Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

[deltoid]

BTW - and I'd have edited my other post but it's already gotten thanks and I don't want to append stuff to the post that the poster didn't see and thus couldn't judge whether or not it deserved thanks. lol

I think another kudos is due to the Meister for not only leaving this thread open, but for participating in it. It's obvious that you have the foresight and open mindedness to accept different opinions and maybe even change your mind on things. And to actively solicit suggestions is also quite a sign. A lesser webmeister would have locked this thread many pages ago.

I also think that this thread BENEFITS Spin Palace. It allows the players to call this as we see it, and to show them what sort of road they are choosing to walk down by taking this path. They need to ask themselves, do we want to model ourselves after other reputable operations, or the likes of the Virtual Group? Hopefully they will eventually reach the better conclusion, pay the player, and realize the err in this particular decision. They'll be a better casino for it.

 

[maxd]

BTW - and I'd have edited my other post but it's already gotten thanks and I don't want to append stuff to the post that the poster didn't see and thus couldn't judge whether or not it deserved thanks. lol

OT but FYI, you lose the "Thanks" when you edit your post. At least that's what happens when I edit mine (bad habit).

Later: editing to show that "Thanks" is removed.

 

[maxd]

Hi Max,

I think it's fair to call it fraud ....

While I fundamentally disagree with your argument and your conclusions -- and stand by what I said regarding the rabble-rousing -- my bottom line here is that I've had enough of this particular issue. I've said my piece, others have said theirs. Changes are afoot and that's that. O+O.

 

[maxd]

Sorry for the derail here folks, but I've had my fill of this guy spamming ...
Bryan or Max, we're going to need an IP and identity check in aisle three please. Here's Jack's profile ... And here is the profile of a poster from last year named New Orleans....

Good call. We've got a probable match between Jack-whatever and NO. I'll flag Bryan on this so he can get out the Whoop-Ass and do us all a favour.

 

[The Dude]

Admin notes:

The off topic posts concerning the "Thanks" button and editing posts have been removed.

Please note: if you edit your post after it has been thanked - the "thanks" initially disappear, but when you refresh the page - they come back.

I'll also be checking into JoAS and NewOrleans this morning.

Now back to our regular programming

 

[suzecat]

Good call. We've got a probable match between Jack-whatever and NO. I'll flag Bryan on this so he can get out the Whoop-Ass and do us all a favour.

Well I can't wait! Happen to be just in the mood for some good Whoop-Ass

The off topic posts concerning the "Thanks" button and editing posts have been removed.

Please note: if you edit your post after it has been thanked - the "thanks" initially disappear, but when you refresh the page - they come back.

I'll also be checking into JoAS and NewOrleans this morning.

Now back to our regular programming

Ah hell! Mybe I'll have to settle for a good derail

 

[KasinoKing]

Hi Max,

I think it's fair to call it fraud - the casino presents the opportunity to win, and have a fair chance at it. But the terms, as written, and as you rightly pointed out, made it mathematically impossible to win. That's fraud.

First, this is not a complex situation - the Spin Palace had a term that basically invalidated any and all wins at the discretion of the casino. MIGHT sound similar to what you copied and pasted from other casinos, however Spin Palace made it mathematically impossible to win, whereas the other terms did not have that mathematical certainty.

Look, I agree with most of what you are posting, but can you PLEASE stop saying that - it's simply not true.
As pointed out in my post #234, not far above yours:

Just not true. The rule could only be invoked if a player used his entire remaining balance on a bet, won and went on to complete the full WR. This is extremely unlikely.
Mathematically it is far more likely for him to bust out, so to say it is impossible not to break the rule is far from correct IMO. The fact that this is the first time a situation like this has been posted here despite the rule (apparently) being in place for over a year just shows how rare it is.

Also I don't recall Max agreeing with your take on the bonus, can you show me the post where he did please?

