Random my ****

[johnnymcc1966]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your premise,Mr Vegas is an awful casino with appalling RTPs and not a good casino to gauge slots on. I would suggest a different casino for starters.

 

[snorky510238]

Well the thing that just doesn’t add up is, I have never played that many different games. I was playing a lot and I mean, a lot of hours per day. Between 4 and 8, perhaps more at weekends but only played about 8 different games.

In all that time (5 years), I only ever lost £300 in a day, twice without some kind of return or long hours of playing.

Then all of a sudden £300 started disappearing without trace in a couple of hours. Not once or twice but it became constant and more “the norm”.

Until I reached the point where it became pointless so I reduced my deposits dramatically.

@ChopleyIOM, you state that these big wins are like gold dust. Well, not on Bonanza they weren’t. I was hitting between 6 and 10 bonus rounds per day, sometimes more and a lot of them paid between x200 and x1,000.

I even posted them privately on a daily basis so there are 4 or 5 members who could back up what I am saying.

It went from playing like that for years (not saying I was winning all the time but it seemed fair), to going 3, 4 days or even a week without seeing a bonus and has played like that for at least 2 and half years.

I hit decent wins on loads of volatile games. Razor Shark, Deadwood, DoA (both), Mental, Jammin Jars, etc, etc. Again, not saying I was winning long term but I was only losing the expected and some months I would recoup thousands of pounds. Not had a decent win on any of them for 2 years.

To go from that to not having a winning month for two and half years and having deposit after deposit go down the plug hole virtually every time just doesn’t add up. It really doesn’t.

People can say whatever they want. You will never convince me that online gambling is anything but legal (I use the term loosely) systematic robbery. A filthy disgusting, immoral and unethical Industry that should be dumped in room 101 quicker than it appeared.

P.S. And in time just like the High Street FOBT’s it will be. Might not be for a while but with providers and Casinos getting so greedy, the government will eventually have to bow to the overwhelming cries.

 

[snorky510238]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your premise,Mr Vegas is an awful casino with appalling RTPs and not a good casino to gauge slots on. I would suggest a different casino for starters.

Yes, Mr Vegas is just Videoslots with different pants on. I agree, I was a fool to play there, as I had moaned enough about VS being shite.

Problem is, for UK players, where do you go? Unibet has gone from being one of the best to absolute scum and now ranks amongst the worst. I have always been suspicious of bookies sites and convinced from the ones I have played at, that they operate on at least a 2% lower rtp than advertised. That is based on returns at the odd few I did play at.

Of the others, most decent ones like Dunder, Thrills and others, left the market. The rest wanted ridiculous SoW which I couldn’t be bothered with so I suppose you’re left with the dregs. Never been tempted to play at a rogue Casino because If I ever did hit the one in a trillion win, I’d like to be paid.

 

[Guntis]

Yes, Mr Vegas is just Videoslots with different pants on. I agree, I was a fool to play there, as I had moaned enough about VS being shite.

Problem is, for UK players, where do you go? Unibet has gone from being one of the best to absolute scum and now ranks amongst the worst. I have always been suspicious of bookies sites and convinced from the ones I have played at, that they operate on at least a 2% lower rtp than advertised. That is based on returns at the odd few I did play at.

Of the others, most decent ones like Dunder, Thrills and others, left the market. The rest wanted ridiculous SoW which I couldn’t be bothered with so I suppose you’re left with the dregs. Never been tempted to play at a rogue Casino because If I ever did hit the one in a trillion win, I’d like to be paid.

How about Bet365? Those popular games there sit at max RTPs, and Bet365 doesn't piss people off with how come you got those 50 pounds on your bank account, etc.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You've simply been unlucky, and you're not alone - there will be lots of people who get turned over by shit-or-bust slot profiles like that, with very little in the middle. The best thing you can do is walk away from games like that and play lower-variance stuff that at least give entertainment. 10,000 spins is absolutely nothing on slots like CCM - but why bother carrying on in the hope that your luck changes when you'll probably experience the same sort of thing again?

