Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

This has been a perfect example of why we NEED Regulation.

Any casino management can go 'bad' given the right circumstances.

If this casino uses the excuse that they are not paying, simply because the person that got ripped offed by them had the balls to complain in public...

Then the casino management are a REAL bunch of crooks that deserve to be put in jail.

If these clip joint casinos and their criminal minded management don't like their ripoffs made public then they should not rip people off in the first place...

Don't forget that this whole thing was a ripoff designed by the casino management from the start...

The terms were IMPOSSIBLE to meet and they knew it... obviously blatant theft by the casino from start to finish.

BTW Bryan - You can't Blackmail the innocent...
 
I've certainly lost lots of bonuses there in the past playing large-ish hands.

Palace Group: I'm sorry for unintentionally breaking your terms when I busted out. Will Neteller be alright for my refunds? :)

Let us know when they refund your deposits Liquuid. I'll check back later. :rolleyes:

Yet another post about how there is problems with rogue casinos...we know and all we got to say is we told you so...

Did you even read this whole thread? This is NOT a rogue casino, or at least they weren't. This was one of the absolute best casinos/casino groups out there. That's what is most disturbing IMO.

EDIT: After reading Lots0's posts, I wanted to clarify my own comment regarding blackmail. I do agree there are players who will try and use this forum and others to sway public opinion and influence a casino's decision...even when it is obvious that the player is in the wrong. But you know, as Lots0 said, you can't blackmail the innocent. In this case, I personally do not view the casino as innocent, and don't believe they left the OP with any other choice. Just wanted to make sure that I made it clear that I do believe there are players who will try and use a "blackmail" type tactic...it happens. And people usually see right through it....or I hope so anyway.
 
Jeeze Rob, you are so conservative. I reckon it will be 100x at least.

LOL Chu, you are most likely right my friend and the damn thing about the whole issue is that it was senseless of Spin Palace to let this escape their powers to settle it quick and keep this issue quite. They used to be a great casino IMO and I also played there a lot back in the day.
 
I don't want to hijack the thread... but only casinos that real are cheaters need to worry about being "Blackmailed" on forum boards like this.

The honest casinos behave quite differently when false accusations are leveled at them... The casino, Bryan and the regulars here come out and expose the poster as a fraud... I have seen it happen here many many times.

Then thread that started out in an attempt to 'blackmail' the casino ends up being a very positive advertisement for the casino...
 
...As soon as you post in a message board trying to whip up public support and damage a company's reputation, it looks like blackmail from the casino's perspective, and in most cases they will drop any consideration of paying winnings....
This was a general sweeping comment that applies to when people post complaints in message boards. It wasn't intended to be thread specific.
 
And a reminder to those who promote Palace Group.

If they treat their players like this, how will they treat their affiliates?

Sorry, I had to.
 
And a reminder to those who promote Palace Group.

If they treat their players like this, how will they treat their affiliates?

Sorry, I had to.
I think a better worded (specific) comment would be, "If they treat a player who broke their terms and conditions like this, how would they treat an affiliate who breaks a similar one?"

And lest we forget - most affiliates are players.
 
I think a better worded (specific) comment would be, "If they treat a player who broke their terms and conditions like this, how would they treat an affiliate who breaks a similar one?"

And lest we forget - most affiliates are players.

As stated by an overwhelming majority a totally unfair term. As was the term a certain group used a while ago..
 
And a reminder to those who promote Palace Group.

If they treat their players like this, how will they treat their affiliates?

Sorry, I had to.

None of this is the least bit funny Spider, but you made me chuckle. It's the irony. After you posted about the term in the Grand Prive affy contract, I posted the actual term. You know....the management reserves the right to blah, blah (FU clause). The reply I got was that those terms are standard in every contract, but that they would never hold up in a court of law. No kidding they wouldn't.....problem is, exactly which court of law do you complain to? I sure would like to know so that this player can file suit.
 
You know, I just got home...and while I was out I was thinking about this thread (yeah I know, a bit OC). Anyway, I wanted to make it crystal clear that any comments I made/make here are directed at Spin Palace specifically. I know some of you have your pitchforks raised at Bryan, and while I personally don't agree with his opinion on this....let's not forget what he did accomplish here. Getting a casino to actually rewrite their T&C's is no small task, especially in the short amount of time it took them to do it. It's huge, and it will be of benefit to many players down the road. I hope that everyone remembers that part of it too. And it's why I mentioned Fortune Lounge in this thread. If he can have them revisit the term in their T&C's that is virtually identical, that is another big plus. Maybe that will save another player from going through this. At the very least, it would provide some clarity in their terms.

