Random my ****

[frankelvscc]

Slot tracker is very interesting for example on there big bass bonanza 420,000 spins from the community who have the extension and only a 72% RTP. Then again big bass splash 406,000 spins for a RTP of 116%.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Slot tracker is very interesting for example on there big bass bonanza 420,000 spins from the community who have the extension and only a 72% RTP. Then again big bass splash 406,000 spins for a RTP of 116%.

I can't remember the thread where it was discussed, but by all accounts that Slot Tracker isn't necessarily very good at tracking slots, and gets stuff wrong. It can't be trusted as an authoritative source of stats.

 

[Jono777]

I can't remember the thread where it was discussed, but by all accounts that Slot Tracker isn't necessarily very good at tracking slots, and gets stuff wrong. It can't be trusted as an authoritative source of stats.

Along with many, many other things *

*Not aimed at you, have to 'cover my arse' on here these days, just in case

 

[DreddBeat]

I can't remember the thread where it was discussed, but by all accounts that Slot Tracker isn't necessarily very good at tracking slots, and gets stuff wrong. It can't be trusted as an authoritative source of stats.

What RTP tracker would you recommend?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What RTP tracker would you recommend?

I'm not aware of any third party applications that do the job flawlessly, none of the slot providers publish any kind of APIs or suchlike to hook into (that I know of), so any effort is by definition going to be a bit hacky and prone to errors.

You've got stuff like Videoslots' MyRTP feature which seems to work well, and hooks into their own backend, so should be accurate. At 3Dice you can pull your own play logs as .csv files and manipulate them in Excel, but that's very much the exception rather than the rule.

I think the best answer is probably just asking the casino for your stats, although that's a right ballache of course, and requires running the gauntlet of customer support.....

 

[pekka55]

I wouldn't trust any numbers you haven't verified yourself. And forget about any chats, the people that work in livechats are for the most part completely useless. Most of them have no idea what rtp even is. It's some pimply faced teenager answering there that's probably never even played at a casino.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

I wouldn't trust any numbers you haven't verified yourself. And forget about any chats, the people that work in livechats are for the most part completely useless. Most of them have no idea what rtp even is. It's some pimply faced teenager answering there that's probably never even played at a casino.

I see live chat operators as the casino equivalent of people who skip paying for their meals at restaurants and are made to wash dishes as compensation.

 

[Kroffe]

Once in a while you get to talk to someone that is actually knowledgeable about slots, the casino they are representing, their terms etc.
But that is sadly not the norm, i reached out to a Swedish casino a while back to ask about what rtp they were using etc, couldnt see without making an account so i figured it would be quicker just to ask since i wasnt going to play there unless they were running 96%+.

The guy i talked to told me all casinos with a Swedish license use the highest rtp available and that they have to do that.
I tried to explain to him that casinos can pick and choose what rtp they want to run on their slots but he was not having it.
No clue where he got that idea from, but he was adamant about it so i gave up.

Not so surprisingly they were in fact not using the highest rtp models.
Who could have guessed.

 

[Kroffe]

Oh right, the info tab they had on Dead or alive was also wrong, which i also told them.
But once again i was told i was wrong.

But in their defense, its pretty hard to figure out how Dead or alive works.
Not even Netent can do it, so expecting a casino to figure it out might be asking too much.

This is from Netent. I must have been playing a different version of Dead or alive.

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Dead or Alive Free Spins and Bonuses​

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[Siohmy]

There are multiple culprits we can point to in the intriguing case of 'Who Killed Online Slots?' - massively increasing volatility and impenetrable maths models would certainly be near the top of the list, especially as 'real reels' are basically now a thing of the past (even on reel based games), and obviously so on cluster based games and suchlike. Games such as Bonanza have reel strips so long as to be near meaningless, and can switch them out dynamically depending on what it's doing (or perhaps more tellingly, what it doesn't want to happen).

