Resolved Need advice on iNetBet - don't want to lose 6k from one spin :(

[maxd]

... Then that leaves only two options ...

As has already been said a few times, we're working on it.

 

[ladyhawke]

My point about task manager and using end task is as long as you can use the task manager then it's not the case that you cannot exit something, as I noted with the game that is causing all this trouble, I checked it out and I noted that when you choose your bet size example clicking $5 then you are taken to the board where you click the dice, the $5 is not actually deducted from the balance at the bottom until you press the roll dice button, so after choosing betsize then making it to the game board the player still had not breached the terms yet, until he hit spin dice, and the fact he did one spin then was able to leave? I thought he said he couldn't leave till he played..he managed to leave after one spin though? me personally having played slots since 2003 if that was me I know for a fact if I had clicked bet £5 and was taken to a board game that looked nothing like a slot, I would have closed it down before pressing any buttons at all, as I always err on the side of caution when using a bonus.

Task Manager is not meant to be used for something so trivial as exiting a slot that cannot be closed by any other means. In fact, if anything, this indicates either a serious design flaw, OR a deliberate design strategy that forces a player to continue with the game, no matter what the consequences to the player.

And as has been mentioned before, and reiterated by both @brianmon and @Savatage79 below, in Real money mode you are locked into the game until you complete the wager.

"I would have closed it down before pressing any buttons at all." From this comment, as well as those above that I have bolded, I am not sure you have played this dreadful game in real mode at all, as despite your protestations, once you have selected your stake, you simply have no choice but to play, unless you resort to extreme methods such as Task Manager or a reboot. And then...when you log back onto the casino, you are taken straight back into the game to complete your wager.

Have you tried that with Real money though?
An unfinished game wouldn't be logged on the servers, in demo mode. There would be no reason to log anything.

It's the same as quitting a game during a feature. Do it with real money and the game will resume where it left off, when you reload it.
Do it in demo mode and the feature will have disappeared

Yea I remember when I played banana Jones after you select the wager it locks you in, and if you try to enter other games it'll just say you have a live game and takes you back In til you spin.

I specifically remember it because I remember wanting to back out of it once for some reason, and it took me right back in until I initiated.. I'm pretty sure, it's been awhile but I'm fairly sure.

Speaking of banana Jones id shove that game right up someone's ass if I could

 

[zreb]

While not the topic of the thread, getting personally frustrated at inetbet's complete lack of responsiveness regarding my ID verification. Been 9 days so far, contacted live chat 3x since then and email once yesterday.

So process so far:
1. Submitted id and address verification by email early on 10/29.
2. Inet bet response(!) 10/30, requests credit card faxback form completed by hand. (There's zero reason they should need this, I only ever deposited with BTC.)
3. Reply with faxback form (emailed photo) within 4 hours. No response of any type.
4. Live chat told me on my first status inquiry (after 2.5 days of waiting) that i needed to wait 48-72 hours. On my second two requests (11/2 and 11/5 I think, though not 100% sure) they told me they couldn't do anything but would leave a note for that department. My email (1 day ago) has not received a response (inetbet lists email as their preferred method of contact). I received no followup after any time I contacted live support.

Normally, I would wait a bit longer before publicly complaining, despite the annoyance. But their own ****ing terms state:

"Your proof of identity must match your registered name and surname. If you fail to complete this process within 1 week (5 working days) after our request, your account will be subject to lock out and any winnings and/or cash-in made void. In cases of fraudulent documentation, your account will be locked and all winnings and/or cash-in will be void."

Their own slowness and complete lack of responsiveness don't even allow players to meet the terms they set themselves. That's not acceptable.

Edit: When I contacted live support the first time I even asked if they could at least just confirm that they actually received my document submission, and they said they were unable to do this for me - that only the respective department could. Not sure that makes any sense since I sent it to the main support email, and most casinos can at least confirm document receipt even if the specific department in charge needs to be the one to verify them.

 

[mfrasher]

As has already been said a few times, we're working on it.

This is good news. Thank you Max and the CM team for continuing to work on this. I do appreciate the effort.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a better outcome, but my hopes aren't particularly high. Would be nice to come here and say, despite the trouble, the casino eventually did the right thing.

