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Random my ****

Well just did a bonus buy for £750 and it paid £28.95 so you might not want to play it after all LOL I didn't say it wasn't brutal at times because it is!

TRTP is 96.03%
Current = 91.63%

Think bonanza had a baby with a hacksaw :)

Edit: Just hit a base hit on a max

View attachment 193944
Don’t let BTG see that. They might have a heart attack before they realise it wasn’t their liability.
 
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TBH in testing its hit way higher, but its currently capped to 5000x anyway

But since that pic its took a bad turn :( current is now 87.19% over 1000 spins no bonus the sod of course while on £5 stake typical rigged to f**k ! obviously!
 
TBH in testing its hit way higher, but its currently capped to 5000x anyway

But since that pic its took a bad turn :( current is now 87.19% over 1000 spins no bonus the sod of course while on £5 stake typical rigged to f**k ! obviously!

Note to self don't reduce bet after a shit run because this crap happens, glad its not real as that would have been a new laptop moment!

Unreal !

Tens.webp


Anyway enough of this derailing, continue your discussion...... random my arse think your on to something!
 
Note to self don't reduce bet after a shit run because this crap happens, glad its not real as that would have been a new laptop moment!

Unreal !

View attachment 193945

Anyway enough of this derailing, continue your discussion...... random my arse think your on to something!
Wow, that’s amazing! I haven’t seen at hit like that on Bonanza in 7 years. Never will either!
 
Wow, that’s amazing! I haven’t seen at hit like that on Bonanza in 7 years. Never will either!

This is the thing that pisses me off the most.

Reels of Fun game would make money for the "house" even with hits like the screenshots he has shown us, along with keeping players playing, stop the naysayers and generally give bang for our buck most sessions.

Bonanza which this game is heavily based on, along with a similar RTP (lololololol) does nothing like this, not even close, never has and these days most certainly never will.

Its all down to seeing a popular product and thinking "Ah, we can make a lot more out of this" IE: GREED! - Fuck customer satisfaction and retention, lets just rely on the addictive nature of most gamblers.
 
Reel sizes are weighted - you've made the mistake of thinking that reel height of the six reels is randomly decided, per reel, per spin. The result is simply eye candy, you can get a zero result on the game and any number of ways to represent it from 324 to 117649. Same with a 32x win. The number of ways displayed is almost irrelevant, the win result including any tumbles is already selected. Look how many spins on max ways 'fail' to tumble after any initial win, yet you get these stoooopid spins of say 1440 ways whereby you get about 5 or 6 winning tumbles because the single symbols necessary are all conveniently lined up for you both on the top scroll and tumbles above visible reel columns.
If you think Bonanza, or the vast majority of Megaways games for that matter, is picking the result first and then choosing how to display it, then you're very much mistaken. It would be more difficult to develop the game like that, and it would be even more atrocious to play. You have, with the greatest respect, a very rudimentary and often cynical perception of how slots are put together server-side.

On each spin I think you'll find that the number of ways is randomly determined first, for example either by selecting the 'height' of each reel window (and therefore the number of symbols that will be show inside it), or by choosing one of a number of reel array combinations from a table - 233332, 333332... miss a few out to reduce the permutations... 777777.

Then it is likely that one of a number of different reelsets is chosen for the spin, again from a weighted table, depending on the number of ways in the spin. This is why you often don't win much from a 'max ways' spin - the game is selecting a low-paying reelset a lot of the time, otherwise you'd probably get 40 cascades every time that number of ways is selected.

Of course it's going to use a more generous reelset when the reels are 324 ways for example - otherwise you'll only ever get base game wins when a high number of ways is chosen and it will play like shit. You don't want the hit rate per spin to be too heavily-reliant on the number of ways chosen - it's all about making the game play nice.
 
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Note to self don't reduce bet after a shit run because this crap happens, glad its not real as that would have been a new laptop moment!

Unreal !
That would be under the assumption that the reels are going to land regardless of bet amount… Too many times I’m getting a thumping in the woodshed and the moment I lower the bet suddenly amazing things start to happen. Conversely raising the bet when I feel I’m on a hot streak just to see the game turn into Mr. Hyde is more than frequent or coincidence in my humble opinion.
 
Of course it's going to use a more generous reelset when the reels are 324 ways for example - otherwise you'll only ever get base game wins when a high number of ways is chosen and it will play like shit. You don't want the hit rate per spin to be too heavily-reliant on the number of ways chosen - it's all about making the game play nice.
It's also a clever - if potentially deceptive - way of playing into the "just missed" scenario (perhaps not for Bonanza, but for other games that flash the next symbol) - if only the reel had been one higher... even though a larger array may have used a different reelset entirely and thus may or may not be possible.
 
That would be under the assumption that the reels are going to land regardless of bet amount… Too many times I’m getting a thumping in the woodshed and the moment I lower the bet suddenly amazing things start to happen. Conversely raising the bet when I feel I’m on a hot streak just to see the game turn into Mr. Hyde is more than frequent or coincidence in my humble opinion.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, put it into numbers - if you're playing streamer slots, the sample size is going to be so astronomically small as to be meaningless. In which case you just have an emotional take on the situation - which is what you've presented above.

At the moment this thread is trending in two directions
  • The analytical side - true random v weighted random, true odds vs scratchcard mechanics
  • The emotional side - people making assertions based on little or insufficient data.
Do I think modern slotting is on the level? At this stage, no... but people need to come at it with more than anecdotes and conspiracy theories.
 
As mentioned earlier in the thread, put it into numbers - if you're playing streamer slots, the sample size is going to be so astronomically small as to be meaningless. In which case you just have an emotional take on the situation - which is what you've presented above.