In the days of the MG Viper Client slots, you could literally extract the reel strips and work out the game maths, plus the paytables often gave a very good indication as to the volatility of the game you were playing. This was one of the reasons I stuck with 3Dice for so long, as they still had a decent number of these more 'traditional' style games on their books, but alas even they went down the cluster game route and I found myself feeling increasingly uninspired by their output. (I had high hopes for their most recent release Dreamweaver, which looks like a reel-based game, but then you actually play it and realise it's a cluster game. Sigh.)

I reviewed it in this thread - Introducing a brand new Slot at 3Dice -DREAMWEAVER! 100% Match up to $100! - Casinomeister Forum

I remember we discussed some of this stuff at great length when the whole Jammin' Jars controversy played out, and many of us noted here at CM, and myself in videos on my previous YT channel, that we'd reached a point of complete disconnect between what the player was seeing on screen, and what the backend server RNG was doing, to the point that you're not playing an online slot at all in the sense of what many of us would consider that to be.

Add in all the other stuff that's going on, nerfed RTPs, old (far better!) games constantly being retired (I know it's hard to believe now but NetEnt used to put out banger after banger!), general shittiness from both online casinos and the regulators, along with the increased friction in getting money in and out of online casinos, and of course the constant deluge of what are IMO low-effort games from a million different providers who are motivated to create games that take as much money as possible, as quickly as possible, in their brief 'window of opportunity', as opposed to trying to satisfy you in the longer term as both a player and customer - and well, it's certainly no mystery as to why I've decided to hang my online slotting hat up and do something else.

(Oh and bonus buys of course, which I think have corrupted game design on a fundamental and completely unfixable level for as long as they continue to exist. Plus, lest we forget NLC's action spins, which literally do away with the entire pretence of even making a fucking game at all, reducing the process down to the gambling equivalent of injecting heroin straight into the veins.)

I mean, on a broader sort of level, I actually agree with snorky - i.e. it's all gone to shit and there's no point playing anymore, we just seem to have a difference of opinion on the specifics of exactly what's happened (And he, for some reason, is still actually playing the bloody things.....)

Pretty much spot on in respect of online slots. I'd also add that, in addition to the near complete disconnect of what you are seeing on screen and what the slot is realistically doing in the background is the mindset being put into modern slots. Slots always used to tease and have varying sizes of payouts on features but you always felt these were somewhat fair. Even with the smoke and mirrors many. as you say, had reel sets which could allow for a degree of a clue as to what the slot was capable of.

These days, not only is that about as far away from reality as can be imagined, but the designers seem to go out of their way to induce "rage" playing. They design the slots to seemingly thrive on winding the player up. So many slots get a feature to a point where any sort of win will be a decent to very decent win then promptly spin out with dead spins. Many Book of Dead style games give you a symbol which may as well be Danger High Voltage level of occurance right down to a 10 as they introduce mechanics which promise what it 99% of the time can't deliver.

The overall designs are all based on one hit smashes in amongst 1000's of spins just take, take, take. There are exceptions but these are becoming increasingly difficult to find.

TBH, if I fancy a go I'll stick to slots whcih are slightly more reliable for play time and actually thank UKGC for banning Bonus Buys. When the likes of the absolute filth that is NLC introducing Max win or nothing spins and 3600x max bonus buy on their latest Mining debacle (they really are reprehensible) we are very much better off out of it.

 

[mack341]

If each major slots firm uses their own RNG program, how do they differ from each other or to the generic one you can use on google?

Surely, there has to be a 'best' way of achieving a pseudo random outcome, why isn't there a single program they all use [or is this exactly what they do]?

 

[lockinlove]

The only thing I know in this industry for 100% certain out of all the providers, all the claims all of the...whatever...its Microgaming has been massively tampered with. Massively.

Its quite sad. Some of my funnest memories was playing MG slots on a Saturday night in the viper client. I feel like the odds of getting a 200x hit on MG slots is in the millions now. Millions if not trillions

 

[goatwack]

If each major slots firm uses their own RNG program, how do they differ from each other or to the generic one you can use on google?