Maybe snorky will believe it coming from you, I'm running out of ways to arrange the same words in slightly different orders....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

People can say whatever they want. You will never convince me that online gambling is anything but legal (I use the term loosely) systematic robbery. A filthy disgusting, immoral and unethical Industry that should be dumped in room 101 quicker than it appeared.

These words would carry far more weight if you'd stop giving them your money. You can say whatever you like about online casinos (and indeed you do!), but the one thing they can't do is force you at gunpoint to hand over your cash, you still have to make the choice to deposit.

I mean, sheesh, I don't even think the online casinos were cheating me, and yet I still decided to walk away just off the back off shitty modern slot design, RTP nerfing, and the general hassle around depositing and hoop-jumping.

You literally think the online casinos are robbing you and you're giving them what for by, erm, making multiple deposits at MrVegas to chase losses on some shitty Megaways Prag.

That'll learn 'em!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

How about Bet365? Those popular games there sit at max RTPs, and Bet365 doesn't piss people off with how come you got those 50 pounds on your bank account, etc.

I’ve banged the exact same drum about 365 on numerous occasions.

Yet STILL there are players from here who are fully aware of different RTP models and which casinos run what, that continue to make deposits at places like videoslots and mr vegas. Not to mention other sites that are well known for asking for absolute nonsense and hiding behind SOW as well as running shitty RTP models.

Ffs people, WAKE UP!!

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Yes, Mr Vegas is just Videoslots with different pants on. I agree, I was a fool to play there, as I had moaned enough about VS being shite.

Problem is, for UK players, where do you go? Unibet has gone from being one of the best to absolute scum and now ranks amongst the worst. I have always been suspicious of bookies sites and convinced from the ones I have played at, that they operate on at least a 2% lower rtp than advertised. That is based on returns at the odd few I did play at.

Of the others, most decent ones like Dunder, Thrills and others, left the market. The rest wanted ridiculous SoW which I couldn’t be bothered with so I suppose you’re left with the dregs. Never been tempted to play at a rogue Casino because If I ever did hit the one in a trillion win, I’d like to be paid.

My suggestion as a UK player is to try Bet365 given its largely maximum RTPs. It should also highlight any noticeable differences against a shoddy place like Mr Vegas.

 

[incrediblestuff]

All i know @snorky510238 is that you've spent gazillions of spins on Bonanza, which is possibly one of the most HC slots to get into... And to be fair, a lot of newer games from the past couple of years have similarly HV models. I do agree with you that in itself, it's a vile industry, but the same can be said for many of our modern pastimes. I mean, just using google, youtube, facebook and twitter now basically means your info and userprofile has been sold in bulk to countless of unethical instances, (not per say by those companies themselves) yet none of those offer you the chance to get something 'back'..

At least with casinos you have the chance (assuming everything is above board) to get more than entertainment. In that sense i have less issues with casinos than other internet ventures. I'd give one of my kidneys to know exactly how all of it exactly works, regarding modern casino software, revenue models, and back-end monitoring, but not likely that's ever gonna happen.

Regarding some players seem to win more than others, some simple facts: not all people take the time to post their wins, most players definitely don't post their losses (why would they - noone really cares) and historically, some people are just luckier than others, in general or even on specific slots. This could have to do with a ton of factors (hence kidney-offering) but it's safe to say it's afact. Has been like that on the first Mechanical slots, in poker, in landbased table games (always that one fucker that wins 10K in 3 spins on roulette, and then all the players that were losing start to 'back' him/her, only for the streak to immediately end ) anyhoo, im starting to ramble, but you catch my drift.

And there's always the possibility that it's rigged, more than just allowed by law, but it is the less likely scenario, as often when this is the case, they get caught, and then the gig's usually up. And seeing that once you have a Casino up and running, with a decent playerbase, that's a very solid income stream! Jeopardizing that would be - EV (not that that stops some people)...

But as i stated in another thread recently, these inner dialogues and doubts, are surely something that every long term gambler experiences. Psychologically possibly even incorporated in most eye and ear candy in modern slots! I say 'possibly' but you know what i mean

 

[snorky510238]

The thing is, I have been calling them out for ages. I am not doing it retrospectively. I have been suspicious that players are getting a rough deal for a long time.

