Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

deucebag

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Do people see the difference? Palace Group and FL, open to interpretation. 32Red, no interpretation involved.

I disagree. What if you at some point bet 10% of your bonus at blackjack. You get a pair of threes and decide to split. You draw an 5 and a 7 for a 8 and 10. You decide to double down on the 10. Suddenly your bet is more than 25% of your balance. Does this mean you have violated the terms? Or is it only the original bet size that counts?

There is certainly interpretation involved here.

Terms & conditions putting limits on what you can bet is not OK IMO. If the casino does not want the player to bet more than a certain amount, that should be solved by lowering the table limits. Otherwise it is too easy to fall into the trap for innocent players.
 

kempe

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From 7Sultans (FortuneLounge):
Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance.

How the bonus system works (first losing your own deposit and afterwards the bonus) it is not possible to make a gamble at the casino when you are down. If he had won the first hand nothing would have been wrong. (Hopefully)

For example a 150 deposit and 150 bonus.
Somebody who keeps losing and let's say only has 10 euro left and goes playing roulette and want to keep up doubling until he reaches 640 giving him a decent win. To reach this target (no matter what game) it will be like 0.05% chance for the player to reach this target. the other 99.95% of the times casino will take the full 150 euro deposit of the customer.

They shouldn't complain if the lucky person that has a good gamble with his last dimes makes a decent win, because all other times they will takes his money in full!

The rules for an accredited / ecogra casino would be that max betsize depends on the INITIAL (bonus) balance..

PS Deucebag also makes a good point. When playing Casino Holdem if you raise the hand you are tripling your initial bet, if Casino want to work like this, they should explicitly state for each and every game HOW you need to bet!
 

spearmaster

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I disagree. What if you at some point bet 10% of your bonus at blackjack. You get a pair of threes and decide to split. You draw an 5 and a 7 for a 8 and 10. You decide to double down on the 10. Suddenly your bet is more than 25% of your balance. Does this mean you have violated the terms? Or is it only the original bet size that counts?

Don't want to take this off track - but the T&Cs clearly state "individual bets" - in your example there are 3 individual bets.
 

gingeanth89

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Palace Group Rules Shananigans!

I used the term shenanigans after the south park episode at the carnival. What was the result of calling shenanigans there ;) It's my birthday today, fingers crossed I get a lovely 2400 birthday pressie from The Palace Group after they realize that this is all some crazy mix up and that they should have paid me in the first place.
 

Casinomeister

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I used the term shenanigans after the south park episode at the carnival. What was the result of calling shenanigans there ;) It's my birthday today, fingers crossed I get a lovely 2400 birthday pressie from The Palace Group after they realize that this is all some crazy mix up and that they should have paid me in the first place.
Happy Birthday :thumbsup:

Darran from the Palace group said he was going to try and make a statement today - he's out of town, so it may be difficult for him. He should have something soon.
 

Jufo

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* 4th bet, wagered remaining 30 and won 2700 with a straight flush 100% of balance and bonus

Doesn't STR Flush pay maximum 40x bet (=1200) if you bet on pair plus only. So you must have run your balance up with more bets. How large were these bets?
 

gingeanth89

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Palace Group Rules Shananigans!

Doesn't STR Flush pay maximum 40x bet (=1200) if you bet on pair plus only. So you must have run your balance up with more bets. How large were these bets?

Four hands only - see first post with copy and paste of the Spin Palace/eCogra info.
 
Last edited:

thelawnet

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Location
UK
How can you win 2700 from 30 on 3cp?

I'm actually quite confused by the OP's thread.

He states:

[start balance is 300, of which 150 is bonus]

1st Hand, bet 120, call - lose.
2nd Hand, bet 60, fold
3rd Hand, bet 90, fold
4th Hand bet my remaining 30 quid and hit a straight flush! Happy Day! 2700.


Why is he calling? I assume he is playing pair plus. You cannot call, it's fully automated. And how does he win 2700 off 30? The payout should be 1230, since the odds are 40:1

Anyway, it's clearly unreasonable to insist that players follow what amounts to a negative progression. By these terms a player depositing 1000, getting a 100bonus, and betting 2.50 a hand on a progressive slot could have their progressive win confiscated if they won on the last spin.

I note that Red Flush casino has a 62 betting limit, I assume only for new players. This is 1/4 of the 250 bonus+deposit starting balance, seems fair to me. There's no way to break the rules (which was supposed to be the point of the EZ gaming system), so no ridiculous situations like this.
 

Jufo

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Location
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Four hands only - see first post with copy and paste of the Spin Palace/eCogra info.

Um it's not possible to win 2700 from 30 bet on 3 Card poker.

thelawnet said:
Why is he calling? I assume he is playing pair plus. You cannot call, it's fully automated. And how does he win 2700 off 30? The payout should be 1230, since the odds are 40:1

My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.
 

spearmaster

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My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.

Are you talking about in this software? If so, something's wrong, because the pair plus bet is an independent bet and is supposed to be paid on all occasions.

I too had this question about the amount but the main issue in my mind was the terms & conditions.
 

dancinggoon

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Nevermind to see such a outright theft from a Casinomeister accredited and ecora proofed casino.

