Dead or Alive statistics

[gagamel]

What you call random is a math algorithm, it's not the same of a real life test (where thousands variables can influence the results).
A casino software is designed to produce incomes. The software is designed with an alghoritm that produce what you call "random" but it's under parameters that are surely linked to the amount deposited from players, not from a single player (if not the casino risks to bankrupt).
The software manages the payout results checking all player deposits, not checking the single one player to make him loose. It gives the illusion of casuality.
Of course player winnings are under the algorithm that gives the idea to be fortuitous, but at the end it's not like a real life random test.
Roulette softwares are different because the game generates incomes by itself (with the zero house hedge) and the software alghoritm (with its middle-long term cyclic nature) is beatable even if 0.0001 players (or less) can do it, the rest of players loose and it's enough for the casino accountig dep. In fact bonuses are very rare on roulette softwares.
Try to win 1000€ at Casino Floor if you can

Do you have any proof for your statement? AFAIK the TRTP is calculated over millions of spins with a lot of different players. And AFAIK the casino has no influence to the gameplay.

What you say is, that the game provider is able to see how many players are playing in a casino. They know the bet size of every player for every game in every minute. And then they are able to calculate how much I have to win or lose? And all that for more than 100 casinos with 1000s of players. Wow. If I believe in that I need dunover to buy a tin foil hat.

I believe, that when I`m lucky, I can play 10 spins and have a RTP of 5000%.
If I play the same game for 2.5 million spins my RTP would be the same as the TRTP, mostly 96%.
Casinos have a lot of options to pay out big wins without going bankrupt. Like maximum bet sizes and of course withdrawal limits, 2000 a week or something.
I play now Jack Hammer at a casino, my RTP is 66% at the moment (after 400 spins). It`s sunday evening and a lot of players are around.
If you are right then someone made a really big hit with this game.
But for sure, I don`t believe your theory.

 

[zreb]

What you call random is a math algorithm, it's not the same of a real life test (where thousands variables can influence the results).
A casino software is designed to produce incomes. The software is designed with an alghoritm that produce what you call "random" but it's under parameters that are surely linked to the amount deposited from players, not from a single player (if not the casino risks to bankrupt).
The software manages the payout results checking all player deposits, not checking the single one player to make him loose. It gives the illusion of casuality.
Of course player winnings are under the algorithm that gives the idea to be fortuitous, but at the end it's not like a real life random test.
Roulette softwares are different because the game generates incomes by itself (with the zero house hedge) and the software alghoritm (with its middle-long term cyclic nature) is beatable even if 0.0001 players (or less) can do it, the rest of players loose and it's enough for the casino accountig dep. In fact bonuses are very rare on roulette softwares.
Try to win 1000€ at Casino Floor if you can

Random slots work with the exact same principle as a roulette game, they don't need to do anything extra to generate an income. They just have a far more complicated paytable. Each result has a certain probability of occurring, and if you add up all those probabilities, times the payout %, you end up with the game's expected RTP. It has absolutely nothing to do with other players, amounts deposited, or any of that. The slot does not need to collect money before it pays out.

The only slots that work like what you are saying are usually called "compensated" or "fruit machine" slots, and are an entirely different entity. Normal slots have no need to do this. There is no need for any sort of cycle, for money to be stored in the slot, or any dependence on past events. In roulette, the house edge comes from the fact that the house only pays you 35:1 instead of the fair 36:1. Slots are the same - the house edge is built into the paytable. The slot and it's paytable are designed so that nothing more needs to be done. The house gains its income because the slot is designed to pay out slightly less than it puts in, on average, for any spin of the reels. Past events, other players, and all such things are irrelevent. There are no pre-designed "cycles" of outcomes.

Random numbers are another issue. They don't need to be "truly random," they just need to be unpredictable, sufficiently non-correlated with prior numbers, and evenly distributed (in the long-term). Many softwares have their RNGs evaluated by an independent auditor to ensure fairness. If you think a software provider's RNG fails in any of these ways, that would be a serious accusation. If it is successful in all these regards, for our purposes, it's just as good as if it were truly random. If it is not, it could potentially be exploited for large amounts of money or be providing players with an unfair game.

 

[biemme]

Random slots work with the exact same principle as a roulette game, they don't need to do anything extra to generate an income. They just have a far more complicated paytable. Each result has a certain probability of occurring, and if you add up all those probabilities, times the payout %, you end up with the game's expected RTP. It has absolutely nothing to do with other players, amounts deposited, or any of that. The slot does not need to collect money before it pays out.

