Resolved More problems with GNUf- taken back a 10k win

[jackieonweb]

Wrong.
The OP was well within the terms before, All Aces being restricted was only a recent thing.

GNUF lied to/misinformed the OP saying they got away with it before when in fact they didn't, it was allowed.

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin Note: Moved posts

Moved the William Hill bonus issue to here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/william-hill-bonus-terms-issue.41666/

 

[uki]

Moved the William Hill bonus issue to here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/william-hill-bonus-terms-issue.41666/

I only posted about WH in this threat to highlight that casinos have conflicting terms all of the time, which I felt was relivant to the threat.

I did not wish to raise an issue about WH whatsoever.

The point I wanted to make is that becasue the terms were contradictory and following the aguments of many on this thread, that if they failed to payout, it would be my fault and not the casino for screwing up.

 

[questa]

Perhaps all should go back and read the link provided by Kesch in her post showing the OP's prior actions.

The OP's prior post re GNUF shows that she did have an issue previously playing VP on a bonus (another reinforcement of tems knowledge) then used the forum to accuse GNUF of being theives and stealing. GNUF paid her as a goodwill gesture in that case and now playing VP again and blaming GNUF and everyone but herself. Perhaps hoping GNUF would excercise goodwill again as it did last time accusations were made

Reading her prior issue was the clincher for me- absolutely no excuse for not knowing the terms. This is not some poor innocent or newbie caught out by a hidden term which she would have had no idea was there. This is someone who has played before, had an issue before and either assumed they would get a free pass again if they blasted the casino or was still too can't be bothered to do her homework.

Any sympathy I had is now in very short supply.

Cheers
Colly

What are you talking about? That was a case where the casino told him he coudl cash out, then when he did they tried to seize his winnings as in fact they gave him the wrong information. Of course, they had to relent when it was exposed on here.

This is a totally different matter - the casino has told the player the terms have not changed since he last was paid, and that all games are allowed, when both these statements are false and have been used to deny the winnings.

Pretty clear to me that whilst the player arguably should still ahve read the entire document of terms again despite being told it was the smae as last time, the casino made mistakes with its false information and appalingly confused terms and should accept some responsibility rather than just seizing his win.

 

[heador112]

Its very annoying for the OP to lose 10K this way but he made a expensive mistake .


The player have to read the terms and conditions before he claimed the bonus . He havent done that .

If there is anything unclear than you have to call support for clarification and not just start playing .

The terms clearly statet that All Aces can void the winnings . It doesnt matter if Gnuf have not removed the term with all games are allowed.

It is a industry standard that casinos have terms like all games are allowed and a few lines later you find another terms that exclude certain low house edge games like All aces .

The terms all games are allowed often refers to all "game categories" are allowed . There are exclusions and you have to search at the terms for them .

I am sure the OP had never played All Aces if he had read the terms .


Even if GNUF paid him before when he violatet the terms (its not 100% sure) you cant blame them for that . It was probaly a good will gesture .


I would say Gnuf have to pay when they had changed the terms after the OP claimed the bonus but in this case the terms excluded all aces at the game weighting before the OP claimed his bonus .

I dont see that Gnuf did anything wrong .

 

[vinylweatherman]

Its very annoying for the OP to lose 10K this way but he made a expensive mistake .


The player have to read the terms and conditions before he claimed the bonus . He havent done that .

If there is anything unclear than you have to call support for clarification and not just start playing .

The terms clearly statet that All Aces can void the winnings . It doesnt matter if Gnuf have not removed the term with all games are allowed.

It is a industry standard that casinos have terms like all games are allowed and a few lines later you find another terms that exclude certain low house edge games like All aces .

The terms all games are allowed often refers to all "game categories" are allowed . There are exclusions and you have to search at the terms for them .

I am sure the OP had never played All Aces if he had read the terms .


Even if GNUF paid him before when he violatet the terms (its not 100% sure) you cant blame them for that . It was probaly a good will gesture .


I would say Gnuf have to pay when they had changed the terms after the OP claimed the bonus but in this case the terms excluded all aces at the game weighting before the OP claimed his bonus .

I dont see that Gnuf did anything wrong .