At the moment this thread is trending in two directions
  • The analytical side - true random v weighted random, true odds vs scratchcard mechanics
  • The emotional side - people making assertions based on little or insufficient data.
Do I think modern slotting is on the level? At this stage, no... but people need to come at it with more than anecdotes and conspiracy theories.
Im pretty sure Trance (may have been reels of fun) confirmed that changing the math model depending on what betsize is used is allowed, and the real sneaky part is that as long as the rtp remain unchanged you dont even have to tell the player that its happening.

So you could if you wanted to make those 1000x+ hits much more rare on say £2+ betsizes to avoid having to make big payouts when highrollers get lucky.
Put them on a math model that slowly churns away at their balance with minimal risk of them hitting a big win instead.

The lack of transparency makes it impossible to say for sure if a slot is doing that or not.
That its legal to even do it kind of shows how much the odds (and rules) are stacked against the player.
 
In case anyone doesn't know, here is what the UKGC requires of providers.

RTS aim 7: To ensure that games and other virtual events operate fairly.

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: Random number generation and game results must be ‘acceptably random’. Acceptably random here means that it is possible to demonstrate to a high degree of confidence that the output of the RNG, game, lottery and virtual event outcomes are random through, for example, statistical analysis using generally accepted tests and methods of analysis. Adaptive behaviour (that is, a compensated game) is not permitted.
 
Im pretty sure Trance (may have been reels of fun) confirmed that changing the math model depending on what betsize is used is allowed, and the real sneaky part is that as long as the rtp remain unchanged you dont even have to tell the player that its happening.
I wonder if that is where the "denomination" trick in the US comes from - because those appear to be the same game but often behave differently. I would expect there to be a delimiter somewhere (whether it be game rules, a pre-selection of high/low stake) otherwise it would risk falling foul of regulations.

They certainly exist though - one of the later Barcrest/WMS "innovations" was two-tier RTPs, where you only got the full-fat 96% RTP at £2+ bets, otherwise you got 94%.

In the case of the poster, I did have a look at their other contributions being a new member and there was a lot of conspiracy talk - so I'm inclined to believe they are angling for that rather than your accurately described edge case.
 
In case anyone doesn't know, here is what the UKGC requires of providers.

RTS aim 7: To ensure that games and other virtual events operate fairly.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
: Random number generation and game results must be ‘acceptably random’. Acceptably random here means that it is possible to demonstrate to a high degree of confidence that the output of the RNG, game, lottery and virtual event outcomes are random through, for example, statistical analysis using generally accepted tests and methods of analysis. Adaptive behaviour (that is, a compensated game) is not permitted.

The whole of section 7 is a good read, and particularly relevant to this discussion (a number of my previous observations relate to it)

In short:
  • 7A - the random number generator must be "acceptably random" - not compensated, uniformly distributed, unpredictable.
    • It clarifies that this does not exclude bonus or special features, as long as they are similarly based on random events.
    • Remember, this only applies to the source of randomness, not the whole game - it is not requiring the game mechanics to be "true random".
  • 7B - games should implement their game rules as described. *cough* Scammin' Jars *cough*
  • 7C - games should not mislead customers about the likelihood of results occurring (the "real devices" principle).
    • This is the primary reason to move away from reels to drops - reels are heavily regulated, drops are not. Perhaps this one needs a booster given the amount of bullshit going on now-a-days.
  • 7D - Rules and payouts should not change while it is available for gambling, except as permitted in the rules. Any changes must be clearly advertised.
  • 7E - Any game result should be displayed for a sufficient amount of time.
 
If you think Bonanza, or the vast majority of Megaways games for that matter, is picking the result first and then choosing how to display it, then you're very much mistaken. It would be more difficult to develop the game like that, and it would be even more atrocious to play. You have, with the greatest respect, a very rudimentary and often cynical perception of how slots are put together server-side.

On each spin I think you'll find that the number of ways is randomly determined first, for example either by selecting the 'height' of each reel window (and therefore the number of symbols that will be show inside it), or by choosing one of a number of reel array combinations from a table - 233332, 333332... miss a few out to reduce the permutations... 777777.

Then it is likely that one of a number of different reelsets is chosen for the spin, again from a weighted table, depending on the number of ways in the spin. This is why you often don't win much from a 'max ways' spin - the game is selecting a low-paying reelset a lot of the time, otherwise you'd probably get 40 cascades every time that number of ways is selected.

Of course it's going to use a more generous reelset when the reels are 324 ways for example - otherwise you'll only ever get base game wins when a high number of ways is chosen and it will play like shit. You don't want the hit rate per spin to be too heavily-reliant on the number of ways chosen - it's all about making the game play nice.
I think you misunderstood me there. The pool of results as we know has many similar amounts, a favourite is 1.2x bet for example, a very common win on Bonanza as is say 0.1x for the 3@9s on one way. Of course the most common result is zero. I am suggesting that the result or spin yield is single entity attached to x amount of ways it will be displayed in according to the reel set. In other words it's a single RNG pull. As for eliminating some reel height permutations, I'm not sure it does. Once I had 100,842-ways, i.e. one symbol short of max ways. Exceedingly rare, only ever had it once in 7 years. I will say though that those combinations in excess of 60k ways are very seldom seen, but they're certainly there.

Another thing I've noticed is that in the base game the reel sets are consistent and don't appear to vary. I would say they are pretty long reels in terms of positions too, considering you can get 10 or 11 consecutive queens or other royals on them. Any weighting would occur in the pattern and construct of the reel strips which is why the same win amount can be produced by countless reel combinations/positions so the chances of getting say a thousand or more ways of a royal are vanishingly small.

