Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

gingeanth89

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 1, 2009
Location
Winsford
I recently had a terrible experience with Spin Palace of the Palace Group.

I made a new account, deposited 150 and got a 100% matching bonus. Balance 300. Ive checked their terms and conditions and I can play 3 Card Poker which is great because thats what I normally play at land based casinos.

1st Hand, bet 120, call - lose.
2nd Hand, bet 60, fold
3rd Hand, bet 90, fold
4th Hand bet my remaining 30 quid and hit a straight flush! Happy Day! 2700.

I go to withdraw, but my balance is locked as the wager requirements have not yet been met. I play slots, eventually clearing the wager requirement and then cash out a tidy 2400.

I receive an email from Spin Palace asking me for ID and then another email offering me a 20% bonus on the full amount if I cancel my withdrawal with no strings. Tempting though this is, Im a bit short on funds recently so I decline the special extra bonus and ask them to just pay me.

Two days later I check my neteller account and The Palace Group have deposited 150 with me. WTF? I immediately contact support and ask them where the rest of my money is. They email back and say that their risk department has confiscated my winnings and the decision is final. After a few more emails they quote the following rule:

"Your withdrawals are more likely to be confiscated due to you breaking the terms and conditions of the casino. As per casino terms and conditions, before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, **placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus**, all of which shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Should the Casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings."

Here`s a quote from the eCogra ruling (against me)

* 1st bet, wagered 120 40% of balance and bonus and lost
* 2nd bet, wagered 60 33% of balance and bonus and lost
* 3rd bet, wagered 90 75% of balance and bonus and lost
* 4th bet, wagered remaining 30 and won 2700 with a straight flush 100% of balance and bonus

Your 3rd and 4th bets are in breach of the clause and as such the operator is within his rights to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings. When the operator reviews an account for irregular playing patterns they take the original bets, the way in which wagering was met and other factors into account before making a final decision.

Im shocked. I didnt increase my bet size but because I was losing and my balance was going down the percentage of my balance being bet was going up.

A simple argument shows just how unfair this rule really is. If I had deposited 10 and gotten a 10 bonus then played jackpot slots at 1 a spin, losing the first 19 spins then hitting a big jackpot on the last spin I would have wagered 100% of my balance on the last spin breaking the rule and had my winnings confiscated. Does that sound fair to you? The whole Palace Group has this term hidden away deep in their Terms and Conditions. They all have the eCogra "safe and FAIR" seal. What was I supposed to do? Decrease my bet size after every loss to stay within their rules? What about if I had..Eventually Id be betting 1 a hand..then 50p...then 25p and so on and so forth to inifinty. I feel like I have been straight ripped off by this group. Your thoughts Casinomeister members? Anyone else had this sort of experience? I am doubly gutted because I found the casino on the Casinomeister accredited list and they are eCogra registered. I didnt think anyone on these lists would risk their good standing by hiding behind this sort of terrible rule which seems clearly designed to claw back wins in any way possible.

A very unhappy Spin Palace/Palace Group customer.

Anthony
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
FTR Anthony had PABd and we looked at the terms and conditions, and whether we like it or not, they were broken with the last bet with the 4th Hand.

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Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus, all of which shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Should the Casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the Casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.

If it wasn't for the clause that describes the "irregular betting pattern" I would have ruled in favor of the player. But the terms and conditions cover this - as do all of the Fortune Lounge and Palace group casinos.

Even though many of us may not like these terms, they are there. The casino has the right to dictate how bonuses are played out.

IMO the terms and conditions should state "majority of the deposit and bonus", not "majority of the balance and bonus" or even "majority of the balance".

The casinos (most FL and Palace Casinos) ought to revisit this term to make sure they aren't catching dolphins in the tuna net.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
And to nip this in the bud beforehand, this is a Casinomeister issue, not an eCOGRA one. Do not derail this thread. Thank you.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
With rules like that...

I think this outfit needs to be blacklisted... Even if they are 'covered' by ecogra and their 'rules'.

This is outrageous... In my opinion this is nothing more than theft by the casino.

sarcasm - why not just have a rule that says players can't win? Oh how stupid I am... that is the rule they quoted...
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Off in to my personal rogue pit (E: which is big and deep already). Pure and simple theft, hope they go bust.

That term could be used to void any winnings when your balance is low enough.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
This is pure theft. The 4th hand was played at a value that was less than the previous 3 hands although it counted for 100% of the balance. What if only $1 was remaining. Would a bet of $1 count as 100% and winnings of $90 be confiscated. What if he had bet $29? Would they have paid? Shouldnt the terms and conditions mean a percentage of the original balance rather than the remaining balance. That would make more sense in my opinion.