As an accomplished "advantage player" I would expect you to be reading all the terms and conditions, yet you have STILL been screwed because although you stayed within the terms, the casino STILL didn't want to pay, so started making up unwritten rules, pulling "spirit of" arguments, etc.

This shows that even reading the terms and staying within them is no real protection, if the casino doesn't want to pay, it won't - and you have a fight on your hands, which is essentially bullying the casino into adhering to it's own terms.

In the OP's case, maybe the previous issue DID have some bearing on the current one, and if it had not happened, GNUF may have been a little more flexible.

In general, casinos need to get away from this confiscation of winnings lark. 32Red have managed it, they use an alternative sanction, which is to subject the proceeds of bets that stray from the bonus rules to a 100x further WR before they can be withdrawn. 100x WR is more or less a confiscation, BUT one that at least gives the player a chance, and HOURS of "entertainment" in trying to make the 100x.

 

[colly]

Pretty clear to me that whilst the player arguably should still ahve read the entire document of terms again despite being told it was the smae as last time, the casino made mistakes with its false information and appalingly confused terms and should accept some responsibility rather than just seizing his win.

Just a few points on what is becoming a tedious and slightly ill-mannered thread

Not :"whilst the player arguabley"- a condition they clearly agreed to on sign up

"Told the same as last time"-At no stage told the same as last time - no query raised before playing and terms not checked for comparison

"Mistakes with false information"
Only mistake was a date stamp which the OP didn't know about till it was pointed out later

"Appalling confusing terms" - many of us are not confused by the terms but irrelavant as they weren't read at the time.

"Casino should accept some responsibility" = the OP has taken NO responsibility whatsoever and should be the one taking responsibility.


My prior post if it isn't selectively read is in regard to the fact that this player has had issues before but still doesn't read the terms, Has been let off before but still doesn't think the terms apply. Has been playing long enough and hard enough to know better and still won't take responsibility and blames the casino.Expects the casino to give her the beneift of the doubt but publicly claims theft and stealing. Being polite and trying to resolve an issue quietly and with tact first is always a better approach not to mention that old fashioned thing called good manners.

I have been playing 10 years online to date never not been paid, never had a bonus issue and never had to launch a PAB- I also read the terms and conditions before playing, choose my casinos carefully and query terms in writing if there is something confusing before I claim a bonus. I am either extremely lucky or perhaps I am doing things the right way

Sorry if it offends you but thats my take. A very harsh lesson for the player but maybe one she and everybody else should take note of and act on (meaning READ THE TERMS BEFORE PLAYING) rather than trying to put all the blame on the casino after the fact.

Cheers
Colly

 

[Nifty29]

*SIGH*

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

Datestamps, term 13, what the rep said could have happened, what the terms were last time they played, whether they were paid before, whether chickens have lips - ALL IRRELEVANT.

Why?

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

It constantly amazes me how the same people always jump in and insist that the player has done nothing wrong and should be paid - in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[ksech]

*SIGH*

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

Datestamps, term 13, what the rep said could have happened, what the terms were last time they played, whether they were paid before, whether chickens have lips - ALL IRRELEVANT.

Why?

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

It constantly amazes me how the same people always jump in and insist that the player has done nothing wrong and should be paid - in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

It's called "denial", they don't want to have to be the responsible ones. Today's society has made it easy for many to foist off the blame onto someone else. I will state it AGAIN! (this is getting old and tiresome *sigh*)
1) When you click that little box, "I agree to the terms and conditions" BEFORE you download the casino, you are electronically signing a contract. Most of the T&Cs will state "you are RESPONSIBLE for rechecking T&Cs frequently to insure no changes in T&Cs have occurred. The casino reserves the right to change/edit/delete any T&C WITHOUT notice".

2)We only have the OPs' side of the story and as MOST know there is ALWAYS two sides to every story. Perhaps this is another "con" job to get empathy from this community, and from the looks of it, the OP has alot of empathy/sympathy from the newbies (who, I feel are showing a complete lack of RESPECT from "older" members of this forum).

