Roguish Tradition Casino and likely all Rival casinos are Rogue. All Evidence shown here.

[tradition]

I apologize for this thread. I cannot read all posts cause it's very too long and my english doesn't allow me to understand all subtilities...

Since the beginning, Tradition casino has the possibility to change :

- bets limits for slots
- payout for blackjack

Blackjack was setuped on 3:2 until 20 th february and allowed double after splits, probably as all other Rival. We recruited new employee and made a training with him. During this training, all parts from the Casino controller are shown and explained.

It appears that during this training, payout for blackjack has been modified for show parameters and double possibilities but, unfortunately, this new parameter has been saved!

I understand that complaining player was really surprise because, of course, felt was still continuying to show 3:2.

It also explains why Rival support was fully confused with this request, considering that none Rival casinos have such settings in BJ... So, i can say that this complaint alerted us in order to understand that our blackjack games didn't work properly and that's why we refunded the player immediately when we found out the problem and understood that parameters have been changed.

Rival setuped old parameters permitting double after splits + 3:2 payout. After this, Rival removed us this acces allowing us to access to blackjack parameters.

I think that if Tradition had the possibility to access to BJ config it's because we were the first one to launch free play bonuses with RIVAL and, as you already know, bets limits are modified during these sessions, so i imagine that Rival thought that we would need to change too bets limits or double possibilities regarding this huge freeplay bonus.... It explains why other Rival casinos never acccess to these settings.

Regarding what an operator can change now in the software : bets limits per games

Regarding what will be done to ensure that a paytable/payout cannot be changed in such a manner that it changes the odds of the game : it's an excellent point. In my case, Rival removed me this access. I think that never this situation would have appear if we didn't have access to this BJ parameters. In each casino, there is a lot of employees and many trainings on controller, so it's a risk, even if there is an accredited member close to the new employee : error can be easily done :-(

Once again, i apologize for what happened :-(

 

[chuchu59]

Roanan,

Though I really want her to give a response, I am sure that she wont as no one will believe her since the casino's credibility has gone down the drain. This will be compunded by her lack of ability to write in plain simple English.

I recall her saying in an earlier thread that as the owner of Tradition she was losing money so she decided to cut many bonuses and bonus-ban some players. What she didnt say was she altered the payouts for BJ as well. So just how much did the casino gain from paying out evens on BJs. It's anyone's guess.

Edit: Oops! She just posted. Talking about coincidences.

 

[Pinababy69]

I had the exact same problem at Tradition casino the 22. of last month.Of course I realize now I should have posted here back then.
They claimed "we have made some updates to ensure that this does not occur again". Obviously they didn't.

Freddy

Hiya Pina. I'm afraid the screenshot is lost.
But I do have e-mails / live chats confirming the malfunction.
I'll see if I can find a screenshot of the hand history.
They did send me a few small bonuses to make up for their mistake.
I didn't make a big deal about it since I was playing with a ND bonus in the first palce.

Update:

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Freddy

Blackjack was setuped on 3:2 until 20 th march and allowed double after splits, probably as all other Rival. We recruited new employee and made a training with him.

Maybe you meant to say the 20th of February?

EDIT: If you read nothing else in this thread, you really need to read Bryan's post on page 13. Not sure if you are aware that your casino has been relegated to the rogue pit...and Bryan has requested that Rival make a statement/contact him.

 

[jas2587]

games didn't work properly and that's why we refunded the player immediately when we found out the problems :-(

what about all the other blackjack players that got cheated also because of your so called explanation? Will they be paid you can go back thru your records an see who you owe cash too
it is only the right thing to do

Cindy

 

[chuchu59]

I apologize for this thread. I cannot read all posts cause it's very too long and my english doesn't allow me to understand all subtilities...

Since the beginning, Tradition casino has the possibility to change :

- bets limits for slots
- payout for blackjack

Blackjack was setuped on 3:2 until 20 th march and allowed double after splits, probably as all other Rival. We recruited new employee and made a training with him. During this training, all parts from the Casino controller are shown and explained.

It appears that during this training, payout for blackjack has been modified for show parameters and double possibilities but, unfortunately, this new parameter has been saved!

I understand that complaining player was really surprise because, of course, felt was still continuying to show 3:2.

It also explains why Rival support was fully confused with this request, considering that none Rival casinos have such settings in BJ... So, i can say that this complaint alerted us in order to understand that our blackjack games didn't work properly and that's why we refunded the player immediately when we found out the problem and understood that parameters have been changed.

Rival setuped old parameters permitting double after splits + 3:2 payout. After this, Rival removed us this acces allowing us to access to blackjack parameters.

I think that if Tradition had the possibility to access to BJ config it's because we were the first one to launch free play bonuses with RIVAL and, as you already know, bets limits are modified during these sessions, so i imagine that Rival thought that we would need to change too bets limits or double possibilities regarding this huge freeplay bonus.... It explains why other Rival casinos never acccess to these settings.

Regarding what an operator can change now in the software : bets limits per games

Regarding what will be done to ensure that a paytable/payout cannot be changed in such a manner that it changes the odds of the game : it's an excellent point. In my case, Rival removed me this access. I think that never this situation would have appear if we didn't have access to this BJ parameters. In each casino, there is a lot of employees and many trainings on controller, so it's a risk, even if there is an accredited member close to the new employee : error can be easily done :-(

Once again, i apologize for what happened :-(

Sorry, I dont believe a single word of what you are saying but with due respect, it's only my own humble opinion.

I have always provided training to a lot of staff but they are unable to alter anything in the backend. This is what we call a controlled environment where trainees are free to test the computers but whatever they do, it does not affect the system. That said, it is still remotely possible for this to happen if you are lax on security. My subordinates once went to a training centre to learn about computer settings including how to send mass e-mails. The training unit used the company's actual mailing list instead of a quasi list and when the trainees tried them out, chaos ensued and many were enraged to receive emails that were used for 'testing'.

