Baptism by Fire - success Guts.com is giving it a go

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Unless I'm being a bit thick, can somebody tell me how the above relates to this thread ??

It doesn't. Nedplay was once in the pit I believe until taken over by 32red who unlike the previous owner(s) run it properly. Sour grapes as Nifty said it seems. I deduce that he resents the fact that to have a download MG costs 250k up front, whereas you can flash the games trough your portal for zilch, and he seems to insinuate that Guts are taking the p!ss and having an easy and risk-free time of things. Nothing to do with a good site design, good CS and integrity then.:rolleyes:
 
Sorry Bryan,

The flash MGS casino's are not going to work and cheap, you know that they don't have to pay the upront fee of $ 250,000 that´s why the start up every day. I wish I could do so. I admitt I am jeallous so my opinion has no value at all., as the old owner of nedplay.com. According to me, the backoffice guys have no clue about Casper, the backoffice software from MGS and they are probably hired from fLG or some other group, not bad, bot not worthy to be in your awarderd casino group, (especially cause I worked about 26 hours a day with a full MGS license and I got a hard time and now mr. Ed just bought it with community money and got it for doing nothing...)

Wished you were there to help me man, 22 hours chatting with players who wanted bonusses and extra's ...., and we gave 125% bonus, got hacked by som british superhosters... pfft...

unreal!

Dutchrobin
Arnhem
The Netherlands
dutchrobin@gmail.com
dutchrobin@live.nl

A few things. The cost of the Viper casino was not a concern, it was more the fact that we could not offer a multi supplier solution with the MGS Viper product, as you know. I actually would consider myself an expert on the Casper admin after lodging countless hours working on it but I don't really know how ones knowledge of one of many admin systems out there constitutes a good or bad casino operator. I would have liked to have Viper with Guts but I would rather offer players more than one game supplier, so that is why we did what we did. No idea what FLG is so can't comment on that.

The Baptism of Fire allows players to comment on the sites going for accreditation so I hope I have answered your concerns with Guts.

Regards,

Ben
 
A few things. The cost of the Viper casino was not a concern, it was more the fact that we could not offer a multi supplier solution with the MGS Viper product, as you know. I actually would consider myself an expert on the Casper admin after lodging countless hours working on it but I don't really know how ones knowledge of one of many admin systems out there constitutes a good or bad casino operator. I would have liked to have Viper with Guts but I would rather offer players more than one game supplier, so that is why we did what we did. No idea what FLG is so can't comment on that.

The Baptism of Fire allows players to comment on the sites going for accreditation so I hope I have answered your concerns with Guts.

Regards,

Ben

FLG is a firm which livestreams video games, provides a platform for whatever you want to put through to the end user. Trust me, as a customer, give me a variety of all the favourite MG/IGT/Netent games any day over the bloody cumbersome Viper download or portal for flash.
 
Another experience I want to share about guts.com

I am on a bit of a bad run on guts and because of that was given a free chip WITHOUT any wagering requirements.
I turned the free chip into a 250$ withdrawal. And 5 minutes later I received it in my neteller account. :thumbsup:
Very impressed.
 
There seem to be two main drawbacks to this venture.

1) The withdrawal fee. Nearly all casinos offer both free deposits and free withdrawals, especially when it comes to the eWallets. Those that have fees at least make their most preferred withdrawal options free as an incentive for players to use them in preference to others.

2) The bonus has both a 35x WR, a tad higher than the standard 30x at most MGS casinos, and is phantom, whereas MGS boni are cashable.

A minor issue is that "not all slots are equal" when it comes to the weightings used for WR, which makes the 35x on a phantom bonus even worse.

This may be enough to deter some players who would otherwise give Guts a try, especially the die hard Viper players like myself.
 
There seem to be two main drawbacks to this venture.

1) The withdrawal fee. Nearly all casinos offer both free deposits and free withdrawals, especially when it comes to the eWallets. Those that have fees at least make their most preferred withdrawal options free as an incentive for players to use them in preference to others.

2) The bonus has both a 35x WR, a tad higher than the standard 30x at most MGS casinos, and is phantom, whereas MGS boni are cashable.

A minor issue is that "not all slots are equal" when it comes to the weightings used for WR, which makes the 35x on a phantom bonus even worse.

This may be enough to deter some players who would otherwise give Guts a try, especially the die hard Viper players like myself.