All I got is, where your proof? You then produce some that is as emphatic as you can imagine. Irrefutable evidence and it’s still not enough for some folk.

 

[interlog]

The thing is, I have been calling them out for ages. I am not doing it retrospectively. I have been suspicious that players are getting a rough deal for a long time.

All I got is, where your proof? You then produce some that is as emphatic as you can imagine. Irrefutable evidence and it’s still not enough for some folk.

Look at this recent example of mine.

Playing Bonanza, on my 6th deposit of £100 so £600 in on £1 spins. None of those deposits have resulted in a single bonus round and at no point did I have a balance of more than £100.

Down to the last 15 spins, and bam I get a 800x base game hit.... shed load of diamonds all across.

I am suddenly £200 in profit.


It only takes 1 spins to turn your fortunes around.

 

[incrediblestuff]

All i can say there is: what seems irrefutable to you, may not be so irrefutable according to others. And assuming you were spot on, some people don't even see the light if you smash them in the head with it... Most of which only happens if they have a very similar experience to yours, or sit next to you while it's happening to you. And even then...no guarantees!

For me it has always been quite simple, if my gut tells me i'm not getting a fair game, or i feel like im being played, i move on. And of course, often then give fellow players a heads up to stay away, lest they want the same experience. But usually there are just as many people with good experiences on said slot/provider/casino, that it evens out..

The few times it doesn't - something's usually up

 

[snorky510238]

Look at this recent example of mine.

Playing Bonanza, on my 6th deposit of £100 so £600 in on £1 spins. None of those deposits have resulted in a single bonus round and at no point did I have a balance of more than £100.

Down to the last 15 spins, and bam I get a 800x base game hit.... shed load of diamonds all across.

I am suddenly £200 in profit.


It only takes 1 spins to turn your fortunes around.

We can all select samples of our gameplay to create the illusion required.

That’s why I purposely chose to play a game from scratch so the full history is there.

You’re not £200 up (unless you’ve never played it before). You are £200 up on that session and probably well down, lifetime.

 

[snorky510238]

All i can say there is: what seems irrefutable to you, may not be so irrefutable according to others. And assuming you were spot on, some people don't even see the light if you smash them in the head with it... Most of which only happens if they have a very similar experience to yours, or sit next to you while it's happening to you. And even then...no guarantees!

For me it has always been quite simple, if my gut tells me i'm not getting a fair game, or i feel like im being played, i move on. And of course, often then give fellow players a heads up to stay away, lest they want the same experience. But usually there are just as many people with good experiences on said slot/provider/casino, that it evens out..

The few times it doesn't - something's usually up

Nearly 10,000 spins, not a win above x100 and my rtp is around 20% below expected.

How much worse would it have to be to convince people?

Also, when you look at what the bonuses paid, that doesn’t seem very random for a game where the variables should be enormous. There seems like little pockets of x1-10, x10-30, etc.

Anyway, bonus rounds are 100% pre-scripted so nothing new there.

 

[interlog]

We can all select samples of our gameplay to create the illusion required.

That’s why I purposely chose to play a game from scratch so the full history is there.

You’re not £200 up (unless you’ve never played it before). You are £200 up on that session and probably well down, lifetime.

It course I am down lifetime on Bonanza. I could have walked away many time with an overall profit on Bonanza but I didn't because stupid me was getting greedy.

I am in proper profit on DHV after that 13000x win as I hardly play it. Could have given it all back by continuing to play and it would eventually have taken it back.

Look @dunover Bonanza play. How many times did he not walk away from a profit but instead continued playing and then lost the deposit?

Slots are designed to take your money. If you're ahead on them you should walk away, alas most of us don't. We get greedy and carry on and then whinge and moan about it.

 

[snorky510238]

I get your point but my moan here is, I was never once in a position to walk away. I never even got the balance over £100, once. I never once even had extended gameplay for my deposit.

My gripe is not losing money, it never has been. It’s about the fashion in which that money is lost.