KK

 

[The Dude]

...
I think another kudos is due to the Meister for not only leaving this thread open, but for participating in it. It's obvious that you have the foresight and open mindedness to accept different opinions and maybe even change your mind on things. And to actively solicit suggestions is also quite a sign. A lesser webmeister would have locked this thread many pages ago.

Thanks - as long as members can set their emotions aside and discuss issues with a level head, there is usually no problem. As soon as people start ranting and name calling, then it gets stupid.

There are two sides of every coin, and with a balanced discussion we can progress and improve things that need to be fixed. Hopefully other webmasters will understand the importance of this and disallow name calling and juvenile rants.

Lead by example.

I also think that this thread BENEFITS Spin Palace...

In the long run it will benefit everybody. This thread has raised an important topic: Casinos with subjective or "unfair" terms and conditions and their place in the "Accredited Casinos" section. This is something I'm reviewing at the moment and will be taking appropriate actions so that the Accredited Casino section remains valid and ensures fairness.

 

[hitobito2005]

Look, I agree with most of what you are posting, but can you PLEASE stop saying that - it's simply not true.
As pointed out in my post #234, not far above yours:

If you bust out you still break the terms. The only way to not break the terms is to do resonably well from the start and not get down to a small balance. It is mathematically possible to win, but you'd be very likely to break the original terms if you took the bonus by either busting out or coming back for a lucky win from your last bet (as the OP did).

Whether or not it's fair I don't know but I don't like how you can break every rule (even laws?) in the book but if you bust out it's fine, the casino won't say another word. However, if you win they have a whole load of ambiguous rules that can be invoked to confiscate your winnings. It weights everything further in the casinos favour, allows them to profit from people who break their badly written and confusing terms.

 

[gingeanth89]

Spin Palace Still Havent Paid Me

Bryan, what are the criteria for accredited casinos anyway?

I would have thought fair, quick payers, representative available on this site, good communication with players. It would be interesting to see what things there are on the qualifying list.

Incidentally Spin Palace, everyone makes mistakes from time to time, its never too late to say sorry (and pay up). Up to about 10,000 views on this thread now. If you publicly admit you made a mistake here and offer to pay me the outstanding amount, thats 10,000 potential customers who will feel good about you. Youd probably make back what you paid me in deposits in less than an hour.

Anthony

 

[The Dude]

Bryan, what are the criteria for accredited casinos anyway?

I would have thought fair, quick payers, representative available on this site, good communication with players. It would be interesting to see what things there are on the qualifying list...

Anthony

It's right here:

How the choice is made: I will meet face to face with the persons managing the casino, poker room, or skill game property before it's listed on this site to ensure that the following criteria and standards are agreed upon.

* They must be able to take care of any player issue swiftly and professionally
* They must adhere to their own Terms and Conditions.
* They must only use seals, banners, logos, etc. to which they are entitled.
* They must have no affiliation with "fake" players' advocacy groups.
* They must be willing to divulge information about their business.
* They must have a clean history of fairness towards their customers.
* They must not use spam as a marketing tool.
* They must be licensed in a jurisdiction that offers gambling licenses.*
https://www.casinomeister.com/accredited-casinos/

I don't think many of us would deny that Spin Palace hasn't upheld a stellar rep in the past nine years. To suggest that they are some dodgy operation is not a real accurate portrayal.

 

[gingeanth89]

thanks

It's right here:

How the choice is made: I will meet face to face with the persons managing the casino, poker room, or skill game property before it's listed on this site to ensure that the following criteria and standards are agreed upon.

* They must be able to take care of any player issue swiftly and professionally
* They must adhere to their own Terms and Conditions.
* They must only use seals, banners, logos, etc. to which they are entitled.
* They must have no affiliation with "fake" players' advocacy groups.
* They must be willing to divulge information about their business.
* They must have a clean history of fairness towards their customers.
* They must not use spam as a marketing tool.
* They must be licensed in a jurisdiction that offers gambling licenses.*
https://www.casinomeister.com/accredited-casinos/

I don't think many of us would deny that Spin Palace hasn't upheld a stellar rep in the past nine years. To suggest that they are some dodgy operation is not a real accurate portrayal.

