easily remove your balance for any reason as i lose 3.45 btc.
 
Hi there,

First of all I'm sorry we had to do this but I believe many players here on this forum are well aware of the
max betting with bonuses and stay below the stated limit in the casino's terms and conditions. It's quite
common practice on online casinos.

This was also a free bonus we threw your way and gave you the loyalty bonus back to give you another
shot at winnings, which we believed was a decent gesture in all this. We as a casino has obligations
but as the same time you have an obligation as a player to follow the rules, and we are sorry they
were not followed this time which resulted in this confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 
Hi again,

You broke the rules with a 0.6 BTC bet, and you had over 50 bets that was over the limit I'm afraid.

If this was a one-off thing, we'd most likely had looked the other way, but the violation was quite severe
and we had to result in a confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 
Hi again,

You broke the rules with a 0.6 BTC bet, and you had over 50 bets that was over the limit I'm afraid.

If this was a one-off thing, we'd most likely had looked the other way, but the violation was quite severe
and we had to result in a confiscation.

Kind Regards,

Mike

Do not tell lie about betting size. I did not bet 0.6 btc, i bet with 0.06 btc. And most of that bets i lost. My winnings comes from below 0.025 btc bets.
 
Do not tell lie about betting size. I did not bet 0.6 btc, i bet with 0.06 btc. And most of that bets i lost. My winnings comes from below 0.025 btc bets.

Hi there,

My apologies, 0.06 BTC was the wager, but still twice over the limit mate.

Kind Regards,

Mike
 
Hi there,

My apologies, 0.06 BTC was the wager, but still twice over the limit mate.

Kind Regards,

Mike

Something wrong with your maths, mate.


Should the Casino become aware of any user who has accepted the bonus or a promotion with sole purpose of creating a positive expected value on bonus return by using known practices aimed at securing a cash out of said bonus or at any way try to take advantage of bonuses received by BitStarz, then BitStarz will enforce immediate confiscation of winnings and closure of the account with the right to withhold any further withdrawals. An example of advantage play would be delaying any game round in any game, including free spins features and bonus features, to a later time when you have no more wagering requirement and/or performing new deposit(s) while having free spins features or bonus features still available in a game. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.

Bonus was 0.25 30% of that is 0.075. 50 bets of 0.06 would not therefore be in breach of the terms.

From where does the 0.025 limit arise, because I have spent the past 10 minutes going through the site, but can only find the 30% rule, which is reasonably clear for an experienced player who would expect such a restriction and go looking for it.

However, if the limit is 0.025, then this is a 10% of bonus rule, and nowhere can I find this mentioned, and if anything the presence of a 30% rule would mean players would not think to carry on looking.

If the 10% rule exists, it is certainly not "clear", else I would have found it.

It is also rather odd that you pay larger wins by instalments, this should not be necessary with the Bitcoin virtual currency, nor should it be necessary to bar UK and US players from Bitcoin as this is "virtual money", not fiat currency, which is the main point of Bitcoin.

Now, if the bets were 0.6 after all, then they would break the terms.

So, who is crap at maths here?
 
Thank you @vinylweatherman

They are breaking their own terms and conditions.

Here

f7roHMc.webp
 
So while you accept your rule stated on terms/conditions page, you have 2 different rule conflicting in both side. According to one rule as i pasted above i am legitimate. That is your fault to publish 2 conflicting terms and conditions. Favorably to law, if there are conflict between 2 terms, term should be apply which is bring benefit for customer, not against.

TLDR: Dear casinomeister users; they have 2 different terms and conditions as we stated above. What should be done here?
 
So while you accept your rule stated on terms/conditions page, you have 2 different rule conflicting in both side. According to one rule as i pasted above i am legitimate. That is your fault to publish 2 conflicting terms and conditions. Favorably to law, if there are conflict between 2 terms, term should be apply which is bring benefit for customer, not against.

TLDR: Dear casinomeister users; they have 2 different terms and conditions as we stated above. What should be done here?

To be honest, MOST casinos have a max bet rule AND advantage play terms. Maybe they could have lumped them together for clarity, but more appears (to me) they're covering their bases.
 
According to their terms and conditions, i am right and they are confiscate my winnings.

f7roHMc.webp

They have 2 different and conflicting terms and conditions. Still they have not made any announcement about this 2 different terms and conditions. According to 1 that i attached here , i am fully right. However this casino continue to confiscate my winnings.
 