The only slots that work like what you are saying are usually called "compensated" or "fruit machine" slots, and are an entirely different entity. Normal slots have no need to do this. There is no need for any sort of cycle, for money to be stored in the slot, or any dependence on past events. In roulette, the house edge comes from the fact that the house only pays you 35:1 instead of the fair 36:1. Slots are the same - the house edge is built into the paytable. The slot and it's paytable are designed so that nothing more needs to be done. The house gains its income because the slot is designed to pay out slightly less than it puts in, on average, for any spin of the reels. Past events, other players, and all such things are irrelevent. There are no pre-designed "cycles" of outcomes.

Random numbers are another issue. They don't need to be "truly random," they just need to be unpredictable, sufficiently non-correlated with prior numbers, and evenly distributed (in the long-term). Many softwares have their RNGs evaluated by an independent auditor to ensure fairness. If you think a software provider's RNG fails in any of these ways, that would be a serious accusation. If it is successful in all these regards, for our purposes, it's just as good as if it were truly random. If it is not, it could potentially be exploited for large amounts of money or be providing players with an unfair game.

Nice post, i hope you are right. I'm testing a simple rtg slot to find cycles in the "random" (like i've succesfully found in roulette softwares). If you are right slots are beatable too with the right progression. I really hope that you are right even if i'm a bit skeptical.

 

[gagamel]

Nice post, i hope you are right. I'm testing a simple rtg slot to find cycles in the "random" (like i've succesfully found in roulette softwares). If you are right slots are beatable too with the right progression. I really hope that you are right even if i'm a bit skeptical.

Buy a tin foil hat

 

[Balthazar]

After experiencing many redflags, I've been expressing some doubts about NetEnt's randomness here lately and these free spins sessions might confirm them. Remember Chop what happened with Starburst in free play? I start to see a pattern here.

If NetEnt's slots are somehow compensated as a whole, that could explain the shitty paytables on recent slots. They wouldn't want to have too many slots capable of emptying the "reserve" because it would ruin the experience of other players.

Pass me the tinfoil hat, but I'll keep an eye on this thread.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

After experiencing many redflags, I've been expressing some doubts about NetEnt's randomness here lately and these free spins sessions might confirm them. Remember Chop what happened with Starburst in free play? I start to see a pattern here.

If NetEnt's slots are somehow compensated as a whole, that could explain the shitty paytables on recent slots. They wouldn't want to have too many slots capable of emptying the "reserve" because it would ruin the experience of other players.

Pass me the tinfoil hat, but I'll keep an eye on this thread.

I'll have to dig out the paperwork but IIRC my final spin count on Starburst was 320,000 and it didn't hit over 300x stake, and this is on a low variance slot that advertises a 500x stake jackpot.

Now that I have the means to generate free spins results massively quicker than I did back then (I can currently sustain 15x normal speed without any trouble), I might have another go at it.

Gonna finish off with DoA first though.

I have to say that the way Netent's slots roll has struck me as slightly odd on more than one occasion, you can explain away the high RTP yet appalling gameplay to an extent with the awful way they construct their paytables, but maybe there is something else going on.

 

[mrmark21]

I'll have to dig out the paperwork but IIRC my final spin count on Starburst was 320,000 and it didn't hit over 300x stake, and this is on a low variance slot that advertises a 500x stake jackpot.

Now that I have the means to generate free spins results massively quicker than I did back then (I can currently sustain 15x normal speed without any trouble), I might have another go at it.

Gonna finish off with DoA first though.

I have to say that the way Netent's slots roll has struck me as slightly odd on more than one occasion, you can explain away the high RTP yet appalling gameplay to an extent with the awful way they construct their paytables, but maybe there is something else going on.

Yes I've noticed that as well. I think this could have something to do with the PRNG as I'm pretty sure they go in accordance to certain algorithms.

 

[dunover]

Sorry, I won't be sending Balt/Chopley or Mark any tinfoil hats at the moment, as there seems to be some valid questions regarding Netent's gimping of certain games. If you compare the free games data/evidence from netent and stand it next to MG's equivalent-variance slots, well.....

 

[biemme]

Now that I have the means to generate free spins results massively quicker than I did back then (I can currently sustain 15x normal speed without any trouble), I might have another go at it.

How do you do 15x? does it depend from processor (i7?) or from something else?

 

[Wild Reels]

you can use cheatengine to modify the spin speed, by running their "speedhack" on the flash component, thats the only method i know im sure there is others.

 

[biemme]

you can use cheatengine to modify the spin speed, by running their "speedhack" on the flash component, thats the only method i know im sure there is others.