Surely, there has to be a 'best' way of achieving a pseudo random outcome, why isn't there a single program they all use [or is this exactly what they do]?

That is the mystery. Coding an approximation of a RNG can't be that difficult, though likely with wildly varying results and effectiveness.

To have one definitive 'standard' in use as opposed to each programmer's whims might aid some of the transparency and fairness element in proceedings!

Software like 'Casino Kid' on the Nintendo Entertainment System from 1989 isn't likely to be the same as a high-stakes multi-million pound modern slot, though principally 'the same'....

One can always spot the hallmark of a BTG RNG however, as theirs removes the high numbers after ten spins

 

[Schind]

though likely with wildly varying results and effectiveness.

I think this is the key. In a truly random world what's to stop the jackpot going three or four times in quick succession? It's unlikely, but possible. Can a casino or games developer afford to take that risk? The top progressive jackpot on Jackpot King has recently gone on Entain. It was around £4.5 to £5 million if I recall. This money has been made up of contributions but the reseed values are either £250,000 or £500,000 so there's a big lump they need to recover before allowing the jackpot to go again. It won't go for months but, in a truly random world, it could again today - twice - and then again tomorrow.
Or look at roulette. Some tables have a human throwing the ball into the wheel. You'd assume that's fair and honest so why is there a need for automated wheels? They still have someone presenting so they're not saving money by employing fewer people but they feel the need to spend God knows how many thousands of pounds extra for an automated wheel with a PRNG.

People and companies can't handle true randomness. I think it was QI who said Apple had to tinker with the iPod as people were complaining the same song was being played twice on the trot when in shuffle mode. Very likely to happen, especially if you only have a few hundred tracks on it.
I still use my iPod - it has around 25,000 tracks on it. In 13 years I don't think I've ever had the same artist appear more than twice on the trot, despite having many hundreds of tracks by some bands. It's impossible for the same song to appear twice in a row now as once a track is played it's removed from the 'pool' until you reset it. Is this how slots are done?

 

[DreamRJ]

100% all the slots have been nerfed - I took a very very long break from gambling and I started again casually but it has now got to the point where I realised that the slots are so much worse now than they used to be they was bad before I quit.

But now they are just a scam 100%. I am also sick of seeing every day loads of new shite cash collect games you know the ones where you need 6 coins to trigger the hold and win etc. There is so many of them now from a variety of different providers and most have them have tiny grand jackpots of only like 500X bet or 1000X bet. And I bet no one has ever even won a grand jackpot on any of the fuckers.

I did not read what everyone said in this thread but I did read the first post so I just felt this was a good thread to let of a rant on.

My observations since I came back to gambling is the amount of dead spins, I mean they ranged from 10-20 before I quit gambling but now I was getting between 20-50 dead spins in a row from many providers slots. This was even on some low volatile slots as well. So for sure they have totally been rigged and nerfed and the RTP I am unsure if it is actually genuine what the slot states it is at in the casinos I have been playing them in. I mean honestly is it even possible that casinos could be doing fishy things? or slot providers faking the true RTP? by listing the rtp at 94% or 96% and the slot is actually set at 87%. Because honestly that is exactly what they feel like when I have been playing them since I came back to gambling.

Last 3 days I had sessions where my deposits lasted 10mins and poof gone poof gone poof gone. depo loss depo loss etc etc rinse repeat. So yeah I am so angry I started playing again I really am. I think I will stop again, Also that slot choice for the upcoming battle weekend at videoslots is also not even worth doing MT4 is going to be dead spin city and RAW, no explanation needed on that scam provider.

Anyway my rant is over for now at least.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think this is the key. In a truly random world what's to stop the jackpot going three or four times in quick succession? It's unlikely, but possible. Can a casino or games developer afford to take that risk? The top progressive jackpot on Jackpot King has recently gone on Entain. It was around £4.5 to £5 million if I recall. This money has been made up of contributions but the reseed values are either £250,000 or £500,000 so there's a big lump they need to recover before allowing the jackpot to go again. It won't go for months but, in a truly random world, it could again today - twice - and then again tomorrow.
Or look at roulette. Some tables have a human throwing the ball into the wheel. You'd assume that's fair and honest so why is there a need for automated wheels? They still have someone presenting so they're not saving money by employing fewer people but they feel the need to spend God knows many thousands of pounds extra for an automated wheel with a PRNG.