@ shecansayyes : I have to ask if you have you read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. The FAQ is necessary reading for all those who wish to use the PAB service. The FAQ tells you the scope of our service, what you can expect from us and -- also very important -- what we expect from you. If you don't understand and/or cooperate with the PAB process then your PAB will very likely fail. So please do read the FAQ asap.
 
I don't think it makes any difference - I can't see how a PAB can be successful.

The General "Advantage play rules" are completely separate from the bonus terms and IMO the player is clutching at straws trying to use this as an excuse for not reading and/or complying with the bonus rules.

I don't like seeing payers lose out like this - but in this case the casino is right.

KK
 
@KasinoKing How can we see that these two terms are different? IMO general terms include specific bonus terms. Bonus terms should not be against to general terms.

PAB shit-canned since you can't be bothered to read the FAQ and abide by Max's instruction posted above.
 
One of the first things I got from time when I started playing - I need to read rules. It's simple, and never take more than 5 minutes.

Can't see what casino did wrong, breach of terms = punishment. It is easy logic.
 
@KasinoKing How can we see that these two terms are different? IMO general terms include specific bonus terms. Bonus terms should not be against to general terms.
Regardless of what you THINK should be right, if you take ANY bonus at ANY casino, the terms relating to THAT SPECIFIC bonus apply.
The terms of the bonus can be "tighter" than the general terms - that's why players should ALWAYS read the bonus terms and make sure they stick to them.

We've all made mistakes (yes, even me!) and we have to learn from them.
I am genuinely sorry you made a mistake, but you have to accept it is your fault, and not blame the casino.

KK
 
I don't think it makes any difference - I can't see how a PAB can be successful.

The General "Advantage play rules" are completely separate from the bonus terms and IMO the player is clutching at straws trying to use this as an excuse for not reading and/or complying with the bonus rules.

I don't like seeing payers lose out like this - but in this case the casino is right.

KK


This is specifically a bonus related rule, and the other one the rep quoted I couldn't find when looking for the terms. This means it fails to meet the criteria of "clarity" for players. If the 10% rule is always the one that applies, then the 30% rule is completely superfluous, and shouldn't even be on the site at all, as the 10% rule is the one that matters. Having a 30% rule available to be found, and easier to find than the 10% one, only serves to mislead players into believing the max bet rule is 30%, which is in line with "industry standards".

Under UK consumer law (based on an EU directive), where two different terms are in conflict, the one that is deemed to apply is the one most advantageous to the consumer, not the company. Shame the OP isn't a UK player and can benefit from this, however the consumer laws in their own country may contain a similar provision. It may also be worth checking whether the consumer laws in their licencing jurisdiction also contain such a provision.

I recall a while ago that casino rewards had something like this, conflicting sets of terms on different parts of the website, and the player made a formal complaint. They were licenced by Kahnawake, who told CR that they had to pay half as they had contributed to the problem by not having clear and easy to navigate terms.

The PAB is "canned" because the OP chose to continue pursuit of the complaint on the forum, rather than because it has "no chance of success".


To be fair to players, Bitstarz should ensure that all the terms throughout the site are consistent, and if the max bet rule is 10%, then clearly "advantage play" begins when bets are over 10%, rather than 30%, of the bonus. If anything, it could be deemed "advantage play" where a player reads the terms, and bets 9.99% of the bonus nearly all the time in order to stay just within the set limit, rather than where they bet at a variety of levels and on a number of different games.
 
... The PAB is "canned" because the OP chose to continue pursuit of the complaint on the forum...

Nooo, the PAB was tossed out because the OP couldn't be bothered to read the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ even after specifically being asked to do so here in the thread. If someone can't be bothered to read the rules and guidelines for the PAB process I'll be dipped if we should waste our time on trying to help them.

Besides, this particular PAB would have been disqualified because of the "One Free Shot" anyway but that's explained in the FAQ. :D
 
Unfortunately bitstarz seems to have a higher rate than normal of players unaware of the bonus max bet rule. I've read quite a few instances of large balances confiscated due to this term at the bitcoin forum. In most of the complaints the argument seems to be that the bonus or max bet terms are not easily found or published. It seems judging on the reps comments they take great pride in being able to apply this term to deny winnings and zero balances out. However, I've played at bitstarz in the past and had no complaints as the payouts were fast but I never use a bonus. This is one of the few places I won't use a bonus at because of the max bet term. The rep states this is common for casinos to do but I'd disagree as I know of several casinos where I am able to use a bonus and freely make any bet I'd like. Feel sorry for the players I read about this happening but ultimately any player taking a bonus should open up a live chat if they are unsure and ask questions. After a few instances myself in the past with dodgy terms I always make sure to make myself aware of any rules in place.