As for the max MW spin, I would dispute your 'likely' suggestion because otherwise 40 tumbles would occur. Think about it - the art, the whole construct of the MW formula is the large and very clever reel strips. You don't need 'weighting' in the way you suggest. We already have evidence of this on other BTG MW slots, where for example on MAX Megaways slot there is paucity of Queens on reel 1, Kings on reel 2 etc. therefore ensuring certain vast combinations of ways pertaining to a single symbol are next to impossible on a random basis - without any ways weighting. Another classic is the Rasputin game and Royal Mint where when I posted the intro videos before release, the comments and observations were cynical regarding the visually frustrating and very obvious prevalence of stacks of any particular symbol type on alternate reels.

Your comment regarding the 40 tumbles made me laugh because it had me thinking of the Thor free games round on Thunderstruck 2 where on about every tenth feature, the reel symbols would line up resulting in about 10 consecutive wins at 5x; you had hit the 'special' bonus lol. The reels trips on Bonanza for example would simply not allow that to happen.

I would love to see a genuine reel map for Bonanza, in fact I wonder if it's worth me trying to make one by playing it and putting the jigsaw together to see if my theory (same as your logic, I merely think it's 'likely' rather than knowing for sure) holds water.

Finally, it's worth considering the fact you can get a straight-in win of 4.8x on a poxy 1080-way spin with no winning tumble after removal, the rest being dross. The exact same win can occur on the max MW spin, just with far more dross in the picture. The real art of MW is that you can get a flat single-hit as just described, or the same win total but on more ways, this time constructed from 2 or 3 separate wins via tumbles. Megaways is just a visual illusion, almost a tautology in slotting terms.
 
As mentioned earlier in the thread, put it into numbers - if you're playing streamer slots, the sample size is going to be so astronomically small as to be meaningless. In which case you just have an emotional take on the situation - which is what you've presented above.
How would you suggest going about minus the emotion and able to present it analytically?
 
I am guessing some of it has to do with the intellectual property of the slot design. If you for example take the megaways engine that was designed by BTG, why would they make the math model behind it available for all to use, when it can easily be marketed and sold?
I half agree, but isnt it mostly the name that other providers are paying for?
There are already what is essentially clones of the Megaways mechanic out there, but they obviously go by other names since they dont have the license to use the Megaways name.

Even if full transparency would be too tricky to pull off, im sure there could be a lot more than we see today without it impacting things such as copyrights.
 
Also, and slightly at the risk of stating the obvious here, but as players we all have the ultimate decision to choose to play, or not to play, to deposit, or not to deposit. If you think the shenanigans that online casinos are getting up to (evidenced or otherwise) is getting beyond what you're prepared to tolerate, you have the option to walk away.

I don't even remotely buy into any of the more..... ahem.... 'imaginative' theories as to some of the dark skulduggery that's allegedly going on in the world of online slots, however there's enough going on that's absolutely and irrefutably the case (discussed already at length in this thread) that's tipped me over into walking away.

Even 3Dice, which never put a foot wrong as a casino, I made the decision to call it a day with, thanks to the increasing faff and expense of crypto, and if I'm entirely honest, a string of uninspiring new cluster game releases (and a clone of a not brilliant old PnG game called Fire Joker, at a lower RTP!), that I wasn't remotely inclined to play after an initial session or two. Yes their old classics like Enchanted Spins, Arctic Adventure, Berrini's Fortune etc were still on the books there - but how long are you supposed to plug away at games that are a decade old or more with no indication whatsoever that those glory days will ever return?

(And Kyoko's Quest never did get a re-release on the new platform, I wonder if the people who knew how to make the 3D style games left 3Dice or something, because it just didn't seem to be used on any of their new releases - we had flying 3D pigs in Medieval Moolah over a decade ago for god's sake, and now we have low effort 95% clones of crappy PnG slots.)

As for the 'mainstream' casinos, I'd made my peace with playing at VS again, despite their past scummy behaviour over RTP nerfing (and general destruction of bonuses, perks and so on), and whilst this did require careful checking of the RTPs before playing any games, I put up with it. However when they nerfed Double Fancy 7s right underneath my feet (after the game had been live for years at 97%, but once mentioned here at CM in a thread that I saw the VS rep reading, the game was coincidentally nerfed down to 94.xx%.....) - something just clicked over inside me and I thought, 'You know what, I just can't be bothered with this shit anymore'.

Other pastimes are available, read a book, play a videogame, watch something on the telly, go for a walk, if you think online casinos are diddling you, and/or just aren't fun anymore, you can stop giving them your money any time you choose.
 
How would you suggest going about minus the emotion and able to present it analytically?
I don't want to rehash the topic in full (because that's the premise of the thread, and we're already on 7 pages), but ideally you would be looking for data-driven analysis ("the numbers"):
  • Does something deviate from its own game rules?
  • For a suitable sample size, does a mechanic behave in the way it should?
    • e.g. for a reel based slot - does each reel have a equal(-ish) distribution of stops?
    • e.g. for scatters - do you have a meaningful ratio of on-screen to off-screen scatters (e.g. 3 to 2, 4 to 2) for a given reel
Even with the data, operators and providers alike are quick to hide behind "not enough sample size" or "just unlucky". Or from other threads around this topic, the regulations don't necessarily regulate providers and game design in the way you expect them to be - e.g. lying non-selected pie gambles on FOBTs.

The additional problem is scratch card slots (of which there are many, and include most modern releases) - you only have one thing that you can verify, and that is the balls in the bag (and potentially a single RNG call). To be able to verify the contents of the bag you either need to look (audit), or you need a suitable sample size which is a substantial multiplier of the size of the bag - which is billions of spins.

As chop says above, if it doesn't look or feel right then stop giving them your money.
 
It's perfectly normal to have other pastimes whilst gambling, it's not a revolutionary concept, nor mutually exclusive.

It's also perfectly acceptable to query the fairness and transparency of any product, whether it be before, during, or post-use....gambling isn't beyond criticism or analyses.