1) I agree that the withdrawal fee is not ideal, i Would like to see it removed on eWallets.

2) 35xWR seems to be the standard when casinos offer games from multiple providers, it is cashable.
here from the bonus terms and conditions:
"All bonuses (unless otherwise specified) need to be wagered 35 (thirty five) times before the funds can be withdrawn."

As for the weightings, they seem pretty standard.

"Please note that different games contribute a different percentage towards the wagering requirements:
Slots and other games 100%
All games under the "classic slots" tab 75%
All tables games and video pokers 0%"

Link to bonus terms: www.guts.com/en/Page/general-bonus-terms
 
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There seem to be two main drawbacks to this venture.

1) The withdrawal fee. Nearly all casinos offer both free deposits and free withdrawals, especially when it comes to the eWallets. Those that have fees at least make their most preferred withdrawal options free as an incentive for players to use them in preference to others.

2) The bonus has both a 35x WR, a tad higher than the standard 30x at most MGS casinos, and is phantom, whereas MGS boni are cashable.

A minor issue is that "not all slots are equal" when it comes to the weightings used for WR, which makes the 35x on a phantom bonus even worse.

This may be enough to deter some players who would otherwise give Guts a try, especially the die hard Viper players like myself.

1) Fair enough.

2) Perhaps you should do your research before passing off opinions as facts. Refer to Blathaon's post.

The only different weighting is classic vs video slots, and the two categories are clearly marked and differentiated. No big deal.
 
A few things. The cost of the Viper casino was not a concern, it was more the fact that we could not offer a multi supplier solution with the MGS Viper product, as you know. I actually would consider myself an expert on the Casper admin after lodging countless hours working on it but I don't really know how ones knowledge of one of many admin systems out there constitutes a good or bad casino operator. I would have liked to have Viper with Guts but I would rather offer players more than one game supplier, so that is why we did what we did. No idea what FLG is so can't comment on that.

The Baptism of Fire allows players to comment on the sites going for accreditation so I hope I have answered your concerns with Guts.

Regards,

Ben

I've got a quick question here (just curious). Would it be feasible for a casino like yours to put the flash MGS software that most Viper operators have on their websites instead of Quickfire? I find it overall a lot better and a lot smoother. It takes a bit longer to load and you can't launch individual games directly from the website, but once loaded it's almost as good as the downloaded version.
 
I've got a quick question here (just curious). Would it be feasible for a casino like yours to put the flash MGS software that most Viper operators have on their websites instead of Quickfire? I find it overall a lot better and a lot smoother. It takes a bit longer to load and you can't launch individual games directly from the website, but once loaded it's almost as good as the downloaded version.

Hi,

Like the flash lobby? From what I remembered when I played it the load time was not the best and I always thought that the lobby was a little difficult to navigate. Also, I think but will need to check that the flash lobby is reeved to customers with the Viper. Really the only option for us is the QF product which I agree is not the smoothest experience but MGS have 2 upgrades planned over the next 2 weeks which should increase the performance of the product.

Thanks,

Ben
 
only partially impressed so far

Joined up at this casino last week. Straight up had difficulty with some MG games loading so played alternates no biggie. By the second deposit everything was cutting out mid play no matter what software. Spoke to chat they said should be no problem kept playing. Problem only got worse. They asked me to send screenshots I sent around 30 from different games over a one hour period. After about a day they said the problem was being investigated and suggested I try again which I did and have now had no issue. HOWEVER. They were supposed to get back to me regarding it and still haven't. Everytime I jump on live chat I'm on hold for an hour and it still doesn't go through, I request phone callbacks nothing and their emails are hard to understand. Disappointed would be an understatement
 
MGS have 2 upgrades planned over the next 2 weeks

Hopefully they found a way to match the Viper/NetEnt quality with Quickfire. I see no reason why they couldn't do it as they all use Flash. It appears that Quickfire was originally done to be "light" but I don't think people would care about the longer load time if the quality is there.
 
1) Fair enough.

2) Perhaps you should do your research before passing off opinions as facts. Refer to Blathaon's post.

The only different weighting is classic vs video slots, and the two categories are clearly marked and differentiated. No big deal.

