Resolved Palace Group Rules Shenanigans

[deucebag]

And from the 32Red Sign Up Bonus page:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Do people see the difference? Palace Group and FL, open to interpretation. 32Red, no interpretation involved.

I disagree. What if you at some point bet 10% of your bonus at blackjack. You get a pair of threes and decide to split. You draw an 5 and a 7 for a 8 and 10. You decide to double down on the 10. Suddenly your bet is more than 25% of your balance. Does this mean you have violated the terms? Or is it only the original bet size that counts?

There is certainly interpretation involved here.

Terms & conditions putting limits on what you can bet is not OK IMO. If the casino does not want the player to bet more than a certain amount, that should be solved by lowering the table limits. Otherwise it is too easy to fall into the trap for innocent players.

 

[kempe]

From 7Sultans (FortuneLounge):
Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance.

How the bonus system works (first losing your own deposit and afterwards the bonus) it is not possible to make a gamble at the casino when you are down. If he had won the first hand nothing would have been wrong. (Hopefully)

For example a 150 deposit and 150 bonus.
Somebody who keeps losing and let's say only has 10 euro left and goes playing roulette and want to keep up doubling until he reaches 640 giving him a decent win. To reach this target (no matter what game) it will be like 0.05% chance for the player to reach this target. the other 99.95% of the times casino will take the full 150 euro deposit of the customer.

They shouldn't complain if the lucky person that has a good gamble with his last dimes makes a decent win, because all other times they will takes his money in full!

The rules for an accredited / ecogra casino would be that max betsize depends on the INITIAL (bonus) balance..

PS Deucebag also makes a good point. When playing Casino Holdem if you raise the hand you are tripling your initial bet, if Casino want to work like this, they should explicitly state for each and every game HOW you need to bet!

 

[spearmaster]

I disagree. What if you at some point bet 10% of your bonus at blackjack. You get a pair of threes and decide to split. You draw an 5 and a 7 for a 8 and 10. You decide to double down on the 10. Suddenly your bet is more than 25% of your balance. Does this mean you have violated the terms? Or is it only the original bet size that counts?

Don't want to take this off track - but the T&Cs clearly state "individual bets" - in your example there are 3 individual bets.

 

[gingeanth89]

Palace Group Rules Shananigans!

I used the term shenanigans after the south park episode at the carnival. What was the result of calling shenanigans there It's my birthday today, fingers crossed I get a lovely 2400 birthday pressie from The Palace Group after they realize that this is all some crazy mix up and that they should have paid me in the first place.

 

[The Dude]

I used the term shenanigans after the south park episode at the carnival. What was the result of calling shenanigans there It's my birthday today, fingers crossed I get a lovely 2400 birthday pressie from The Palace Group after they realize that this is all some crazy mix up and that they should have paid me in the first place.

Happy Birthday

Darran from the Palace group said he was going to try and make a statement today - he's out of town, so it may be difficult for him. He should have something soon.

 

[Jufo]

* 4th bet, wagered remaining 30 and won 2700 with a straight flush 100% of balance and bonus

Doesn't STR Flush pay maximum 40x bet (=1200) if you bet on pair plus only. So you must have run your balance up with more bets. How large were these bets?

 

[gingeanth89]

Palace Group Rules Shananigans!

Doesn't STR Flush pay maximum 40x bet (=1200) if you bet on pair plus only. So you must have run your balance up with more bets. How large were these bets?

Four hands only - see first post with copy and paste of the Spin Palace/eCogra info.

 

[thelawnet]

How can you win 2700 from 30 on 3cp?

I'm actually quite confused by the OP's thread.

He states:

[start balance is 300, of which 150 is bonus]

1st Hand, bet 120, call - lose.
2nd Hand, bet 60, fold
3rd Hand, bet 90, fold
4th Hand bet my remaining 30 quid and hit a straight flush! Happy Day! 2700.


Why is he calling? I assume he is playing pair plus. You cannot call, it's fully automated. And how does he win 2700 off 30? The payout should be 1230, since the odds are 40:1

Anyway, it's clearly unreasonable to insist that players follow what amounts to a negative progression. By these terms a player depositing 1000, getting a 100bonus, and betting 2.50 a hand on a progressive slot could have their progressive win confiscated if they won on the last spin.