Take another game. Napoleon. I have played a big chunk of spins through that game. Usually depositing £20 and 40p spins. In the first 4 years of playing it, I never once lost the whole deposit without a win (even though some were minuscule).

Then, all of a sudden, I experienced about one in four deposits disappearing without a single return. Am I really supposed to believe this is random coincidence?

As I have always stated, games are programmed, some providers make a better job of making them seem random than others.

Let’s take the random term a bit further. It’s a very ambiguous statement that enables providers to cover a multitude of sins.

After all, we could say a compensated game is random and in all honesty, I don’t see the difference.

Random or compensated, they both state a percentage that is returned to the player. They are essentially the exact same thing. Even on a game that is stated to be compensated, you cannot guarantee whether your next spin is a winner or loser so where is the difference?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nearly 10,000 spins, not a win above x100 and my rtp is around 20% below expected.

How much worse would it have to be to convince people?

I showed you my own stats from the horrible start I had on Arctic Adventure on the previous page of this thread, which are worse than the ones you have on that crappy Megaways Prag, does that make 3Dice bent as well? I carried on plugging away at Arctic and it levelled out, I could get my final lifetime stats from 3Dice, but the last time I asked which was mid-2022 I was at 137K spins on that game and it was very close to T-RTP (within 0.5%).

You're now talking like you've proved your point about slots being dirty rotten cheats, off the back of a sub 10K sample size on a HV Megaways slot, it's a nonsense.

Do you want me to recommend you a good book or something? I've read some corkers recently and would be happy to do so, and it might make you happier to do something other than play online slots that you are apparently convinced are on a personal crusade to defraud you out of every deposit you make.

 

[snorky510238]

Yes, you had done 13,000 spins and thought something was wrong with the game. IIRC you contacted the Casino to vent your dismay. You got lucky in that you hit a win that balanced it out somewhat but there was never a guarantee that would happen.

So, it’s okay for you to question suspect gameplay but it’s not okay for me to do likewise? Talk about double standards!

 

[goatwack]

I'm sure I'd skimmed that thread before, but having just re-read that Arctic Adventure adventure for the most part, it really looks like these kind of maths models were there all along, in among the medium-variance mainstream.

Things that I took from that thread:

1) Nifty's forthrightness

2) Not to play Arctic Adventure

Seems that in the maelstrom of modern slot design that developers have made their games in this fashion, whereby one's expectations are to be lessened upon pressing 'Spin'. It's as though you're supposed to enter the game knowing you're not going to win, with merely the faintest hope of even having a shot at winning big, all thanks to that intergalactic variance...

The fact that some of these titles are being showcased in a manner in which big bonuses fall from the sky every ten minutes is one thing.....yet judging by the voracity of these beasts, ten thousand, twenty thousand, or fifty thousand spins means effectively nothing. And once in the game's pocket, the player's unlikely to get out anytime soon, likely not even close to the purported RTP.

Gone are the days of flitting between medium-varianced slots; games are set up to keep players on a smaller selection of Megaways-esque offerings, going through the churn with next to no returns. Fun eh?

So whilst this will hold some players; attention, by and large, entertaining they are not, making the likes of Bonanza almost seem 'balanced', despite its lopsided nature. And trash though these slots are, unless prepared for the long game, including losing the shirt off your back, then dabbling in them will yield almost nothing.

Who doesn't love that

 

[casguy2016]

even 10,000 is such a small sample size in the grand scheme of things I fail to see what you are proving. The higher the variance and the higher the max win is on a slot the more likely you are to lose what you put in....unless you get lucky. As well the longer you spin on any slot the more you are likely to lose it all over time. if it's not something you are comfortable with perhaps you need something else to spend your money on.

 

[mack341]

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading the ukgc's definition or requirement for 'random' was that you wouldn't get consecutive spins resulting in the symbols in the same position on the reels/screen

But if it's a scratchcard type slot, where the rng in the program delivers a result in £ and then chooses a display to match the win/loss result, then that doesn't seem the same test of 'random' [mentioned above] as it would be for the other type of slot that calls a result for each reel stop?
[afaik... I'm really at the limits of my 'how do slots work' knowledge here ]

 

[Nate]

Following your post, I found several streamer videos of Christmas Carol Megaways and compiled the stats.