This is still an unnecessary complication, and a recent "disease" that seems to be infecting the straight forward no worries "slots bonus" for "slots lovers". They are all slots, and are all high income games for casinos, involving no skill to play. The bonus was indicated as non cashable when I visited the site, but after all, I am from the UK. Either this is still an evolving set of terms, or geolocation is being used to show different sets of terms to visitors from different countries.

I am comparing with MGS, and with Guts, it is in some cases the SAME slots that I play in the Viper download with a 30x WR and ALL slots counting 100%. If anything, the classic slots should have a 125% weighting, not 75%, as in my experience they tend to have a lower RTP than the video slots. If the bonus IS cashable, then it isn't as bad, but is still worse than a Viper casino. The withdrawal fee also sets Guts apart from the crowd, but in a bad way.

Take away the bonuses, and the picture is a draw. Fast same day withdrawals, but at €2.50 a time.

For me, an additional disincentive is having to play in yet another foreign currency, which means fees of 2% or more each way as the money moves between casino and deposit method.
 
Joined up at this casino last week. Straight up had difficulty with some MG games loading so played alternates no biggie. By the second deposit everything was cutting out mid play no matter what software. Spoke to chat they said should be no problem kept playing. Problem only got worse. They asked me to send screenshots I sent around 30 from different games over a one hour period. After about a day they said the problem was being investigated and suggested I try again which I did and have now had no issue. HOWEVER. They were supposed to get back to me regarding it and still haven't. Everytime I jump on live chat I'm on hold for an hour and it still doesn't go through, I request phone callbacks nothing and their emails are hard to understand. Disappointed would be an understatement

Hi,

Can you PM me your username and I will get the support manager onto this as we have chat agents from about 7am CET until Midnight CET everyday (I know I am one of them in the evening) and I don't think our customers have had to long of a wait, so 1 hour sounds like something is wrong. If you requested a call back you should get one, so I will have Tony check into that. It is possible that they are still investigating the problems. If the issue is not being replicated or showing straight up in the game logs then they will need to investigate further. These investigations are done on the supplier side, we can push them but I can't fly to the office and put a gun to someone's head, if you know what I mean.

It seems that your problems have been solved, or is that not correct?

Thanks,

Ben
 
This is still an unnecessary complication, and a recent "disease" that seems to be infecting the straight forward no worries "slots bonus" for "slots lovers". They are all slots, and are all high income games for casinos, involving no skill to play. The bonus was indicated as non cashable when I visited the site, but after all, I am from the UK. Either this is still an evolving set of terms, or geolocation is being used to show different sets of terms to visitors from different countries.

I am comparing with MGS, and with Guts, it is in some cases the SAME slots that I play in the Viper download with a 30x WR and ALL slots counting 100%. If anything, the classic slots should have a 125% weighting, not 75%, as in my experience they tend to have a lower RTP than the video slots. If the bonus IS cashable, then it isn't as bad, but is still worse than a Viper casino. The withdrawal fee also sets Guts apart from the crowd, but in a bad way.

Take away the bonuses, and the picture is a draw. Fast same day withdrawals, but at €2.50 a time.

For me, an additional disincentive is having to play in yet another foreign currency, which means fees of 2% or more each way as the money moves between casino and deposit method.

Sorry, but the bonus at Guts has never indicated as non cashable and players from the UK are welcome to take the bonus, we even have GBP. I have had the same terms since 6 weeks before I launched and even had one respected CM member go through the terms before I published them in Beta. It is kind of like you are making things up to make Guts look bad which is not really fair.

Ben
 
Sorry, but the bonus at Guts has never indicated as non cashable and players from the UK are welcome to take the bonus, we even have GBP. I have had the same terms since 6 weeks before I launched and even had one respected CM member go through the terms before I published them in Beta. It is kind of like you are making things up to make Guts look bad which is not really fair.

Ben

I have had another look and have found another inconsistency.

You have "Track and Field Mouse" listed as a "video slot", yet it is a "classic" 3 reel slot of the "AWP" variety from Microgaming. The other AWP offerings from Microgaming are correctly classed as "classic slots". This does not make much sense.

Normally, this would not matter, except that the WR is different between "classic" and "video", a nonsense one does not see with the Viper download.

Fans of these multi provider platforms may be used to this, but if the aim is to convert "old school" players of single provider platforms over to the multi-provider concept it isn't very attractive as many players will start off with the games they know, and then start trying the new ones.

What is the "big deal" over classic slots anyway, what's wrong with the "keep it simple" concept of having ALL slots equal as most casinos still do?