I note that Red Flush casino has a 62 betting limit, I assume only for new players. This is 1/4 of the 250 bonus+deposit starting balance, seems fair to me. There's no way to break the rules (which was supposed to be the point of the EZ gaming system), so no ridiculous situations like this.

 

[Jufo]

Four hands only - see first post with copy and paste of the Spin Palace/eCogra info.

Um it's not possible to win 2700 from 30 bet on 3 Card poker.

Why is he calling? I assume he is playing pair plus. You cannot call, it's fully automated. And how does he win 2700 off 30? The payout should be 1230, since the odds are 40:1

My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.

 

[spearmaster]

My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.

Are you talking about in this software? If so, something's wrong, because the pair plus bet is an independent bet and is supposed to be paid on all occasions.

I too had this question about the amount but the main issue in my mind was the terms & conditions.

 

[dancinggoon]

Nevermind to see such a outright theft from a Casinomeister accredited and ecora proofed casino.

Seems like we all need a team of top lawyers before having a little fun at a casino.... :notworthy

Im wondering what kind of short minded idiots are sitting in their marketing/ promotion department, insteated of paying him and putting the story of somebody who win 2700 with his last small bet on their page/emails, they confisciate his winnings with extrem shady small print in their T&C.

Maybe they are extrem short of money, that they using this term now to confisciate winnings, i suggest anyone to stop playing there, who knows if you might ever get paid...

 

[gingeanth89]

Palace Groups Nonsense

The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again.

 

[Jufo]

Are you talking about in this software? If so, something's wrong, because the pair plus bet is an independent bet and is supposed to be paid on all occasions.

Yes, Microgaming 3 Card Poker help says:

"The Pair Plus game has payouts for specific hand combinations. The payouts are not dependent on the Dealers cards.

If you have placed an ante and a Pair Plus bet and you choose to fold, your Pair Plus bet and payout is lost, regardless of the rank of your hand."

Of course it is in your favor to call the ante bet whenever you have a pair or higher but if you bet your whole balance on ante & pair plus you have to redeposit to finish the hand and cannot use the pair plus winnings to pay the call bet, which is the correct way to implement this.

 

[spearmaster]

Yes, Microgaming 3 Card Poker help says:

"The Pair Plus game has payouts for specific hand combinations. The payouts are not dependent on the Dealers cards.

If you have placed an ante and a Pair Plus bet and you choose to fold, your Pair Plus bet and payout is lost, regardless of the rank of your hand."

Of course it is in your favor to call the ante bet whenever you have a pair or higher but if you bet your whole balance on ante & pair plus you have to redeposit to finish the hand and cannot use the pair plus winnings to pay the call bet, which is the correct way to implement this.

FFS... that is plain wrong. There is no "play" position in front of Pair Plus... and it is an independent bet.

Damn good reason to stay away from 3 Card Poker if you like playing Pair Plus and Ante/Play simultaneously... nice find Jufo!

 

[spearmaster]

The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again.

If you have the email that says you were hedge betting, would you mind sending me a PM?

 

[Pinababy69]

Spear, what post are you quoting? I can't find it....did the OP edit something out?

I can't believe that eCOGRA would tell him/her that playing slots is hedge betting. Surely the OP is mistaken/confused? I reread the original post, and to me it looks like they commented only on the OP's first four bets...is that right?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it...caffeine deficiency. But that can't be right. I have a hard time believing that the slot play even came into question, why would it?

 

[The Dude]

...Who at Casinomeister.com makes the decisions before putting casinos on the accredited list?

I make the decisions. This casino group has been listed here since 2001 - and for the past eight years they have a pretty good track record of treating players fairly.

There are clearly two problems here: the first is your betting style, the second is the wording of this term.

Before I get the collective groan, hear me out and take everything into account of what I'm saying:.

gingeanth89 played in a manner that caused the casino management to take notice and scrutinize his playing patterns. When you grab the attention of a casino manager (this goes for B&Ms as well), you're going to have to hope that you have not violated any of their terms or you'll get the boot.

The casino manager nailed him and applied the "irregular betting" clause. The player played a high risk game (3 card poker), initially placing 4 large bets. He then grinded out the wagering requirements with 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin - a low risk game. This is the reason the casino confiscated his winnings.