I did not suggest that! I just wondered what the qualifying rules were.

 

[rpalmer83]

I always view confiscation of winnings as a terrible practice. Refunding just a deposit is outrageous when a player has taken risk with his bets just like any player regardless of betsize or bonuses involved. The worst case scenario they should have considered is to confiscate the bonus and winnings made from the bonus but paid the player his deposit and the proportion of winnings not won from the bonus.

As I already pointed out in an example earlier in the thread:

Player Deposits 200, recieves 200 bonus, places a 400 bet wins 35x that bet giving a balance of 14,000. Player proceeds to do low stakes bets to fulfil the wager requirement and drops to 12,000. Player cashes in. Casino decides that the player has blatently abused the bonus promotion and confiscates the bonus and its winnings but pays the player 6,000 which is what he would have won without the bonus in play.

That is the fair approach to both the player and the house, any lesser approach and IMO it is nothing short of blatent fraud and cheating by the casino. I personally will not play at Palace group casinos again unless this player is paid in full. Plenty of other casinos around which do not behave like this. He didn't set out to abuse the bonus, that is crystal clear in my eyes. He had a lucky win on his last bet and they won't pay him. It's outrageous.

 

[Pinababy69]

I don't think many of us would deny that Spin Palace hasn't upheld a stellar rep in the past nine years.

Completely agree on that, and I'm still hoping they're going to come around. I haven't given up on them yet.

 

[lots0]

I don't think many of us would deny that Spin Palace hasn't upheld a stellar rep in the past nine years. To suggest that they are some dodgy operation is not a real accurate portrayal.

Agree.

However, it is not their past behavior that is being questioned here.


To SP Management:
Everyone makes mistakes... It's how you handle the mistakes you make that really matters.
How you 'fix' your mistakes is how people judge you.
Man Up and pay the player...


Bryan, it is to your credit that you have kept this thread open and have only edited off topic posts (I know someone else already said that - But it's worth repeating).

 

[chuchu59]

Completely agree on that, and I'm still hoping they're going to come around. I haven't given up on them yet.

However, they have never encountered such a poor economic environment before either. I am afraid that many other casinos will use these methods to confiscate winnings in the forseeable future. They do not mind long term damage to their reputation and would rather look to short term gains for survival.

 

[gingeanth89]

Spin Palace win through!

It was with great happiness that I received this email from Spin Palace this afternnoon.
===
Hello Anthony,

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Debbie Taylor & I am the Casino Manager of Spin Palace.

Having been made aware of recent events, I thought it important to contact you directly and address the matter on a personal level.

Following your posting on the Casino Meister website, we have been working closely with Bryan Bailey and eCOGRA, the respected online gaming adjudicator, to right any wrongs & also to ensure that the highly respected reputation The Palace Group holds within the online gaming industry of operating a professional & fair business is maintained.

Whilst we are aware that eCOGRA ruled in our favour in this instance, we understand your point of view and accept that the term in question has caused confusion. As a result, I can advise that this term has since been revised and we have sought the approval of both parties mentioned above before making it live across The Palace Group websites.

Having held the position of Casino Manager since Spin Palaces inauguration back in late 2002, I wish to convey how extremely proud I am of the fact that we have always upheld a strong business ethic of honesty & fairness.

With this in mind & having recognised our shortcomings, I am pleased to advise that we will shortly be releasing your full winnings of 2,263.85 as a gesture of our goodwill. Plus, for the inconvenience, a complimentary 100 Free Spins are available now on your account, for play at our very own & exclusive Slot The Palace Group.

I trust the above meets with your approval Anthony & thank you for your patience,

Kind regards,

Debbie
===
Well theres a result! After the s@&t Spin Palace have been taking in this thread hats off to them for being brave enough to admit the errors that were made. An absolutely brilliant result all round. The rule has been fixed and the player got paid.

