L&L/All British Casino source of wealth - excessive, is it a stall?

[aimless]

I've recently been put through the Enhanced Due Diligence process at an L&L Casino (All British Casino), I've been engaging promptly with providing all documentation they request but they seemingly come manage to keep coming up with more and more bizarre requests. Just wondering what people's experience is with L&L/All British Casino and if they use Enhanced Due Diligence to stall payments/try and get the account holder to give up. I appreciate this is required as part of UK regulation these days but the depth they're delving in to seems beyond the remit, I've had some detailed due diligence checks in the past but this goes further than even those.

So far I've given them:
- Driving licence
- PayPal account ownership proof
- PayPal statements
- PayPal detailed transactions reports
- Payslips
- 3 months statements two UK bank accounts
- Credit card statements

and they still seem to be requesting more obscure reports/statements, some of which are very time consuming to ascertain and I don't see how they provide any further value to their regulatory requirements. Is this a known problem with L&L, should I have avoided them?

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[Oscar Arnhem]

@L&L-Jan

 

[L&L-Jan]

@aimless by the looks of your post it seems we see various of in- and outgoing transactions of significant amounts that require explanation and/or proof. Otherwise I can't imagine we're keep requesting extra proof, we want to complete the process as fast as possible and move forward.

If you can PM your username I can look in to it!

 

[slot_zombie]

UK slotting 2024. More intrusion than a mortgage application... sigh.

 

[andysbetting1187]

@aimi had to go through this multiple times with ABC - it was a pain but i will say that @L&L-Jan was a big help through it all.

Unfortunately I lost interest with the brand after all the hoops and my account was restricted to 5k a month (I could go over this but would have to jump through hoops) - a shame really as I did like playing there but excluded myself and moved on.

Always found the customer services there decent though - as long as you supply what is needed you will be fine

 

[AndrewPearson]

Chipmonkz has already indicated he is not happy the way things are heading, so I suspect some of the big brands will soon have no choice but to sort this sort of thing. It's extremely rare for him, himself to step into these sort of issues so watch out for a big disruption in the industry.

 

[DreddBeat]

@aimlessit seems we see various of in- and outgoing transactions of significant amounts that require explanation and/or proof.

How is that any of your business?

This is why I'll never join All British Casino.

 

[AndrewPearson]

How is that any of your business?

This is why I'll never join All British Casino.

It's entirely their business because by serving the United Kingdom market they have an obligation legally to avoid money laundering in Terrorist financing. If they don't do this they get fined.

It's the same as most other casinos in the United Kingdom except bookmakers who use this information for commercial reasons although they will never admit it

 

[Nate]

How is that any of your business?

This is why I'll never join All British Casino.

I don't think anyone at the L&L Brands enjoy subjecting players to this. To be quite frank I'm pretty certain @L&L-Jan doesn't give a toss where we get our money from - unless we stole it from him...

Jan and his team, just like all the reps from UK facing casinos, are helpless. This is affecting their business on a chronic level.

It's a case of comply or be fined. The fines are no joke and would have serious consequences for a business.

Nate

 

[Webzcas]

I don't think anyone at the L&L Brands enjoy subjecting players to this. To be quite frank I'm pretty certain @L&L-Jan doesn't give a toss where we get our money from - unless we stole it from him...

Jan and his team, just like all the reps from UK facing casinos, are helpless. This is affecting their business on a chronic level.

It's a case of comply or be fined. The fines are no joke and would have serious consequences for a business.

Nate

Yep @L&L-Jan is the can do man, but even he has to ensure they are compliant with all UKGC regs. So @aimless if there anybody you need to aim ( no pun intended ) your ire at, it is the UKGC.

Hopefully however, Jan will be able to assist you in ensuring you provide what is legally required.

 

[aimless]

Happy to report that it has eventually gone through, they did genuinely request far more information than was required when I got my mortgage and a lot of back and forth over small details but as others have mentioned this is unfortunately the case with most UK casinos these days.

I didn't have to reach out to @L&L-Jan in the end either so it's good to know they were able to get it done without needing any pressure exerted, thanks for the offer though.

 

[Webzcas]

Great to hear!!