I think you just had a run of bad luck because the results of 44 streamer bonuses on the same game tell a different story.

The results of 44 random Pragmatic Play streamer bonuses are as follows;

X160
X410
X422
X2095
X411
X2099
X1021
X670
X6098
X180
X389
X150
X444
X352
X621
X2190
X1300
X2005
X270
X5923
X261
X241
X143
X9091
X4308
X1001
X582
X263
X184
X315
X3967
X2834
X2821
X291
X5723
X4724
X332
X7289
X1156
X1737
X623
X3845
X6223
X1234

The question begs... Are those bonus buys?

Nate

 

[paul7388]

The question begs... Are those bonus buys?

Nate

Think he was just taking the piss and made those figures up to reflect the fact streamers always seem to hit big wins.

 

[Nate]

Think he was just taking the piss and made those figures up to reflect the fact streamers always seem to hit big wins.

Nah Sorted. He PM'ed me to confirm that they were all Naturally triggered bonuses live on stream.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, you had done 13,000 spins and thought something was wrong with the game. IIRC you contacted the Casino to vent your dismay. You got lucky in that you hit a win that balanced it out somewhat but there was never a guarantee that would happen.

So, it’s okay for you to question suspect gameplay but it’s not okay for me to do likewise? Talk about double standards!

But that's kind of my point snorky, that thread is from eleven years ago, and it's basically me learning, in real time, about how variance really works, and how the maths profile of a game can throw up some results that feel extremely bad for us as the player. Arctic Adventure went on to be one of my favourite games at 3Dice, and was on my regular play rotation there right up until I stopped playing online completely - but it was always important to be mindful of how its somewhat wacky maths could deliver some extremely weird sessions, in both the very bad, and very good directions. (I still maintain to this day it should have a three chilli rating, not a two chilli rating, but 3Dice never changed it.)

I've learned a lot of lessons about online slots over the years, quite often the hard way - (I still remember one boozed up evening at 32Red that saw £1000 disappear (we're probably talking 2008 or so), finishing off on some shite single liner on £3 spins and me not quite understanding where my 95% was supposed to be) - and whilst I don't claim to know everything, I do think I have a pretty solid understanding of what makes them tick. I made entire videos for my previous YT channel explaining variance, randomness (and why online slots really aren't compensated), the importance of RTP and how small changes in it can really matter, how to choose a game to play and so on - all the result of things I'd learned over the years, in a lot of cases through knowledgeable folks here at CM, sharing their own wisdom.

The issue you seem to have snorky, and I'm going to say this as politely as I can, is that you just don't seem to learn, the very fact you've started this thread, wielding your trusty sword of justice in the form of a sub-10K spin sample on a HV Megaways Prag (which Lemon has explained has a really lumpy win distribution), as somehow finally providing conclusive proof that online slots aren't random, is kind of...... worrying.

So yes, I did contact 3Dice about the terrible start I got off to on Arctic, they checked their backend and agreed my results were bad but within the scope of what the game could deliver, and that it wasn't malfunctioning (they also gave me a few comps as it was running so badly for me). Enzo from 3Dice was also active on the thread (previously linked, it's all still there to read), explaining more about the maths of the game, and by the end of the thread, it was starting to even out for me and gravitate towards T-RTP. I also learned something, and gained new knowledge in the process, and was happy to carry on playing Arctic over the years - I really grew to like the game, complete with its tricksy maths profile, but was always mindful of what it was capable of when I caught it in a bad mood.

With all due respect, the difference is that I was questioning what I thought was potentially suspect gameplay, had a load of stuff explained to me and learned a lesson to go forward with, whereas you're still shouting at the clouds about it all being corrupt and bent and legalised robbery eleven years later, have multiple folks here at CM try to give you a balanced explanation for what you're experiencing, which you basically just ignore, whilst still bloody well playing at online casinos!

Moreover, you're voluntarily giving them your money, which isn't traditionally how robbery works.....