Citing balls in a bag or billions of spins, before neatly tying it in a bow by telling people not to give them any more money, doesn't invalidate their products' misrepresentation or sub-par results. This wouldn't fly in any other industry of course, yet here it's a given!

...and still, no explanation as to the peculiar goings-on with slot behaviours in old and new games alike :laugh:

"Don't ask questions. Consume product. Get excited for new product"

Only question remains: shill-bot infestation, or just Stockholm Syndrome? ?
 
I would love to see a genuine reel map for Bonanza, in fact I wonder if it's worth me trying to make one by playing it and putting the jigsaw together to see if my theory (same as your logic, I merely think it's 'likely' rather than knowing for sure) holds water.
Haha I like your optimism but that would take you forever and would almost certainly contain errors.

Im with @Lemon on this one, I’m 99% sure bonanza does not work in the way you describe.

Im sure they were posted here before, ( the reel story? ) I have/had them somewhere but from memory bonanza used 7 reel sets, 3 for base game, 3 for bonus in bonus eg no scatters and 1 set exclusive for the MW spin. It think a member here extracted them from the network traffic of the game.

I did do some basic analysis at the time, one of the sets seemed to struggle to award bigger than 3 or 4 OAK etc so it’s plausible that, that set is used on possibly the bigger ways spins where you need 5 and 6 OAK wins to be harder on higher ways or maybe just any size board it just produces mostly 3 or 4OAK wins, I didn’t dig into it.

I would expect each set would be weighted to each scenario eg one of the 3 bonus spin sets would be more likely after the multiplier hits a certain point, which also fits with the behaviour people notice. Eg harder to get a win or only small 3/4 OAK wins, see above. It could just as easily have one set for each multiplier band, eg set 1 from 1x to 8x set 2 9x to 15x set 3 16x upwards….. anything is possible.

Back to the 1 set for the MW, which some people might think well I doubt it just has one, well its possible it could use more than one but from a design point of view it’s easier to use one to calculate RTP and the fact that one board has over 30 trillion different ways it can land, 1 set is probably enough LOL

We will never truly know all the workings of bonanza, but we certainly have enough info to fairly easily rule out the way you described it works out.
 
It's perfectly normal to have other pastimes whilst gambling, it's not a revolutionary concept, nor mutually exclusive.

It's also perfectly acceptable to query the fairness and transparency of any product, whether it be before, during, or post-use....gambling isn't beyond criticism or analyses.

Citing balls in a bag or billions of spins, before neatly tying it in a bow by telling people not to give them any more money, doesn't invalidate their products' misrepresentation or sub-par results. This wouldn't fly in any other industry of course, yet here it's a given!

...and still, no explanation as to the peculiar goings-on with slot behaviours in old and new games alike :laugh:

"Don't ask questions. Consume product. Get excited for new product"

Only question remains: shill-bot infestation, or just Stockholm Syndrome? ?

I broadly agree with you, it's always a good idea to remain inquisitive and ask questions about stuff, be it online slots or anything else. What I was getting at is the sense of grinding misery with the pursuit that some folks are conveying, (snorky has compared it to various forms of what would literally be described as torture), whilst also continuing to invest their own money and time into said pursuit.

I get it, gambling can be very addictive and moreish (there are five 'Gambling Low Ebbs' videos on my YT channel, I've been there and got the t-shirt), and therefore perhaps sometimes the most rational of thought processes might not prevail.

One thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on is that online slots have gone down the shitter (for whatever reasons), and we're never going to get to the full truth behind how a lot these games work, all I'm throwing into the mix is the notion that there's no obligation on our part to continue to play these things, and that throwing the proverbial good money after bad probably won't end well.

It's already a mathematical certainty that the player will lose, on average, ~5% of their stake every single time they press the SPIN button, if the games aren't at least delivering entertainment in a fashion that feels fair and above board as part of that transaction, then the smart thing to do, surely, is not do it any more?
 
I broadly agree with you, it's always a good idea to remain inquisitive and ask questions about stuff, be it online slots or anything else. What I was getting at is the sense of grinding misery with the pursuit that some folks are conveying, (snorky has compared it to various forms of what would literally be described as torture), whilst also continuing to invest their own money and time into said pursuit.

I get it, gambling can be very addictive and moreish (there are five 'Gambling Low Ebbs' videos on my YT channel, I've been there and got the t-shirt), and therefore perhaps sometimes the most rational of thought processes might not prevail.

One thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on is that online slots have gone down the shitter (for whatever reasons), and we're never going to get to the full truth behind how a lot these games work, all I'm throwing into the mix is the notion that there's no obligation on our part to continue to play these things, and that throwing the proverbial good money after bad probably won't end well.

It's already a mathematical certainty that the player will lose, on average, ~5% of their stake every single time they press the SPIN button, if the games aren't at least delivering entertainment in a fashion that feels fair and above board as part of that transaction, then the smart thing to do, surely, is not do it any more?
I'd imagine the cessation of gambling varies per person, as does their threshold towards sadomasochism in pursuit of getting what they had before.

When it's implicitly stated that slot fortune corrects itself based on math, then it's only fair to assume many will read that as fact, and put that to the test.

Throw in the addiction factor, like with many vices, simply breaking off from it is easier said than done, especially when it's become routine.

With smoking, most would be aware of its harms. Tar, nicotine et al, with some cyanide thrown in for good measure. People can read what's in their poison of choice when drinking. Even simple products like video games are often sold in an unfinished state, only to be 'fleshed out' over the following years, but even then, consumers can rest easy as it becomes the complete package (Cyberpunk).

So the real question ought to be: why are casino software developers allowed to release cloaked products with impunity, rather than critiquing consumers' struggles with said product? I've always maintained if something's bad for you, stop doing it, and we've all had a hearty moan about bad sessions, stretching back years.....but this transcends that by far, and companies' saying it's just variance, or bad luck, or been tested over billions of spins means very little if the end-product's a tad shonky.

