Bonus Buys RTP Verses Natural bonuses.

[Sasukdcf]

Hi Guys,

I have searched through some threads and apologies if this has been missed,
But I sit firmly in the camp of "removing BB was a ridiculous move" and can say that I have lost far more since they have done that and genuinely also have RSI in my hand now since auto play has been removed and wonder if I should sue the GC for causing this!! anyway I digress.

I have always wondered this and never got round to posting anything but finally I have just seen it happen and so wondered if there was an official line on it.


My understanding of slots is as follows.

A games RTP is split between base game and Feature.

so lets say base is 30% and feature 65% for instance.

so surely then if you are bonus buying the bonus RTP is now 95% as there is no Base game to pay for.

This means as players in the UK we get doubly shafted as it can cost way more than it would cost to BB to hit a feature and if we do then we are getting back a lower RTP.

Now I have just been playing Dead canary on demo play as I hit the feature for real yesterday and hit the most amazing set up with all 3 birds values over 500x and it shafted me (i was gutted) and wondered how often this happened, so I played a load of BB today buying the gold bonus at 500x stake for about 30 bonuses...

Now it feels like the 500x bonus buy has a min win as EVERY one i bought was 200x or more return with only a couple giving profit.... so looked like a fairly low volatillity bonus....

so after a while of getting bored on that I thought I would see how long it would take to hit a feature naturally on it....

I had the extra bet on and hit it after about 70 spins or so and WITH a golden canary so in essence thats worth 500x

Happy Days .................... it paid 55X

WTF so to clarify NOT ONE BB on Golden hit less than 200x (I have the video to prove it )
and the first natural one pays 55x

so are we getting double fisted more than we realise?

Do are natural features have a lower RTP

 

[Jono777]

Love to know the truth behind this, as another UK player it does seem ridiculously difficult to get a bonus or a decent session these days, a coincidence that this all seemed to start as these new nannying rules started to appear?

Sadly we won't get said truth, only conspiracies and guesses.

 

[shadow123]

Pretty sure that when you do a bonus buy, you are buying a modified bonus rather than one achieved through normal gameplay,
the main proof of this for me is the fact that nearly all Pragmatic BB,s are 100x, No way can this be a reflection of the average cost
of every single normal gameplay bonus,Pragmatics have different base game play and bonus chances, very rarely would you
expect to lose 100x on a Bass game and get no feature.
Must say I have cursed the UKGC many times for bringing in this stupid ban when I have chased a bonus for hundreds of plays and still not got one.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Like all slots there is always many ways to play around with the math.....

Not a conspiracy or a guess, I will post a couple of examples of how a provider could do it

Game X - RTP 96%

Base - 61%
Feature - 35% lets say pays 96x Ave

Game X using BB - RTP 96%

Base - 0%
Feature 96% eg 96x Ave

This set up could use identical feature set up but this would generally only really work due to game X having a 96X feature average on normal game.

Games that use a pool for game results eg "Jammin jars" and countless others you could adjust the feature pool for the bonus buys to deliver the required RTP

Each provider will have their own way of doing it and would be most likely determined by the original games math design on which way was used.

So in fact the BB on a game could be the same as the non BB version, but I would and you should expect most games wouldn't be this way and that they have adjusted feature rounds that are different to the natural bonus.

So in theory yes BB would be enhanced as such as they generally have to provide a higher average x on feature buys compared to natural bonuses so yes you could argue that UKGC has screwed the UK proper but they never gonna see it that way because they are pretty clueless and need to employ me to sort all their shit out.

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[Sasukdcf]

so with currently 2 responses both agreeing with a BB potentially having a better RTP, then why isnt a forum such as this with what I would assume due to its knowledge base and Longevity within the industry, doing something about it?

@Casinomeister ??

Because unless I am mistaken this is currently how I see it.