People, and companies can't handle true randomness. I think it was QI who said Apple had to tinker with the iPod as people were complaining the same song was being played twice on the trot when in shuffle mode. Very likely to happen, especially if you only have a few hundred tracks on it.
I still use my iPod - it has around 25,000 tracks on it. In 13 years I don't think I've ever had the same artist appear more than twice on the trot, despite having many hundreds of tracks by some bands. It's impossible for the same song to appear twice in a row now as, once a track is played it's removed from the 'pool' until you reset it. Is this how slots are done?

You can account for this in the maths of the slot, the reseed values are incorporated into the RTP, over the full simulation cycle of billions of spins, once you get the number of samples high enough, you can work it all out with long term probability and achieve the expected T-RTP. It can all be done with true, fair randomness.

Now, whether or not all progressives actually work like this is a different question, certainly they could code in a protection system that prevents progressives being paid out back-to-back, for example, and could anyone ever prove it? Nope.....

There's a long-standing myth around computers not being able to generate 'true random' numbers, this is sort of technically true in the driest sense of the word (all down to the algorithm used, seed values and suchlike), and it is also true that in the early days of video poker games in Vegas, some people were able to crack the sequences and work them out, because the limited computing power available at the time made this feasible (i.e the sequences weren't really that long) - but it's been a solved problem for a long long time now, all you need to do is throw a random element into the calculation mix, any kind of externally observable value will do the trick. (A real time clock is an obvious one, that can provide reseeds as often as required.)

In reality however, modern computers are so powerful that even pseudo-random number generation is good enough for the vast majority of applications, and can generate output that is essentially indistinguishable from truly random results.

iPods and other media players (and old physical CD players with a 'random' button) famously had really basic pseudorandom number generation, which was deemed 'good enough' for the task they performed.

 

[frankelvscc]

100% all the slots have been nerfed - I took a very very long break from gambling and I started again casually but it has now got to the point where I realised that the slots are so much worse now than they used to be they was bad before I quit.

But now they are just a scam 100%. I am also sick of seeing every day loads of new shite cash collect games you know the ones where you need 6 coins to trigger the hold and win etc. There is so many of them now from a variety of different providers and most have them have tiny grand jackpots of only like 500X bet or 1000X bet. And I bet no one has ever even won a grand jackpot on any of the fuckers.

I did not read what everyone said in this thread but I did read the first post so I just felt this was a good thread to let of a rant on.

My observations since I came back to gambling is the amount of dead spins, I mean they ranged from 10-20 before I quit gambling but now I was getting between 20-50 dead spins in a row from many providers slots. This was even on some low volatile slots as well. So for sure they have totally been rigged and nerfed and the RTP I am unsure if it is actually genuine what the slot states it is at in the casinos I have been playing them in. I mean honestly is it even possible that casinos could be doing fishy things? or slot providers faking the true RTP? by listing the rtp at 94% or 96% and the slot is actually set at 87%. Because honestly that is exactly what they feel like when I have been playing them since I came back to gambling.

Last 3 days I had sessions where my deposits lasted 10mins and poof gone poof gone poof gone. depo loss depo loss etc etc rinse repeat. So yeah I am so angry I started playing again I really am. I think I will stop again, Also that slot choice for the upcoming battle weekend at videoslots is also not even worth doing MT4 is going to be dead spin city and RAW, no explanation needed on that scam provider.

Anyway my rant is over for now at least.

Of course providers can turn down the RTP anytime they want I believe they can tinker with it however they like. I mean it definitely feels like that sometimes

 

[snorky510238]

100% all the slots have been nerfed - I took a very very long break from gambling and I started again casually but it has now got to the point where I realised that the slots are so much worse now than they used to be they was bad before I quit.