Is it possible that the casino notices it? could it go against their terms and conditions and compromise winnings?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Is it possible that the casino notices it? could it go against their terms and conditions and compromise winnings?

As long as you never try to interfere with a real play session, you should be fine. Not that you could anyway since the server always knows what's going on and will overrule anything your client tries to tell it.

The Netent servers don't seem to mind how fast they deliver free play results, (to a point, over 15x and it starts to get flaky), similar situation with MG which is how kktmd managed to get his one million spin sample.

 

[Balthazar]

Is it possible that the casino notices it? could it go against their terms and conditions and compromise winnings?

I'd not try it in real money mode.

 

[dunover]

Right - I've just finished my 50k spins running last night and up to this morning.
I have now had 257 bonus rounds. I have had 3x 5 extra spins, but still NO line of 5, but one of the 3 did pay 889x stake.
I did however hit the 5 scatters for 2500x stake on the 43-44000 spins session. And IIRC the bonus round actually paid 343x stake too!
I am playing 90p spins and would be down now £2,456.40p!! The 5 scatter win saved this from being 5k in the hole.
I seem to have had less bonus rounds than Blathons figures suggest is the average at 150-ish spins. My bonus rounds average 1/195 spins. Therefore I would expect them to become more frequent as I carry on, though obviously this isn't guaranteed.

The people who play this and regularly post the big wins must have deep pockets and be playing the bloody thing 24/7.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Interesting stats there dunover, especially as you're tracking more data than I am. At least you've managed to hit five scatters which is better than I achieved!

I haven't done any more spins so am still at 137K (been ragging the arse out of Battlefield 4 and can't be bothered starting the next block of 1000 spins on the media centre PC every 15 minutes), but I will resume in due course.

However, between us we have now done nearly TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND SPINS and neither of us have seen the five wilds on a winline in free spins, and have lost what would be many thousands of pounds in real money play. (If it weren't for your five scatters we'd be looking at a combined loss of pushing up towards £10,0000 with me on 36p play and you on 90p play.)

Scary statistics TBH, I can only repeat what I said early in the thread, this slot is a monstrosity, and I absolutely cannot understand where rolastan's screenshots are coming from on such a regular basis.

 

[Blathaon]

Right - I've just finished my 50k spins running last night and up to this morning.
I have now had 257 bonus rounds. I have had 3x 5 extra spins, but still NO line of 5, but one of the 3 did pay 889x stake.
I did however hit the 5 scatters for 2500x stake on the 43-44000 spins session. And IIRC the bonus round actually paid 343x stake too!
I am playing 90p spins and would be down now £2,456.40p!! The 5 scatter win saved this from being 5k in the hole.
I seem to have had less bonus rounds than Blathons figures suggest is the average at 150-ish spins. My bonus rounds average 1/195 spins. Therefore I would expect them to become more frequent as I carry on, though obviously this isn't guaranteed.

The people who play this and regularly post the big wins must have deep pockets and be playing the bloody thing 24/7.

With regards to the average being 1 in 150 spins. I don't know this for sure, i haven't logged the actual spin amount, only the features. So it might not be 1 in 150, but it's probably not far off. The 1 in 150 is just the number that have been floating around here at CM.

May i ask how you know how many features you have had?
Do you log them somehow, or is it just manual recording like i have done?

 

[biemme]

Scary statistics TBH, I can only repeat what I said early in the thread, this slot is a monstrosity, and I absolutely cannot understand where rolastan's screenshots are coming from on such a regular basis.

As Rolastan said he changes often casino to keep the highest bonuses, and i think he selects the most populars where the number of deposits is high (big money pot). Making a statistic on a single casino in fun mode is not the same because the algorithm is not influenced from the deposits pot and from the other players spins/winnings.
I'm starting to be a bit proud of my tin foil hat

 

[dunover]

Just log them on a piece of paper in column, 0-10 x stake, 10-50 x stake, 100-500x stake, 500-999x stake and 1000+ x stake. So far none of 1000+, 1 in the 500-999x column. The 5 scatters is logged at 2843 x stake in the 100-500x column separately as technically the freespins yielded 343x stake.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As Rolastan said he changes often casino, and i think he selects the most populars where the number of deposits is high (big money pot). Making a statistic on a single casino in fun mode is not the same because the algorithm is not influenced from the deposits pot.

It should be exactly the same because every request to the server for a spin result should be treated exactly the same irrespective of free play, real play, which casino it's coming from, and so on.