MASSIVE, absolutey MASSIVE respect to 32Red who after about ten posts into the thread messaged me privately and offered to pay the difference in full if Spin Palace did not pay out as a gesture of goodwill and to restore my (and your) faith in the online casino industry. Ill tell you what, it did!

A famous victory for Casinomesiter.com and all its members. Big ups to Bryan too for his work on this case. Im sure this could never have happened without his input. Also thanks to the other people who messaged me with words of support and offers of help.

Lastly thanks to Debbie at Spin Palce for taking this case in hand and coming through.

Now, where is the donate money to charity button? PM me if you know!

 

[spearmaster]

What a good time to return from vacation Congrats on getting what you deserved, Anthony.

 

[missmichelle]

Fantastic news! I have been following this closely and I am so glad they decided to do the right thing.

Michelle

 

[chuchu59]

 

[rpalmer83]

Very happy this is finally sorted for you. You deserved to be paid, there is no question of that in my book. I was only too pleased to be one of the people offering my support on the matter, there are some very good people on here who take good honest balanced views. It could have been sorted out a lot sooner though, and I hope Palace Group have read this thread thoroughly and taken peoples views on board.

Congratulations on the Win by the way and the best of luck for the future gingeanth89.

 

[WonderingSpirit]

Im happy for you. Good to see Spin Palace come to their senses.

Good for you
Good for Spin Palace, turning negative publicity to positive publicity.

MASSIVE, absolutey MASSIVE respect to 32Red who after about ten posts into the thread messaged me privately and offered to pay the difference in full if Spin Palace did not pay out as a gesture of goodwill and to restore my (and your) faith in the online casino industry. Ill tell you what, it did!

WOW!
Now thats good advertising. Amazing

 

[WonderingSpirit]

This thread should have RESOLVED: in front of title pretty quick?

 

[maxd]

This thread should have RESOLVED: in front of title pretty quick?

Good point ... done.

 

[ultra100]

Congratulations on your efforts and winnings.
This was certainly the best possible solution. Way to go

Of course, Congrats to Bryan and all the team behind CasinoMeister.com. Without them, this issue would not have happy ending.

Finally, congrats to casino management for the decision in the right direction.

 

[hitobito2005]

Glad they have paid up.

I hope we don't see them applying crazy terms in the future.

 

[lots0]

Congrats all around.

Congrats to the Player on his win.

Congrats to Bryan... Who is the big hero here.. all the way around.

Congrats to Pina... Without her the issue might have been buried.

and last but not least...

Congrats to Spin Palace Management...

 

[gingeanth89]

Fantastic Spin Palace

Money now in my neteller account. And once again a happy customer. Im going to donate the value of the bonus (150) through the buttons on this site, if I can find them. Well worth it. Cheers Bryan

 

[Pinababy69]

Money now in my neteller account. And once again a happy customer. Im going to donate the value of the bonus (150) through the buttons on this site, if I can find them. Well worth it. Cheers Bryan

Cheers to you G (can I call ya G )!!! Here's the linky for you, many worthwhile charities on the list:

https://www.casinomeister.com/donate/

 

[Pinababy69]

I am so ecstatic right now, you'd think I'd just collected 2K plus Pounds.

In the long run it will benefit everybody. This thread has raised an important topic: Casinos with subjective or "unfair" terms and conditions and their place in the "Accredited Casinos" section. This is something I'm reviewing at the moment and will be taking appropriate actions so that the Accredited Casino section remains valid and ensures fairness.

I am honestly surprised that you are even willing to tackle this Bryan. I'm happy beyond belief, don't get me wrong. It's just that this is a huge task to undertake, and my hats off to you to be willing to pour the time, effort and resources into it. And thank you for listening.