 

[KasinoKing]

Once again, i apologize for what happened :-(

Just one question;
Why did it take you 3 days and 150+ damaging posts before you posted your explanation & apology?

KK

 

[incrediblestuff]

Just one question;
Why did it take you 3 days and 150+ damaging posts before you posted your explanation & apology?

KK

wrong, as stated in the op, there has been a longer stretch of time since the casino was notified....way longer then 3 days...

 

[tradition]

i edited my post cause i made a mistake : it's not 20 th march but 20 th february.

Yes, we started to review all our blackjack hands and whom have had a BJ during this period. It will be finished probably next week.

kasinoking, i have jetlag and poor english as everybody know. I read the thread first yesterday.

 

[tradition]

wrong, as stated in the op, there has been a longer stretch of time since the casino was notified....way longer then 3 days...

Since we have had the complaint from 22th march : change have been done about 25th in the software by Rival himself.

 

[jas2587]

i edited my post cause i made a mistake : it's not 20 th march but 20 th february.

Yes, we started to review all our blackjack hands and whom have had a BJ during this period. It will be finished probably next week.

kasinoking, i have jetlag and poor english as everybody know. I read the thread first yesterday.

do you even know the dates you are going back an fourth Febuary March etc IIRC I thought they went back way before the last 2 months but again I could be wrong

Cindy

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

I apologize for this thread. I cannot read all posts cause it's very too long and my english doesn't allow me to understand all subtilities...

Since the beginning, Tradition casino has the possibility to change :

- bets limits for slots
- payout for blackjack

Blackjack was setuped on 3:2 until 20 th february and allowed double after splits, probably as all other Rival. We recruited new employee and made a training with him. During this training, all parts from the Casino controller are shown and explained.

It appears that during this training, payout for blackjack has been modified for show parameters and double possibilities but, unfortunately, this new parameter has been saved!

I understand that complaining player was really surprise because, of course, felt was still continuying to show 3:2.

It also explains why Rival support was fully confused with this request, considering that none Rival casinos have such settings in BJ... So, i can say that this complaint alerted us in order to understand that our blackjack games didn't work properly and that's why we refunded the player immediately when we found out the problem and understood that parameters have been changed.

Rival setuped old parameters permitting double after splits + 3:2 payout. After this, Rival removed us this acces allowing us to access to blackjack parameters.

I think that if Tradition had the possibility to access to BJ config it's because we were the first one to launch free play bonuses with RIVAL and, as you already know, bets limits are modified during these sessions, so i imagine that Rival thought that we would need to change too bets limits or double possibilities regarding this huge freeplay bonus.... It explains why other Rival casinos never acccess to these settings.

Regarding what an operator can change now in the software : bets limits per games

Regarding what will be done to ensure that a paytable/payout cannot be changed in such a manner that it changes the odds of the game : it's an excellent point. In my case, Rival removed me this access. I think that never this situation would have appear if we didn't have access to this BJ parameters. In each casino, there is a lot of employees and many trainings on controller, so it's a risk, even if there is an accredited member close to the new employee : error can be easily done :-(

Once again, i apologize for what happened :-(

Sorry, But imho this is a load of crap. You mean to tell me. You actually train NEW Employee using LIVE ONLINE SOFTWARE???? Giving them access to tight security setting. In little to no time. How long have you known this person? What past jobs has this person had? Why did it take you so long to comment on this thread? There has been nothing both problems after problems dealing with these white labels. I remember when Casino Share pull this same crap a few yrs ago. And people signing up and getting a welcome bonus; And didn't know the white label belongs to Casino Share. They got their winnings forfeit.

Also doing your hast to comment here. You got your dates mixed up. Lucky for you this isn't a murder case. Because someone mis-stated dates doing question. Will be looked upon as very suspect. I for one don't buy any of your comments. Sloto says the setting can't be changed. And You says it can/was. LMAO!!!!

 

[The Dude]

Response from Rival

I've been in contact with Rival's CEO and he's explained what happened with the Black Jack. Basically it was the operator changing the BJ game rules without notifying Rival of the change thus the mismatched felt (images).

Rival had a policy that allowed operators to make these changes. As it is now, operators must request these changes in order for Rival to ensure the rules and game images match.

He also states that operators cannot and have not been able to change the payouts on slot games or video poker.

 

[chuchu59]

I've been in contact with Rival's CEO and he's explained what happened with the Black Jack. Basically it was the operator changing the BJ game rules without notifying Rival of the change thus the mismatched felt (images).

Rival had a policy that allowed operators to make these changes. As it is now, operators must request these changes in order for Rival to ensure the rules and game images match.

He also states that operators cannot and have not been able to change the payouts on slot games or video poker.

Now I am really worried. This is basically stating that the operators can tamper with the table games eg Baccarat, War and Paigow poker.

Actually, why did Rival allow individual operators to make changes to the game rules in the first place. There have been many brands of sotware preceding them eg MG, RTG and Playtech and I doubt whether operators had that much leeway in altering the game rules. As such, the software provider is guilty of building a platform for operators to perform rogue business.

I am not sure whether it was the operators or Rival itself that was changing the payouts. I am certain there were changes eg Grandma's Attic where 2 scatters used to pay the size of your bet. Now they pay nothing.

 

[The Dude]

Now I am really worried. This is basically stating that the operators can tamper with the table games eg Baccarat, War and Paigow poker.

Actually, why did Rival allow individual operators to make changes to the game rules in the first place. There have been many brands of sotware preceding them eg MG, RTG and Playtech and I doubt whether operators had that much leeway in altering the game rules. As such, the software provider is guilty of building a platform for operators to perform rogue business.