Now the solution could be that bitstarz makes it MUCH easier for players taking bonuses to find these terms or have them shown directly on the bonus page. As of now I don't believe they do its up to the player to scour the pages of bitstarz to find terms relating to the bonus.
 
I will add one disturbing term I found in the bonus terms once I managed to navigate a few pages of the site to get to is this :

Players who are solely making deposits when there is a bonus available will risk of having their winnings from the bonus confiscated and being left with the initial deposited amount of the bonus in question. Players who make 5 deposits in a row (excluding welcome package) to the casino and trigger a bonus on all of those will risk of losing their winnings from the bonus.

At least a single genuine deposit without bonus release has to be made prior to reaching 5 bonus releasing deposits in a row. The amount of the deposit has to be at least the average amount of the previous deposits made that triggered a bonus.

Decision if to confiscate funds will be made by the BitStarz Management and the decision made will be final.



As far as I'm aware from previously playing on Bitstarz is that all of their bonuses that they offer are automatic meaning that if you don't want a bonus on that deposit you have to specifically checkmark you do not want to receive bonuses. Weekly if not more I'm always receiving an email to go ahead and click on the link to take me to their deposit page and enjoy a 50% bonus. An unaware gambler that hasn't read this term may deposit weekly using the 50% and lose on the previous four and on the fifth deposit manage to enjoy some luck go ahead and make a nice cashout only for Bitstarz to deny their winnings based on term 2a of the general bonus terms and conditions. Wow. Given this term I do not think as highly of bitstarz as I previously had and think I will just unsubscribe from further promo emails from this company.
 
Under UK consumer law (based on an EU directive), where two different terms are in conflict, the one that is deemed to apply is the one most advantageous to the consumer, not the company.
Sounds like an excellent idea! If Casinomeister were to adopt that, it would provide motivation for casinos to get rid of ambiguous terms.


As a footnote; Bitstarz has a "spirit of the bonus" term. Under "Advantage Play" they provide examples but they don't offer anything concrete, as if to say advantage play is whatever they say it is. But, it's irrelevant because they are not accredited.
 
Bitstarz have always been helpful to me. I don't get into this bonus nonsense too much cause I'd rather low ball and build up than try and understand bonus terms.
A couple of months back I hit a fairly decent run and before cashing out I had to send docs. CS were very abliging in flushing the amount until I sent docs, which were processed and confirmed as soon as I sent them. got paid to neteller straight away.
Really haven't had any troubles with these guys apart from being unable to get hold of CS or 'mike' every now and again. I imagine mike is either a collective live chat person or a very dedicated man cause I've never heard of anyone else on there.
Anyway, might be pointless to the rest of this post but I think their a good casino, bonus terms omitted.
Cheers Troy
 
You tend to find that there is a difference in terms as usually 30% of bonus limited stake applies to low multiple return games such as roulette or BJ etc. whereas slots have a 5-unit limit or 6.25 due to their potential to pay several thousand x stake from one game.
 
I will add one disturbing term I found in the bonus terms once I managed to navigate a few pages of the site to get to is this :

Players who are solely making deposits when there is a bonus available will risk of having their winnings from the bonus confiscated and being left with the initial deposited amount of the bonus in question. Players who make 5 deposits in a row (excluding welcome package) to the casino and trigger a bonus on all of those will risk of losing their winnings from the bonus.

At least a single genuine deposit without bonus release has to be made prior to reaching 5 bonus releasing deposits in a row. The amount of the deposit has to be at least the average amount of the previous deposits made that triggered a bonus.

Decision if to confiscate funds will be made by the BitStarz Management and the decision made will be final.



As far as I'm aware from previously playing on Bitstarz is that all of their bonuses that they offer are automatic meaning that if you don't want a bonus on that deposit you have to specifically checkmark you do not want to receive bonuses. Weekly if not more I'm always receiving an email to go ahead and click on the link to take me to their deposit page and enjoy a 50% bonus. An unaware gambler that hasn't read this term may deposit weekly using the 50% and lose on the previous four and on the fifth deposit manage to enjoy some luck go ahead and make a nice cashout only for Bitstarz to deny their winnings based on term 2a of the general bonus terms and conditions. Wow. Given this term I do not think as highly of bitstarz as I previously had and think I will just unsubscribe from further promo emails from this company.