MASSIVE, absolutey MASSIVE respect to 32Red who after about ten posts into the thread messaged me privately and offered to pay the difference in full if Spin Palace did not pay out as a gesture of goodwill and to restore my (and your) faith in the online casino industry. Ill tell you what, it did!

I hope that this doesn't get overlooked in this thread. If anyone here ever wonders why 32Red wins best casino of the year..year in and year out...read that paragraph up there a few times.

What a good time to return from vacation Congrats on getting what you deserved, Anthony.

And my hats off to you sir. Welcome back, and thanks for reminding us all of why you carry that tagline of Devil's Advocate. You wear it extremely well!!

I'm taking a vacation tonight, lol. Funds on my card, and a small bottle in my fridge. I am so happy, you guys probably think I'm nuts. But when I see this many factions and different people involved in this industry, all pull together to support the same cause/issue.....and then watch that issue get resolved in a favourable manner, my heart soars. Don't ever think you can't change things, because you can. It just takes a little effort, and for everyone to do their part.

Bryan, what can I say? You know my thoughts, and you have my utmost respect.

Ted, amazing job, on all fronts. I'm finally starting to realize that I've met someone who is truly more stubborn than I am, when they are sure they are right. Didn't think that was possible.

Pat and Ed from 32Red, I didn't think it was possible for me to have a higher opinion of you guys than I already did. But you've once again raised the bar. Sincere appreciation of all your efforts. You guys are the best.

Andrew at eCOGRA deserves a thanks as well (please don't anyone shoot me). I heard back from him this morning, and from his reply (and Bryan and Max's comments here), I was hopeful of a good outcome. Thanks Andrew.

Spin Palace, thanks for restoring my faith in your operation, which I always considered one of the very best.

And to everyone who posted in this thread, contributed an opinion, made a suggestion, and stayed on point.....well done!!

This has been a huge issue, but I think in the end it's been a good thing. We're going to see some changes here at this site (in re: T&C's at accredited casinos), that will be of benefit to everyone in the long run.

I will shut up now....and if you see any posts by me tonight....just skip on by, I'm probably drinking and have no business posting.

 

[Jasminebed]

Firstly, a big thumbs up to Spin Palace. I thanked you once for amending your terms, and hoped that having seen the injustice of the previous terms you would pay this player.

I am a customer of Spin Palace, and my slot play violated your terms; had I been remarkably lucky, because I had gambled my last few cents on a slot. I lost (not a new phenonomyn) and it is more than conceivable you would have paid had I rallied from the last few cents bet and managed to complete the near impossible task of meeting WR when significantly down from your starting balance and betting the remainder.

The amendment of your terms in response to CM's behest stopped me from closing my account, because I felt that my play would not fall outside your terms.

But your final response by settling this matter fairly, even if if violation of the (prior) terms and conditions (which I am sure lots of players previously violated, or there would have been many more complaints), restores my faith that when I come to your casino prepared to lose, I will be treated fairly on the off-chance I win.

32Red, I know it is against protocol to share ANYTHING by private message (thanks BTW), but I am glad that the OP shared this with us...just wish you had made that a public offer so he did not violate forum policy.

Events by reputable casinos that damage the industry as a whole damage the bottom line for all casinos.

Gingeanthe, thank you for bring this to the attention of Casinomeister, Spinpalace and the player community. I am right chuffed you have your winnings! I wish you every luck on the goodwill gesture of the freechip.

Gamblers lose in the long term...casinos that do not see this are short-sighted.

SpinPalace, you remain on my desktop. Hate to delete casinos that have paid me, albeit not as much as my losses.

 

[The Dude]

I am honestly surprised that you are even willing to tackle this Bryan. I'm happy beyond belief, don't get me wrong. It's just that this is a huge task to undertake, and my hats off to you to be willing to pour the time, effort and resources into it. And thank you for listening. ...

Well, I'm going to be tackling this when I get back from my vacation

I'm glad the OP has decided to donate some of his funds to a charitable organization. Everyone wins this way.