Seems like we all need a team of top lawyers before having a little fun at a casino.... :notworthy

Im wondering what kind of short minded idiots are sitting in their marketing/ promotion department, insteated of paying him and putting the story of somebody who win 2700 with his last small bet on their page/emails, they confisciate his winnings with extrem shady small print in their T&C. :what:

Maybe they are extrem short of money, that they using this term now to confisciate winnings, i suggest anyone to stop playing there, who knows if you might ever get paid...
 

gingeanth89

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Palace Groups Nonsense

The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again. :D
 

Jufo

Three-toed sloth
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Sep 21, 2007
Location
Finland
Are you talking about in this software? If so, something's wrong, because the pair plus bet is an independent bet and is supposed to be paid on all occasions.

Yes, Microgaming 3 Card Poker help says:

"The Pair Plus game has payouts for specific hand combinations. The payouts are not dependent on the Dealers cards.

If you have placed an ante and a Pair Plus bet and you choose to fold, your Pair Plus bet and payout is lost, regardless of the rank of your hand."

Of course it is in your favor to call the ante bet whenever you have a pair or higher but if you bet your whole balance on ante & pair plus you have to redeposit to finish the hand and cannot use the pair plus winnings to pay the call bet, which is the correct way to implement this.
 

spearmaster

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Location
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Yes, Microgaming 3 Card Poker help says:

"The Pair Plus game has payouts for specific hand combinations. The payouts are not dependent on the Dealers cards.

If you have placed an ante and a Pair Plus bet and you choose to fold, your Pair Plus bet and payout is lost, regardless of the rank of your hand."

Of course it is in your favor to call the ante bet whenever you have a pair or higher but if you bet your whole balance on ante & pair plus you have to redeposit to finish the hand and cannot use the pair plus winnings to pay the call bet, which is the correct way to implement this.

FFS... that is plain wrong. There is no "play" position in front of Pair Plus... and it is an independent bet.

Damn good reason to stay away from 3 Card Poker if you like playing Pair Plus and Ante/Play simultaneously... nice find Jufo!
 

spearmaster

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The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again. :D

If you have the email that says you were hedge betting, would you mind sending me a PM?
 

Pinababy69

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Spear, what post are you quoting? I can't find it....did the OP edit something out?

I can't believe that eCOGRA would tell him/her that playing slots is hedge betting. Surely the OP is mistaken/confused? I reread the original post, and to me it looks like they commented only on the OP's first four bets...is that right?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it...caffeine deficiency. But that can't be right. I have a hard time believing that the slot play even came into question, why would it?
 

Casinomeister

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...Who at Casinomeister.com makes the decisions before putting casinos on the accredited list?
I make the decisions. This casino group has been listed here since 2001 - and for the past eight years they have a pretty good track record of treating players fairly.

There are clearly two problems here: the first is your betting style, the second is the wording of this term.

Before I get the collective groan, hear me out and take everything into account of what I'm saying:.

gingeanth89 played in a manner that caused the casino management to take notice and scrutinize his playing patterns. When you grab the attention of a casino manager (this goes for B&Ms as well), you're going to have to hope that you have not violated any of their terms or you'll get the boot.

The casino manager nailed him and applied the "irregular betting" clause. The player played a high risk game (3 card poker), initially placing 4 large bets. He then grinded out the wagering requirements with 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin - a low risk game. This is the reason the casino confiscated his winnings.

The Palace Group might be able to let us know whether this player signed up in concert with others, because this may have been a consideration as well. They'll nail you for "acting in concert" which is a separate term. You see, if you want to beat bonuses, and you have a good plan on how to do this, don't sign up at the same time as your buddies, play the same games, and then try to skirt by the casino managers. They are trained to look out for these type of activities.

Enough ragging on the player - you can put your torches and pitchforks down :p

The second problem is this term. I don't agree with it. Like Spear pointed out, the way it is worded it could be applied to just about anyone. So we have to rely on the objectivity of the casino. This is where trust is involved. With this term we are trusting the casino not to abuse it. So far, this is the first time I am aware of it being applied to anyone.

In my opinion, these terms are seemingly unfair because they give the casino too much room for interpretation. How is "irregular" defined? Well, giving credit to the casino, they do give examples.

It's problematic because this is how most players want to play bonuses - take a chance, and then grind out the wagering requirements. We can't overlook the fact that the player is not guaranteed a win with the first set of bets. He risked his deposit fair and square.

The dilemma is "where is the line drawn?" to be fair to both parties. The casino wants to protect its business; the player wants to win.

The casino needs to revise this term - it should be majority of deposit not balance. I think most everyone would agree that this is fair, right?

...Look I generally agree with the Meister all things considered, but I think he and I have a difference of opinion on this. To me this term is a Blue Hat Term just as the 9k a month term is, if not more!
No I disagree, this is a method that many bonus hunters use to beat the house; the casino has posted the ways that disqualify the winnings.

We cannot lose sight that this is bonus play. If you have a "bonus free" deposit I'm sure you can play it however you want.