So many casinos are too keen on making something simple more complicated than necessary, and this can cause problems for players. Each casino seems to have different complications covering the same games from the same provider, a sign that none of this is based on hard data.

I have seen many platform operators ban certain slots altogether, mostly Scrooge and Triple Magic, from being played on a bonus. If this is based on "hard data", how come Scrooge at Guts is weighted at the full 100%, whereas most of my favourites carry a 75% weighting. You don't offer Triple Magic.

The main difference with MGS is that "classic" slots run much faster than the "video" variety, making the meeting of WR that much faster, but this does NOT affect the chance of eventual success in getting a win & withdrawal once past WR.

I have also found two sets of terms and conditions depending on how the site is navigated. although they appear to be identical in content. This has caught other operators on the hop over updates to the terms where they have forgotten to update some of the pages, leaving players who found the "wrong" set on the site having to argue with the casino over the validity of their withdrawal. I was looking to see how I got the idea that the bonus was phantom.
 
I have had another look and have found another inconsistency.

You have "Track and Field Mouse" listed as a "video slot", yet it is a "classic" 3 reel slot of the "AWP" variety from Microgaming. The other AWP offerings from Microgaming are correctly classed as "classic slots". This does not make much sense.

Normally, this would not matter, except that the WR is different between "classic" and "video", a nonsense one does not see with the Viper download.

Fans of these multi provider platforms may be used to this, but if the aim is to convert "old school" players of single provider platforms over to the multi-provider concept it isn't very attractive as many players will start off with the games they know, and then start trying the new ones.

What is the "big deal" over classic slots anyway, what's wrong with the "keep it simple" concept of having ALL slots equal as most casinos still do?

So many casinos are too keen on making something simple more complicated than necessary, and this can cause problems for players. Each casino seems to have different complications covering the same games from the same provider, a sign that none of this is based on hard data.

I have seen many platform operators ban certain slots altogether, mostly Scrooge and Triple Magic, from being played on a bonus. If this is based on "hard data", how come Scrooge at Guts is weighted at the full 100%, whereas most of my favourites carry a 75% weighting. You don't offer Triple Magic.

The main difference with MGS is that "classic" slots run much faster than the "video" variety, making the meeting of WR that much faster, but this does NOT affect the chance of eventual success in getting a win & withdrawal once past WR.

I have also found two sets of terms and conditions depending on how the site is navigated. although they appear to be identical in content. This has caught other operators on the hop over updates to the terms where they have forgotten to update some of the pages, leaving players who found the "wrong" set on the site having to argue with the casino over the validity of their withdrawal. I was looking to see how I got the idea that the bonus was phantom.

You know, you could just be decent and admit you got it all wrong on the earlier "issues" rather than scraping the bottom of the barrel for another (non) issue. Admitting fault is character building.

It doesn't matter what YOU think SHOULD be classed as a "classic" slot based on other casinos. GUTS is entitled to classify games as they see fit.

As long as GUTS clearly defines what constitutes a "classic slot" , and AFAIK they DO, then nobody is being "misled" and there is no "inconsistency". Yet again....making up problems where there aren't any.
 
You know, you could just be decent and admit you got it all wrong on the earlier "issues" rather than scraping the bottom of the barrel for another (non) issue. Admitting fault is character building.

It doesn't matter what YOU think SHOULD be classed as a "classic" slot based on other casinos. GUTS is entitled to classify games as they see fit.

As long as GUTS clearly defines what constitutes a "classic slot" , and AFAIK they DO, then nobody is being "misled" and there is no "inconsistency". Yet again....making up problems where there aren't any.

The inconsistency lies in their logic, not the clarity of their classification for players.

Had they kept it simple as a slots bonus should be, this argument would not arise.

Maybe they have been fed these classifications by the provider, perhaps in the literature, in which case the provider's logic is in question.

My view is that the classification has nothing to do with the type of games themselves, but is a result of a "reverse engineering" of their desired WR weightings into a means to show the distinction to players without having to explain the logic. I DO know my Microgaming slots, especially the AWPs, and no matter what classification they are put into, it should be the SAME one for all the slots that MGS class as "Pub Slot" or AWP.