I presume, based off what I am reading from others, a decision reversal would go a long way with the community.

I for one, am personally an advocate of 2nd chances.

 

[mfrasher]

While not the topic of the thread, getting personally frustrated at inetbet's complete lack of responsiveness regarding my ID verification. Been 9 days so far, contacted live chat 3x since then and email once yesterday.

So process so far:
1. Submitted id and address verification by email early on 10/29.
2. Inet bet response(!) 10/30, requests credit card faxback form completed by hand. (There's zero reason they should need this, I only ever deposited with BTC.)
3. Reply with faxback form (emailed photo) within 4 hours. No response of any type.
4. Live chat told me on my first status inquiry (after 2.5 days of waiting) that i needed to wait 48-72 hours. On my second two requests (11/2 and 11/5 I think, though not 100% sure) they told me they couldn't do anything but would leave a note for that department. My email (1 day ago) has not received a response (inetbet lists email as their preferred method of contact). I received no followup after any time I contacted live support.

Normally, I would wait a bit longer before publicly complaining, despite the annoyance. But their own ****ing terms state:

"Your proof of identity must match your registered name and surname. If you fail to complete this process within 1 week (5 working days) after our request, your account will be subject to lock out and any winnings and/or cash-in made void. In cases of fraudulent documentation, your account will be locked and all winnings and/or cash-in will be void."

Their own slowness and complete lack of responsiveness don't even allow players to meet the terms they set themselves. That's not acceptable.

Edit: When I contacted live support the first time I even asked if they could at least just confirm that they actually received my document submission, and they said they were unable to do this for me - that only the respective department could. Not sure that makes any sense since I sent it to the main support email, and most casinos can at least confirm document receipt even if the specific department in charge needs to be the one to verify them.

That sucks man. I've had other casinos do the same to me. Seems to be a fairly common tactic...

 

[colinsunderland]

While not the topic of the thread, getting personally frustrated at inetbet's complete lack of responsiveness regarding my ID verification. Been 9 days so far, contacted live chat 3x since then and email once yesterday.

So process so far:
1. Submitted id and address verification by email early on 10/29.
2. Inet bet response(!) 10/30, requests credit card faxback form completed by hand. (There's zero reason they should need this, I only ever deposited with BTC.)
3. Reply with faxback form (emailed photo) within 4 hours. No response of any type.
4. Live chat told me on my first status inquiry (after 2.5 days of waiting) that i needed to wait 48-72 hours. On my second two requests (11/2 and 11/5 I think, though not 100% sure) they told me they couldn't do anything but would leave a note for that department. My email (1 day ago) has not received a response (inetbet lists email as their preferred method of contact). I received no followup after any time I contacted live support.

Normally, I would wait a bit longer before publicly complaining, despite the annoyance. But their own ****ing terms state:

"Your proof of identity must match your registered name and surname. If you fail to complete this process within 1 week (5 working days) after our request, your account will be subject to lock out and any winnings and/or cash-in made void. In cases of fraudulent documentation, your account will be locked and all winnings and/or cash-in will be void."

Their own slowness and complete lack of responsiveness don't even allow players to meet the terms they set themselves. That's not acceptable.

Edit: When I contacted live support the first time I even asked if they could at least just confirm that they actually received my document submission, and they said they were unable to do this for me - that only the respective department could. Not sure that makes any sense since I sent it to the main support email, and most casinos can at least confirm document receipt even if the specific department in charge needs to be the one to verify them.

Well lets hope you don't go on holiday or anything as if you don't respond to them you lose your winnings. wtf is that, how can that be acceptable from an accredited casino? Lock the account, yes thats fine, but void any winnings?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

'We hereby reserve the right to steal your money'

That's pretty much an FU clause as far as I can see, which are not permitted for accredited casinos, I believe.

 

[maxd]

I've since gathered a goodly amount of evidence related to this case that significantly changes things IMO. While we prepare that material I'm closing this thread. I expect we'll re-open later today or perhaps sometime Monday.

 

[maxd]

Quick update, finalizing a few details before we post the results of our investigation. Tomorrow is the day.

 

[maxd]

Ok, I've dug extensively into this case, received all the supporting evidence I could ask for from the casino, and as I see it it all comes down to the timeline, namely who did what and when.