But I will agree that neither 'side' will ever know the full truth of how these slots work, with people choosing to believe the bits they're given. And that's fine too :cool:
 
My main gripe is that as a customer, I am not getting the goods that I have paid for.

I used to get that, in the main. My gripe is that the product has been changed without myself being informed. In short, it’s a bloody ripoff. In pretty much every other walk of life, I would have legal rights and in the majority of cases, there are systems in place to protect me.

Consumer protection, fair trading standards, This is in place to protect the customer, to see that you are getting what you paid for.

My gripe is that no governing body worth a shite is overseeing this abomination of which is nothing short of theft. This industry is a law unto itself and always has been. It’s not about the money, it’s about the product I have paid for not being fit for purpose and this industry right now and the supposed governing bodies both fit right in at no 1 in that category.

We have supposedly upstanding people such as politicians, of which some aren’t happy with the enormous salary they get so pull flankers to make it even sweeter.

Some judges, who sit there and sentence others whilst having committed far worse themselves.

The police who are supposedly there to protect the public but use and abuse their privileges far too often.

So you can’t for a second, expect to tell me that an industry that in its very nature is immoral and unethical, is going to be squeaky bloody clean.
 
My main gripe is that as a customer, I am not getting the goods that I have paid for.

I used to get that, in the main. My gripe is that the product has been changed without myself being informed. In short, it’s a bloody ripoff. In pretty much every other walk of life, I would have legal rights and in the majority of cases, there are systems in place to protect me.

Consumer protection, fair trading standards, This is in place to protect the customer, to see that you are getting what you paid for.

My gripe is that no governing body worth a shite is overseeing this abomination of which is nothing short of theft. This industry is a law unto itself and always has been. It’s not about the money, it’s about the product I have paid for not being fit for purpose and this industry right now and the supposed governing bodies both fit right in at no 1 in that category.

We have supposedly upstanding people such as politicians, of which some aren’t happy with the enormous salary they get so pull flankers to make it even sweeter.

Some judges, who sit there and sentence others whilst having committed far worse themselves.

The police who are supposedly there to protect the public but use and abuse their privileges far too often.

So you can’t for a second, expect to tell me that an industry that in its very nature is immoral and unethical, is going to be squeaky bloody clean.
Oh this industry is tainted alright. You need not look far.

A short trip to most Curacao casinos and a little investigation into some of the people and networks owning theses entities will make you shudder. 60 to 80% of these casinos and their owners are laundering money - quite literally.

The regulatory bodies are an absolute joke. They are more concerned in punishing the very people they were meant to protect.

They enable their licencees to steal from both Players and Partners (affiliates). In which world is this normalised and accepted? ONLY the gambling industry...

These useless mugs arm casinos with tools to legitimise not paying winning players. Players have no recourse.The scary part is that the real criminals are in plain sight. Sources of wealth actually need to be conducted with Casinos and providers. The criminals are there, not in the form of a 10p a spin slot player.

It's a circus out there. It really is. Anyone who thinks the industry is clean and above board needs a reality check.
 
Gambling's always been a money- laundering utopia, has it not? It's been the first port of call for criminal enterprise, and I doubt governments and regulators have let this fact slip them by. All the more baffling then that gamblers are being scrutinised this way based on flimsy pretexts, when seemingly managing just fine before.

Corruption's always been rife, and anyone of the belief that regulators' punishing players with SoW, bet limits and monthly £200 gambling caps is for the betterment of gamblers, or to make gambling 'safer', ought to really give their head a wobble!

I don't think modern slot design is particularly in touch with actual slotters, having given up the ghost in regards to adhering to any 'big' jurisdiction. Games 'design' is becoming more brazen in its disregard to transparency, with games almost becoming tailored towards the 'less stringent' operators, where bonus buys abound, mood ring RTPs on rotation and with customer care but a myth.

Like I opined previously, I don't believe some of these modern games are anything but actual money-laundering software, even if not just for the user themselves, but for the 'operators' in question. But then, if one slaps an arbitrary RTP percentage on it and releases it, it must be legit......right? :D

You can be sure then that those propelling users to find solace in funky offshore jurisdictions are the ones set to gain most from it, and the evidence towards a concerted effort to ruin UK gambling is becoming clearer by the day. It ain't no accident :cool:
 
Oh this industry is tainted alright. You need not look far.

A short trip to most Curacao casinos and a little investigation into some of the people and networks owning theses entities will make you shudder. 60 to 80% of these casinos and their owners are laundering money - quite literally.

The regulatory bodies are an absolute joke. They are more concerned in punishing the very people they were meant to protect.

Corruption's always been rife, and anyone of the belief that regulators' punishing players with SoW, bet limits and monthly £200 gambling caps is for the betterment of gamblers, or to make gambling 'safer', ought to really give their head a wobble!

Which is weird because AML is often used as the argument (rightly or wrongly - some providers are absolutely taking the piss in this regard) for CDD and EDD checks. But as we know, the AML legislation applies to all parties - which would include:
  • Crypto Exchanges - why some exchanges actively block accounts sending money to casinos, they want plausible deniability (they gave you the crypto, it's your problem now)
  • Customers - we already get screwed with endless CDD+ requests
  • Operators
  • Providers - this is the big question mark, we know the smaller / less honest providers can be more than willing to facilitate shady acts - but almost every provider is available now in Curacao. When many of these are based in highly-regulated jurisdictions, it's incredible that everyone turns a blind eye to it (provider greed + regulators asleep).
And of course, some of the rogue operators are now big enough they can start to "legitimise" their dishonesty through sponsorships of sports teams and other marketing.
 