This would be a far better innovation in the industry if they did LESS of "what everybody else does", and focussed on what players grumble about in "the industry" in general. Charging for withdrawals even to eWallets is not a good idea, even though it is not "what everybody else does". Fast withdrawals ARE a good idea, because "everybody else" seems to think that players like long pending times. They could try making "standard" withdrawals free, but batch them as other casinos do so that they take 24/48 hours, and offer the €2.50 "premium" withdrawal service for players who want their payment processed right away, rather than being queued for the next batch run. Those players who value speedy payment over the fee will pay up, and this will also be an indicator of how much players REALLY value speedy withdrawals.

What I gather from this rather odd weighting is that there is clearly "something worth knowing" about ANY slot that an operator sets aside with a higher WR than the rest, or even bans altogether with bonus play. Whatever it is, it probably involves something that the providers would rather players NOT know about how the game operates, something that has been revealed in the highly controversial Spielo games incident, where the explanations involved a description of the underlying game mechanism that blew out of the water what I used to understand about how online games operated. I always believed that the virtual elements were coded to behave as they would if they were physical elements, for example that a slot would have reel stops, and each stop would be equally likely. The Spielo case showed that in fact the game in question was nothing more than a table of RNG results, most losing, and some winning, and that if a win was selected, the game simply made up the reel stop to display the relevant win. Maybe "classic" slots have something like this, rather than that they use virtual weighting as I had believed, and that this somehow makes them more favourable to the player, hence the decision by some operators to subject them to a higher WR than other slots that run under the Nevada or Aussie video slot model, which dictates that virtual reels should be modelled as though they were the real thing in physical form, with the stops unweighted.

It's hardly surprising the software developers want to keep this from the players, it blows away the myth that what we see in front of us is the game we are actually playing, and this is bad for business.

The new UKGC regime will require some of this information to be made available to players, such as the RTP, although this will no doubt be tucked away in help files that Mr Brear says "nobody reads". This should make these odd slot rules seen recently somewhat clearer.

For UK players, a big question is whether Guts intends to stick around and get a secondary license from the UKGC when the time comes, or will UK players be ditched after the first year for "regulatory reasons".
 
VWM why don't you keep it short?

1- Withdrawal fees = not good
2- Different WR for regular slots and video slots = weird and shouldn't exist

See? Fast, to the point, everyone will read it (unlike your walls of text) and Ben can quickly address the issues.
 
Response to VWM

Hi,

Sorry, won't add the quote here will just address the questions/concerns.

Games have been listed by me, right or wrong in your view and our bonus terms and conditions reflect the game categories as a whole rather than listing specific games in the terms which can be confusing for players. I believe that the terms and conditions are clear and have had them checked by other members whom all believe the same. We also removed wagering on free spin winnings as we thought that was not fair to the player.

The bonus terms and conditions can be accessed from a link in the footer and from a link on the promotions page for each specific promotion. The bonus terms are the exact same all through the site and we wanted to have links to the bonus terms in as many places as possible to be 100% transparent as one of the things that came up in the forum a lot were people confused by non clear bonus terms or bonus terms that are hard to find.

We removed all deposit fees at Guts, we have a flat withdrawal fee. If we were to remove the fee then we would need to raise the withdrawal minimum. Even if we process in batches we still have the same cost and even with the fee we do not cover our costs and bear all of the costs from deposit which is the way I think it should be. Perhaps down the track we will change this policy but this is what it is for now.

Regarding the UKGC we will look into this when the "time comes" just as we will with every new licencing authority.

The discussion about why "Scrooge" weights different at Guts than other places I am not even going to enter into, perhaps you should revert to your statement: This would be a far better innovation in the industry if they did LESS of "what everybody else does".

Ben
 
The inconsistency lies in their logic, not the clarity of their classification for players.

Had they kept it simple as a slots bonus should be, this argument would not arise.

Maybe they have been fed these classifications by the provider, perhaps in the literature, in which case the provider's logic is in question.

My view is that the classification has nothing to do with the type of games themselves, but is a result of a "reverse engineering" of their desired WR weightings into a means to show the distinction to players without having to explain the logic. I DO know my Microgaming slots, especially the AWPs, and no matter what classification they are put into, it should be the SAME one for all the slots that MGS class as "Pub Slot" or AWP.

That's really just semantics in all fairness VWM. Obviously some of their RTP's make a WR ev+ so Guts classify them distinctly. Their choice, their bonus.