The Palace Group might be able to let us know whether this player signed up in concert with others, because this may have been a consideration as well. They'll nail you for "acting in concert" which is a separate term. You see, if you want to beat bonuses, and you have a good plan on how to do this, don't sign up at the same time as your buddies, play the same games, and then try to skirt by the casino managers. They are trained to look out for these type of activities.

Enough ragging on the player - you can put your torches and pitchforks down

The second problem is this term. I don't agree with it. Like Spear pointed out, the way it is worded it could be applied to just about anyone. So we have to rely on the objectivity of the casino. This is where trust is involved. With this term we are trusting the casino not to abuse it. So far, this is the first time I am aware of it being applied to anyone.

In my opinion, these terms are seemingly unfair because they give the casino too much room for interpretation. How is "irregular" defined? Well, giving credit to the casino, they do give examples.

It's problematic because this is how most players want to play bonuses - take a chance, and then grind out the wagering requirements. We can't overlook the fact that the player is not guaranteed a win with the first set of bets. He risked his deposit fair and square.

The dilemma is "where is the line drawn?" to be fair to both parties. The casino wants to protect its business; the player wants to win.

The casino needs to revise this term - it should be majority of deposit not balance. I think most everyone would agree that this is fair, right?

...Look I generally agree with the Meister all things considered, but I think he and I have a difference of opinion on this. To me this term is a Blue Hat Term just as the 9k a month term is, if not more!

No I disagree, this is a method that many bonus hunters use to beat the house; the casino has posted the ways that disqualify the winnings.

We cannot lose sight that this is bonus play. If you have a "bonus free" deposit I'm sure you can play it however you want.

As I understood it, the casino will not enter into any discussion, eCogra say the rules are the rules end of and so did you when I tried PAB...

eCOGRA is reviewing this term, I'm sure of it. And yes, you breached this term - that's what you were told. In fact, I don't think anywhere did you deny breaching their terms and conditions.

What we are discussing now is the fairness of this term. The casino will probably enter into a discussion since they are members of this forum. Just as long as the participants of this thread keep it mellow, we can discuss...

Lastly, this player is not banned from the casino - he just had his winnings confiscated.

 

[The Dude]

Nevermind to see such a outright theft from a Casinomeister accredited and ecora proofed casino.

Seems like we all need a team of top lawyers before having a little fun at a casino.... :notworthy

Im wondering what kind of short minded idiots are sitting in their marketing/ promotion department, insteated of paying him and putting the story of somebody who win 2700 with his last small bet on their page/emails, they confisciate his winnings with extrem shady small print in their T&C.

Maybe they are extrem short of money, that they using this term now to confisciate winnings, i suggest anyone to stop playing there, who knows if you might ever get paid...

I guess you skipped my administrative warning. One more post like this and I'll disable your posting permissions to this thread.

This goes for everyone else as well.

 

[The Dude]

The one main thing for me is the shadey nature of the rule and how it was applied here. The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting. Thats two main things. The third thing is that Spin Palace returned my deposit without even bothering to email me and inform me of their decision, I had to email them a bunch of times to find this out myself. Thats three Main things. Ill come in again.

That's a misleading comment. She did not state anywhere that it was hedge betting.

 

[gingeanth89]

Spin Palace/Palace Group Malarky

Equal, Zero Margin or Hedge Betting is considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes, according to the published T&C's at the time of accepting their bonus offer. The fact that you proceeded to place 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin in order to meet the play-through requirements in a manner that deliberately minimises the risk, in our opinion breaches the T&Cs.

That seems very clear to me. eCogra say Equal, zero margin or hedge betting is considered irregular gaming, followed by the fact that I played a slot to meet the play through requirement deliberately minimizing risk. i.e. playing slots is zero margin/hedging. I cant see how to read it any other way. Educate me!

Ant

 

[zap987]

It's very obvious you knew what you were doing and were playing expecting to have a positive EV from the bonus.

That doesn't change the fact that the casino should pay in my opinion, if they want to stop it they should put betting limits in when a bonus is active.

 

[dancinggoon]

It looks like no matter what you do is wrong, if you place big bets on table games, you get bootet and if you place small ones on slots, you get bootet too...

The player here did nothing else, as other players do everyday, this is called "RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING"

He played his session, was lucky enough to score a nice win and then he just took care, that he dont loose everything back to the casino!

Gratulation on your discipline!

I renember to read alot here about responsible gambling, and most other players here, do it the same way, cashing out once they hit a big win.