I am also outraged by the fact they offered a 20% bonus to the player if he cancelled his withdrawal. Sounds like Club Dice (Playtech) is back. This offer, to a certain extent, implies that they were willing to process the withdrawal and did not find any breaches of the Terms and Conditions during play. I hope that we can be shown this email from Spin Palace. Meanwhile, if Spin Palace continues this kind of rogue behavior they are just spinning themselves into trouble.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
I am just doing a review of all the Palace Group casino's rules... If they all have this 'rule' I will add them all to my sites blacklist today...
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
I'm terribly confused.... (I know, doesn't take much to confuse me when it comes to casino T&C)

If this player had LOST that last $30 bet would his deposit have been returned ... since he broke their T&C?

Let's say this player had $25 left (looking at the last hand) and he went to slots and bet $25 on ONE pull on say... Legacy.... and then won... would this still break their T&C?
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Having read everything again I am doubly convinced that the balance that was referred to was the original balance of $300 and not the remaining balance of $30 for the 4th hand and $120 for the 3rd hand. Frankly, I would have felt more comfortable if they pointed their fingers at the 1st hand which was of the greatest value for the 4 hands in question. Frankly how can you say that within the same bankroll where you only played a few hands, the bet with the lowest value was the culprit that broke the bonus rules. Hogwash!
 

Deeplay

New World Order
webmeister
CAG
mm1
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Location
The biG Eu
Well the Terms really suck. Yet another for my own pit to avoid in the future. Vague terms which basicially mean we dont have to pay you if we want. Totaly sucks but then always read the small print and if doubt just dont go there. I know I wont be.
 

gingeanth89

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
Joined
May 1, 2009
Location
Winsford
Further info

To be clear - I bet 10% of my original balance on that last hand but 100% of the remaining balance. Here are copies of their emails..

First the congratulations email.

from Spin Palace Support <[email protected]>
to Anthony <XXXX>
date Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:30 PM
subject Your Withdrawal [XXXX]

Hi Anthony,

Account - XXXX

Congratulations on your recent withdrawal!!!

As an online casino, we are extremely proud to have been honoured with eCOGRA's 'Player's Seal of Approval Award' and fully intend to retain this accolade. eCOGRA's Players Seal of Approval is awarded to those casinos which have achieved compliance with eCOGRA's high standards and demonstrated that:

- Games are fair
- The casino operates honestly and behaves responsibly (!!!!)
- Monetary deposits are safe and winning bets are paid in a timely manner. (!!!!!!)

As such, and to abide with eCOGRA's rules, we kindly ask that you submit copies of the following identification documents:

So I think at this point that everything is good and I will be paid.

Then their special offer email.

Starred from Spin Palace Support <[email protected]>
to Anthony <XXXX>
date Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:39 PM
subject Congrats on your winnings! Want more money? [XXXX]

Hi Anthony,

Account number: XXXX

This is a quick email regarding a special offer I would like to make to you.

Firstly congratulations on your win at the casino of 2413!

We would like to offer a bonus of 20% on whatever you decide to reverse on your withdrawal, it is up to you on how much of the withdrawal you do but it means you can have up to 482.60 of free money!

Also with this bonus you will be able to withdraw at anytime, you just lose whatever bonus balance you have remaining so there is no lock-in.

In order to claim your bonus that I offered to you contact our support team
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or from the banking section of the Spin Palace Online Casino software, via live chat!

Now at this point as far as I am concerned, they have accepted my win and Ill be paid.

But no. Thats when i got the email (from my first post) saying they are invoking their special rule to deny cashouts.

To make matters worse, when I took my complaint to eCogra their rep got back to me pretty much immediately saying that my case was lost. Spin Palace had told eCogra that I had bet my entire balance on each of four hands of 3CP (a lie) and then played slot machines at 1.60 a spin to clear the wagering requirement. It said nothing about how I won at 3CP being the rule breaker, only how I had played the bonus out, on the slot machines. The reason given for me not being paid? Betting on slot machines is hedge betting.

I emailed eCogra again and explained that playing slot machines is about as far from hedge betting as it is possible to get. They said they would "re-investigate". In my opinion, the case wasnt even investigated in the first place. I complained to eCogra, Spin Palace lied, eCogra accepted what the casino said and ruled accordingly.

Anyway..After the eCogra rep got back to me a second time as you know they said this time that I had broken the rule by betting my whole balance on the 3rd and 4th hands of 3CP. Lets be clear, on the 4th hand I bet 30 just 10% of my original balance.

Shout it from the treetops folks, if you play Palace Group casinos and accept a bonus as it stands YOU CAN NOT WIN.

Or am I wrong?

Anthony.
 

deltoid

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Location
canada
Pure bonus abuse. By the CASINO.

So let's say you're playing $5 video poker and you lose everything, down to your last $5. Well, guess what, you win a royal flush on your last bet! OHHH too bad, you were betting more than 50% or more of your balance for the last two bets, we get to keep your money! haha!