Which is weird because AML is often used as the argument (rightly or wrongly - some providers are absolutely taking the piss in this regard) for CDD and EDD checks. But as we know, the AML legislation applies to all parties - which would include:
  • Crypto Exchanges - why some exchanges actively block accounts sending money to casinos, they want plausible deniability (they gave you the crypto, it's your problem now)
  • Customers - we already get screwed with endless CDD+ requests
  • Operators
  • Providers - this is the big question mark, we know the smaller / less honest providers can be more than willing to facilitate shady acts - but almost every provider is available now in Curacao. When many of these are based in highly-regulated jurisdictions, it's incredible that everyone turns a blind eye to it (provider greed + regulators asleep).
And of course, some of the rogue operators are now big enough they can start to "legitimise" their dishonesty through sponsorships of sports teams and other marketing.
The providers who now supply Cup-o-cocoa sites were forced into it (aside from dodgy ones like Betsoft) by the endless supply of fake games from which they got no revenues. So better to deal with the devil and make a cut than ignore him and see his mates make money from your creations.
 
Which is weird because AML is often used as the argument (rightly or wrongly - some providers are absolutely taking the piss in this regard) for CDD and EDD checks. But as we know, the AML legislation applies to all parties - which would include:
  • Crypto Exchanges - why some exchanges actively block accounts sending money to casinos, they want plausible deniability (they gave you the crypto, it's your problem now)
  • Customers - we already get screwed with endless CDD+ requests
  • Operators
  • Providers - this is the big question mark, we know the smaller / less honest providers can be more than willing to facilitate shady acts - but almost every provider is available now in Curacao. When many of these are based in highly-regulated jurisdictions, it's incredible that everyone turns a blind eye to it (provider greed + regulators asleep).
And of course, some of the rogue operators are now big enough they can start to "legitimise" their dishonesty through sponsorships of sports teams and other marketing.
Who is conducting checks on Operators and Providers? How deep does it actually go. Let's assume it's a Task at the UKGC for a small specialised team.

Do they police their licencees to ensure they are not engaging in illegal activity once a licence is granted? Illegal activity like withholding player funds without just cause or retroactively changing terms to steal income from partners?

No court would rule it was legal for them to retroactively change terms in order to with hold money from partners. It's Fraud... and on a f**cking massive scale. Stealing MILLIONS right under the nose of the UKGC.

The UKGC doesn't care that their licencees like Kindred, Paddypower, Boylesports and Sky Vegas are thieving under their noses. Their continued suitability means nothing, unless they can benefit.

Only where they are able to levy fines to line their own pockets, is the cause for them to act justified.

The sad reality is that rogue operators and groups like Kindred Et al. actually pay the UKGC with ill gotten gains, stolen from players and partners alike.

Just like politics, those on top line their pockets to the detriment of the general population. All masquerading as champions of the people. Nothing different here.
 
Just like politics, those on top line their pockets to the detriment of the general population. All masquerading as champions of the people. Nothing different here.
Fully agree, another example that is somewhat more blatant is the KSA (Netherlands).

For years, they were fighting casinos in EU courts because they operated "without a licence" (and the KSA repeatedly got their backside handed to them).

They finally decide they want to implement a regulated market - and immediately start using it as a protection racket to attack the sites that have "wronged" them in the past (despite not breaking EU law), and indeed many of them pay the fines not because they've done anything wrong, but because they want to operate in the new market.

Two years later, they have issued just 15 more permits (25 in total), GGR is already plateauing (€1.3bn GGR/year), and they are continuing their crusade against other EU-based casinos, such as the absurd €9.8m fine levied against Videoslots last year because the KSA signed up using a VPN...

Meanwhile, players are having some alarming issues with getting their complaints resolved. So naturally the KSA step in right? Nope... they've got their gravy train, job done. ?
 
To be fair that's because the chance of each reel landing in a position and reel height needed to deliver said ways of diamonds could be billions or trillions to 1 so its not unreasonable for it to

a) not happened yet
b) not going to happen in our lifetimes
c) not happened to someone that's actually a member here
d) happened but wasn't caught on camera, or by anyone here
e) the list goes on

Just saying

Its like the pic i posted on here months ago of the sim of the game i coded ( bonanza ish clone ) on here where it hit a massive win, 6 months later of me running millions of spins its still not hit anything close.

I might let a few members here have a copy of it if they want to play around with it, anyone can PM me if interested.

You really do not seem to grasp just how rare some events are going to be on these types of games.

That's not right. BTG themselves say the max win is 26,000x.
It's not possible for there to be a winning line with more than 520 ways of diamonds in the base game unless they're lying but why would they lie and say the max win is lower than it really is?
As for the bonus - well, for a start how can they advertise 'unlimited multiplier' whilst having a set max win? If they were in the UK that's be a case for the ASA. Besides that, say you're on a multiplier of 20 in the bonus, that means you can't have more than 26 ways of diamonds without breaking the max win on that one spin alone.
 
That's not right. BTG themselves say the max win is 26,000x.
It's not possible for there to be a winning line with more than 520 ways of diamonds in the base game unless they're lying but why would they lie and say the max win is lower than it really is?
As for the bonus - well, for a start how can they advertise 'unlimited multiplier' whilst having a set max win? If they were in the UK that's be a case for the ASA. Besides that, say you're on a multiplier of 20 in the bonus, that means you can't have more than 26 ways of diamonds without breaking the max win on that one spin alone.

Be careful of terminology, "maximum win" in that sense only applies to scratchcard-style slots or capped (multiplier) slots. Bonanza is neither of those so will state a maximum liability (set by the casino, e.g. £250k/€1m, and heavily influenced by the maximum stake offered), possibly a guidance "win up to" value (which sites often misquote as "max win"), and then the maximum observed multiplier in testing.