Sad that a player who played like this guidelines gets burned!

 

[thelawnet]

Um it's not possible to win 2700 from 30 bet on 3 Card poker.



My guess is he bet on both ante & pair plus. Stupidly enough also the pair plus bet is lost if you don't call the ante even if you have pair of higher.

In that case the numbers are wrong. He must have bet substantially more than 30 on the pair plus. The ante bonus is only 5-1, so that doesn't amount to all that much - not enough 2700.

If it were 60 on the pair plus, that would be 2400 win, then 40 each on ante+play, that would add up to about 2700.

But 30?

No.

 

[The Dude]

Educate me!

My pleasure

You said:

The other thing is the suggestion by the eCogra rep that betting on slot machines is hedge betting.

The actual term that applies to you is the following:

your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus

e.g. means exempli gratia = for example. So they give you examples of what they will review - it's not exhaustive in other words. This is what I believe Tex was referring to. She did not state you were hedge betting.

But this is besides the point. Correct me if I'm wrong, you broke the term on your fourth bet, right? And then went on to grind out the wagering requirements with Megaspin. What were you thinking? You knew they would nail you for this, didn't you?

Or did you miss this term when signing up? There are number of members here who are bonus players who would surely school you on how to not raise red flags. That's what you did, and the casino nailed you. You gave the casino room to use their discretion and they did.

 

[thelawnet]

I make the decisions. This casino group has been listed here since 2001 - and for the past eight years they have a pretty good track record of treating players fairly.

There are clearly two problems here: the first is your betting style, the second is the wording of this term.

Before I get the collective groan, hear me out and take everything into account of what I'm saying:.

gingeanth89 played in a manner that caused the casino management to take notice and scrutinize his playing patterns. When you grab the attention of a casino manager (this goes for B&Ms as well), you're going to have to hope that you have not violated any of their terms or you'll get the boot.

The casino manager nailed him and applied the "irregular betting" clause. The player played a high risk game (3 card poker), initially placing 4 large bets. He then grinded out the wagering requirements with 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin - a low risk game. This is the reason the casino confiscated his winnings.

Clearly the latter behaviour is annoying for the casino because they know they have an unprofitable player. But is it wrong under their terms? No, they nabbed him on his earlier bets. And the term under which they nabbed him is unfair because anyone will foul on their last bet.

The Palace Group might be able to let us know whether this player signed up in concert with others, because this may have been a consideration as well. They'll nail you for "acting in concert" which is a separate term. You see, if you want to beat bonuses, and you have a good plan on how to do this, don't sign up at the same time as your buddies, play the same games, and then try to skirt by the casino managers. They are trained to look out for these type of activities.

Unnecessary insinuation IMO.

Lastly, this player is not banned from the casino - he just had his winnings confiscated.

Ha ha ha. I bet that's a great comfort.

 

[Pinababy69]

He then grinded out the wagering requirements with 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin - a low risk game. This is the reason the casino confiscated his winnings.

Equal, Zero Margin or Hedge Betting is considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes, according to the published T&C's at the time of accepting their bonus offer. The fact that you proceeded to place 2222 bets of 1.6 on Megaspin in order to meet the play-through requirements in a manner that deliberately minimises the risk, in our opinion breaches the T&Cs.

I can't be reading this right. Placing 2K plus bets at $1.60 a pop on a SLOT is low risk betting? Since when is playing any slot low risk? Slots are volatile, and it's quite easy to lose a bankroll of 2K plus playing $1 or higher bets per spin. I'm sorry...but that's insanity to me. So if a player can't play slots now to grind out playthrough...what exactly are they supposed to play?

I'll leave the other part to you guys to discuss....I'm still picking my jaw up off the desk.

 

[hitobito2005]

The term is much too vague. There should be no room for vague terms in casino T&Cs.

The method that was used to win money using this bonus was in fact very high risk, and slots are by no means a low margin game even at very low stakes. Three card poker is quite a high margin, high variance game too. There was probably more than a 90% chance of him losing his deposit betting such high stakes.

FTR Anthony had PABd and we looked at the terms and conditions, and whether we like it or not, they were broken with the last bet with the 4th Hand.

What if he'd claimed the bonus and had been playing lowish stakes on slots or something like a "normal" player, was down to his last 5, put it all on a single spin and won 1000? Would the "placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance and bonus" rule mean his winnings are again, confiscated?