The algorithm should not and must not be influenced by ANYTHING, it's a call to a server for a random result and every call must be handled in an identical fashion.

If Netent's slots worked the way you are describing they would be fundamentally cheating and unfair.

 

[biemme]

If Netent's slots worked the way you are describing they would be fundamentally cheating and unfair.

Welcome in the Netent world

There is another little red flag that suggests me to say that. I'm a roulette player, and ONLY Netent roulettes permit to bet ONLY 0,1-1€ on a single number (1:35). Usually the range of this bet is from 0.1-5€ to 0,1-100/1000 depending from the casino size.
I think i don't need to add anything more, right?

 

[Blathaon]

Just log them on a piece of paper in column, 0-10 x stake, 10-50 x stake, 100-500x stake, 500-999x stake and 1000+ x stake. So far none of 1000+, 1 in the 500-999x column. The 5 scatters is logged at 2843 x stake in the 100-500x column separately as technically the freespins yielded 343x stake.

ok, what threw me off was that you said that you knew the spin count AND the feature count. so that made me think that maybe you had some software to keep track. Because it's kinda hard to keep track of spins if you have a stop trigger for free spins.

when i play for real i always have it on auto spin with a stop trigger for free spins, so i have no idea of how many spins i have done. other than to assume that the 150 spin average is correct and multiply that with the number of features that i have logged.

 

[Finn]

Is it possible that the casino notices it? could it go against their terms and conditions and compromise winnings?

Paf has disabled Quick Spin and early stopping of the spin animation by second click in NetEnt games, so casinos could definitely argue that spin settings are something to be decided by the casino, and not to be tampered with.

Anyway "speed hack" most likely wouldn't help in "play for real money" mode, because on every NetEnt casino the real money mode runs more slowly than the demo mode, on some casinos the real money mode is only slightly slower most of time, barely noticeable, on some casinos a lot slower. Because free play mode is so smooth on all casinos, my gut feeling is that free play servers are common to all netent casinos and located where ever the best location for servers in Europe is, maybe in Germany connected to some internet uber bahn or something, and NetEnt has used lots of hardware on them relative to rate of use. The "online gambling tax heaven" islands where the real servers are located for tax reasons don't have same level of internet connection as the best server locations in Europe, and some casinos may have not good enough hardware compared to how many players they have playing the games.

 

[biemme]

Fun mode can be faster becasue the algorithm is calculated on your pc processor, so you can hack it. When you play in real mode it is calculated from the casino server. There is a very big difference in results. I've read many threads on this topic. There were similar comparisons for roulette software in fun/real play mode. I'm sure of that.

 

[dunover]

Fun mode can be faster becasue the algorithm is calculated on your pc processor, so you can hack it. When you play in real mode it is calculated from the casino server. There is a very big difference in results. I've read many threads on this topic. There were similar comparisons for roulette software in fun/real play mode. I'm sure of that.

There is some sense in what your are saying, it's entirely possible BUT it's thus far only your theory - can you prove any of this?

 

[biemme]

There is some sense in what your are saying, it's entirely possible BUT it's thus far only your theory - can you prove any of this?

I could prove it only with roulette but it's a very long and boring demonstration. It means observing roulette results in a special way. And if i do i will reveal the secret behind my strategy and i prefer to keep my discoverings private.

 

[gagamel]

Fun mode can be faster becasue the algorithm is calculated on your pc processor, so you can hack it. When you play in real mode it is calculated from the casino server. There is a very big difference in results. I've read many threads on this topic. There were similar comparisons for roulette software in fun/real play mode. I'm sure of that.

Sorry, that is BS.

 

[gagamel]

I could prove it only with roulette but it's a very long and boring demonstration. It means observing roulette results in a special way. And if i do i will reveal the secret behind my strategy and i prefer to keep my discoverings private.

BS as well. To observe roulette in a special way has no result for players in the last 200 years. I know that there were some mistakes in the
landbased cauldrons. And some guys found a way to make profits. But this is a lot of years ago. Your way is wrong and you will lose because there is no way to cheat.

 

[gagamel]

I could prove it only with roulette but it's a very long and boring demonstration. It means observing roulette results in a special way. And if i do i will reveal the secret behind my strategy and i prefer to keep my discoverings private.

You are condemned as untrustworthy.