As I mentioned before, I will be reviewing the terms and conditions of the Accredited Casinos listed at Casinomeister, and I'll be suggesting what needs to be changed for those that are vague or too subjective. This won't be happening overnight since it will require a bit of work. But in the end, it will only strengthen the Accredited List and it'll give us that level playing ground that we all seem to be seeking

Kudos for the casino management on coming through with this. Thank you Spin Palace.

 

[gingeanth89]

Donations

Cheers to you G (can I call ya G )!!! Here's the linky for you, many worthwhile charities on the list:

https://www.casinomeister.com/donate/

Cant find one with a neteller payment option, does anyone know one that does?

 

[The Dude]

Cant find one with a neteller payment option, does anyone know one that does?

You won't find one unless you use your Neteller Mastercard to do it.

 

[hitobito2005]

Gingeanth, you can activate a virtual neteller mastercard on the website. It's free (I think), only takes a minute and gives you a new card number for each transaction you want to make. You can use that to donate straight from your account.

 

[RobWin]

Thought this needed a little better exposure, 32Red What else can be said about this STELLAR Operation !! :notworthy A true CLASS Act!!

Originally Posted by gingeanth89

MASSIVE, absolutey MASSIVE respect to 32Red who after about ten posts into the thread messaged me privately and offered to pay the difference in full if Spin Palace did not pay out as a gesture of goodwill and to restore my (and your) faith in the online casino industry. Ill tell you what, it did!

 

[KasinoKing]

I am:
Delighted the casino did the right thing & paid the player! :notworthy

Very disappointed it took them so darn long to admit they were wrong...

In awe of 32Red for their unbelievably generous offer!

Very happy that I haven't got to spend ages taking all the Palace Group banners off my websites!

KK

 

[deltoid]

Big thumbs up to the Meister, Spin Palace, Max, and all those involved.

It wasn't very pleasant for any involved, but I'm very happy that things have been resolved. It takes a very big person to admit a mistake, and this deserves a very big to Spin Palace.

32Red - you guys are above and beyond. Second to none, indeed!

 

[jetset]

Well, I'm going to be tackling this when I get back from my vacation

I'm glad the OP has decided to donate some of his funds to a charitable organization. Everyone wins this way.

As I mentioned before, I will be reviewing the terms and conditions of the Accredited Casinos listed at Casinomeister, and I'll be suggesting what needs to be changed for those that are vague or too subjective. This won't be happening overnight since it will require a bit of work. But in the end, it will only strengthen the Accredited List and it'll give us that level playing ground that we all seem to be seeking

Kudos for the casino management on coming through with this. Thank you Spin Palace.

It may be possible to lighten the workload on trawling through reams of T&Cs if the members here drew Bryan's specific attention to T&Cs (with a link to the offending clause) that are objectionable.

OPs are (or should be) continually exposed to T&Cs and could therefore flag bad clauses as and when they see them - multiple eyeballs on the task are better than just the few available to Bryan.

And kudos to 32Red on that hitherto unknown extraordinary offer to help the OP here - that's quite a coup.

 

[The Dude]

It may be possible to lighten the workload on trawling through reams of T&Cs if the members here drew Bryan's specific attention to T&Cs (with a link to the offending clause) that are objectionable...

Actually, I'll be having someone do this while I'm gone...

 

[cynthial]

Poor Vortran. He is going to need some new glasses.

 

[chuchu59]

Thought this needed a little better exposure, 32Red What else can be said about this STELLAR Operation !! :notworthy A true CLASS Act!!



MASSIVE, absolutey MASSIVE respect to 32Red who after about ten posts into the thread messaged me privately and offered to pay the difference in full if Spin Palace did not pay out as a gesture of goodwill and to restore my (and your) faith in the online casino industry. Ill tell you what, it did!

The offer from 32RED is truly amazing but wrong imo. This should fall fully on Spin Palace's lap and failing that MG who licensed Spin Palace. Ecogra should also take a hard look at whether they should take a broader definition of the terms than just looking at the surface.