As I understood it, the casino will not enter into any discussion, eCogra say the rules are the rules end of and so did you when I tried PAB...
eCOGRA is reviewing this term, I'm sure of it. And yes, you breached this term - that's what you were told. In fact, I don't think anywhere did you deny breaching their terms and conditions.

What we are discussing now is the fairness of this term. The casino will probably enter into a discussion since they are members of this forum. Just as long as the participants of this thread keep it mellow, we can discuss...

Lastly, this player is not banned from the casino - he just had his winnings confiscated.
 

Casinomeister

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Nevermind to see such a outright theft from a Casinomeister accredited and ecora proofed casino.

Seems like we all need a team of top lawyers before having a little fun at a casino.... :notworthy

Im wondering what kind of short minded idiots are sitting in their marketing/ promotion department, insteated of paying him and putting the story of somebody who win 2700 with his last small bet on their page/emails, they confisciate his winnings with extrem shady small print in their T&C. :what:

Maybe they are extrem short of money, that they using this term now to confisciate winnings, i suggest anyone to stop playing there, who knows if you might ever get paid...
I guess you skipped my administrative warning. One more post like this and I'll disable your posting permissions to this thread.

This goes for everyone else as well.
 

Casinomeister

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The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again. :D
That's a misleading comment. She did not state anywhere that it was hedge betting.
 

gingeanth89

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Spin Palace/Palace Group Malarky

Equal, Zero Margin or Hedge Betting is considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes, according to the published T&C's at the time of accepting their bonus offer. The fact that you proceeded to place 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin in order to meet the play-through requirements in a manner that deliberately minimises the risk, in our opinion breaches the T&Cs.

That seems very clear to me. eCogra say Equal, zero margin or hedge betting is considered irregular gaming, followed by the fact that I played a slot to meet the play through requirement deliberately minimizing risk. i.e. playing slots is zero margin/hedging. I cant see how to read it any other way. Educate me!

Ant
 

zap987

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It's very obvious you knew what you were doing and were playing expecting to have a positive EV from the bonus.

That doesn't change the fact that the casino should pay in my opinion, if they want to stop it they should put betting limits in when a bonus is active.
 

dancinggoon

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It looks like no matter what you do is wrong, if you place big bets on table games, you get bootet and if you place small ones on slots, you get bootet too...:what:

The player here did nothing else, as other players do everyday, this is called "RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING"

He played his session, was lucky enough to score a nice win and then he just took care, that he dont loose everything back to the casino!

Gratulation on your discipline! :thumbsup:

I renember to read alot here about responsible gambling, and most other players here, do it the same way, cashing out once they hit a big win.

Sad that a player who played like this guidelines gets burned!
 

thelawnet

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UK
Um it's not possible to win 2700 from 30 bet on 3 Card poker.



My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.

In that case the numbers are wrong. He must have bet substantially more than 30 on the pair plus. The ante bonus is only 5-1, so that doesn't amount to all that much - not enough 2700.

If it were 60 on the pair plus, that would be 2400 win, then 40 each on ante+play, that would add up to about 2700.

But 30?

No.
 

Casinomeister

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Educate me!
My pleasure :D

You said:
The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting.

The actual term that applies to you is the following:

your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus

e.g. means exempli gratia = for example. So they give you examples of what they will review - it's not exhaustive in other words. This is what I believe Tex was referring to. She did not state you were hedge betting.

But this is besides the point. Correct me if I'm wrong, you broke the term on your fourth bet, right? And then went on to grind out the wagering requirements with Megaspin. What were you thinking? You knew they would nail you for this, didn't you?

Or did you miss this term when signing up? There are number of members here who are bonus players who would surely school you on how to not raise red flags. That's what you did, and the casino nailed you. You gave the casino room to use their discretion and they did.
 

thelawnet

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Location
UK
I make the decisions. This casino group has been listed here since 2001 - and for the past eight years they have a pretty good track record of treating players fairly.

There are clearly two problems here: the first is your betting style, the second is the wording of this term.

Before I get the collective groan, hear me out and take everything into account of what I'm saying:.

gingeanth89 played in a manner that caused the casino management to take notice and scrutinize his playing patterns. When you grab the attention of a casino manager (this goes for B&Ms as well), you're going to have to hope that you have not violated any of their terms or you'll get the boot.

The casino manager nailed him and applied the "irregular betting" clause. The player played a high risk game (3 card poker), initially placing 4 large bets. He then grinded out the wagering requirements with 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin - a low risk game. This is the reason the casino confiscated his winnings.

Clearly the latter behaviour is annoying for the casino because they know they have an unprofitable player. But is it wrong under their terms? No, they nabbed him on his earlier bets. And the term under which they nabbed him is unfair because anyone will foul on their last bet.


The Palace Group might be able to let us know whether this player signed up in concert with others, because this may have been a consideration as well. They'll nail you for "acting in concert" which is a separate term. You see, if you want to beat bonuses, and you have a good plan on how to do this, don't sign up at the same time as your buddies, play the same games, and then try to skirt by the casino managers. They are trained to look out for these type of activities.

Unnecessary insinuation IMO.

Lastly, this player is not banned from the casino - he just had his winnings confiscated.

Ha ha ha. I bet that's a great comfort.
 
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