The date of primary interest is, of course, the day of the player's mistake, play and winnings. That was the 24th of August and here's the timeline of that day as I understand it:

??:?? player deposits, receives bonus.
02:39 first bet at the casino as a new player plays a disallowed game, wins a little.
02:41 tried to contact Support via Live Chat, failed.
02:46 went on to play slots.
02:48 tried to contact Support via Live Chat, failed.
03:39 stopped playing after jackpot ($6000+).
03:46 player is in contact with Support via email regarding KYC for a withdrawal; no mention is made of any game errors nor requests for assistance regarding same. ...
13:25 ... KYC docs submitted.
18:18 player posts to the forums "for assistance".
09:09 (next day) Support re KYC: "Your documents have been added to your file".

Here's what I glean from that sequence of events:

a) the player broke the Terms. On those grounds alone I would have supported the casino's decision against this player. I'm not personally over-joyed that this casino is so strict about their Rules but I cannot and will not discredit them for being so. They may be strict but they are not dishonest and that's a damn sight better than can be said for a great many of the other operators in this business. And before we leave this point I just want to re-iterate that the player's first bet ever at this casino was on a disallowed game during bonus play. Is that a coincidence? Just asking the question.

b) contrary to this player's oft-repeated claims that he was unable to reach Support he most certainly was because I've seen the email exchange between them regarding KYC docs for withdrawal. That took place on the day and into the next. As you can see from the timeline that conversation spanned about 30 hours. I believe it is important to note that never in that email conversation did the player say anything about a game "mistake", not a single word. And furthermore the player has never thought to mention this conversation at any time since. These are lies of omission and that is the second case of necessary and sufficient grounds to rule against this player, not to mention kicking him to the curb for being deceitful.

c) this player was awfully fast to jump on the forums and "ask for advice." I have two major issues with this:

i) it's a flat out violation of our zero tolerance Posting Complaints policy which states that players MUST contact the casino rep before hitting the forums with their complaint on pain of being banned for violation of said rule. This is a second instance of grounds to kick this player to the curb.

ii) that post can as easily be read as a deliberate attempt to pressure the casino as it can as a innocent plea for help. And who posts their case on the forum "asking for advice" in that manner _while_ they are waiting for confirmation from the casino on their KYC docs? Something is not at all right here.

IMO, there are two major conclusions to be drawn from the above:

1) the player was either exceedingly unlucky to have violated so many basic principles of good player practice and conduct in such a short time OR this player isn't anywhere nearly as innocent and hard done by as they have since claimed. Either way the casino's decision against the player is valid and should stand.

2) For forum violations, dishonesty and attempting to use our forums as a stick against the casino this player is toast at Casinomeister.

Over the next few days the following significant events were added to the timeline:

d) when the player's withdrawal was denied his deposits were immediately returned. He never mentioned those returned deposits anywhere. Not on the forums, not in the many exchanges we've had since, nada.

e) when the player submitted his PAB he said nothing about his email conversation with the casino on the day. Nor did he mention the return of the deposits. In other words he submitted his PAB under false pretences and that is PAB abuse. Yet another reason -- the 3rd -- to be shown the door.

f) immediately after the player's so-called "trouble" with iNetBet the player went to their sister casino, deposited several times, played it all away, and over the following days took the comp points they offered and played them away too. These are hardly the actions of a player who has been mortally mistreated by this casino group.

g) over the following weeks the player and I were in contact many times regarding the PAB in progress. At no time did the player mention the returned deposits or the original email exchange with the casino. All he ever said was "they stole my money" and "I was never able to contact them". IMO this is a case of continued deceit. Again, 4th count, curb-worthy behaviour.

So "vat rezult" as an old Polish soldier I used to know would say:

A) the player broke the Rules -- intentionally or otherwise -- and per the Terms is owed nothing.

B) for forum violations, dishonesty, misusing our services for their personal agenda, and PAB abuse -- not to mention massively wasting my time -- this player's complaint is rejected and they are banned from Casinomeister.

This still leaves a few issues unresolved, namely:

i) what about the evidence to show that Support told the player, at the beginning, to wait? To recap, that was the grounds on which I ruled so quickly in favour of the casino.

ii) is the player truly innocent or is there something else going on here?

iii) how did the thread on the forums get so far out of control?