That being said, for me personally...this isn't over or resolved until the OP has his money.
 
No kidding they wouldn't.....problem is, exactly which court of law do you complain to? I sure would like to know so that this player can file suit.

To me it seems like casinos are not legally accountable. Is there any known case of someone suing an online casino? I suppose you would have to go to court in Malta if they're registered there. I'm not sure if it's even possible.
 
The Palace group legal challenges

To me it seems like casinos are not legally accountable. Is there any known case of someone suing an online casino? I suppose you would have to go to court in Malta if they're registered there. I'm not sure if it's even possible.

I was never in the business of blackmailing a casino here (fat chance) I was about getting paid for winning at a casino and then the casino failing to pay me for some made up reason and also for effecting change. I want the rules of online pay to be FAIR nothing more nothing less. If I went to a land based casino and was treated like this, "oh we're not paying you that 2.4k sir" I would leave the casino with 2.4k worth of their goods and chattels or die trying. Why should it be any different here just because the perpetrators are on the end of a phone - in Malta (is it?). I'm sick of corporations in general acting like this and hiding behind a phone. It's time for me and you to take action. Never mind being British and just "not going there anymore" let's get in their faces and start dictating to them instead of being dictated to, we're their customers fer chrissake! Deliberately writing rules that in some narrow situations can mean that you dont have to pay is WRONG you're a casino mostly you WIN! I bet your owners dont drive clapped out old Fiestas! When you lose, you pay out. Simple as, end of. You offered a game, I played, I won you didn't pay.

I claim SHENANIGANS!
 
Palace Group Spin Palce et al

Well I've read the whole thread and I'm with the original poster. He won and the casino didn't pay. Would anyone accept this from a reputable online casino or land based casino if they won? No. It's very clear to me that the casino group in question are extracting the urine. We should organise a Palace Group boycott until they pay the OP and make their rules completely clear and promise to apply them fairly, something which obviously hasn't happend here. No get out clauses for imaginative interpretations that beat the player thank you. Just straight up here's what you can and can't do. Until then, my money at least will not be finding it's way into The Palace groups pockets. I'm gutted that they think they can get away with this and even more so that senior members of this group don't back the players when the casinos act this way. Yes, the OP broke a rule if you read it one way but if you read it from another way he didn't. Rules should not be there to trap people. They shouldn't be open to interpretation. I dont see how any casino or casino group can be called fair or be in CM's hotlist after they have acted this way. Is it fair to include and apply a rule like this, no. Is it really that hard to write something unambiguous that serves your purpose? Palace group, you deliberately put something in your rules for just this sort of eventuality and now you are being hung for it, serves you right. I hope your crummy outfit turns up forever more on google as the group that robs its customers.

Chad.

p.s. here's an example of a nice clear ruling from CM's best casino 32 Red regarding the amount you can wager:

In the interests of fair gaming therefore, players may not place individual bets equal to or in excess of 25% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met.

What could be simpler? All casinos should copy this into their rules. 32 red ROCK!

Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.

This is the updated version of Spin Palace rules...

See how 32 Red talks as though you are an honest customer and how they state their rules clearly to you? See how Spin Palaces terms are all about your (likely) irregular play? I for one don't want to do business with a company that doesn't trust me.

Spin Palace/The Palace Group, bad management, bad staff, alienates customers, no doubt rewards managers for finding creative ways to not pay winners and shuts down.

32Red (groupo) Good management, good staff, keeps customers, makes money, stays open, wins CM best casino award *again* and makes millionaires of it's owners.

Where the head leads..
 
The popularity of an idea or notion does not make it true or valid. Reference "flat earth" and "earth-centered solar system" for details.

A scientific idea's popularity says nothing of it's validity. The popularity, however, of an idea on how institutions that serve the public should behave is highly relevant. Ethical questions are not served well by truth values or validity tests, they are better served by consensus. So in this case the dramatic unpopularity of this casino's actions for the people it serves should be taken as a serious problem.


Originally Posted by CM You received your deposit back so there is no loss here on your part.

It is true that the player had no nominal loss. It is also true that the player experienced a huge risk-adjusted loss. The player would have experienced no loss at all only on the absurd condition that the casino would have refunded any of the player's losses upon discovery of the contractual breach.

It is highly misleading to imply that no loss occurred here.

They exercised their right on confiscating your winnings, and that's what they did.

That's what they did, to be sure. It is a bit unsettling to know that land casinos in places like the United States claim no such rights due in part to the outcomes when attempts have been made to invoke similar "rights".