This would be a far better innovation in the industry if they did LESS of "what everybody else does", and focussed on what players grumble about in "the industry" in general. Charging for withdrawals even to eWallets is not a good idea, even though it is not "what everybody else does". Fast withdrawals ARE a good idea, because "everybody else" seems to think that players like long pending times. They could try making "standard" withdrawals free, but batch them as other casinos do so that they take 24/48 hours, and offer the €2.50 "premium" withdrawal service for players who want their payment processed right away, rather than being queued for the next batch run. Those players who value speedy payment over the fee will pay up, and this will also be an indicator of how much players REALLY value speedy withdrawals.

Won't really work, and some will see payment as discrimination, i.e. I can 'buy' the status of favoured customer. Think about it - any casino with very fast 24/7 w/d's will have somebody overseeing them constantly. To arrange w/d's on the basis of 'do those who've paid now, leave the rest until later' would be illogical and wasteful. If somebody is there, they just want to fire the payments out as the requests come in, not examine each one to see if the customer had paid a fee first. I'm with Ben on that one.

What I gather from this rather odd weighting is that there is clearly "something worth knowing" about ANY slot that an operator sets aside with a higher WR than the rest, or even bans altogether with bonus play. Whatever it is, it probably involves something that the providers would rather players NOT know about how the game operates, something that has been revealed in the highly controversial Spielo games incident, where the explanations involved a description of the underlying game mechanism that blew out of the water what I used to understand about how online games operated. I always believed that the virtual elements were coded to behave as they would if they were physical elements, for example that a slot would have reel stops, and each stop would be equally likely. The Spielo case showed that in fact the game in question was nothing more than a table of RNG results, most losing, and some winning, and that if a win was selected, the game simply made up the reel stop to display the relevant win. Maybe "classic" slots have something like this, rather than that they use virtual weighting as I had believed, and that this somehow makes them more favourable to the player, hence the decision by some operators to subject them to a higher WR than other slots that run under the Nevada or Aussie video slot model, which dictates that virtual reels should be modelled as though they were the real thing in physical form, with the stops unweighted.

I think you're overcomplicating things here. I differ from your view above insomuch as I ALWAYS from day one of playing slots online (as you will no doubt have seen many times in my other posts) realized that the reels were simply graphics reflecting an RNG outcome/win value. It was quite obvious, given that there is no need to have complicated software doing random stops for each virtual reel to achieve the same result as the RNG has picked first. Whether 'classic' slots do this or not is hardly relevant anyway, it's more the fact that they are adaptive so can be manipulated by the player.

It's hardly surprising the software developers want to keep this from the players, it blows away the myth that what we see in front of us is the game we are actually playing, and this is bad for business.

Not really - what is important is the player experience, and the fact he will get paid his TRTP over time with the peaks and troughs that go with it. Whether his TRTP is produced through one RNG value up front or one RNG for each reel he probably couldn't give a crap about as long as the game does what it says on the tin.

The new UKGC regime will require some of this information to be made available to players, such as the RTP, although this will no doubt be tucked away in help files that Mr Brear says "nobody reads". This should make these odd slot rules seen recently somewhat clearer.

For UK players, a big question is whether Guts intends to stick around and get a secondary license from the UKGC when the time comes, or will UK players be ditched after the first year for "regulatory reasons".

That would depend on how punitive the new regime is, and how much of a customer base they have in the UK prior to the changes. I doubt it would be too punitive, but if it was it would be a mistake as we would lose some good sites which we enjoy now. It all comes down to the money in the end.
 
There seem to be two main drawbacks to this venture.

1) The withdrawal fee. Nearly all casinos offer both free deposits and free withdrawals, especially when it comes to the eWallets. Those that have fees at least make their most preferred withdrawal options free as an incentive for players to use them in preference to others.

2) The bonus has both a 35x WR, a tad higher than the standard 30x at most MGS casinos, and is phantom, whereas MGS boni are cashable.

A minor issue is that "not all slots are equal" when it comes to the weightings used for WR, which makes the 35x on a phantom bonus even worse.

This may be enough to deter some players who would otherwise give Guts a try, especially the die hard Viper players like myself.

No, the bonus is cashable. I turned one to cash when I started there; when you hit the 35xWR the whole lot turns to cash. The only difference aside from the 30x Viper MG WR you mention is that you don't get fed the bonus in cash increments like you do on some MG fairpay systems.
 
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