But now they are just a scam 100%. I am also sick of seeing every day loads of new shite cash collect games you know the ones where you need 6 coins to trigger the hold and win etc. There is so many of them now from a variety of different providers and most have them have tiny grand jackpots of only like 500X bet or 1000X bet. And I bet no one has ever even won a grand jackpot on any of the fuckers.

I did not read what everyone said in this thread but I did read the first post so I just felt this was a good thread to let of a rant on.

My observations since I came back to gambling is the amount of dead spins, I mean they ranged from 10-20 before I quit gambling but now I was getting between 20-50 dead spins in a row from many providers slots. This was even on some low volatile slots as well. So for sure they have totally been rigged and nerfed and the RTP I am unsure if it is actually genuine what the slot states it is at in the casinos I have been playing them in. I mean honestly is it even possible that casinos could be doing fishy things? or slot providers faking the true RTP? by listing the rtp at 94% or 96% and the slot is actually set at 87%. Because honestly that is exactly what they feel like when I have been playing them since I came back to gambling.

Last 3 days I had sessions where my deposits lasted 10mins and poof gone poof gone poof gone. depo loss depo loss etc etc rinse repeat. So yeah I am so angry I started playing again I really am. I think I will stop again, Also that slot choice for the upcoming battle weekend at videoslots is also not even worth doing MT4 is going to be dead spin city and RAW, no explanation needed on that scam provider.

Anyway my rant is over for now at least.

This, with gold ribbons!

 

[Schind]

You can account for this in the maths of the slot, the reseed values are incorporated into the RTP, over the full simulation cycle of billions of spins, once you get the number of samples high enough, you can work it all out with long term probability and achieve the expected T-RTP. It can all be done with true, fair randomness.

Now, whether or not all progressives actually work like this is a different question, certainly they could code in a protection system that prevents progressives being paid out back-to-back, for example, and could anyone ever prove it? Nope.....

There's a long-standing myth around computers not being able to generate 'true random' numbers, this is sort of technically true in the driest sense of the word (all down to the algorithm used, seed values and suchlike), and it is also true that in the early days of video poker games in Vegas, some people were able to crack the sequences and work them out, because the limited computing power available at the time made this feasible (i.e the sequences weren't really that long) - but it's been a solved problem for a long long time now, all you need to do is throw a random element into the calculation mix, any kind of externally observable value will do the trick. (A real time clock is an obvious one, that can provide reseeds as often as required.)

In reality however, modern computers are so powerful that even pseudo-random number generation is good enough for the vast majority of applications, and can generate output that is essentially indistinguishable from truly random results.

iPods and other media players (and old physical CD players with a 'random' button) famously had really basic pseudorandom number generation, which was deemed 'good enough' for the task they performed.

But why do you need complex maths?
As most slots are just a collection of scratchcards all you have to do is number each one from one to a million or however many possible results the game has and pick a number. Just like on the ipod.
I get that you need something that's not easily cracked but when I hear things like 'complex mathematical models' then I begin to suspect they're nudging the randomness in their favour or they're pretending something that's actually quite simple is really hard.

 

[Siohmy]

I think this is the key. In a truly random world what's to stop the jackpot going three or four times in quick succession? It's unlikely, but possible. Can a casino or games developer afford to take that risk? The top progressive jackpot on Jackpot King has recently gone on Entain. It was around £4.5 to £5 million if I recall. This money has been made up of contributions but the reseed values are either £250,000 or £500,000 so there's a big lump they need to recover before allowing the jackpot to go again. It won't go for months but, in a truly random world, it could again today - twice - and then again tomorrow.

Well I can’t speak for online jackpots but the Megamillions jackpot in Nevada was won a frankly staggering four times last year. I think that reseeds at $10m, possibly more, and is $3 a spin so that certainly indicates a level of freaky randomness.