The Governing Body that is there to keep us safe from Gambling Harm and ensure the casinos follow the rules have allowed the game providers to make a totally different UK based gaming platform that clearly disadvantages the Uk market as hitting a bonus now has become harder especially with the more volatile providers like Hacksaw that will munch £1K without so much as a sniff at a bonus, and if you do get lucky then potentially you are playing a feature that has a 25% lower return than the EU based player that didnt waste 4 hours trying to get it.

That is totally ludicrous, and for it to not even be transparent makes it feel even more like the UKGC are complicit in this blatent deceit.

the UKGC will not act on any individual case from a consumer and going through IBAS or similar (who are funded by the casinos ) is rarely fruitful, so it would need a larger entity to approach them and make them see sense or expose the truth behind all this, because NOTHING they have done regarding online casinos has protected the UK market.

 

[Jono777]

They removed auto play, gotta love em for that

 

[dunover]

The bonus buy option is nearly always the same in RTP as playing the game normally - you may get a slightly better or worse overall RTP say 96.81% compared to 96.65% for standard play, there are several games where the BB RTP is actually marginally less than playing normally, but generally as near as dammit the same.

The RTP is based on the bonus round pro-rata delivering the same long-term RTP as the normal game so the OP is moot. If the stated RTP using bonus buys (say 100x bet) is 96.50% then you know that playing the game only using BB will deliver exactly that - an average bonus return of 96.50 for your 100 bet.

If the game is played normally like in the UK and the RTP is say 96.50% (those were the days!) then you willl get exactly that over the very long term including the far less frequent bonuses. Nobody is being fisted.

All you do when buying bonus is this:

Normal Bonus:

Normal bonus frequency 1/400 spins.

Overall bonus yield normal game 25% of RTP therefore average yield of 1x 96.50

Other base game play 75% of RTP so 3x 96.50

So for 400 spins you get back 386 on average. 96.50%

Bonus Buys:

100 cost, 100% of RTP in bonus so 96.50 per bonus average = overall RTP 96.50%

So four bonuses costs 400, you get back 4x 96.50 on average = 96.50%

All you are doing buying bonuses is converting the other 3/4 or 75% of base game RTP allocation to bonus returns.

The only difference it can really make is to volatility, which becomes very high if the bonuses are 'lumpy' say like the NLC ones. Whereas BTG's White Rabbit for example is low in volatility buying bonuses.

 

[brianmon]

I'd be more inclined to blame the likes of BTG for bonus buys being banned.
IIRC, they were the first provider to offer a game (Extra Chilli) where you could buy a bonus for £1000, be tilted into gambling the 8 spins for a more reasonable 12 spins, lose the gamble, and lose your £1000, without seeing a single reel spin.

I think that's when the UKCG started taking notice.

BTG could have easily given 12 spins for a bonus buy, at whatever the appropriate price would be, or used a different set of reels.
But they chose to take the piss and shaft their players

 

[Itaghai]

I don't think the issue is on the BB or the base game RTP.

The main issue right now is the slot providers that are just pushing BB oriented slots, more and more slots are harder to get bonus on, even some of the old slots had been updated to a BB version.

As someone in the UK that can't bonus buys I certainly have noticed a lot of changes (you also can see the slots version in the info, although they don't show you the changelog).

One of the examples is Book Of Destiny from relax gaming and print studios, before with the extra chance it was fairly easy to bonus but since august when they released the last update that slot completely changed, the pattern is not the same anymore and it's awful to bonus.

Then from the same provider and creators, take a look at Reapers.
A UK player basically will never hit a bonus in that slot, the average bonus hit by the official statistics is around 1 for every 2700 spins, meanwhile, if you enhance your bet you can get it fairly quickly.

Other changes I noticed for example in Pragmatic, since late Oct / early Nov, Gates of Olympus slot completely changed, now it just throws you scatters over and over, and you get 3 scatters screens a lot of times, meanwhile the number of multis dropped in the base game are reduced, the bonus is way harder to hit and the bonus payouts are being completely shit.

 

[Sasukdcf]

 

[Itaghai]

View attachment 178150

-341.64£
Good luck, hope you recover in that insanely volatile bonus ?