I am not sure whether it was the operators or Rival itself that was changing the payouts. I am certain there were changes eg Grandma's Attic where 2 scatters used to pay the size of your bet. Now they pay nothing.

What Rival's CEO has told me is that the operators had the ability to change the game rules for the table games (BJ, Paigow, Craps, etc.,). Rules such as "double after split, hit 17, stay 17, etc., were all adjustable as was the BJ payout rate which ranged from 3:2, 6:5, and 1:1. They felt that the operators had this right to make these changes (like their land based cousins) as long as it was clearly displayed on the felt and within the help file.

Rival no longer allows operators access to this section (as I mentioned), and the CEO has clearly stated that operators cannot and have not been able to change the payouts on slot games or video slots.

I'm guessing that if there was a change in a slot game, it was made by Rival, not the operator (extrapolating here).

 

[Scooter7]

I've been in contact with Rival's CEO and he's explained what happened with the Black Jack. Basically it was the operator changing the BJ game rules without notifying Rival of the change thus the mismatched felt (images).

Rival had a policy that allowed operators to make these changes.

The obvious follow-up questions (to me) are:

1. How long was the 1:1 BJ (and other changes) in effect?
2. Can they identify the affected players and reimburse them?

Questions that relate to what they can or can't do with slots and VP and promises about future integrity are irrelevant to me since I'm not inclined to give a second chance on this type of issue.

Given the inquisitive nature of the forum regulars, I expect there are many people trying to get those answers already. I look forward to following the rest of the thread.

 

[gerilege]

I've been in contact with Rival's CEO and he's explained what happened with the Black Jack. Basically it was the operator changing the BJ game rules without notifying Rival of the change thus the mismatched felt (images).

Then basically Rival has been on the market with a software platform for years which can be brought to an inconsistent state (i.e. major logic not reflected in UI) solely by applying available customer settings.

Imagine that you change the top&bottom margins in MSWord from 2 cm to 10 cm for each page of your document (originally 10 pages in total), but the read-only page numbers at the bottom (i.e. 1 of 10) would not reflect the re-numbering of your document in the background and still show your document as 10 pages instead of something like 1 of 30. Would it make you feel comfortable using Word?

 

[bonustreak]

kasinoking, i have jetlag and poor english as everybody know. I read the thread first yesterday

Really? I wish you would stop playing that card it is getting really old. You seem to do very well with English when you need to.

 

[bb28]

After reading Traditions reply and CM's it seems that Rival and Traditions reputation have been irreparably harmed by this latest fiasco. There will always be doubts in player's mind and I don't see how they will ever recover at least in players minds.
I think it's going to be interesting to see how many affiliates keep them on their pages.

 

[Pinababy69]

i edited my post cause i made a mistake : it's not 20 th march but 20 th february.

And if I had worded my post....don't you mean the 20th of January, would you have edited your post to reflect that? You have admitted you didn't even read the thread. I'll concede a language barrier, although as Bonustreak stated...English seems to work fine for you when you need it to. If I were the owner of this casino, and felt like I couldn't grasp what had been posted in English....I would have someone translate for me, each and every post.

I'd still like to know what you were thinking setting a "basic" BJ game to 1:1? I've done a bit of asking around, and the only forms of blackjack that are usually set to 1:1 are exotic variants, with extensive rules...not basic Vegas Blackjack. And they are set at 1:1 from the outset.

If your explanation is to be believed, you allowed trainees to have access to the absolute most crucial part of your operation ie. the games themselves. What do you think this is...a board game? I seriously have to wonder if you have ANY experience in relation to gambling, online or off ie. B&M. And do you have a basic understanding of math, and the games themselves?

 

[AussieDave]

I am certain there were changes eg Grandma's Attic where 2 scatters used to pay the size of your bet. Now they pay nothing.

Well it wouldn't surprise me!

5 Reel Circus used to pay the following for scatters:
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = ?

This was before CocoRob admitted tweaking the slots. I'm 99.999% sure that Grandma's Attic was also one of the slots that was tweak back then also. Maybe Zoozie can clarify what slots were tweaked back in 2007; had their pay-tables changed (halved).

Now 5 Reel Circus pays (after tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 10 free spins
5 scatters = 10 free spins

The same goes for Cleopatras Coins (before - CocoRob tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = 100 free spins

Now Cleopatras Coins (after tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 10 free spins
5 scatters = ?

If that doesn't tell you that Rival software & or Casino Operators can and have changed slot payouts back in 2007, then nothing stopping them doing it again. Especially since we've had reps telling us it doesn't happen, which is utter crap. Zoozie has the screen cap for 65% RTP changed back on 2009....I don't know what else to say...


Cheers


Dave

 

[The Dude]

Well it wouldn't surprise me!

5 Reel Circus used to pay the following for scatters:
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = ?

This was before CocoRob admitted tweaking the slots. ....

Where did CocoRob admit tweaking the slots?

 

[Zoozie]

5 Reel Circus used to pay the following for scatters:
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = ?

This was before CocoRob admitted tweaking the slots. I'm 99.999% sure that Grandma's Attic was also one of the slots that was tweak back then also. Maybe Zoozie can clarify what slots were tweaked back in 2007; had their pay-tables changed (halved).

I can not remember CocoRob saying that, but whatever he said I do tend to trust since he was very open-minded and listening.

What you are are talking about is when Rival opened their first casinos and one of the was Cocao Casino. Back then all their video-slots was really boring and way way WAY too low variance to be interesting (same mistake done by a few other software providers as well...). So Rival did changed them many times. Also completely changed paytable as well until they customers were satisfied. Nothing wrong with that, they listened to the players.

My problem is that is seems Rival themself VERY often changes the RTP for video-slots for the casinos, and they are not have same RTP for same slot at different casinos. This is the only explanation left for the (also recently) changes in RTP for the video slots. Why so many changes, did the casinos ask for RTP for the video-slots on a very regular basis?
Also why try to semi-cover up the RTP in the format "94.23%" to "around 95". And why was some slots right after this seen as "around 80" and "around 65" ?