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Grosjean
 
The popularity, however, of an idea on how institutions that serve the public should behave is highly relevant. Ethical questions are not served well by truth values or validity tests, they are better served by consensus. So in this case the dramatic unpopularity of this casino's actions for the people it serves should be taken as a serious problem.

Excellent point and superbly stated!

Unfortunately we're talking about apples and acorns here. The statement that prompted my example was:

... I believe that many here believe that the OP has been treated unfairly and should be given his winnings.

I believe that there are two conclusions being drawn there, one factual and the other ethical.

In the first case, "the OP has been treated unfairly", we are dealing with a statement of fact (sort of), namely that the OP was treated different or harsher than others. I believe this is quite wrong. I don't see how the OP was treated differently than everyone else. Break Terms, expect repercussions. Hence the statement that the number of opinions on that subject don't change the facts.

The second issue, that the OP should be given his winnings, is clearly a matter of subjective opinion and I can certainly see that your argument is applicable there. That said, I still disagree with your conclusion that popularity of him being paid makes it necessary, or even right, that the casino do so.

The bottom line is that you could make this any casino and any remotely similar circumstance and the "consensus" would be the same: if there is money on the table players will side with players the vast majority of the time.

Over the years I have seen and dealt with countless cases where players dispute a casino's actions on the grounds that "it should be" done a certain way, usually a way that would benefit the player. This ignores the fundamental truth that casinos are not there to benefit the player, they are there to provide entertainment, to allow players to play games with money. And because it's money there are necessarily a lot of rules in place. "Should" and "ought to" and "popular opinion says" and all the rest of it are, more often than not, pretty much beside the point.

So, my point was and is that a lot of people saying one thing or another doesn't prove anything. Yes, it does indicate what the casino might do if it wants to win a popularity contest -- this second, there'll be a new one instantaneously -- but that is seldom a good way to make policy. This is true for many reasons not the least of which is that it says nothing of what makes sense in the long run.

Which brings us (sort of) back to the fundamental question here: is the casino responsible for a player saying "Yes" to Terms that he later wishes he had said "No" to? My point was and is that it is the player who must be responsible because only the player can protect himself from ending up in that situation over and over again.

It's quite possible to imagine an infinite number of crappy casino Terms out there. Who's job is it to protect the player from those? Primarily it must be the player's responsibility.

Notice that good advice often comes in a form somewhat like "don't eat yellow snow". The "here's where to complain if you don't like the flavour of the snow you've just eaten" version of that is much less useful because it is fundamentally flawed: people should not (generally speaking) eat oddly coloured snow. The responsibility for avoiding something unpleasant must always fall to the person who has the "yes" or "no" decision to put themselves there.

Of course there are exceptions and exemptions and extenuating circumstances and yadda yadda yadda. The point is that players must accept responsibility for not putting their tits in the wringer. This whole thing is going to go -- is going! -- to hell in a handbasket if players continue to refuse to accept that responsibility.
 
New Rule Nonsense from Spin Palace

I emailed Spin Palace last night and said pay me! This morning I woke up to another different factually incorrect explanation as to why they hadnt paid me..

Please note that as you placed a few big bets on high risk games and then went to work out your wagering on lower risk games, this is considered as bonus abuse.

In actual fact, I went from 3cp - house edge 2.5% (some might say low risk) to slots - which payout about 91% (highest risk in the whole casino) exactly the opposite to what they are saying is true. Given that this is the case, perhaps you can now,

Pay Me!
 
I emailed Spin Palace last night and said pay me! This morning I woke up to another different factually incorrect explanation as to why they hadnt paid me..



In actual fact, I went from 3cp - house edge 2.5% (some might say low risk) to slots - which payout about 91% (highest risk in the whole casino) exactly the opposite to what they are saying is true. Given that this is the case, perhaps you can now,

Pay Me!

So now they are claiming you "bonus abused them" ??
 
I think a better worded (specific) comment would be, "If they treat a player who broke their terms and conditions like this, how would they treat an affiliate who breaks a similar one?"

Which brings us (sort of) back to the fundamental question here: is the casino responsible for a player saying "Yes" to Terms that he later wishes he had said "No" to? My point was and is that it is the player who must be responsible because only the player can protect himself from ending up in that situation over and over again.

Which term did the player break? He didn't bet the majority (> 50%) of his starting bankroll which was the only thing the terms clearly prohibited. And if the term itself was written ambiguously then the interpretation which is favourable to the weaker party (the player) should prevail.
 
Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.

I don't know why you're all thanking the casino so much for changing the terms. They are still just as crappy. I've quoted the new and updated version and highlighted in bold the parts that can still be used to screw the player over in pretty much any circumstance.