Yep the UKGC are doing a fine job pushing UK players away from Regulated UK Online Casinos.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

How comes I can stake £100’s of K through the likes of 365, paddy, corals etc etc and have never been asked to supply anything other than basic ID???

Granted if I want an increase in deposit limits then they’ll pipe up.

 

[L&L-Jan]

Happy to report that it has eventually gone through, they did genuinely request far more information than was required when I got my mortgage and a lot of back and forth over small details but as others have mentioned this is unfortunately the case with most UK casinos these days.

I didn't have to reach out to @L&L-Jan in the end either so it's good to know they were able to get it done without needing any pressure exerted, thanks for the offer though.

Thanks for complying, muchos appreciated!

 

[L&L-Jan]

How comes I can stake £100’s of K through the likes of 365, paddy, corals etc etc and have never been asked to supply anything other than basic ID???

Granted if I want an increase in deposit limits then they’ll pipe up.

Need way more clarification on that 100k's your staking to be able to answer. Thresholds (which trigger verification processes) on our end are not based on stakes. Customers on our end are also able to stake over 100k, without even needed to provide basic KYC.

Also, each licensee writes their own procedures and decide on their own risk appetite. During an UKGC assesment, you are basically audited if you execute your own procedures accordingly. Plus are those in line with law and regulations.

Some companies decide for a higher risk appetite approach, or not executing their procedures accordingly and are fined. Our aim is to do as it says on the tin, execute what we have written in procedures, that also allign with the law and regulations. With the aim not to get fined.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Well it seems that in a lot of cases, numerous of which have been highlighted here and more elsewhere, that these requests are made at point of a sizeable withdrawal. Casinos will deny that of course but it is happening. Far too many hiding behind red tape to delay paying people. It’s disgraceful and needs sorting.

I’m not saying that’s the case in this particular incident but ffs, 7 different documents requested and sent and u still want more??? Come on!! Absolute nonsense whereby people have been asked to provide bank statements from 3rd parties because they sent them a hundred quid 3 years ago.

I’ve seen a lot of these types of posts levelled at L&L casinos. It’s great that ur a very active rep and always helping people out Jan but it’s a big red flag for me.

I mean I can’t be balls deep in bonanza chasing a feature and then get asked why I stuck a weekly shop on a credit card back in January ffs. It’s none of your fucking business!!

What ever thresholds you have in place, they need raising!!!

The really laughable thing about all these kind of stories is that in 99% of these cases while you are trying to get paid out is that you can still be allowed to happily deposit even more or spin off ur balance while all this nonsense is still going on!! I can’t think why eh??

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

Well it seems that in a lot of cases, numerous of which have been highlighted here and more elsewhere, that these requests are made at point of a sizeable withdrawal. Casinos will deny that of course but it is happening. Far too many hiding behind red tape to delay paying people. It’s disgraceful and needs sorting.

I think this is a common misconception, players are more likely to come on the forums and moan when any verification interrupts their withdrawal, but in reality it also happens on deposits too. It's just that people tend to move on elsewhere rather than kicking up a fuss.

As @L&L-Jan says, operators have set thresholds which trigger various requirements. The majority of these are based on total transactions (deposits + withdrawals) so yes, that "large withdrawal" can trigger something. It's not that we don't want to pay you quickly, it's because your transactions have hit a threshold because of the withdrawal.

Since the removal of reverse withdrawals (I fully support this), there's no reason for an operator wanting to hold on to your withdrawal other than to satisfy regulatory requirements. You can't play it, we can't bank it... get it back to the player so they can enjoy it and have a great experience. We just need to make sure we know where we are sending the dosh!

Mark

 

[thr0b]

Have to disagree there, Mark; it is much more common for these documents to be requested on withdrawal (by any casino/operator) than deposit. And casinos do then hold onto the money until they’re satisfied with the documents.

The only casino that I can think of asking for documents before deposit currently is CasinoCasino - and I can’t be bothered to do so. Especially as All British Casino isn’t asking for them, and is the better site anyway!

@L&L-Jan - always find this frustrating to be honest. I’m the same customer at all of your sites, with the same limits etc, but the individual sites treat me as a separate customer for the purposes of ID. Argh.