However the thread was originally about a non-paying BJ game. I brought the video-slots incidents up because they showed that very regular tampering was indeed going on with the video-slots and also that games was able to change from day to day. (This may have been done by Rival and not by the casinos).

 

[chuchu59]

Well it wouldn't surprise me!

5 Reel Circus used to pay the following for scatters:
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = ?

This was before CocoRob admitted tweaking the slots. I'm 99.999% sure that Grandma's Attic was also one of the slots that was tweak back then also. Maybe Zoozie can clarify what slots were tweaked back in 2007; had their pay-tables changed (halved).

Now 5 Reel Circus pays (after tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 10 free spins
5 scatters = 10 free spins

The same goes for Cleopatras Coins (before - CocoRob tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = 100 free spins

Now Cleopatras Coins (after tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 10 free spins
5 scatters = ?

If that doesn't tell you that Rival software & or Casino Operators can and have changed slot payouts back in 2007, then nothing stopping them doing it again. Especially since we've had reps telling us it doesn't happen, which is utter crap. Zoozie has the screen cap for 65% RTP changed back on 2009....I don't know what else to say...


Cheers


Dave

As recent as last week, I got 20 free spins for 4 scatters at Cleo's coins playing at Orange Gamez (with a free chip of course).

If Cocoa or any other Rival casino for that matter, only has 10 free spins for 4 scatters isnt that enough evidence of tweaking the slots?

 

[bb28]

Where did CocoRob admit tweaking the slots?

In answer to your question.......here and here.

 

[Shyguy]

Have learned so much from reading this long thread, and only hope that some answers are provided very soon. This type of thing will harm the whole industry and as an affiliate you really begin to wonder who can be trusted, no matter how well you know them.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Ban Me if necessary but John's October 26, 2008 reply (six months) after he was made aware there was a problem per our hour and a half phone conversation regarding:

(Hope the following makes sense JOD) When the player clicked the split button to split ACES or any pairs that basic stategy calls for, the pairs were not actually being split if your cursor only went in approx. 15% of the left side of the split button which the split button was the last button on the right, think about it (thus,the player had no chance of respliting and then possibly doubling down the original split as well as any possible resplits) The pairs were actually being doubled down instead of split as clicked and intended. Thus,the player was doubling his bet that in all cases has a high negative or losing expectation. Would you double down a pair of 9's or 18?

If the split button would have split the cards instead of wrongfully doubling the pairs, the player may have a chance of having 8 bets with a positive expectation. For example, at a max. bet of $200 per hand (my avg. was $180 over approx. 130,000 hands, ftr), when the bet was doubled when the player clicked and intended (split button) to split, the player was highly likely to lose $400 being no fault of the player whereby if the split button that was clicked had split the pairs, the player (under the best case scenario) could have won $1600. A possible negative player bankroll swing of $2000 on the original one hand of pair's. The house advantage of single hand Rival blackjack was, well I am not about to figure it out (not sure it can be) but this is malfeasance beyond my comprehension $ wise. That said there was a way for Rival to reasonably compensate the affected players by pulling all player's hand histories prior to the fix on Oct. 28, 2008.

Oh I forgot, Rival denied the whole issue or to that effect. Let me check for the specifics please on the prior sentence!

From : thisisvegas
To : NASHVEGAS
Date : 2008-10-26 16:59
Title : Re: howdy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I sent your last statement to Rival as well but I remember talking about it and I did ask them to look into it. I don't think they took it seriously but probably only looked at basic counts of doubling when splitting occurs. I will see how much of a difference it has made but going to take a while. I would say that space is close to 15% of the button space (i.e. the split button--- added by NASH for clarity on 3-27-2010) which activates the double down. Whatever I find out I will let you know. Expect it to be adjusted soon but I really don't know if this is an easy job or not but I am sure it is urgent.

Was nice chatting and anytime.

John"

Bryan, what did your Rival contact say about the above????

When will I be able to post screenshots on the forum's new server without having to resize? (Just a question and not an implication as I was accussed yesterday.)

 

[AussieDave]

In answer to your question.......here and here.

Thanks bb

Also in reference to my statement about the slots having their pay-tables cut by 50% (halved 1/2)...Which equates to the slots being tampered with, you can find that info here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rival-it-only-gets-better.14943/

In this thread we've been feed fabrications by Rival reps. We seen these myths busted by contradicting evidence. CM members who can suss out when they're getting hoodwinked, are refusing to lay down this time.

By CocoRob admitting to tweaking slots, changing pay-tables and changing reel positions back in 2006 - 2007, Rival should have been made accountable for these actions back then. It's not good enough to keep sweeping this stuff under the carpet, making excuses and generally turning a blind eye to these issues.

Is there anything worse? IMHO these are dubious acts not befitting an online casino & or software provider. And these action always come at the cost and expense of players being screwed over.

IMHO it was roguish behaviour back then and nothing has changed.
Now with this Blackjack screw up, I'd lay bet that Rival game tweaking is as common practice that's been going on since 2006.



Cheers



Dave

 

[Zoozie]

In answer to your question.......here and here.

Thanks bb

Also in reference to my statement about the slots having their pay-tables cut by 50% (halved 1/2)...Which equates to the slots being tampered with, you can find that info here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rival-it-only-gets-better.14943/

The tampering happening here is not related to the tampering I am talking about. It is indeed tampering, but they were redefining the slots (for all casinos!). The initial state of the video slots when first rival casinos opened needed some improvement. And this is just what happened here. This was only done right after the first rival casinos opened. When further slots was released they had high enough variance and did not need this kind of reworking.

It simply an improvement of the slots, it was not an attempt to tweak RTP, it was an attempt to make the slots more playable and generally it was just the variance of the slots that was increased.