And finally, YES, IT'S A F*CKING PAIN IN THE ASS TO KEEP READING T&CS! BUT, perhaps the OP wouldn't have lost their winnings if they had simply taken the time and RESPONSIBILITY to recheck the T&Cs to make sure they hadn't changed. You do know what an assumption is? (Assume - makes an ASS out of U and ME). And why continue playing at a casino who you had problems with before (again only one side of the story was heard here too)? And why would you ASSUME that when one term states one thing and then the next term supercedes that one, that the casino will ALLOW you to only abide by the term YOU want to apply?

I agree with some, casinos with sloppy T&Cs need to be called on the mat. And as Max stated somewhere at some point on this site (too lazy to go looking for it, sorry!), there seems to be an influx of hit-n-run one hit wonders where PABs and generalized bitching and moaning sessions are occuring.

Tis the season to be jolly...

 

[steffigraff77]

I wasn't going to say anymore but Colly in particular seems to have it in for me:

Just to clarify Colly, my previous issue with Gnuf was not to do with videopoker. I simply did an early withdrawal and was allowed to. They cancelled it with no email to me. No explanation.My email was ignored.
I used CM to complain , a resolution was reached and i gained trust in the casino once more. I understood CM to be about complaint resolution. They did this very well and this is why i support everything CM stands for.

Here is another issue, sure mistakes were made but on both sides. I did a rush job on the terms and conditions and they did a rush job on the terms too. The fact is 10k was taken away from me and I was left to chase to find out what had happened again. Had it been only 1k , would I have been paid like previous times? Thats what caused me to rethink and post here. I did notice the June date and assumed all was fine. I will take some responsibility but i think the casino needs to also. As a result of this thread will they change their terms to make them more clear and transparent? And other accreditated casinos will also ensure crystal clear terms too?

I really don't understand why you have it in for me. Not everyone can be perfect like you and in ten years of playing you have not had a simple issue. Well done for that. But we can't all be perfect all the time. And one day you might need advice perhaps not to do with casinos but maybe some other aspect of your life and you would hope there would be some support for you somewhere.

I trusted the casino after the last little issue and would continue to play here if this got resolved. What amazes me is that there is a total confiscation of winnings not further wagering requirements or some other solution but the whole 10k vanishes. Funny thing is they would get most of that 10k+ back eventually.

 

[ksech]

I don't think it's the fact that Colly "has it in for you", but the fact that the same things are reiterated over and over again. Remember, we are not having a face to face discussion, so body language and voice inflection (two important factors when trying to convey a thought/feeling) cannot be taken into account. So, take a step back and put yourself in the readers' shoes (NOT as the complaintant) and tell me how YOU would perceive this thread...

 

[DiamondGeezer]

*SIGH*

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

Datestamps, term 13, what the rep said could have happened, what the terms were last time they played, whether they were paid before, whether chickens have lips - ALL IRRELEVANT.

Why?

The OP did not read the terms of the bonus they were taking.

It constantly amazes me how the same people always jump in and insist that the player has done nothing wrong and should be paid - in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

I can't agree with this atall.

What happened is that All Aces used to count only at some point this year they changed it but neglected to inform anybody. I know because I got caught the same way only I never had the big win before I saw the terms had changed.

I have no problem with the change but they should inform existing players of the change. Normally in UK law if you change terms for a regular offer you do have a duty to inform the client of the change.

This is yet another example of casinos ignoring common legal practise. It is getting very irritating that big groups like GNUF and Betfair just do as they please and act as judge and jury.

Lets trun this around. Why would any player play a disallowed game in order to profit from a bonus?

It's a sneaky move changing terms on a regular bonus without informing the player and is borderline rogue IMO.

I really feel for teh OP as this is a sick situation.

 

[steffigraff77]

Just had some contact with the Betway Rep and the matter is resolved to my satisfaction.

 

[colly]

I am happy you managed to get some resolution on this- it would not be a pleasant matter to have eating away at you over the holiday season.

I really hope that in future we don;t see you having this type of problem again.

Colly

 

[KasinoKing]

Just had some contact with the Betway Rep and the matter is resolved to my satisfaction.

Does that mean they're paying you the full amount?

This thread has attracted a LOT of interest and I think the very least you could do it tell us how it was "resolved to your satisfaction".
Or is it part of the deal that you can't post anything?

KK

 

[Jufo]

[Post removed]

 

[sambaEah]

Good to see it has a resolution.

Make sure next time when a casino has a term allowing all games and then banning some later on that you take that into account.