Having said that, I tend to believe this was a tactical ploy to coax Spin Palace into doing the right thing. Probably they got wind of this. We need casinos like 32RED to preserve the integrity of online operators so though I dont agree with their generous offer a big thumbs up for achieving the desired result.

 

[sickdoctor]

The offer from 32RED is truly amazing but wrong imo. This should fall fully on Spin Palace's lap and failing that MG who licensed Spin Palace. Ecogra should also take a hard look at whether they should take a broader definition of the terms than just looking at the surface.

Having said that, I tend to believe this was a tactical ploy to coax Spin Palace into doing the right thing. Probably they got wind of this. We need casinos like 32RED to preserve the integrity of online operators so though I dont agree with their generous offer a big thumbs up for achieving the desired result.

WOW THATS F**** AWSOME

WAY TO GO 32

 

[vinylweatherman]

Don't forget that B's first move once this issue came to light was to remove the casino from the accredited list pending a revision of the Term.

So does CM accreditation GUARANTEE that everything at the the casino is perfect? No.

Does CM accreditation mean that B has screened the place and decided they look trustworthy? Yes.

Does B stand behind the accreditation and re-evaluate it based on new info that comes to light? Yes.

Is that what accreditation is supposed to be about? Yes.

Seems to me the process is working nicely and as expected.

As to the OP's claim that nobody here thinks they have been treated fairly I would suggest they go back and re-read the posts in this thread. I believe what several people have said is (a) you agreed to the Terms and should therefore be subject to them, (b) the Term was crappy and should be changed, by this casino or any other that uses such a clause.

Finally as to this "players should not be expected to understand the Terms" idea I would respectfully point out that the vast majority of casino Terms are not written in legalese but are in fact written to be read and understood by mere mortals, and players.

Why do I say this? Because we often make PAB decisions based on a "reasonable" interpretation of the Terms as written yet we are not trained in legalese. If we can figure them out the players surely can. And should.

Like I said before, you get what you settle for. If that means you settle for Terms you don't understand then you can expect surprises down the road. Is that good? No, certainly not. Is it the casinos fault that you say "yes" when what you really mean is "whatever, just let me play". No, certainly not.

Let's be realistic here. No one is advocating that players should, as a matter of course, be crucified by unreasonable Terms. Many times in the past we've gone back to casinos and said "your Terms suck and you should change them". Some do, some don't. Some get Warnings posted because of the crappy Terms they adopt.

That said the time for players to raise objections is BEFORE they are being nailed up on the boards, not during or after. Is that always possible? No, but that doesn't mean it isn't something to strive for. And the first step of that process is, "hello!", reading the damn things!

I didn't notice the temporary removal from the CM list pending a revision.
The OP seems to have made a "reasonable interpretation" that this rule was to be applied to the original starting balance.

I was thinking that some players might see a casino is accredited, and therefore not pay as much attention as they should to the terms and conditions.

Legalese vs plain English is a problem I see often. It is not helped by the terms just being SO LENGHTY, and padded out with what for the majority of players are irrelevancies, such as "you agree not to decompile, reverse engineer, etc....." This is "Geek Speak", as is the way they define what is meant by "Multiple accounts". Most "users" of computers do not really understand what this is all about, and if this kind of thing is at the top of a long list of terms, they may just stop reading there.

I have to agree that BONUS terms tend to be more in plain English, but as this case has shown, if not all that well, is that even reading and understanding the rules is no protection against the "at our discretion" clauses.

This player cetainly did not break the LITERAL and "reasonable interpretation" of this rule about the size of the LAST bet, but he sure pushed the boundaries with the overall 3 card poker strategy.

It does seem that this, and other recent cases, has opened discussions about a review of what terms can be considered "fair".