 

[goatwack]

Ah, the mysteries of enhanced KYC eh. Reveal your company's methods to users and it becomes liable to be exploited, yet under-scrutinize your players and quiver as the regulators begin circling!

And still no definitive, singular approach mandated by the UKGC to casinos, who've seemingly all been left to use their own methods, with some verging on being somewhat 'overzealous'.

Yet judging by certain thresholds of £100K+, they're more likely to be dealing with mid-to-high-rollers, than not, lest we forget that most casinos can't sustain million pound fines foisted upon them willy-nilly.

I'd shan't imagine I likely even broached those thresholds in over a decade's worth of slotting, but I'd hope the extra checks afforded would be rare. Though the flipside being that with everything being at the casino's behest, any player could be subject to their shrouded reasoning....

Bottom line is we can thank the UKGC for this hullabaloo, as they declare open season on higher bettors and with it, those that dream of withdrawing bigger amounts. Because as irksome as it is, once fined, I doubt players will be up in arms about it, but instead, skim the article with a cursory 'meh'. What are UK-tehered casinos to do?

 

[thr0b]

I suspect we’ll see a lot of UK-facing reputable sites go down the crypto route.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

It's entirely their business because by serving the United Kingdom market they have an obligation legally to avoid money laundering in Terrorist financing. If they don't do this they get fined.

It's the same as most other casinos in the United Kingdom except bookmakers who use this information for commercial reasons although they will never admit it

This sounds great and morally correct in principle but when this is applying to those of us who usually deposit £10-£50,the lower end mostly,then it's just a poor excuse. And any terrorist group is likely to money laundering through trying to wager on Bonanza!

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I think this is a common misconception, players are more likely to come on the forums and moan when any verification interrupts their withdrawal, but in reality it also happens on deposits too. It's just that people tend to move on elsewhere rather than kicking up a fuss.

As @L&L-Jan says, operators have set thresholds which trigger various requirements. The majority of these are based on total transactions (deposits + withdrawals) so yes, that "large withdrawal" can trigger something. It's not that we don't want to pay you quickly, it's because your transactions have hit a threshold because of the withdrawal.

Since the removal of reverse withdrawals (I fully support this), there's no reason for an operator wanting to hold on to your withdrawal other than to satisfy regulatory requirements. You can't play it, we can't bank it... get it back to the player so they can enjoy it and have a great experience. We just need to make sure we know where we are sending the dosh!

Mark

Well surely you’ll be ‘sending the dosh’ where you’d previously been sending it for all previous withdrawals would u not???

There are now so many examples of casinos and sports betting companies taking money, asking for absolutely nothing, allowing more deposits and THEN all of a sudden requesting stupidly over zealous documents at point of withdrawal. This is particularly common on sports betting sites that will happily take money until the tide turns with more savvy punters and then hide behind red tape and end up offering deposits back instead of paying out.

I’m not for one minute suggesting that L&L are bent or it’s Jans fault but it does seem that the group is featuring more and more in the complaints department rather than the complimentary department. Punters that play there are lucky to have had Jan sort out stuff in the past and credit to him for that.

But I think it’s naive of you Mark to suggest that this disgraceful behaviour doesn’t go on. It does.

Of course there are plenty of people looking to take advantage of restricted betting accounts etc etc and I get the fact that can be an issue. But to put it simply if ur gonna take the money and ACCEPT the bets then you have to honour them. Provided the general ID confirmation is legit. By all means ban or restrict the punter after or don’t take the fucking bet in the first place!!


I remember when I first set up my 365 account. A friend of a friend was a very shall we say ‘handy’ operator when it came to greyhound racing. He gave me the nod on a race. The first bet I ever placed after opening the account was a £250 win on a dog. 365 gave odds on greyhound racing way before other bookies. Hence why he told me to get on at that site. When I placed the bet I had to wait for a minute or 2 whilst the bet was being reviewed by traders. They accepted it. It got bumped on the first turn and lost. This was way before I even had ever span a slot on line. But even then, I was fully aware that had it won, I would have been paid out but the account would have been fucked immediately.

Now it seems it doesn’t matter, sites can just keep taking money until they decide to hit you with a request? Anybody wanna take a guess when that might be??? I am of course more referring to sports betting, but either way it needs sorting and clear rules put in place so EVERYBODY knows where they stand from day 1.