Probably not, but they should be if the term is applied equally over all circumstances. It seems that if you almost crash out and then make a lucky comeback, you'll get your winnings confiscated.

 

[zap987]

It's MegaSpin, it's just many spins in one. The actual betting is 0.2/spin on a low variance slot. It's a well known method of clearing wagering requirements after you get a big hit on your first wagers.

 

[Pinababy69]

It's MegaSpin, it's just many spins in one. The actual betting is 0.2/spin on a low variance slot. It's a well known method of clearing wagering requirements after you get a big hit on your first wagers.

I know what Megaspin is, and betting 20 cents per "board" or $1.60 a spin is hardly low risk, IMO. I've played it, and it wasn't for a buck and change a spin. I still don't see how any slot can be considered "low risk". I've had my ass kicked to next week and back from almost every MG slot available, at one time or another. The player got lucky, and happened to hit the slot when it was in a good mood.

Obviously, I must be missing something here..and you know what? I'm not even interested in finding out. It's insanity to me....and no one will convince me otherwise. KasinoKing had better watch out if casinos are starting to consider slot play as low risk.

 

[zap987]

When you have deposited 150 and have a 2700 balance, spinning at 0.2/spin is as low risk as it gets. Of course you will most likely lose some and there will be variance but it's still a very good way to clear the wr with a guaranteed profit.

As I said I think the casino should pay if they take the bet which they did. I just want to put it in perspective, the way this player played is the reason the casinos have these kind of rules to start with and it's exactly what the rules are there to stop.

 

[chuchu59]

I can't be reading this right. Placing 2K plus bets at $1.60 a pop on a SLOT is low risk betting? Since when is playing any slot low risk? Slots are volatile, and it's quite easy to lose a bankroll of 2K plus playing $1 or higher bets per spin. I'm sorry...but that's insanity to me. So if a player can't play slots now to grind out playthrough...what exactly are they supposed to play?

I'll leave the other part to you guys to discuss....I'm still picking my jaw up off the desk.

Pina,

Whilst I do not agree playing Megaspins is low risk, it would be a quick way to meet WRs quickly and cash out whatever remains of the $2700. I believe the player wanted to cash out as soon as possible.

However, practically everyone does this if he gets a big win and wants to clear WRs so what the hell is wrong with it? Actually, the casinos sets these terms to prevent players from placing large bets with the casino's money (bonus) on even-money games and then grind out WRs. If the player had won, say $300 on a single game and then proceeded to play low-risk slots at 45c a spin that would have amounted to bonus abuse. But let's face it, the player had $2700 as a bankroll so even if he had proceeded to play other slots at $1.80 per spin he should still be able to cash out in the region of $2300-$2500 hardly the $150 that was refunded.

If the casino believes that this player should not play megaspins to clear the bonus place back the $2700 into the account and let him finish the wagering on other slots/games to clear the $150 bonus. Dont use the vague terms 'irregular betting'. They are not restricted games so no matter how haphazard his bets are they should still count.

 

[gingeanth89]

Bonus betting caps

It's very obvious you knew what you were doing and were playing expecting to have a positive EV from the bonus.

That doesn't change the fact that the casino should pay in my opinion, if they want to stop it they should put betting limits in when a bonus is active.

Thats just it! They do have a betting limit set when the bonus is active!

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

In that case the numbers are wrong. He must have bet substantially more than 30 on the pair plus. The ante bonus is only 5-1, so that doesn't amount to all that much - not enough 2700.

If it were 60 on the pair plus, that would be 2400 win, then 40 each on ante+play, that would add up to about 2700.

But 30?

No.

OP, could you explain how you managed to win 2700 from 30 bet on this game. There are several comments in this thread but i still don't get it.

 

[gingeanth89]

Rules breaking

My pleasure

But this is besides the point. Correct me if I'm wrong, you broke the term on your fourth bet, right? And then went on to grind out the wagering requirements with Megaspin. What were you thinking? You knew they would nail you for this, didn't you?

Or did you miss this term when signing up? There are number of members here who are bonus players who would surely school you on how to not raise red flags. That's what you did, and the casino nailed you. You gave the casino room to use their discretion and they did.