 

[Sasukdcf]

@dunover

ill be honest you have lost me a little with you post.

so are you saying that an RTP of a game is not split between base game and feature??

surely it has to be...... take a game like pearl harbour by No limit

that basically doesnt have a base game so if you dont hit a feature you are going to lose your shirt

wheras bonanza for instance can keep you playing for ages sometimes and stay level.... but you wont hit wins on bonanza like you can on PH. so all of PH RTP is in the feature whereas in Bonanza its split....



in most games you need to hit a feature in order to win especially once you are into a game for x amount....

but my screenshot above is just what happens now day in day out..... just had a starting balance of £600

I played this and rasputin

nearly 2 hours of play

hit 1 feature on each finally

Wanted on 60p paid ..... drum roll please 18p
rasputin on £1 paid £25.70

but its ok cos the Gc have my back....... i would have done far worse if I could have done bonus buys....

Cretinous f*ck nuggets

 

[Sasukdcf]

-341.64£
Good luck, hope you recover in that insanely volatile bonus ?

 

[Sasukdcf]

-341.64£
Good luck, hope you recover in that insanely volatile bonus ?

see above

 

[goatwack]

It's no secret that developers have made their base games as lacklustre as possible in order to 'steer' the player into purchasing the bonus, as that is the blueprint of modern slot design. I don't think they base their designs on prohibited markets like the UK, they make the games for whichever jurisdictions permit them!

And had they not been banned here (presently) then we all know that there's no depths they won't stoop to, to make them scratchcard games in all but name.....

So now players find themselves playing dreary, dead-end, high variance games where the base game is but an afterthought, and the game's best offerings effectively hidden behind a paywall, with players duped into believing that RTP will be met, and life-affirming Hollywood hits just tantalizingly out of reach ?

Only game that bucks the trend is Bonanza with its base game allocation fiendishly crafted in, and the much-hyped bonus nothing but a smokescreen.

But as much as I'd like to believe that a Bonus Buy has the entirety of that game's RTP wedged into it, it's far more likely to still be 'preordained' to be set at the natural game's cycle, so as mentioned in the example e.g 65%, in a lopsided boom or bust manner.

I don't think designers care enough to cordon off BBs into a separate game mode, and quite like the way they've set the maths in motion, whereby one spends hours and countless money to 'naturally' trigger the bonus to get diddly-squat, or where one forks out on a sequence of overpriced bonuses that pay f*** all. All hail the future?

 

[Sasukdcf]

It's no secret that developers have made their base games as lacklustre as possible in order to 'steer' the player into purchasing the bonus, as that is the blueprint of modern slot design. I don't think they base their designs on prohibited markets like the UK, they make the games for whichever jurisdictions permit them!

And had they not been banned here (presently) then we all know that there's no depths they won't stoop to, to make them scratchcard games in all but name.....

So now players find themselves playing dreary, dead-end, high variance games where the base game is but an afterthought, and the game's best offerings effectively hidden behind a paywall, with players duped into believing that RTP will be met, and life-affirming Hollywood hits just tantalizingly out of reach ?

Only game that bucks the trend is Bonanza with its base game allocation fiendishly crafted in, and the much-hyped bonus nothing but a smokescreen.

But as much as I'd like to believe that a Bonus Buy has the entirety of that game's RTP wedged into it, it's far more likely to still be 'preordained' to be set at the natural game's cycle, so as mentioned in the example e.g 65%, in a lopsided boom or bust manner.

I don't think designers care enough to cordon off BBs into a separate game mode, and quite like the way they've set the maths in motion, whereby one spends hours and countless money to 'naturally' trigger the bonus to get diddly-squat, or where one forks out on a sequence of overpriced bonuses that pay f*** all. All hail the future?

but if what you say is right .......