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

Well surely you’ll be ‘sending the dosh’ where you’d previously been sending it for all previous withdrawals would u not???

There are now so many examples of casinos and sports betting companies taking money, asking for absolutely nothing, allowing more deposits and THEN all of a sudden requesting stupidly over zealous documents at point of withdrawal. This is particularly common on sports betting sites that will happily take money until the tide turns with more savvy punters and then hide behind red tape and end up offering deposits back instead of paying out.

I’m not for one minute suggesting that L&L are bent or it’s Jans fault but it does seem that the group is featuring more and more in the complaints department rather than the complimentary department. Punters that play there are lucky to have had Jan sort out stuff in the past and credit to him for that.

But I think it’s naive of you Mark to suggest that this disgraceful behaviour doesn’t go on. It does.

Perhaps you’re right. Maybe I’m naive. I mean I’ve only been in the industry for 21 years.

I’ll reiterate - there is no commercial reason for an operator not to pay your withdrawal. You can’t reverse it any more, you can’t lose it like in the past. Why would an operator possibly want to not pay you?

We are obliged to do enhanced due diligence when you hit a theshold of deposits and withdrawals. If we pay you without verification after these thresholds, we get in trouble.

The majority of people who go through this process get pissed off. Most don’t come back. It DOESN’T benefit us financially. We employ teams of people to do the checks.

I’m a punter too and been impacted by this. Imagine how bizarre it is for me as an employee of a competitor to tell them what I earn and show them my bank statement of where I’m spending my money.

It is, what it is. No conspiracy. However I appreciate your opinion and reply.

One question for you though - why do you think we (industry) would want to delay your withdrawal?

Cheers
Mark

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Well I guess over the last 10 years or so I must have NEVER hit a single threshold despite deposits and withdrawals being well in the 7 figures across betting sites owned by the same groups.

I wonder if I’d played at L&L sites over the last few years I would have been afforded that luxury?? As you’ve said you are required to do advance due diligence when said thresh hold is passed. But it seems the operators set their own does it not?? It can’t be a set figure set by the UKGC? Or is it? I dont know? You’re in the industry u tell me?

Which takes me back to my original point? How have I been allowed to go through tens of millions of pounds in spins, wagering, withdrawals, deposits etc etc at the likes of sky, paddy, hills, corals, lads, 365 without EVER being asked for anything????? With exception of lads and corals asking for an updated ID just recently? Driving licence supplied and subject done within minutes.

Do these firms not have thresh holds? Or are they just turning a blind eye to it all?? Is this a new thing? Or has it been in place for years? I’m genuinely curious to know.

21 years in the industry eh? Jeez I’ve been punting since I was tall enough to hit the start button on a fruit machine 40 years ago!!!

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

Well I guess over the last 10 years or so I must have NEVER hit a single threshold despite deposits and withdrawals being well in the 7 figures across betting sites owned by the same groups.

I wonder if I’d played at L&L sites over the last few years I would have been afforded that luxury?? As you’ve said you are required to do advance due diligence when said thresh hold is passed. But it seems the operators set their own does it not?? It can’t be a set figure set by the UKGC? Or is it? I dont know? You’re in the industry u tell me?

Which takes me back to my original point? How have I been allowed to go through tens of millions of pounds in spins, wagering, withdrawals, deposits etc etc at the likes of sky, paddy, hills, corals, lads, 365 without EVER being asked for anything????? With exception of lads and corals asking for an updated ID just recently? Driving licence supplied and subject done within minutes.

Do these firms not have thresh holds? Or are they just turning a blind eye to it all?? Is this a new thing? Or has it been in place for years? I’m genuinely curious to know.

21 years in the industry eh? Jeez I’ve been punting since I was tall enough to hit the start button on a fruit machine 40 years ago!!!

Short answer is yes, the individual companies set their own thresholds (except a few which are mandatory for AML).

I wasn’t trying to be a dick saying 21 years in the industry and I’ve no doubt you have more experience on the “other side” but just trying to give you a blurry window into what we have to do buddy. I’ve got visibility from both sides, hoped you’d appreciate that.