Merry Christmas

 

[casinokoenig]

gnuf confiscated winnings from me two times both for ~3k $ .
i played blackjack betting 30 $ a hand , and after that won on slots .

i submitted a PAB aswell - casino insisted that i broke the rules and voided winnings and paid back the deposit only - sucked ...

 

[vinylweatherman]

gnuf confiscated winnings from me two times both for ~3k $ .
i played blackjack betting 30 $ a hand , and after that won on slots .

i submitted a PAB aswell - casino insisted that i broke the rules and voided winnings and paid back the deposit only - sucked ...

Which rule?

Did you WIN when breaking the rules?

It seems different to the OP's case, where the rule was ONLY applied because the WIN was gained through a breach of the rules, yet in your case it seems the bulk of your win was NOT in breach of the rules.

Surely for consistency your SLOTS win should have been paid, and only the wins in breach of the rules should have been removed.

I recently read the GNUF terms, and they have changed AGAIN!!!!!!! yet the date is STILL 4/11/2010 at the bottom, and the date at the top has gone.

The change addresses the inconsistencies raised in this thread except one, the DATE STAMP. The terms are now clearer, with points 11 through 14 being consistent with one another about weightings and exclusions.

The OP, and others "stung" by this should learn from this, and READ the terms more frequently, and LOOK for any sneaky changes that may have crept in. We shouldn't have to, but it seems casinos are exploiting this TRUST we have in them, so we should REMOVE this trust, and make sure we always watch for the sneaky tricks.

Whilst most of these "tricks" would NEVER be allowed in our home countries, casinos tend to choose jurisdictions that give them far more leeway, and they CAN get away with almost anything. The FACT that outright ROGUE groups continue to flourish from some jurisdictions proves the point.

We have now also learned that even a date stamp on a set of terms is pretty worthless, and CANNOT be trusted on it's own.

It is worth noting that the link to the terms at the bottom of GNUF mailers takes you straight to the relevant bonus terms, so checking for changes is easier since it does not involve reading the entire document. This is how I discovered the most recent change, made AFTER the terms were quoted in this thread.

 

[Casinomeister]

Which rule?

Did you WIN when breaking the rules?.

This was from a PAB from last September where the player broke the terms and conditions of a bonus offer - the casino pointed out where he had broke them, reloaded the bonus, and the player broke the same rule again.

...placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account...

I really don't know what casinokoenig is on about since it is an entirely different issue.

 

[steffigraff77]

Its very strange..just to rub salt into my ten thousand wounds...they have now revised their terms and conditions to allow ALL Aces????

9. Unless stated otherwise on terms specific to a promotion, play at certain games will contribute a different percentage of the playthrough requirement:

100% - all Slots, American Roulette and all Parlor Games
50% - all Table Pokers (except Texas Hold’em), Red Dog, all Roulettes (except American Roulette), Casino War and Sic Bo
10% - all Video/Power Pokers (except All Aces Video/Power Pokers), all Blackjacks (except Classic Blackjack), all Craps, all Baccarats and all Texas Hold’em Poker Games
2% - Classic Blackjack and All Aces Video/Power Pokers

NOTE: playthrough (wagering) made using the Gamble Feature on Slots or the Double Feature on Video/Power Pokers will not count towards playthrough requirements.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Repro]

Wow... that sucks bigtime

 

[vinylweatherman]

It just shows there was never really a problem in the first place. They have not just allowed the game, it even COUNTS, albeit at a mere 2%.

 

[sambaEah]

Very poor form by them. I'm not shocked at all but this is ridiculous.

 

[cerdikola]

Absolutely epic

The deserve a place in the rogue pit. In fact, all casinos that void winnings for any stupidity should be rogued. They haven't catched me for this yet, but I know people who lost lots of money.

Example:

Casino Tropez (Playtech). The player JUST OPENED the (now extinct) Single hand Blackjack. He didn't wager a cent. Spent the rest of the 300€ deposit in slots and caribbean poker and won around 4000€. Then he tried to withdraw and they decided to keep deposit and winnings.

So, T&C can be as stupid as casinos want and change whenever they want without any notice?

Let me ask, because I see some people that has posted here who thinks that this kind of actions is acceptable.