"But as much as I'd like to believe that a Bonus Buy has the entirety of that game's RTP wedged into it, it's far more likely to still be 'preordained' to be set at the natural game's cycle, so as mentioned in the example e.g 65%, in a lopsided boom or bust manner."

then that would not be at the RTP advertised for the bonus buy.

which would be illegal


i would rather lose and play features than lose and manually click dead spins for 4 hours and if i was FB then I would reduce my stake to ensure they were at the right level......

Iplay £1 or £2 spins and can munch through £1000 with no feature way too often

or like above £350 on 60P and win .18p
whereas I could FB on these games at min stake and get more playtime and more enjoyment

so thanks GC for looking out for us

 

[Itaghai]

I remember a day before the auto spin was removed, I just wanted a quick sweet bonanza bonus before going off.
I shit you not, I did over 800 spins to finally hit a 14x bonus., I was down like 350x my base bet, while I could have just spent 100x buying the bonus and fuck off

 

[brianmon]

but if what you say is right .......

"But as much as I'd like to believe that a Bonus Buy has the entirety of that game's RTP wedged into it, it's far more likely to still be 'preordained' to be set at the natural game's cycle, so as mentioned in the example e.g 65%, in a lopsided boom or bust manner."

then that would not be at the RTP advertised for the bonus buy.

which would be illegal


i would rather lose and play features than lose and manually click dead spins for 4 hours and if i was FB then I would reduce my stake to ensure they were at the right level......

Iplay £1 or £2 spins and can munch through £1000 with no feature way too often

or like above £350 on 60P and win .18p
whereas I could FB on these games at min stake and get more playtime and more enjoyment

so thanks GC for looking out for us

But the RTP is for the game itself, overall, not a personal thing.
You may need to buy 1000 or even more bonuses to get near the advertised RTP.
If the game on the whole pays 96% (or whatever) back to all players, all averaged together. Then there's nothing illegal

 

[Sasukdcf]

But the RTP is for the game itself, overall, not a personal thing.
You may need to buy 1000 or even more bonuses to get near the advertised RTP.
If the game on the whole pays 96% (or whatever) back to all players, all averaged together. Then there's nothing illegal

Yes but if the game itself has the RTP split over base game and feature

And you only play feature which is 65% of the RTP then as you are not playing base game you are only getting 65% RTP

And in my experience playing on demo FB they pay way better than natural ones….

And we are ASSURED that demo mode is the same as real mode…..

My money would last way longer and I would have way more withdrawals using FB without a shadow of a doubt

 

[goatwack]

I guess one could branch this into several discussions by itself, in regards to RTP legitimacy. And God knows we've tried!

Yet in regards to the ol' chestnut as to whether Demo Play is anything close to resembling Real Play, well, it's not even close, as it's already been debunked, and I learned 'back in the day' that the two are nothing alike.

"But but but there are checks in place to prevent those shenanigans!" I hear people cry in unison......which'd be great if we hadn't already witnessed companies use Demo Play to shill the greatness of their wares. I mean I even got five 'Georgies' line up within my first time playing Georgie Porgie a few years ago, a feat so rare that I still laugh at the whole absurdity of it!

 

[dunover]

@dunover

ill be honest you have lost me a little with you post.

so are you saying that an RTP of a game is not split between base game and feature??

surely it has to be...... take a game like pearl harbour by No limit

that basically doesnt have a base game so if you dont hit a feature you are going to lose your shirt

wheras bonanza for instance can keep you playing for ages sometimes and stay level.... but you wont hit wins on bonanza like you can on PH. so all of PH RTP is in the feature whereas in Bonanza its split....



in most games you need to hit a feature in order to win especially once you are into a game for x amount....

but my screenshot above is just what happens now day in day out..... just had a starting balance of £600

I played this and rasputin

nearly 2 hours of play

hit 1 feature on each finally

Wanted on 60p paid ..... drum roll please 18p
rasputin on £1 paid £25.70

but its ok cos the Gc have my back....... i would have done far worse if I could have done bonus buys....