What CM is doing now is only what we Brits have had as a consumer right for YEARS. Under CONSUMER contract law, even if we agree to an unfair term, it can be struck out later as "unfair" by the courts, or the regulators. This is a right lacking in the online casino industry, and it is only by negotiation, PABs, and player pressure, that these unfair terms are removed for FUTURE players.

Shafting the UK consumer has cost some businesses MILLIONS of pounds once the courts have started ruling terms as being "unfair", since such a ruling means that the term is struck out of the contract, and the contract is then deemed to consist of the remaining terms.

 

[Slotster!]

I have recently been 'courted' once again by the Palace Group after drifting away over the last couple of years; I was waiting for this thread to conclude before making any deposits/giving them another try.

Talk about how to put someone in a difficult situation... Jeez... I'm not the brightest at the best of times.

a) It seems The Palace Group are as much on the level as they've always been, and coming through to do the right thing. They were always great with me

b) It seems where I'm playing MG at the minute (somethingsomething RED) are still setting the standard and then going over and above it.

Damn you all; why is life so complicated!?!?

I'm going to fire up Intercasino and Blue Square to be on the safe side

 

[greedygirl]

I don't ever recall a thread that represented a forum such as Casinomeister better than this.

The OP calmly states his case, members voice their opinions objectively (without the usual slag-fest, name-calling and derails) and CM and Max do their part. All with not only the player being paid, but an unfair term being overturned and changed. Of course there was a bit of drama throughout, but it was all sorted out with the best possible ending.

I'd like to give extreme kudos to Gigeanth, who throughout this whole ordeal remained adult, composed and sincere. I think we've all been cheering Gigeanth on--not just because the situation seemed so unfair, but also because he just seems to be such a decent guy. Proven further by his desire to donate to a CM charity (too few PABsters ever donate, dammit!).

Congrats to everyone from Gigeanth to CM and Max to the casinos involved and of course the forum community.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am pleased that this had a happy ending, and opened a wider review and discussion on fairness.

32Red may have made a rod for their own back here, other players are now likely to expect the same treatment, and 32Red simply cannot afford to do this. I think 32Red didn't expect this offer to be made public, but now that it has, it will have done a great deal of good for their reputation, which might help fund other offers of this nature they feel like making. I am sure I read elsewhere on this forum about 32Red making good on a "shafting" of a player by a competitor, but not to the tune of 2K+

What is REALLY surprising though, is that Spin Palace have NOT removed this "advantage player" from their promotions list after making this grudging payment under pressure & review, but has even started offering him more. I would have expected a casino so convinced they had a "bonus abuser" on their books to ensure this player never had another opportunity to repeat this excercise, either with a reload bonus, or new player bonus at a sister site. Don't forget, what this player did is now ALLOWED under the revised terms (barring the "FU clause").

 

[gingeanth89]

Eh?

which Don't forget, what this player did is now ALLOWED under the revised terms (barring the "FU clause").

Eh? I thought under the new rules I was allowed to do what I did and thats why I got paid. Here we go, back to square one. How on Earth is anyone expected to understand these rules when a bunch of inveterate gamblers who know the ropes cant agree?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Eh? I thought under the new rules I was allowed to do what I did and thats why I got paid. Here we go, back to square one. How on Earth is anyone expected to understand these rules when a bunch of inveterate gamblers who know the ropes cant agree?

We ARE in agreement. The inconsistency is in the way Palace Group first treat you like a "bonus abuser", pay out after heated discussions, and now seem happy for you to "abuse" even MORE bonuses under the revised rules.

More usually, these cases end in a grudging payment to a player the casino does not want, but said player then finds themselves excluded from all future promotions until they "prove themselves", perhaps by depositing and playing without bonuses.

I doubt the 32Red offer had anything to do with it, since this became public after Palace Group decided to make payment. 32Red seem to have a great deal of faith in your integrity too, since they made such a generous offer to you.
You don't say (or I missed) whether you already have a 32Red account, or whether they made this offer blindly, not knowing what kind of player you were.

 

[Cassa]

Good news! Congrats to all!