Let's deal with the easy one first, item (ii): IMO there are way too many oopsies and "mistakes" in all of this for me to believe that this is an innocent player who's been abused by circumstances beyond their control: their first __ever__ bet at the casino kicks this whole thing off: they talk to Support via email but never mention it, only moan about not being able to reach them on Live Chat: they post their issue to the forums __while__ KYC is in progress -- not after, not because of any rejected withdrawals, but BEFORE Support has even responded regarding the documents: the deposits are returned but never mentioned, and are later quietly played away: the player is supposedly being done over by iNetBet but meanwhile happily deposits (repeatedly) and plays at their sister casino, over several days, taking every comp they are offered: and later, once the PAB process is done and the last of the monies spent, suddenly the casino group are "rogues" and great energy is spent on moral outrage. Sorry but I don't buy it. I can't say what the player's game in all of this was but "innocent and hard done by" they are not.

Item (iii), the forum shit-storm: yup, that one is on us. We could have nipped this in the bud and we didn't. Our bad, though it was the weekend. Apologies to those who were mislead or needlessly maligned by the furor that ensued.

And, finally, item (i): the original info I was given by the casino, namely that Support had talked to the player and had been told to wait. Well, the short of it is that that never happened, at least not that way. When I received the reply from the casino it was after several days wait -- and unusually long time for these guys to reply -- and the rep I was dealing with apologized for having taken so long to get back to me. The info they gave me ended up not being quite true, but I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to deceive. I suspect they were careless, read the case records over in haste, and summarized them incorrectly.

So why am I making excuses for the casino here yet am happy to rule against the player? Well this is a serious matter and I've expressed my deep piss-offed-ness to the casino's senior management in no uncertain terms. We've since agreed that I will deal with them directly on any future complaints regarding their casinos. And that's good enough for me because -- hand to heart -- those guys I trust. I would happily hand them my wallet, keys and mobile and know that they are all in good, safe hands. Scoff at me over this if you like but I'm being completely serious here. I've known these guys for well over a decade and they've always, Always, played straight with me. Even when I was probably at fault and it cost them serious money to respect a decision I'd made. That counts for something IMO and so it is here.

Well, as they say at the movies, "Tha-tha-that's all folks!". We return you to your regular forum activities.

 

[Casinomeister]

I hope everyone takes note of the incredible work and diligence Max took to deal with this complaint. Kudos to Max

As for the player, he has been bootified from the forum for submitting a PAB that omitted seriously important information. And I honestly think a number of our members would have reacted differently if they had known that the player immediately received his deposits back, and was playing at the casino's sister casino while this transpired.

 

[Tirilej]

I just have to ask why a player would play one spin at a game that is not allowed to play? What can he gain from doing that?

He did tell about getting his deposit back, or was that maybe you Max who told us earlier because we knew when he got it?
I guess it's clear when you play at their sister casino that it's the same group. I haven't checked but I will. Edit: It's clear on the front page.

No, I'm not defending him. Just asking questions.

 

[maxd]

I just have to ask why a player would play one spin at a game that is not allowed to play? What can he gain from doing that?

Good question. TBH, adding all this up, I have a notion that I'd rather keep to myself. Wild speculation isn't going to change anything here so why get into it. I based my decision on the facts as I knew them. I'm happy to leave it at that.

 

[Tirilej]

Good question. TBH, adding all this up, I have a notion that I'd rather keep to myself. Wild speculation isn't going to change anything here so why get into it. I based my decision on the facts as I knew them. I'm happy to leave it at that.

I know that you know them and I wish I did too, because I still have too many questions not answered here. The guy might me a horrible person who did a lot of things wrong, and maybe he didn't deserve the winnings just because of that. I don't know, but I will leave it and don't question more.

I do hope that Inetbet will move that game from New Games in the bottom though so no one else will do the same mistake as he did.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I just have to ask why a player would play one spin at a game that is not allowed to play? What can he gain from doing that?

This is the crux of it for me.

As I read the timeline presented by max.