I have no idea what they mean by "equal" and "zero" in their context. I take "low margin" bets to mean games with a low house edge - but what is considerered to be low? 0.5%? 1%? I presume by "hedge betting" they mean betting red and black at the same time of roulette or similar, but they have no exactly made this clear.

I'm under the impression that "low margin" bets count towards playthough at the palace group:

a) Play at certain games will contribute a different percentage of the playthrough requirement:
100% - all Slots and all Parlor Games
8% - all Table Pokers, all Roulettes, all Video/Power Pokers (except All Aces and Jacks or Better), all Blackjacks (except Classic Blackjack) and Casino War
0% (excluded games) - Classic Blackjack, all Aces Video/Power Pokers, Jacks or Better Video/Power Pokers, all Baccarats, all Craps, Red Dog, Sic Bo

In the 8% bracket they include most VP and blackjack, which most likely would fall under the "low margin" definition. So if you play these allowed games, you are breaking the T&Cs in the first quote.

The new terms are still a complete shambles.
 
Which term did the player break? He didn't bet the majority (> 50%) of his starting bankroll which was the only thing the terms clearly prohibited.

Not how I read it at all. The original Term said "single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus". The key word here is "balance" which is quite different than "starting bankroll".

Are we having the same discussion? Based on the original Term, whatever it's merits or lack thereof, the violation is obvious. Or so it seems to me.
 
Spin Palace/Palace Group Nonsense

So now they are claiming you "bonus abused them" ??

Yup. They have now gone through the following explanations.

Originally they said, I made low risk bets to clear the WR playing slots.

They then said that I broke the rules by betting the majority of my balance on hands 3 and 4.

Now they say I went from a high risk game to a low risk game (when exactly the opposite is true) and claim that I am a bonus abuser.

Cant get their story straight, clearly ruffled, should pay the player.
 
The only bonus abuse here is the casino.

Again, had you lost, which was the more likely case with your betting strategy, the casino would NOT have refunded you. You never stood a chance of winning.

SpinPalace is committing fraud and theft.

Cheers for getting them to change their TC, and jeers for the fact that it doesn't matter one iota - they are not abiding by them and are quite willing to steal from a player. And total bollocks to anyone who says they are sticking by their original T&C - the ones where it was mathematically impossible for the player NOT to violate!!

If this is acceptable behavior for an accredited casino, just what exactly do you have to do to not be accredited?
 
Are we having the same discussion? Based on the original Term, whatever it's merits or lack thereof, the violation is obvious. Or so it seems to me.

They shouldn't be sticking to the original term. It wasn't just a crappy and badly written term, it was entirely different in meaning to the one now in place (which he didn't break) and as deltoid says, it was mathematically impossible for the player not to violate if he didn't get lucky right at the start.

The casino continuing to apply the original term amounts to rogue behaviour IMO.
 
If this is acceptable behavior for an accredited casino, just what exactly do you have to do to not be accredited?

You know, along this line of thinking.....if an accredited casino, or a casino carrying the eCOGRA seal, is allowed to act this way, what incentive do the good casinos have to continue to do the right and fair thing? What do you think the 32Reds, and the Roxy Palaces, and the Ladbrokes and the Canbets, and others....how do you think they look at this? I mean the casinos who DON'T engage in this type of behaviour. If you were one of the really good operators who wouldn't dream of just arbitrarily confiscating winnings cause the moon was full while Mercury was in retrograde.....wouldn't you start to ask yourself what standard the other operators are being held to?

And if the bar has fallen this low, that this type of behavious is sanctioned, whether it be this site,or eCOGRA...or even just generally accepted by webmasters who promote them...wouldn't you start to think that this may be a good way to cut a few corners and save yourself a few bucks? Why go out of your way to treat players in a fair and ethical manner, when it will serve you just as well to treat them like shit?

I sure don't like the precedent that this sets here, not for this site, not for eCOGRA....just not at all.

EDIT: Speaking of eCOGRA, they seem to have been largely overlooked in this. I see no reason why Bryan should take all the heat for his opinion. In that regard, Gingeanth (wish you'd chosen an easier name, lol), I'm gonna send an email to Andrew at eCOGRA. Won't do a lick of good I'm sure, but never hurts to make sure your opinion gets heard. I don't want to reread, but if I'm not mistaken, I think that you said you filed a complaint with Tex Rees, it was denied, and you even appealed? It is exactly cases like this that help to form the negative opinion that some have of eCOGRA. They are not helping themselves at all. Anyway, gonna send it off now.
 

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