So the quotes from CocoaBob are not relevant, it is an entirely different issue which was much needed and happened only while a very few rival casinos was open.

 

[The Dude]

In answer to your question.......here and here.

He didn't say that he changed them; only that they were changed. Big difference here.

@Nashvegas - he didn't say anything because I didn't ask him about it. If you PAB, I can get it to the right people, I'm sure.

 

[KasinoKing]

The same goes for Cleopatras Coins (before - CocoRob tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 20 free spins
5 scatters = 100 free spins

Now Cleopatras Coins (after tweaking):
3 scatters = 10 free spins
4 scatters = 10 free spins
5 scatters = ?

Which casino did you see that at?

Screenshots of paytable & rules taken 5 minutes ago:-
.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This spectacular melt down seems to have one major contributory factor. RIVAL CENTRAL SUPPORT. How many YEARS have players been on at Rival about this? How many YEARS have Rival buried their heads in the sand and done nothing?

Now, it threatens to CRIPPLE the entire business!

The fact that a trainee was able to do such damage, even whilst supervised, and then for it to remain undetected until a player FORCIBLY pressed the issue through several layers of bullshit, misdirection, and fobbing offs.

This WAS reported earlier, but the player was told it would be fixed, but it was in fact dismissed without investigation, and the player fobbed off in the hope they would let it go. A month later, another player sees it, gets proof, and does NOT back off, but rams home the point until the casino admits there is a problem.

The player is told it was not serious, and given the impression it was a one-off glitch, only affecting his account, and was probably only around a few days. He was refunded ONLY the underpayments he noticed.

Doubts simmered, and members here wanted consistent explanations. This is when everything fell apart for Rival, with each new "official" statement from a rep contradicting one or more former, and equally "official" statements. There is ALREADY an impression that the policy is to lie to players about "uncomfortable" issues, as has been the experience of players over the issues surrounding payment delays.

Although Traditions explanation sounds plausible, it beggars belief that the issuer of it's gaming license allows this kind of lax approach to the integrity of REAL MONEY casino software (trainees being trained on a LIVE system, rather than a simulation). If a bank is training up a new market trader, do they give him/her $1,000,000 of REAL money to play with, or do they set up a SIMULATION, and then discuss what they did right, and what they did wrong, at the end of the day's trading.

Even Rival's CEO has given an inconsistent explanation, he has been a little cryptic in saying that although operators WERE able to change the Blackjack rules, they were NEVER able to change the slots.

This is inconsistent with the fact that the RTP of some slots is DIFFERENT when checked in different casinos. Clearly, there IS some mechanism whereby different operators can have the SAME slots set up with different RTPs. All the CEOs reply suggests is that this has ALWAYS been done by Rival, but surely this MUST also have been at the request of operators, else we would have the SAME RTP across ALL Rival casinos.

The early development phase where Rival tweaked slots after player feedback is not the problem, it is the CURRENT situation where there are STILL differences between different casinos.

IF there was NOT an option to run slots with different RTP settings, the different rule pages simply would NEVER have been created, yet they exist, and can be seen - and they can differ between one casino and the next.

 

[AussieDave]

The tampering happening here is not related to the tampering I am talking about. It is indeed tampering, but they were redefining the slots (for all casinos!). The initial state of the video slots when first rival casinos opened need improvement. And this is what happened here. This was only done right after the first rival casinos opened. When further slots was released they had high enough variance and did not need this kind of reworking.

It simply an improvement of the slots, it was not an attempt to tweak RTP, it was an attempt to make the slots more playable and generally it was just the variance of the slots that was increased.

So the quotes from CocoaBob are not relevant, it is an entirely different issue which was much needed and happened only while a very few rival casinos was open.

I was aware that peeps raised issues about the iSlots that they were eye candy and not much more. If I could find that thread(s) I would, but that's not my forte`.

Maybe someone here will do me a favour and dig that stuff up

Although this thread is about the Blackjack 1:1 odds at Traditional Casino, I honestly believe that the slot tweaking; for whatever reason or excuse, is an important issue to be raised in this thread also. If anything it shows that the software was tweaked after being released.

Besides, if the slots were not fair to players when released, that opens up another can of worms. Not to mention that having the ability to tamper with a released game is iffy at best.

The following quote is from the meeting that CM attended with MGS.

RTP - once a game is developed, the RTP is set in stone and that's it. It's never changed.

At one time or another most online gamblers will question if a game is fair or if the outcome can be tampered with. The above statement highlights and addresses the concerns that people of this forum have held question to.

Transposing this to the OP thread topic, and introducing other instances where it proves beyond doubt that Rival software has the capacity to be tampered with, IMHO makes any justification for tweaking a game a moot point.

I'll admit, I'm not the most skilled at constructing a fluid argument. But I do have the hands on experience of playing at online casinos since 1997. And further more, I've earned a living from this industry since 2000.

When something doesn't smells right, it ain't right, least for me.

However what we've been presented with in this thread is not gut feelings, hunches or hearsay. CocoRob admitted to tweaking the slots, paytables and reels position.

The OP has posted screen caps of the 1:1 odds and other documentations that shows the Traditional Casino Standard Blackjack game was tampered with.

We've had Nicolas resign from his job. Whilst other white label Rival reps post statements that have been proved to be false.

All this evidence has been laid on the table. But still doubts are being held about Rival software tampering...

When members moan about MGS being rigged with no proof, and then there is proof that Rival games have been tampered with; more than on one occasion, this fact is overshadowed by justification and spin doctor routines.

Sorry but I just throw my hands into the air and wonder where some peeps heads are at...


Cheers



Dave

 

[AussieDave]

He didn't say that he changed them; only that they were changed. Big difference here.

Big difference how? What because CocoRob didn't physically change the reels, pay-tables ect..ect...himself.