I understood the term about betting the majority to mean I couldnt bet like 300 or nearly that on a hand. The software enforces this by limiting your maximum bet anyway. I didnt think the limit would be re calculated after every hand and that I would be measured against the new total. The rules dont say this happens so a fair assumption I think. Also, when I won, I wanted to cash out straight away but couldnt because the banking system said that I had not played enough. I went and read the rules again and decided that slot machines was the best way to clear their requirements as they counted 100% towards the total. I played a few different games before finding one thast I could autoplay on and used that to finish up.

If the rules were clear (and fair) I wouldnt be kicking off. They are neither clear nor fair so I am.

 

[The Dude]

I understood the term about betting the majority to mean I couldnt bet like 300 or nearly that on a hand. The software enforces this by limiting your maximum bet anyway. I didnt think the limit would be re calculated after every hand and that I would be measured against the new total. The rules dont say this happens so a fair assumption I think. Also, when I won, I wanted to cash out straight away but couldnt because the banking system said that I had not played enough. I went and read the rules again and decided that slot machines was the best way to clear their requirements as they counted 100% towards the total. I played a few different games before finding one thast I could autoplay on and used that to finish up...

Okay, thanks - fair enough. I'm waiting for the casino rep to give us the casino's side of things.

 

[gingeanth89]

Insinuado

Unnecessary insinuation IMO.
.

FYI I played alone without any help from anyone else, no collaboration.

The casino limits the size of the bets you can make using their software, lists what games can and cant be played and has a play through requirement.

I bet what they allowed me to, the goal posts moved whilst I was playing (balance down, percentage of current balance up hence rule was broken), played only allowed games and met their requirement playing slot machines.

As such I dont think I broke their rules according to the spirit in which they were written and I think the casino is just creatively interpreting the rule to hold onto an amount of money which means nothing to them but loads to me.

I hope they look at this thread and realise that the amount in question is worth far far less than the amount of bad will they are generating, pay me, fix their rule so it is fair and not open to interpretation (by the casino or the player) and think twice in the future about clawing back payments which lets be honest they implied they were going to make when they offered me the extra bonus to put the money back in.

Anthony

 

[spearmaster]

I understood the term about betting the majority to mean I couldnt bet like 300 or nearly that on a hand. The software enforces this by limiting your maximum bet anyway. I didnt think the limit would be re calculated after every hand and that I would be measured against the new total. The rules dont say this happens so a fair assumption I think. Also, when I won, I wanted to cash out straight away but couldnt because the banking system said that I had not played enough. I went and read the rules again and decided that slot machines was the best way to clear their requirements as they counted 100% towards the total. I played a few different games before finding one thast I could autoplay on and used that to finish up.

If the rules were clear (and fair) I wouldnt be kicking off. They are neither clear nor fair so I am.

Would you mind recreating your bet history, perhaps through Playcheck? The 2700 is impossible on a single bet so something must be wrong.

 

[chuchu59]

Gingeath89,

I think we heard your story loud and clear. Let Bryan sort this out from now on. I would also like to hear the casino's side of the story.

 

[gingeanth89]

The Palace Group Rulings

Okay, thanks - fair enough. I'm waiting for the casino rep to give us the casino's side of things.

I wont hold my breath for a response. I had to email them several times to even be told "we have returned your deposit this decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into". No explanation was given. The onus was on me to go to them to find out why they had returned my deposit. It was only when eCogra got involved that I even had a whiff of what I was supposed to have done. Not the best service in the world is it when you are expecting 2400 and get sent 150 without even an email telling you what they are doing. There are so many problems with this case it just isnt funny.

 

[gingeanth89]

Bets

Would you mind recreating your bet history, perhaps through Playcheck? The 2700 is impossible on a single bet so something must be wrong.

I dont know how to do that but I have a screen shot of the winningest hand and I had 60 on Pair plus and 30 on Ante.

Ant

 

[KasinoKing]

I dont know how to do that but I have a screen shot of the winningest hand and I had 60 on Pair plus and 30 on Ante.
Ant

So your last bet was 90 - so you were lying in your first post then?:

I made a new account, deposited 150 and got a 100% matching bonus. Balance 300. Ive checked their terms and conditions and I can play 3 Card Poker which is great because thats what I normally play at land based casinos.