This is even nastier as it uses social engineering to entrap players. Not only do they have 2 differing sets of terms, one much harder to find than the other, they have an automatic system that puts players into the position of involuntarily violating the harder to find set of terms, and even where the player knows the rules, the automatic system still drops them into the trap and makes them climb out before they can just get on and play.

If a 30% rule NEVER applies, and it's always 10%, why is a 30% rule even mentioned at all, let alone in the wrong place.

The whole thing is a deception aimed at players who take bonuses, and it's no real mitigation that players who don't take bonuses end up getting very good treatment. A new player is meant to find the terms I found, but not the far stricter terms that actually apply. These they probably find out about after the fact, when their winnings get confiscated because they broke an unpublished term, even though they had found, read, and understood what is already a dozen pages of terms and conditions.

This isn't something that will affect a UK player who has read these terms as one is that players from the US and the UK cannot play for real money nor Bitcoin. It's rather odd because it's not illegal for a UK citizen to play at Bitstarz, but it is illegal for Bitstarz to offer it's service to the UK, however it's just as illegal for Bitstarz to offer it's services in many other countries, but they do nevertheless in the knowledge that it's going to be almost impossible for these countries to do anything about it, especially with the Bitcoin side.

They should just be honest and promote themselves as a no-bonus casino, rather than use bonuses as a lure, but have to set all these traps because otherwise the offers would cost them too much money. Being a Bitcoin casino in itself is a new(ish) concept, and SHOULD bring in many players who cannot play in regular casinos due to their nannying governments, unfortunately they seem to have embraced Bitcoin, yet voluntarily placed themselves into the regulatory straight jacket that applies to fiat currency casinos. If they embraced the full spirit in which the Bitcoin community operate, they would throw away all the artificial constraints down to national borders, and accept ALL players who had a valid Bitcoin account. After all, the very nature of Bitcoin prevents things like card fraud due to chargebacks, because once Bitcoin is transferred, there is no way to recall it, and neither can a third party wade in and confiscate the transaction or the float, such as the FBI or DoJ. The Bitcoin casino would only have to obey the laws of it's host country, and there would be nothing the US, or the UK for that matter, could do about it so long as all transactions were in Bitcoin, and the casino didn't try paying players with fiat currency via the regular banking systems.

Bitstarz should alter it's terms so that they are much clearer, and also redesign it's systems such that players are steered into compliance, and have to work hard to get things like a 6th consecutive bonus. Players may complain that the bonus they had expected on their 6th deposit didn't turn up, but this is better than having to confiscate the win after the fact. CS could simply tell the player that the system didn't credit the bonus because they had already had 5 in a row, and that if they were to deposit again, the bonus they were expecting would be credited, along with a maximum of 4 more on the trot until once again the system would hold back due to the 5 in a row rule.

I don't find it at all common for casinos to have different max bets for different games, what is common is for slots to count 100%, but non slots to count far less, even 0%. The max bet is set site wide, but varies considerably from one casino to another. Some are indeed as low as 10%, and a few even lower, but it's 10% across the board, not 10% in one set of terms and 30% in another.
 
Sounds like an excellent idea! If Casinomeister were to adopt that, it would provide motivation for casinos to get rid of ambiguous terms.


As a footnote; Bitstarz has a "spirit of the bonus" term. Under "Advantage Play" they provide examples but they don't offer anything concrete, as if to say advantage play is whatever they say it is. But, it's irrelevant because they are not accredited.

CM already applies something similar, and does not recognise "spirit of the bonus" as a valid reason for confiscating anything. However, CM has no way of enforcing this if a casino decides to ignore this and apply "spirit of the bonus", other than put some pressure on the casino, as he did when Betfair tried a mass confiscation of it's "Happy hour" winners, but Betfair just shrugged it off and carried on.

Players are largely at the mercy of the licencing jurisdiction, as the UK is somewhat unique in being a licencing jurisdiction that allows it's own citizens to play at the casinos it licenses. The UK system also means that UK players can use UK law in any dispute they have, rather than having to hire a lawyer in some offshore jurisdiction that may well have little in the way of consumer protection law that can be used to fight the casino's decision.