But they were changed, tweaked, tampered with after they were released.

Which brings another question into the ring...

Were these slot games (in fact all Rival games) audited before release? And if they were, that auditing would be null and void after they were tampered with.

Were these tweaked games taken offline until they had been re-audited? No.



Cheers



Dave

 

[bb28]

He didn't say that he changed them; only that they were changed. Big difference here.

OK.........I'm going to be the first to ask what is probably a stupid question, but how does it make a difference as to who changed them?

 

[The Dude]

OK.........I'm going to be the first to ask what is probably a stupid question, but how does it make a difference as to who changed them?

If an operator has the ability to change the RTP - especially on the fly, then this can lead to abuse and unethical manipulations. MGS has their RTP set in stone, but that's the only software provider I know that has done this. It wouldn't hurt to ask around though. We know RTG can change the RTP upon request. I'm sure others can as well.

 

[vinylweatherman]

OK.........I'm going to be the first to ask what is probably a stupid question, but how does it make a difference as to who changed them?

That's it, it DOESN'T, but many of the cryptic answers we have received from reps have been a play on semantics, such as "WE have never been able to alter the slot's RTP from our back end"

WE are supposed to take this to mean that the slots are developed, and then "set in stone"; but it could ALSO mean that this statement is 100% truthful, but INCOMPLETE, and that only RIVAL have access to the tweaks, and that operators have to ask Rival to do it for them.

We have been here before, RTG. Initially, ALL the tweaking options were a closely guarded secret, and it was mostly "gut feeling" and inuendo, and testimony from less than reputable witnesses. In time, we have learned that it was once possible for RTG operators to tweak the slot RTP and table game paytables almost "on the fly", implementing these changes by making a casino wide update. This often needed a short spell of "down for maintenance" whilst the updates were applied. Later, RTG changed the system because of abuse by some operators, and now changes have to be requested through RTG, who can refuse them if they feel they bring the brand into disrepute. Now, we know the nature of these settings with considerable detail.

Despite this, players STILL play at RTG, and Bryan is prepared to accredit RTG casinos.

Rival can keep the facility, BUT it has to be SEEN to be all "above board", with no opportunity for operators to mess around with RTP settings "on the fly".

This scandal means that Rival have to go "the extra mile" to convince players that there was no intent to rip-off players, or to allow operators free reign to do so. They must therefore come clean about EVERYTHING, and ensure that robust auditing systems are in place to prevent a similar incident when operators, by whatever means, select bespoke rule changes and/or slot RTP settings.

A restoration of the openness once seen would be a first, and this could be going back to accurate displays of RTP on the rule pages, and these also being worked out from the actual settings, and NOT being dependent upon someone loading the appropriate page into the system to match the changes. The table games should have the same safeguards. Changing a rule should AUTOMATICALLY refresh the rules page, it should NOT rely on someone remembering to swap it for a new one after making the changes.

Rival can program this seemingly advanced player class database, yet seem unable to master something as simple as having software driven rule and RTP displays, but rather relying on the human element to select the correct page, and load it into the system.

Operators also need to take security more seriously. Trainees should first be let loose on a simulation, and only when they have reached a certain level of competence, AND passed through security vetting, should they be given access to the real thing.

This could have been VERY different. The trainee could have been colluding with others, and could have tweaked games to pay out far MORE than they shoud, 100%+ RTP, and then colluded to drain the casino through play on these tampered games. PLAYERS suffered this time, but the same lax procedures left the CASINO wide open to damaging losses.

Of interest, there have been a number of cases where insiders have tampered with the code of Fruit Machines, and then sold these "back doors" for thousands of pounds. This is why there have been so many "emptiers" around for Fruit Machines. It was NOT only down to sloppy programming.

 

[AussieDave]

If an operator has the ability to change the RTP - especially on the fly, then this can lead to abuse and unethical manipulations.

Humour me for a while...

If a slot has a symbol on a reel or each reel changed or symbol(s) removed from each reel, does this not affect the way the slot machine functions and or its RTP?

Zoozie provided evidence the SlotoCash ISlot Psychedeilic Sixties slot had changed from 95% to 65% RTP a week later. That's a 30% reduction in RTP. Are you saying that's acceptable?

Given that a 65% RTP is illegal in most, if not all land based casinos.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/slotocash-slot-configured-to-65-payout.32540/

Further proof throughout this thread shows that someone had tampered with the Traditional Blackjack odds.

In addition proof has been posted that someone has on a number of occasions tampered with Rival slot machines too.

Given that all this evidence is out in the open...I have to ask...

Dandera Casino (a white label rival) was placed onto the Not Recommended list for "Piss Poor customer support".
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...forum-rep-wont-reply-to-legit-question.36171/

Which IMHO was the right action taken.

Yet here we have solid proof that Rival software can not only be tampered with, it has been tampered with on numerous occasions.

But instead of the same fate as other software that in the past has been rogued for exactly the same issue, all I'm seeing is semantics and excuses being made.

If changing the RTP can lead to "abuse and unethical manipulations" which ultimately affects the casino player, why is this not an issue now? Why are we still having to prove the obvious?


Cheers



Dave

 

[NASHVEGAS]

He didn't say that he changed them; only that they were changed. Big difference here.

@Nashvegas - he didn't say anything because I didn't ask him about it. If you PAB, I can get it to the right people, I'm sure.

Bryan, in the US, the incorrectly functioning split button issue (hereby defined as the issue in this post) is/would be fraud et al (possibly criminal and definite civil despite any legal disclaimers and/or TandC's) and not JMO, fwiw!