1) Player deposits and takes a bonus.
2) Makes a mistake with his very first game round, for entirely understandable reasons (game is listed alongside a load of other slots in the new games section). It's certainly not any sort of 'advantage play' like a single big spin on roulette, and exactly the sort of play you'd make on a slot with a decent bonus in play. ($2 on a $450 bankroll.)
3) He can't 'escape' from the mistake of loading in a prohibited game, because making a bet is mandatory once you've chosen a bet size, and you can only ascertain the game isn't a slot AFTER you've chosen a bet size.
4) HE IMMEDIATELY TRIES TO CONTACT LIVE SUPPORT BUT IT ISN'T AVAILABLE.
5) He goes on to play slots.
5) TRIES TO CONTACT LIVE SUPPORT AGAIN BUT IT ISN'T AVAILABLE.
6) He carries on playing and hits a jackpot, and then starts going through the KYC process.
7) Withdrawal is declined and deposit is returned.

So if we bring this down to brass tacks, and despite all the dark insinuations of nefarious intentions listed above, the guy clearly made a mistake, he played ONE SINGLE $2 GAME ROUND on a prohibited game, which conferred him no advantage and indeed voided his entire session as per the T&Cs, so it makes no sense whatsoever for him to do it - and was then denied a payout of over $6000.

(I mean, let's turn this thing on its head, why would he make that play on Banana Jones, as he immediately gives the casino the excuse to void his entire session on that deposit + bonus, for no potential advantage whatsoever?)

He's also been denied the right to reply as he's been banned.

Doesn't sit right with me at all.

 

[CasinoNinja]

I agree with Tirilej too.

Not defending him in regards to the PAB, all that stuff was broken and he should not have done it the way he did, he should have come clear out with everything that transpired to you including chat logs, deposit returned etc.

However, first of all I see no reason why he would play one game on a restricted game for "fun" knowing he would break the rules, it makes zero sense. And if it is true that it looks like a slot, and was under latest games that is just bad terms and conditions. It's stupid things like that, which makes a casino win in player disadvantage cases. Why not just put a blocker in for that game? It's easy, other casino do it.

As for him not telling support during KYC process, well. Thinking it from a players side, if you won huge and you knew that something could potential delay or worst case make you not receive your winnings, you would shut up and hope for the best and deal with it later if you don't get them. I know I would.


It's just annoying me that casinos get away with all this unreasonable terms all the time, no max bet protection, no games protection etc. It's 2018, the tech to implement these systems are in place.

 

[lockinlove]

Misleading during a complaint and PAB is one thing. Not good!

A casino voiding a jackpot win because of a single spin mistake is another. Not good at all and def not satisfied how this ended up at all.

 

[maxd]

IMO this is a "chocolate or strawberry" thing. You look at all the info and you decide whether you think this is just a bunch of "oh my gosh!" accidents that happened to an innocent player or something else entirely.
I've made my call and I think I can live with that.
I invite you all to do the same, as you of course already are.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

IMO this is a "chocolate or strawberry" thing.

It's really not max, and TBH you've said as much yourself in your previous post.

a) the player broke the Terms. On those grounds alone I would have supported the casino's decision against this player. I'm not personally over-joyed that this casino is so strict about their Rules but I cannot and will not discredit them for being so. They may be strict but they are not dishonest and that's a damn sight better than can be said for a great many of the other operators in this business. And before we leave this point I just want to re-iterate that the player's first bet ever at this casino was on a disallowed game during bonus play. Is that a coincidence? Just asking the question.

So in your very own words, the fact that the player broke the terms, and played a single $2 round on a prohibited game (a non-advantage play in every sense of the word), would have caused you to side with the casino anyway, so in a way the rest of your post is smoke and mirrors information that was extraneous and designed to skew things in a certain direction with implied intention on the player's part, along with hints at dark intentions without explicitly identifying them as such.

So the takeaway from this, in essence, is 'We will side with an accredited casino forfeiting $6000 from you as a player, if you so much as make one tiny little mistake that breaks their incredibly harsh T&Cs, and where that mistake is clearly the result of obscurity at best, and entrapment at worst, on the part of the casino. Moreover this decision will stand even where we agree that the player made two separate attempts to engage with live support to take advice on their situation, but could not do so because support was not available.'

 

[CasinoNinja]

Yup, full agree with Chopley.