In the case of BTG, the game space is going to be astronomical - multiple reelsets, long reel strips, the interconnected top box and so on. So even doing 10 billion spins (for certification) will give you a guide of what the biggest win could be, but is not actually the maximum. Similarly, given the complex design of BTG slots - it's possible that where you expect the biggest pays to be and where the biggest pays actually are can be two different things.

Funny enough, one of the long-running discussions on CM has been how the potential of megaways has been significantly overstated, and the monster pays from BTG slots tend to come from the Danger High Voltage stable. In the case of Lil Devil, the stated "win up to" was 50,000x based on their test data, but there's a confirmed 105,000x win out there in the wild.
 
Who is conducting checks on Operators and Providers? How deep does it actually go. Let's assume it's a Task at the UKGC for a small specialised team.

Do they police their licencees to ensure they are not engaging in illegal activity once a licence is granted? Illegal activity like withholding player funds without just cause or retroactively changing terms to steal income from partners?

No court would rule it was legal for them to retroactively change terms in order to with hold money from partners. It's Fraud... and on a f**cking massive scale. Stealing MILLIONS right under the nose of the UKGC.

The UKGC doesn't care that their licencees like Kindred, Paddypower, Boylesports and Sky Vegas are thieving under their noses. Their continued suitability means nothing, unless they can benefit.

Only where they are able to levy fines to line their own pockets, is the cause for them to act justified.

The sad reality is that rogue operators and groups like Kindred Et al. actually pay the UKGC with ill gotten gains, stolen from players and partners alike.

Just like politics, those on top line their pockets to the detriment of the general population. All masquerading as champions of the people. Nothing different here.
Skybet they refusing to pay this guy after he won the court
Screenshot 2024-03-01 at 11.21.22.webp
 
Be careful of terminology, "maximum win" in that sense only applies to scratchcard-style slots or capped (multiplier) slots. Bonanza is neither of those so will state a maximum liability (set by the casino, e.g. £250k/€1m, and heavily influenced by the maximum stake offered), possibly a guidance "win up to" value (which sites often misquote as "max win"), and then the maximum observed multiplier in testing.

It's on BTG's website as 'max win'. They list Lil Devil as 100,504x

I get what you're saying though.
I'm genuinely interested in how these things work. I studied statistics and probability many years ago as it's always been something I've been interested in. I suspect what little knowledge I've retained is miles away from being able to understand these things today though. I got an 'O' level in Computer Studies in 1985 - I haven't had the courage to apply to for a job at Microsoft with this 'qualification'! :laugh:
 

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It's on BTG's website as 'max win'. They list Lil Devil as 100,504x
Fair point, that'll be BTG drinking the streamer Kool-Aid again then. Many of the review sites quote 50,000x as the max win "win up to", so that is likely to be what they originally declared based on internal and regulatory testing.

From a marketing perspective they need to quote something they've observed - so since this has happened in the wild they can modify their marketing to reflect that (and why it is oddly specific). It's plausible that we don't see another 50,000x+ win in the lifetime of the slot, and similarly it's possible we see one even larger (because it's not actually a theoretical maximum or capped win, just latching on to streamer "lingo" for marketing purposes).

If we take something like Immortal Romance, they quote "win up to 12000x" - but if Sarah went absolutely mental with Wild Vines you could have more than that... but the odds of that would be truly astronomical, and why providers of the day went with the "one big hit" principle - because it's likely to be seen in test conditions. Nothing worse than a provider claiming 60,000x when the odds are so ridiculous that they'll never see close to that in testing...
 
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"Win upto" should be banned. It really should "Win likely to be 20X". Or not at all if you're like me and count 32 bonus teasers on TED and leave penniless and bonusless.
“Win likely” is worse…. Sounds like you will likely win something where we know the opposite is true. I particularly dislike the “How much will you win?” Type lines where they idea of winning is implied. Win up to is usually just staying the maximum allowable win which is nice to know so that when you achieve a win greater than the “up to” amount there’s no surprise when it stops counting half way through the win and are met with “maximum allowable win achieved” message. ?
 
“Win likely” is worse…. Sounds like you will likely win something where we know the opposite is true. I particularly dislike the “How much will you win?” Type lines where they idea of winning is implied. Win up to is usually just staying the maximum allowable win which is nice to know so that when you achieve a win greater than the “up to” amount there’s no surprise when it stops counting half way through the win and are met with “maximum allowable win achieved” message. ?
Not necessarily, "win up to" historically was a guide of the maximum observed win and it was mathematically possible (subject to any liability cap) to exceed that. It's not likely, but it's technically possible - as noted earlier where a BTG game round exceeded the observed test samples by 100%+.

On the flip side, a lot of modern scratchcard slots impose a win limit / capped win on top of that. Given the game round is already scripted, telling a player they haven't won that pre-determined scripted result feels like a bait and switch - and I think would be quite reasonable to be referred to as dishonest or even fraudulent (and once again, the game rules do heavy lifting to avoid it being outright fraudulent).
 
I’ve always been of the belief “win up to” states the maximum winnable amount on any singular spin - just like a physical scratch ticket will say “win up to a million”…. Any game bearing that wording and honouring a payout above and beyond the stated “up to” amount - good on those folks ?
 
I’ve always been of the belief “win up to” states the maximum winnable amount on any singular spin - just like a physical scratch ticket will say “win up to a million”…. Any game bearing that wording and honouring a payout above and beyond the stated “up to” amount - good on those folks ?
Your statement applies to scratchcard-style slots, but not to reel-based slots. The game rules will disclose either way.

Depending on the design of the slot, it may be possible to trigger that mammoth spin more than once (e.g. in a bonus) but the odds will be astronomical of it happening - way beyond the 10 billion spins they do for test.