 

[jasonuk]

I think this is the key. In a truly random world what's to stop the jackpot going three or four times in quick succession? It's unlikely, but possible. Can a casino or games developer afford to take that risk? The top progressive jackpot on Jackpot King has recently gone on Entain. It was around £4.5 to £5 million if I recall.

And indeed that has happened - Mega Moolah reportedly dropped ten times in the space of six months in 2017, compared to every couple of months. Particularly noteworthy that on two occasions it dropped within hours of the previous hit - apparently paying CAD$1,000,350 and AUD$1,000,727.

And then at the other extreme, there was a period around 2015 where it had a few six month drops - which resulted in the biggest jackpot triggered at £13.2m (since exceeded by €38.5m on Wowpot).

The key part, that is often undisclosed, is how the jackpot operates - is it true random, will it ramp up over time, does it have a must-drop curve? Providers tend to be pretty opaque on this stuff at the best of times, some won't even disclose how the jackpot contributions behave.

More important, the description by the operator doesn't always match the actual operation of the progressive - so a case where the player will be told and/or assume one thing, but the reality can be very different.

 

[jasonuk]

But why do you need complex maths?
As most slots are just a collection of scratchcards all you have to do is number each one from one to a million or however many possible results the game has and pick a number. Just like on the ipod.
I get that you need something that's not easily cracked but when I hear things like 'complex mathematical models' then I begin to suspect they're nudging the randomness in their favour or they're pretending something that's actually quite simple is really hard.

The complex maths would refer to genuine slots - although while there is some mathematics to get your head around, it's more complexity in terms of size (e.g. five reels = five RNG calls = billions of combinations) rather than understanding. Now-a-days that's easy to do on a computer and you can render out your 10 billion game rounds in a few hours, but if you think back 20 or 30 years ago that work would have been more demanding computationally.

If you want to see what goes into one, have a look at some of the old WMS specification sheets - will show you everything from RTP, to reel strips, to win frequencies. It looks scary at first, but most slot players would understand it fairly quickly.

For modern scratchcard games, it could be as few as one RNG call - the complexity there is how to describe the game round in a way that is interesting to the player and doesn't fall afoul of any regulations (which as we've mentioned previously, are sorely lacking because drops are not a real-world equivalent compared to reels).

In regards to RNG, it'll be because you don't want predictable numbers - otherwise you have an

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where people can predict the RNG to such a degree that you can beat the house edge comfortably.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The complex maths would refer to genuine slots - although while there is some mathematics to get your head around, it's more complexity in terms of size (e.g. five reels = five RNG calls = billions of combinations) rather than understanding. Now-a-days that's easy to do on a computer and you can render out your 10 billion game rounds in a few hours, but if you think back 20 or 30 years ago that work would have been more demanding computationally.

If you want to see what goes into one, have a look at some of the old WMS specification sheets - will show you everything from RTP, to reel strips, to win frequencies. It looks scary at first, but most slot players would understand it fairly quickly.

For modern scratchcard games, it could be as few as one RNG call - the complexity there is how to describe the game round in a way that is interesting to the player and doesn't fall afoul of any regulations (which as we've mentioned previously, are sorely lacking because drops are not a real-world equivalent compared to reels).

In regards to RNG, it'll be because you don't want predictable numbers - otherwise you have an

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where people can predict the RNG to such a degree that you can beat the house edge comfortably.

Well that saves me a job as that was basically going to be my reply

I do feel that 'real reels' slot design was far more elegant, and indeed required more effort on the part of the developer, balancing out the reel sets, getting the feature frequency and pay spread correct, and so on. Also of course, it was far more transparent for the player. (There was famously one RTG slot back in the day where you could work out which casinos were running the shitty RTP model of the slot because a premium symbol had been swapped out for a card symbol on one of the reels.)

These scratchcard style games (Jammin' Jars/Reactoonz/etc ad nauseum) honestly just feel cheap to me, like the developer hasn't kept up their side of the bargain in delivering a proper online slot to the player, but we're still expected to pay top whack to play it. It also makes the maths of the games far more opaque and if an unscrupulous developer did want to mess about with them, it'd be super easy for them to do so by just pissing about with the spread of the pool of results.