The only thing I can see the player really broke with the casino was that one bet.
The rest is just a lot of he should have done this and that. Only one single bet, and he lose out on 6 grand. That is harsh.

 

[colinsunderland]

I respect Max's decision and I'm sure he has more info we don't know about, but I still say, if it was ONE round on a game advertised on the slots page (which it was) and it is impossible to quit the game once you load it (which it is according to people who can play there), then the decision to void the winnings seems unfair. That was the big thing most people have been talking about in the thread and its the one thing that doesn't seem to have been addressed. What happened after that shouldn't really make that much of a difference as it is the one game round that caused this, plus he tried to contact support twice, and couldn't.
That said, the OP could have done things differently, but he did mention getting his deposit back on post 48 on this thread.
If the casino is as trustworthy as they are made out to be, then presumably they have removed that particular slot from showing on the slot page at any point, and have changed it so you can exit without making a bet, so no one else falls into the same trap?

 

[lockinlove]

The problem I have aside from a player getting screwed by the casino, is that this might set a precedent for other casinos to use as an excuse that could basically give casinos free reign over players when it comes to this. And if at anytime, it can use this thread as an example. Every casino can now say, well you sided with a player that played a game that was confusing, listed in the wrong section and couldnt tell if it was a slot or not. Did one single spin, didnt even affect the outcome. So how can you get mad at us because we voided a 10k cashout because a player hit the max bet button that is located beside the spin button?

This players mistake was even worse than hitting a max bet button because of how confusing the game is.

I also recall the player stating he did get his deposit back too somewhere in the thread.

 

[nikantw]

iii) how did the thread on the forums get so far out of control?

I don't think it did! I think most members expressed general concerns and engaged into a general discussion about casino terms, bonus terms, fast payments, accreditation standards and other things like that.

Agreed that some were too fast to assign blame, but not the majority. And the reason was mostly some other problems with delayed payments or other things some have mentioned in the past.
I know nothing about it, but having those mentioned combined with no other info about this case..... didn't look very good.

I think this is a good thread. I think lessons have been learned from everybody and that is a good thing.

As a player, what I wanted to say from the beginning and what I can say now again loud and clear is: Read the terms, ask support, wait for confirmation before you play.

As for the accreditation standards, there was something that I wanted to say and is kind of what you already mentioned.
There are so many evil casinos out there, it's unreasonable for people to demand accredited = perfect.
Accredited = safe, professional, responsible and reasonable. But mistakes happen and we are here to help them do better.

 

[Broke]

As I understand it the OP made the mistake, took it to Support, Support said "can't help you, you should talk to management".

At that point the OP had a choice: do as suggested and wait to talk to management to get a final decision OR ignore it and proceed. If the OP proceed per the latter case I would decide, as the the casino did, that the OP had accepted their mistake and the consequences thereof.

IF THAT WAS NOT THE CASE, meaning the OP still wanted a final answer on the issue, then stopping then and there would have been the thing to do.

Yes I understand human nature and all the rest of it BUT there are times when one needs to do what is smart as opposed to what comes naturally.

So in the end - did the casino lie you about this or was that your own supposition?

 

[Casinomeister]

Max dedicated quite a few hours primarily focused on this issue, this was not an easy case by any means. But after careful consideration and discussing this at length, this is where we are at. We always make an effort to give the player the benefit of the doubt, but taking everything into consideration - and especially that he was not 100% upfront with us convinced me he was using this forum and the PAB service to get something that he wasn't going to get. We can speculate until the cows come home - what his intent was, or if it would have been dealt with differently 100% behind closed doors - I don't know, and neither does anyone else.

And yeah I get it, it's not a popular decision because it was against the player, not the operator, and most of you here are players. But we did our damnedest to be fair, and I feel that we made the right call here. We didn't just pull this out of our asses.

As Max stated, there were omissions on the player's part that should have not been made which would have settled this right away. We have been doing this long enough to know how and when to make these calls. As for him being banned - he knew the consequences of not being straight with us. We did not have all the information we needed to deal with this fairly/expediently/effectively, and the player knew it, and he successfully riled up a load of people to support his claim.

Lest we not forget , he was not out of pocket - he was back at a level playing field when he got his deposits back - which is a fair outcome when one breaks the terms of a bonus.