1st Hand, bet 120, call - lose.
2nd Hand, bet 60, fold
3rd Hand, bet 90, fold
4th Hand bet my remaining 30 quid and hit a straight flush! Happy Day! 2700.

120+60+90+30 = 300, so where did the other 60 come from?

It's very obvious you knew what you were doing and were playing expecting to have a positive EV from the bonus.

That doesn't change the fact that the casino should pay in my opinion, if they want to stop it they should put betting limits in when a bonus is active.

Totally 110% agree! (With both sentences).
When o when o when are casinos going to write clear unambiguous terms which say exactly what players can not do, or better still, use their software to make it impossible...???
Then we would NEVER have to see another thread like this ever again and everybody would live happily ever after for all eternity!

Sheeeesh!

 

[funky_seagull]

I notice when I take a bonus with some MG casinos that I am restricted by the size of bet I can place on games during time of wagering requirements. This avoids me breaking the term by ensuring I cannot place bets larger than a percentage of my balance. So it must be possible for all MG casinos to implement this in their software or request it from MG.

I think programming the software to disallow certain kinds of bets &/or games during times of bonus wagering requirements which the casino would call bonus abuse is the way to go. A simple message saying sorry this bet is not allowed until wagering requirements have been met will do. It stops confusion later on if some players haven't read the extremely long tiring set of commandments which are terms and conditions. And means nobody can be accused of bonus abuse because the software has declined those bets deemed by the casino to be of inappropiate spirit, and caused them to have never been placed. It will kill bonus abuse in its tracks. I guess it depends on how much it costs to do this. But feel it is the logical way forward and is possible because there are casinos which do this.

Also it disturbed me to read of an accredited casino, sending out an email to entice a player into reversing their withdrawal.

I feel the term quoted is too vague. It is the exact same one that crops up in lots of MG casinos. I hate the term. It is very difficult to understand where the casino is coming from. It needs to be made clearer. With play examples being illustated to show what the casino means by this term if possible. It seems a lot of casinos are a bit lazy and just copy the same terms and conditions from everyone else. Cause they are identical in the way they are phrased.

Each individual casino needs to put more effort into making these binding agreements more reader friendly and easy to understand, and in terms which appear vague, they should show clear examples of what they're talking about.

 

[thelawnet]

When you have deposited 150 and have a 2700 balance, spinning at 0.2/spin is as low risk as it gets. Of course you will most likely lose some and there will be variance but it's still a very good way to clear the wr with a guaranteed profit.

Well not quite.

0.25/spin on regular Double Magic is lower variance than what this player played, which I assume is 9 slots of 0.20 each. (I assume 1.60 is an error, I'm guessing he played 1.80/spin). He could have done 9 lines at 1 * 10p each, which would have been lower risk,but same house edge.

What the megaspin does do is get through the wagering quicker.

But by no means is this the lowest variance choice. You could play 1p, 9p, whatever on Thunderstruck.

As I said I think the casino should pay if they take the bet which they did. I just want to put it in perspective, the way this player played is the reason the casinos have these kind of rules to start with and it's exactly what the rules are there to stop.

Do people play like this without a bonus? I guess not, because if they win they are allowed to withdraw.

The point to me is that players do this because they've taken a chance, they've won, then they want to take their winnings and leave. But they're not allowed to do this, so they adopt a balance-preservation strategy. Who wants to win then see it all evaporate? Which doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

 

[thelawnet]

I dont know how to do that but I have a screen shot of the winningest hand and I had 60 on Pair plus and 30 on Ante.

Ant

Ok that makes more sense:

Balance 120

60 on Pair Plus
30 on Ante
30 on Play

Ante + play bet returns 30 + 30 + 210 = 270

Pair Plus bet returns 60 + 60 * 40 = 2460

= 2730
2610 win, 120 wagered

So you must have had at least 120 in your balance before this bet

Could you please post your accurate bet history?

 

[Palace Group]

In response

Firstly to address a few additional points raised in this thread:
30. Spin Palace Casino reserves the right to pay all Progressive Jackpot winnings in US dollars. The amount to be paid, will be determined by the US Dollar Progressive Jackpot amount on the Progressive Game played, at the time the jackpot was won.
We pay progressives in the currency the player played in. The term does need updating and will be done so accordingly.

The Finnish site will be updated to have the same terms as the rest of our the casino sites. Thank you for pointing these out.

In response to the original post.