In Meisterland, I would hope it would be a possible Rogue (or Rouge) issue. Since it was an Universal player issue affecting all BJ players for approx. two and one-half years at all Rival Gaming software operators, I see/saw no reason to currently PAB or in the past to have PAB'ed. Moreso for your information and for the record, the forum BJ professional/expert (my only cryptic comment I hope, sorry , but hopefully we are on the same page as to whom and why), whom prefers to not get publically involved, has viewed the subject screenshots pursuant to the issue and labeled them long ago "very compelling". Please PM moi your email if you desire and I will forward his email comments for your perusal as well as some of my screenshots/digital pics I took the day before the anticipated, unethical, fraudulent Rival cover-up (which can also be proved). All the SS's and pics are pursuant to my prior subject BJ post(s) on my subject issue(s) in this thread and actually elsewhere on the forum.

Bryan, clicking on the split button with a pair of 8's or total of 16 (or any pairs combination) with the intent of spliting the pairs but the software, not the player, instead actually doubling down the pairs (initially, the issue occurrences were unpredictable but finally six months after initially notifying Rival of the serious issue/problem I (not Rival) was able to pinpoint the exact cause ((,not the exact technical cause,)) and occasions of these issue occurences) should not keep being ignored universally if one understands the complicated mathematical expectations and all the possible but very, very likely subsequent associated damages to the Players pursuant to this specific Rival Gaming blackjack software issue

Since my opinion on the resulting issue's very costly damages to the Players opines that the damages can not be determined even if Rival Gaming would have pulled all the subject BJ hand histories versus sweeping the issue under the rug (see prior posts and my initial but not detailed PM on October 26th or 27th, 2008 to you before the denied as anticipated October 28th, 2008 Rival Gaming fix of the issue via a BJ update to all Rival operators,). Would you consider consulting Michael Shackleford for his opinion on the fairness of Rival's single hand BJ based on the above subject issue or issues as well as how to determine the mathematical BJ damages to the Players based on the above issue or issues as I once again contend it would be impossible to determine the exact actual but highly absurd house edge. It certainly was not the ~.63% as Rival and affiliates (affiliates, logically unintentionally I am quite sure but still) represented or in fact anywhere close to the published Rival single hand BJ expectation.

Thanks for your further attention to this matter

 

[jod5413]

Damn It, Nash!

No matter how many people tell you to make sense and not be so "cryptic" (and more people than just Bryan have said this), you continue with your "opine this", "moi that", "pursuant to this", etc., etc., you make me want to slap the pi$$ out of you! Literally only, of course.

The main reason many here do not like or listen or want to help you is because of your arrogant personality. You talk down to people and use all your dictionary words, which I might add are not regularly used in every day speech and posting on forums.

Your quoting and highlighting and large and then small type, I could go on and on, but since I have tried to tell you this patiently, even nicely, at least once, it is obvious I am talking into a black hole. Hell, with all your money from gambling, you could hire a translator for your posting. Tell them, in "your language", what you want to say and let them turn it in to something we all can read.

You Sir, are hopeless. And That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is all of it in a nutshell.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Damn It, Nash!

No matter how many people tell you to make sense and not be so "cryptic" (and more people than just Bryan have said this), you continue with your "opine this", "moi that", "pursuant to this", etc., etc., you make me want to slap the pi$$ out of you! Literally only, of course.

The main reason many here do not like or listen or want to help you is because of your arrogant personality. You talk down to people and use all your dictionary words, which I might add are not regularly used in every day speech and posting on forums.

Your quoting and highlighting and large and then small type, I could go on and on, but since I have tried to tell you this patiently, even nicely, at least once. Hell, with all your money from gambling, you could hire a translator for your posting. Tell them, in "your language", what you want to say and let them turn it in to something we all can read.

You Sir, are hopeless. And That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is all of it in a nutshell.

Pot,kettle

 

[kakata]

Damn It, Nash!

No matter how many people tell you to make sense and not be so "cryptic" (and more people than just Bryan have said this), you continue with your "opine this", "moi that", "pursuant to this", etc., etc., you make me want to slap the pi$$ out of you! Literally only, of course.

The main reason many here do not like or listen or want to help you is because of your arrogant personality. You talk down to people and use all your dictionary words, which I might add are not regularly used in every day speech and posting on forums.

Your quoting and highlighting and large and then small type, I could go on and on, but since I have tried to tell you this patiently, even nicely, at least once. Hell, with all your money from gambling, you could hire a translator for your posting. Tell them, in "your language", what you want to say and let them turn it in to something we all can read.

You Sir, are hopeless. And That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is all of it in a nutshell.

Im sure there are ppl on the forum that are able to undearstend 100% what you say and the way you say it my friend....unfortunately Im not amongst em, and Id love to undearsteand you too....please give me the opportunity to do so.
Thanks

PS what I understood sofar is: you have been robbed/cheated by TIV!!!

 

[jod5413]

Kakata,

You seem to be a sweet guy, other when someone irritates you, like I have, with my post. I am sorry to irritate you, but that does not invalidate the truth of my post.

Laurie Jim, you are a nice gal, I am sorry you do not like my post, Hell, I am sorry if anyone or everyone does not like my post.

But, I will try again to say this in an easier manner so you might understand, OK Kakata?

Nash posts funny and people like Casinomeister and I and possibly others do not "get" what he is saying. It is that easy to understand.

Also, Nash, like me and possibly others, posts snarky at times, only he does it in a big way, once again confusing some of us.

It would be really great if we all could understand Nash as easily as you do, Kakata. You are obviously very smart, and I, myself, have to really work hard because of my lack of smarts.

And Nash, you know I like you and have tried this last year to make up for our past "problems". I really, really want to know what you are saying, I know there is good stuff in your head, I just do not get. Sorry, I really don't.


There Kakata, is that any better for you? I tried really hard just for you.