Bitstarz actually started this mess by issuing a free chip in the first place. If they didn't like how the OP played, they shouldn't have offered the free chip, and none of this would have happened. This does lead to a thought that they treat losing players differently to winners, and that they are happy to overlook bets of 20% or 25% of bonus when a player is losing and depositing again and again, but quick to jump on a harsher interpretation of the rules when a player's luck changes and they start winning. Surely a long standing player would have been caught out before by such a large discrepancy between a 30% and a 10% max bet, and may have made the mistake of relying on the 30% term before, and thus would have violated this rule far more often than the 50 bets mentioned.
 
Hi again

First of all, i feel really upset about shit-canned PAB. I know that's my fault. I acted as impatient while i put a PAB i opened a discussion topic. Even I've read FAQ, i didn't understand fully, as English is not my main language while you can see on my posts. After Max suggested that i should read again FAQ, i realize that i shouldn't open a topic while i submitted a PAB. I tried to find a "remove topic" button. However that was impossible or i couldn't find. At that moment i posted a new reply on this topic, and my PAB went to shit-canned. I know this is my fault but i have nowhere to go on this issue. I live in Turkey and noone will take care with my topic. I feel unjustified on this topic. Even i respect your decision, i am ready to do anything to have my PAB processed again; if anything else is possible.

Apart from PAB, this is a "loyalty bonus". This casino gave me this bonus for i lost the 2.54 btc amount. A highroller can be said for me. Neither I know that rule at the moment, nor casino told or send me the terms. Moreover, i won most of my chips with under 25 mbtc bet. Then support representative Mike, canceled my withdrawal immediatly regarding bonus terms. While i checked bonus terms, as you can see, they have 2 different bonus rule on their site. According to one rule, i am fully right because i didn't bet over %30 of the bonus amount.

I do not know what to do. I feel alone in this problem while gambling is banned in Turkey. I have nowhere to go to solve or to get help on this issue. Then my PAB is also shit-canned. Casino removed my balance. Casino manager - Nick - has not made a announcement on this subject. Only Mike posted while he was the person that remove my balance.

If i need to do anything else to get my PAB canned, i am ready.
 
... i realize that i shouldn't open a topic while i submitted a PAB. I tried to find a "remove topic" button. ...

That's not what the PAB says. What it does say is:
We reserve the right to discard any PAB that where that same issue has been posted to the boards. ... In the case where the material was posted after the PAB was filed there is a very high probability that we will suspend or discard the PAB at that point.

At that is precisely the problem: I asked you to read and respect the FAQ __after__ you had originally posted and you said (in PM) "haven't read your FAQ" and continued posting. :axeman:

We didn't write the PAB rules because we had nothing better to do. They're there because PABs cost us time and money to do and as such we are perfectly entitled to spell out the conditions under which we will offer, and continue to offer, that service. You ignored our guidance to read and respect the FAQ -- both in the pre-amble to actually posting your PAB and here in the thread -- and as such we withdraw our offer to assist you.

And "it's not my language" is no excuse: aside from the fact that you've already admitted you didn't read the FAQ -- it doesn't matter what language it's written in if you don't bother to look at it -- we make it perfectly clear that if you can't read and understand the FAQ that you should get an English speaker to assist you AND that if you need help finding someone to assist you we can probably help with that too.

Moaning about this after the fact is, again, totally missing the point: our preconditions for the PAB service are clear and readily available and you couldn't be bothered. So be it, but don't expect us to feel bad for you now that you've finally realized that it probably would have been wise to have followed those basic instructions from the beginning.
 
There are several reasons why we can't deal with your PAB.

Besides ignoring our instructions that during the PAB process you were to refrain from posting, this was also your second PAB and we have strict rules on PABs. One free shot which means we will accept PABs for any casino, but if you have another formal complaint - it must be against a casino listed in our accredited section. Bitstarz is not an accredited casino.

Since this was your second PAB, not knowing the PAB rules is not an excuse.

Besides, your issue would not succeed in your favor. We have dealt with these same sorts of bonus claims where there are two sets of terms and conditions: one general set of terms and conditions, and then there are the bonus rules. When you took the bonus, you agreed to those bonus terms thus your complaint is not valid. Many of the more informed members have mentioned this in your thread.

My suggestion to you is to not play with bonuses if your English is not that good. This way you won't run into these sorts of problems in the future. Bonuses are not obligatory, and you will find that playing without a bonus will be more enjoyable.

And if online gambling is illegal in Turkey, I would find something else to do with your time since you will only run into problems like this in the future.
 

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