And whilst games such as Bonanza do technically use proper reels, the sheer length of them, along with the way it can swap them around as and when it wants to, arguably makes it just as bad, if perhaps not worse, than the scratchcard style games, because the player is given no clue that the 'rules of the game' as it were are literally changing right under their feet.

Anyway, coming up to the end of the second month of my online casino free lifestyle. It's nice. I've really been enjoying getting deeply into reading books. Read an entire book in two nights earlier in the week, took me ten hours in two evenings of five hours each, it was great, and it only cost me a tenner. And I can read the book again whenever I want! Try depositing a tenner to play Bonanza and see where it gets you.....

 

[jasonuk]

These scratchcard style games (Jammin' Jars/Reactoonz/etc ad nauseum) honestly just feel cheap to me, like the developer hasn't kept up their side of the bargain in delivering a proper online slot to the player, but we're still expected to pay top whack to play it. It also makes the maths of the games far more opaque and if an unscrupulous developer did want to mess about with them, it'd be super easy for them to do so by just pissing about with the spread of the pool of results.

I think the key problem here is they're so divorced from reality at this point - where the teases are so blatant and so fake that it loses impact because you know it's not going to happen.

The one that still gets me is a scripted and capped game - a reel-based game has a liability limit because mathematically it is possible to have insanely large wins (as in tens of millions of pounds) but the odds are so astronomical (quadrillions to one at maximum stake) that we probably won't see it in the lifetime of slotting.

On the other hand, a scripted game is fully controlled - there are no variables, there are no edge cases... so why does it need to be capped? It almost feels like it's straying into fraud because they know they are advertising wins that they have no intention of paying out - can you imagine the reaction of someone hitting 60000x on one of the Scammin Jars games, and then it goes "oops, 10000x win limit".

As we've discussed before - if people imagine a world without disclosed RTPs, in some cases scratchcard slots can remove one jackpot ball from the bag to adjust the RTP by 1-2%. There is zero chance you'd ever work that out from playing it...

 

[Jono777]

Well that saves me a job as that was basically going to be my reply

I do feel that 'real reels' slot design was far more elegant, and indeed required more effort on the part of the developer, balancing out the reel sets, getting the feature frequency and pay spread correct, and so on. Also of course, it was far more transparent for the player. (There was famously one RTG slot back in the day where you could work out which casinos were running the shitty RTP model of the slot because a premium symbol had been swapped out for a card symbol on one of the reels.)

These scratchcard style games (Jammin' Jars/Reactoonz/etc ad nauseum) honestly just feel cheap to me, like the developer hasn't kept up their side of the bargain in delivering a proper online slot to the player, but we're still expected to pay top whack to play it. It also makes the maths of the games far more opaque and if an unscrupulous developer did want to mess about with them, it'd be super easy for them to do so by just pissing about with the spread of the pool of results.

And whilst games such as Bonanza do technically use proper reels, the sheer length of them, along with the way it can swap them around as and when it wants to, arguably makes it just as bad, if perhaps not worse, than the scratchcard style games, because the player is given no clue that the 'rules of the game' as it were are literally changing right under their feet.

Anyway, coming up to the end of the second month of my online casino free lifestyle. It's nice. I've really been enjoying getting deeply into reading books. Read an entire book in two nights earlier in the week, took me ten hours in two evenings of five hours each, it was great, and it only cost me a tenner. And I can read the book again whenever I want! Try depositing a tenner to play Bonanza and see where it gets you.....

I have to politely disagree with this. I believe (and think I read somewhere a while back on here) they are randomly (*cough*) generated each spin.

You mention they are long, yes indeed if all the different combinations along with all the different Megaways were created into a reel strip, they would comfortably wrap around the planet, several times.

PS: Don't start a sentence with "And" - We wouldn't want to take the shine of our forum achievement now would we?