 

[dcpam39]

Jodi, i may be wrong, but i thought kakata was referring to Nash, and agreeing with you,
Pam

 

[LaurieJim]

I liked your post Jod, just like you i have a hard time understanding Nash but what i gathered from Kakata's post is that Nash got robbed by Thisisvegas, anything else thats so cryptic, like you i havent a clue sometimes and must wait for a translator


Laurie

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Im sure there are ppl on the forum that are able to undearstend 100% what you say and the way you say it my friend....unfortunately Im not amongst em, and Id love to undearsteand you too....please give me the opportunity to do so.
Thanks

PS what I understood sofar is: you have been robbed/cheated by TIV!!!

Jodi, i may be wrong, but i thought kakata was referring to Nash, and agreeing with you,
Pam

My take also Pam but Kakata's native language is not English although his English is excellent!!

 

[kakata]

Kakata,

You seem to be a sweet guy, other when someone irritates you, like I have, with my post. I am sorry to irritate you, but that does not invalidate the truth of my post.

Laurie Jim, you are a nice gal, I am sorry you do not like my post, Hell, I am sorry if anyone or everyone does not like my post.

But, I will try again to say this in an easier manner so you might understand, OK Kakata?

Nash posts funny and people like Casinomeister and I and possibly others do not "get" what he is saying. It is that easy to understand.

Also, Nash, like me and possibly others, posts snarky at times, only he does it in a big way, once again confusing some of us.

It would be really great if we all could understand Nash as easily as you do, Kakata. You are obviously very smart, and I, myself, have to really work hard because of my lack of smarts.

And Nash, you know I like you and have tried this last year to make up for our past "problems". I really, really want to know what you are saying, I know there is good stuff in your head, I just do not get. Sorry, I really don't.


There Kakata, is that any better for you? I tried really hard just for you.

I swear to you on my daughter...I wasnt referring to your post at all....I tried to say what I thoght was good for both of us and many others.
If you dont undaersteand what he's saying....imagine me.
How could you possibly have misundearstood my post?
Well Im sure you could...if that is your answer.....
Im sorry, it wasnt my intention at all.

 

[Mavin1]

If an operator has the ability to change the RTP - especially on the fly, then this can lead to abuse and unethical manipulations.
B]MGS has their RTP set in stone, but that's the only software provider I know that has done this.[/B]
It wouldn't hurt to ask around though. We know RTG can change the RTP upon request. I'm sure others can as well.

As evidenced by Casino Jacks open remarks of fixing the RTP for certain players on request.
Also evidenced by results from long term play with such platforms as RTG and RIVAL.

Obviously the requests to change RTP is probably going on constantly with not only RTG but Rival as well. It would be interesting to know how many times a lowered RTP request is made and how often by these casinos. How does this work, hundreds of casinos are calling the providers a gazillion times a day to push the RTP button up or down? How many RTP button pushing employees do they go through because their button finger wore out?
Seriously, back to the issue....
As for Tradition, you should never try to pass off an error/mistake/manipulation or whatever to the fault of an employee. You are ultimately responsible for what goes on in your casino, be it staff or tech and need to be professional/mature in the public how you handle situations such as this one.
Blaming this "oops" on a new employee is very unprofessional.

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

If an operator has the ability to change the RTP - especially on the fly, then this can lead to abuse and unethical manipulations. MGS has their RTP set in stone, but that's the only software provider I know that has done this. It wouldn't hurt to ask around though. We know RTG can change the RTP upon request. I'm sure others can as well.

I don't believe that either. I remember late 90s. You could barely win a hand in MG BJ. Dealer 20, Dealer 21, Dealer BJ all too often. And now its starting the same trend over again.

If one believes MG is fair and square is sadly mistaken. Its like where is the economy bailout money? It went to large Corps and CEOs. They had to be protective. And if you think MG isn't going to protect its owners. Then more power to you. Remember when we US citizen was begging for Dick Chaney to open his book concerning his oil deals. And he NEVER DID! Same thing with MG and its software setting. Why in the hell will I spend large sum of money on a software, that I can't control? It makes no sense. If large Corps can control the Stock Market. Surely something as simple as a casino software is Nothing! I've seen too much shadiness with both RTG, RIVAL, and MG. Hell I even seen it while playing video poker at B&M casino.

 

[jod5413]

Pot,kettle

No, No, my friend. I seldom use foreign words, or words bigger thatn 4-6 letters, or I confuse myself!

Jodi, i may be wrong, but i thought kakata was referring to Nash, and agreeing with you,
Pam

Dang, ya think? I may be the one to need a translator? I really am getting more and more embarrassed by this misunderstanding.

I liked your post Jod, just like you i have a hard time understanding Nash but what i gathered from Kakata's post is that Nash got robbed by Thisisvegas, anything else thats so cryptic, like you i havent a clue sometimes and must wait for a translator
Laurie

I thought you guys were chastising me for being mouthy, when I really was just trying to be understood. I hate not understanding Nash. It drives me crazy.

I swear to you on my daughter...I wasnt referring to your post at all....I tried to say what I thoght was good for both of us and many others.
If you dont undaersteand what he's saying....imagine me.
How could you possibly have misundearstood my post?
Well Im sure you could...if that is your answer.....
Im sorry, it wasnt my intention at all.

And I am sorry, too. Kakata, sometimes I am being "snarky" mostly cuz I am old and cranky. Anyhow, like they say or use to say, my bad!

Sorry for the massive derail, everybody. I promise I will not do it again. Really.

 

[nisosbar]

IF there was NOT an option to run slots with different RTP settings, the different rule pages simply would NEVER have been created, yet they exist, and can be seen - and they can differ between one casino and the next.

And the reason why this is important is that as was demonstrated in the other thread, blackjack and video poker online are, in reality, SLOTS, NOT randomly dealt cards from a freshly shuffled 52-card deck(s).

That is, there is not a single game in an online casino that is NOT a slot with an RTP, which is in contrast to playing blackjack or other table games at a bricks&mortar casino, where mathematics and statistics govern the game, and there IS no RTP.