We have been targeted and abused by a number of players using certain betting patterns (which for obvious reasons I cannot divulge). We do not take the bets at face value but delve into the actual game play to determine whether someone has transgressed the terms and conditions or not.
The problems come in when we look at trends and play and see definite signs that someone is betting a certain way after receiving bonus money which is not in the spirit of fair play and not the reason we give offers and bonuses to our players.
Our terms do state what we do not allow and if players would like to clarify what they may or may not do prior to claiming and betting they are welcome to contact us.
The 20% bonus offer on the reversal was an error and should not have been sent out. This does not detract that once the withdrawal was submitted and analysed the player did in fact break terms which they agreed to when registering with us.
Players who play with us know we are a reputable group who does not need to revert to any underhand tactics. We do however strongly believe that a business needs to protect itself.

Regards,

The Palace Group

 

[deucebag]

The casino needs to revise this term - it should be majority of deposit not balance. I think most everyone would agree that this is fair, right?

Ideally I think the software should set betting limits, players should not have to watch out for traps. Some MGs even appear to have table limits automatically adjusted depending on bonus. I think a lot of new players are put off by complicated terms and conditions such as this.

If they do have this term that you can only bet a certain percentage of the deposit amount/starting balance, they need to define what counts as a bet. Is it only the initial bet, or are doubles, splits, raises and calls at later stages of the hand included in the max bet amount?

 

[spearmaster]

Firstly to address a few additional points raised in this thread:
30. Spin Palace Casino reserves the right to pay all Progressive Jackpot winnings in US dollars. The amount to be paid, will be determined by the US Dollar Progressive Jackpot amount on the Progressive Game played, at the time the jackpot was won.
We pay progressives in the currency the player played in. The term does need updating and will be done so accordingly.

The Finnish site will be updated to have the same terms as the rest of our the casino sites. Thank you for pointing these out.

In response to the original post.

We have been targeted and abused by a number of players using certain betting patterns (which for obvious reasons I cannot divulge). We do not take the bets at face value but delve into the actual game play to determine whether someone has transgressed the terms and conditions or not.
The problems come in when we look at trends and play and see definite signs that someone is betting a certain way after receiving bonus money which is not in the spirit of fair play and not the reason we give offers and bonuses to our players.
Our terms do state what we do not allow and if players would like to clarify what they may or may not do prior to claiming and betting they are welcome to contact us.
The 20% bonus offer on the reversal was an error and should not have been sent out. This does not detract that once the withdrawal was submitted and analysed the player did in fact break terms which they agreed to when registering with us.
Players who play with us know we are a reputable group who does not need to revert to any underhand tactics. We do however strongly believe that a business needs to protect itself.

Regards,

The Palace Group

Would you mind addressing the fact that the term "majority of account balance and bonus" is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to avoid breaching when a player makes a bet of the remainder of his balance, even if it's only ONE CENT?

 

[spearmaster]

Ideally I think the software should set betting limits, players should not have to watch out for traps. Some MGs even appear to have table limits automatically adjusted depending on bonus. I think a lot of new players are put off by complicated terms and conditions such as this.

If they do have this term that you can only bet a certain percentage of the deposit amount/starting balance, they need to define what counts as a bet. Is it only the initial bet, or are doubles, splits, raises and calls at later stages of the hand included in the max bet amount?

It must necessarily be only the original bet - since all further bets are optional.

 

[Palace Group]

Spearmaster

Of course:

I mentioned that we go into detail to check accounts and if it is the remaining balance used for a small bet that is fine.

Those players who have been playing with us for years know we are fair and upfront with what we do.
There are however cases where intentions are deliberate and terms are broken and these are the ones acted upon.

Hopefully this answers your question Spearmaster.

Regards,

The Palace Group

 

[thelawnet]

It must necessarily be only the original bet - since all further bets are optional.

Hmm, I think that certain games are different. For some games, you HAVE to pay more to get paid. Like casino hold em, three card poker ante + play bet, and some others.

Every brand of casino software will, with $3 in your balance, let you bet $3 on blackjack. But they won't necessarily let you bet $3 on casino hold em. Playtech limits you to 1/3 of your balance, because you NEED the extra cash to get paid.

It's not unreasonable to consider the amount wagered as the sum of ante+play for these purposes on 3 card poker. For blackjack, however, it's definitely only the original bet.