Cretinous f*ck nuggets

Yes, it IS split between base game spins and features, in my earlier example the game pays 3/4 (72%) of its RTP in the base game, 1/4 (24%) in feature so just over 96% overall RTP.

All that happens for bonus buys is that you continually play the feature so that 3/4 of base RTP is now allocated to the bonus round too (bought at significant cost of say 100x stake) which is effectively you 'buying' the 3/4 of RTP for base game wins you would have had (on average) and then playing the feature which (on average long term) incorporates this and will pay you 96x bet for each of your 100x purchases. The same as the base game + normal feature would pay you 96% overall in the long term.

If you check game rules on BB slots they will have the RTP listed something like this:

Overall Game = 96.00%
Feature Buy for 100x bet RTP = 96.03%
Super Feature Buy Option for 200x bet RTP = 96.04% (if applicable)

So in other words the rules will list normal RTP plus the RTP figures as if the game was only played on each of the various BB options.

P.S. I just read your last post where you make the incorrect observation that you 'would not be getting the base game 65% if using Bonus Buys!

You do! What's happening is the base game RTP and feature RTP are added together when buying features. like this:

NORMAL:
Base game feature frequency on average = 400 spins.
Feature allocation/proportion of overall RTP = 25%
BONUS BUYS:
Feature Buy cost = 100x spin stake
Using Feature Buys you are sacrificing the 3/4 of the overall RTP the base game would normally pay in those 400 spins.
So Feature is occurring in reality 4 times more than it would in 'normal' play (1/400 spins.)
So your Feature Buy RTP is 4 times more than the 25% of overall game RTP it's allocated in normal play.
Therefore using bonus buys, 100% of the game's stated RTP is allocated to the feature.

Perhaps @trancemonkey would explain it more simply than I have.

 

[jasonuk]

Not all providers are doing it, but certainly the streamer-friendly ones are pushing Paint Drying Simulator 2023 slots with so little RTP in the base game you're going to lose your shirt chasing a feature - and even if you hit it then it can play close to zero.

For games with a distinct bonus round, then you can separate the two - the only parameters that pass from the base game to the bonus round is the wager, and the number of scatters. In this case, each category of bonus round can be simulated and come up with a precise value. Additionally you could replace said bonus round with said fixed value, and the RTP of the base game wouldn't change as a result - just the volatility (because it's a fixed award rather than a bonus round).

For games with scripted / connected play - in that case you're filtering the balls into categories - no win, small win, big win, bonus, super bonus and so on. For each of those, you can then calculate the RTP for each category (or in the case of the full game, all categories combined).

Regarding PDS 2023, this is because people don't want to wait 500-1000 spins for a bonus (or 45 minutes to 2 hours at UK spin speeds). However because these bonuses are such high value (potentially 200x or more), then it's never going to fit into a "traditional" design with a bonus every 150-200 spins.

Which means the only option is to reduce the RTP of the base game down to peanuts, to increase the frequency of the bonus round, e.g.

Traditional - 70% base, 25% bonus every 150 spins = 37.5x bonus value (so FB around 39x)
Modern Slow - 70% base, 25% bonus every 800 spins = 200x bonus value (so FB around 210x)
Modern Fast - 20% base, 75% bonus every 267 spins = 200x bonus value (FB 210x)

 

[justdoit]

slots like Nolimit is hard to win even if you do bonus buy, you need to spam BB to win something good, max win is like 1 in 14m, easy way to win max win when game com out but still needs to spam BB, to spam BB u need big balance, same think with relax gaming they are going on same way

 

[satchnz]

Mate, this isn’t the winners screenshot thread. Post your photo there. ??

 

[pinnit2014]

Feels like you need to build a business case inside your head to pay slots these days: factor in reduced RTP's, Oh it has a BB; is that the same as the game w/o one?, oh look you can add 5 p to 'double' your chance of a bonus as well (yeah, whatever ), gamble 8 spins for 10/12: does it really make a difference?

It's pretty exhausting.

9 lines on Ladies Night seems a long time ago.