Would it be fair to state "Win up to 100,000x" on Immortal Romance for something that might be a 1 in a googol shot? No. Does that mean the game is capped by multiplier stake? Also no, that's what the liability limit is for.

Capped wins (as a multiplier of stake) are a much more recent invention for online slots - and naturally not for the better.
 
Capped wins (as a multiplier of stake) are a much more recent invention for online slots - and naturally not for the better.

Yeah I agree I am not a fan of the max wins on new slots either. For many that dream of hitting one is never going to happen. I still never have had a max win on any of them yet. These max win caps was created for streamers 100%. They constantly chase these so called max wins. But in essence when that spin that shown the max win result exceeds the Xbet and shows what it would have been in terms of money then you get pissed of and feel you got ripped off and missed out on the rest of the money beyond that max win cap.

Take for example the new prag slot Strawberry Coctail. That has a cap of 16000X bet and yet on that new slot they now decided to show the amount beyond the 16000X bet in cash before you get the final total on the screen that is just the capped cash amount totalling 16000X bet. I see them as cheating by providers. Dodgy and fake slots.

I mean take for example the new Jack Hammer 3 from net ent,, dreadful slot yet again from that provider
  • Max Win: 1332x
  • Max Win Probability: 1 in 50M spins
So that sums up how disgraceful they are in terms of the caps themselves but the actual chances of getting it.

I mean only slot that might be easier to get a max win on is the No Limit slot Nine 2 Five with Xbet enabled and the promotion to super can be got pretty easily and not hard to get super from base game either. But in general on the vast majority of other slots for UK players it is 100000000X harder to get super bonuses from base game without buying which we can not do.
 
Your statement applies to scratchcard-style slots, but not to reel-based slots. The game rules will disclose either way.
I understand what you’re saying. In Canada I think there needs to be a mention of the “Max win” but I’m not certain. We have the “win up to” on reel machines here and I’ve seen the maximum be achieved multiple times during a bonus on a physical machine. The max win on a machine in bars (pubs) is 2500… once the 2500 is achieved on a singular spin - regardless of being in a bonus round or if there’s still money to be counted - the ticket is printed for that amount at the time of the hit… the bonus round will continue from there and the max win is reset to 2500.
Regarding scratch tickets - the lottery corp. / government here got taken to court over the fact that there can be tickets in the stores that advertise “Win up to X” which have already exhausted all max wins. So if there’s only 2 tickets that have the max win amount and both are cashed and that same series/batch of tickets still exist in stores the lotto corp has to tell all retailers to pull those particular tickets.
 
I mean take for example the new Jack Hammer 3 from net ent,, dreadful slot yet again from that provider
  • Max Win: 1332x
  • Max Win Probability: 1 in 50M spins
So that sums up how disgraceful they are in terms of the caps themselves but the actual chances of getting it.

So firstly, don't think of NetEnt of old - they've largely vanished in the Evolution universe (you'll see more NetEnt abominations with Red Tiger badges, with the name and theme but none of the play style).

Secondly, be careful of reading too much into one data point - remember this is the singular highest win theoretically possible or actually observed, so if the game doesn't have a controlled cap you would expect it to be rare because those biggest wins are themselves a group rather than a singular limit (e.g. there may be 100 such scenarios over 1000x).

For example:
  • Bullshit Bonanza(tm) has a 1 in 10,000 shot of paying a full screen that is worth 400x - it then pays a fixed bonus award of 100x - meaning the 500x top prize is achieved 1 in 10,000 spins.
  • If we take that 100x fixed award and turn it into a pick'em bonus round - you could have 550x is achieved 1 in 30k spins, 750x is achieved 1 in 100k spins, 10000x is achieved 1 in 2m spins and so on.
The key part here is that 99.99% of that theoretical game is literally unchanged - but the definition of highest win and frequency changes dramatically.

The same applies with scratchcard slots - you can add or remove single balls from the bag to modify the profile (RTP, highest win / frequency) but 99.99% of the game hasn't changed. This is why players have to be particularly careful because the RTP can be reduced substantially based on one or a handful of balls being removed from the pool (e.g. one ball removes 1.5% RTP, ten balls removes 10% RTP etc)

I mean only slot that might be easier to get a max win on is the No Limit slot Nine 2 Five with Xbet enabled and the promotion to super can be got pretty easily and not hard to get super from base game either.
If they put 16,000 times the RTP into the maximum wins compared to previous generations of slots, then perhaps not a surprise that it happens a lot more frequently. Naturally it has to be paid for somewhere, and that's why like most streamer slots it can drain a balance in minutes - paint drying would be a more entertaining hobby.
 
For example:
  • Bullshit Bonanza(tm) has a 1 in 10,000 shot of paying a full screen that is worth 400x - it then pays a fixed bonus award of 100x - meaning the 500x top prize is achieved 1 in 10,000 spins.
  • If we take that 100x fixed award and turn it into a pick'em bonus round - you could have 550x is achieved 1 in 30k spins, 750x is achieved 1 in 100k spins, 10000x is achieved 1 in 2m spins and so on.
I know that was an example but I have had bonuses on bonanza that paid 10X so the fixed 100X minimum is not true lol
 
I know that was an example but I have had bonuses on bonanza that paid 10X so the fixed 100X minimum is not true lol
Oh I'm not referring to the Bonanza, I'm referring to a mythical slot I made up as an example. I know BTG have been somewhat deceptive with their win potential but I suspect people would be rioting if Bonanza capped a full screen at 400x :laugh:

It explains the point though - the RTP curve being identical for 99.99% of the spins in the above scenario, but those particular metrics being wildly different. Sadly few providers give anywhere near enough information to calculate the RTP curve - and if they do it'll be restricted access rather than in the public domain. I guess that's why I found the WMS spec sheets interesting, because it provided a wealth of information about the slot not normally accessible.
 
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