Unbelievable, completely scum behavior. I don't care if it's in their terms and conditions, they could write you must be wearing a blue hat in order to be eligible to win, it's a complete rip off and this is theft, out right. JUST IMAGINE if this guy had lost everything on his last bet, which was more than likely. Would the casino have refunded his $150??? NO. It's win-win-win for the casino.
 

deucebag

Full Member
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Location
cyberspace
This is rogue behavior IMO. If the player lost, they would not have refunded him.

Granted the terms say you can't bet the majority of your balance, but that is a term that is impossible to adhere to if you go on a losing streak. It is a trap. It is a predatory term. Sooner or later you will have to bet your whole balance, and the casino is free to confiscate your winnings.

Bonus terms and conditions have to be clear and fair, and this one is neither.

The fact that eCogra put their seal on casinos with such terms makes it very clear what a joke they are.
 

lauram

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Location
toronto
The bonus you took was this a opening account bonus or one you applied for?
 
Last edited:

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people to bring up ecogra in this matter.

They are a big part of this...

I understand your position and your decision in regards to the PAB that was filed here at CM.
The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

But... trying to tell folks that they should not discuss ecogra, a big part of the situation is not... logical.

This is not the first time we have heard players state basically the same things... the appearance of a predetermined outcome in player disputes and questionable actions like offering a "20% bonus on reversed withdrawal"... Not even questioned.
 

deltoid

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Location
canada
Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

In my opinion, the player FOLLOWED the rules. They weren't betting more than 50% of their original sum. To extend that to the BALANCE is entirely unreasonable as is almost always the case the player must bet their entire balance!! Reading it any other way leads to the casino ALWAYS having the option of voiding the players win!!
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Bryan your asking a lot when you don't want people to bring up ecogra in this matter.

They are a big part of this...

I understand your position and your decision in regards to the PAB that was filed here at CM.
The casino was following it's published T&C's and the player should have understood the T&C's before depositing. I think this is understood by most and not liked by just about everyone, however rules are rules.

But... trying to tell folks that they should not discuss ecogra, a big part of the situation is not... logical.

This is not the first time we have heard players state basically the same things... the appearance of a predetermined outcome in player disputes and questionable actions like offering a "20% bonus on reversed withdrawal"... Not even questioned.

The point is that I'm fed up with threads being hijacked, that's all. This thread is about this player's issue, and the issue with these terms and conditions. If it turns into yet another eCOGRA bash then this thread has no relevency to the casinos that publish this term.

As an administrator, I am asking merely to remain focused that's all. :D

This is an old term by the way, it's been there for some time and as far as I know, this is the first time this has been a problem.

In fact, we asked Fortune Lounge to look at this term some time ago:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/fortune-lounge-terms-and-conditions-suggestions.23020/

sdaddy came up with an excellent solution:

sdaddy said:
In place of this problematic "irregular play" clause, Fortune Lounge has to figure out all the types of activity that exploit its bonuses and come up specific with specific, workable rules against them. I gather FL's biggest problem is with players who make large initial bets and then "grind out" the remaining WR on small, low-risk bets. As a good example of how to prevent this, I'll quote the well-written term that Galaxiworld.com has used for years for its bonuses (
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Players cannot bet more than 25% of their original purchase at any given time. For example, if you deposit $500 then the maximum single bet while having the bonus would be $125. Failure to adhere to this rule will cause your cashout to be disallowed.

The key in how the above rule is written is that it specifies what is the maximum of the player's original balance that can be wagered. This will avoid the problems that can arise by specifying the maximum bet of the player's current balance, as FL's term is now constructed.

This was over a year ago, and only now people are complaining about it?
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
Ouh my God! This is absolute nonsense from the casino and ecogra. The reason why the casinos try to limit a bet size when awarding the bonus can be understood somehow. But how can you explain the fact that they accept 120 pounds bet as valid but confiscate the money because of the 4 times smaller bet of 30 pounds??? It makes no any sense at all! No need to say that this is one more (and new) dirty trick of internet casino industry against the gamblers' community.
 

deltoid

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Location
canada
The fact that Galaxiworld has that term, which is quite clear and FAIR, leaves no excuse for Spin Palace. That means that there is only one reason for this term - that they LIKE to have this term just the way it is worded, so that they can void as MANY wins as possible. That we are just hearing about it affecting players doesn't mean much - the fact is, most players online don't read, let alone write, in any forums. (This explains the continued existence of scum like Virtual Group)

Casinos put a lot of thought into their terms and conditions (generally speaking). Do you think they didn't recognize what this term, as it is worded, meant? Do you think that they didn't weigh the alternatives (such as the wording from Galaxiworld?) You bet that they did, and they determined that this term, as worded, would give them maximum leeway in voiding wins!

This is theft, bonus abuse, and out right fraud on the casino's part.
 
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