 

[Balthazar]

Let's not forget this post:

At NetEnt we like to make our games individual and unique. In keeping with this, some games will have very different mathematics in the freespins/bonus rounds

So the base game could be the exact same in free play and real play, but the very different mathematics could kick in only in real play, thus allowing a line of wilds. For all we know it could act similar to a progressive jackpot.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So the base game could be the exact same in free play and real play, but the very different mathematics could kick in only in real play, thus allowing a line of wilds. For all we know it could act similar to a progressive jackpot.

That's an interesting thought..... DoA is capable of insane hits, a couple of high-rollers hitting one of those 4000-5000x stake monsters at one casino in an evening could cause some serious carnage.....

So yeah, how about everyone playing for real feeds into a hidden 'progressive' pot, and when there's enough cash in there, randomly release the 'five wilds winline' to a player, if it's a high-roller, then the pot will take a lot longer to fill up again, to protect casinos from business-disrupting payouts.

After all, DoA is unique in NetEnt's slot library, they do have a couple of other high variance efforts in there (JATB/Reel Steal) but nothing that seems to hit as big and as regularly as DoA, and they certainly haven't produced anything like it for years.

Tinfoil hat stuff for sure..... But then again when you've chucked as many spins at this slot as me and dunover have in free play mode, you do start to ask if there's a difference between real and free, especially if you compare that to rolastan and Blathon's history in real. (Just go back to July 2013 and look through the 1000x screenshots thread.)

Still doesn't explain why they couldn't just model that behaviour into free play though, make it a 1 in 200 chance on the bonus round or something, unless it's an oversight, and the code to 'release' the five wilds simply doesn't exist on the freeplay calls to the server.

Fucking hell, time for my own tinfoil hat, unless dunover wants to lend me his

 

[Blathaon]

ok guys dont forget that before i posted DoA real play stats, i did 1000 features in free play. So lines of wilds do appear in free play too.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/dead-or-alive.53838/

while my free play stats are far worse then my real play, that might just be down to the variance. I do find Chopley's and Dunover's stats a bit extreme though.

 

[Balthazar]

So yeah, how about everyone playing for real feeds into a hidden 'progressive' pot, and when there's enough cash in there, randomly release the 'five wilds winline' to a player

When I'm talking about the possibility of "compensated" NetEnt slots, that's exactly what I'm talking about and I don't think that it's limited to DoA. If that formula is true for most of their slots, keeping the "big wins" as low as possible with the newer releases makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, to be honest I've experienced strange slot behaviour* in the base game on JatB, Reel Steal and Starburst.

*By strange behaviour, I mean that it was easily noticeable that the slot wasn't acting "normally".

 

[dunover]

When I'm talking about the possibility of "compensated" NetEnt slots, that's exactly what I'm talking about and I don't think that it's limited to DoA. If that formula is true for most of their slots, keeping the "big wins" as low as possible with the newer releases makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, to be honest I've experienced strange slot behaviour* in the base game on JatB, Reel Steal and Starburst.

*By strange behaviour, I mean that it was easily noticeable that the slot wasn't acting "normally".

So, what's 'normal' on a random slot?

 

[Balthazar]

So, what's 'normal' on a random slot?

If you play a slot long enough, you'll recognize the randomness. That doesn't mean that the spins are predictible and you can't get any surprise, but it's the same slot with the same reels. For example, if you play IR for a fairly long session, you should expect to get a scatter on the first reel more often than one on the 4th reel.

When you play JatB, you should expect to get a walking wild every now and then, and sometimes two and rarely 3 or more. If you play JatB for a long session and never get any walking wild but you get scatters all over the place and you keep getting the free spins, it doesn't feel "normal". If it does this for several hundred spins until you finally get a big win in the free spins, and then immediately goes back to "normal" and starts dropping walking wilds in the base game again....well that feels really fishy and not very random. But since it's "possible", you move on.

Until you repeat the exact same experience a month or two later in Reel Steal, that's when your BS meter starts ringing.

 

[biemme]

If you play a slot long enough, you'll recognize the randomness. That doesn't mean that the spins are predictible and you can't get any surprise, but it's the same slot with the same reels. For example, if you play IR for a fairly long session, you should expect to get a scatter on the first reel more often than one on the 4th reel.

It's the same feeling that i have when i play RTG Caesar's Empire slot, today i've been lucky and I've completed the wagering (25x), I've never seen so many features in a row and the most of them paid more than usual. But i know quite well this slot, i understand when it's going dead because dead spins in a row are not usual for a long time, there are always little wins and sometimes big wins. Today was full of coins and i've logged in in the right moment. Rolastan seems to have the luckyness to find this right moment. From 14$ i've gone to more than 200$ even if max cashout is only 50$ Good way to begin 2014

 

[gagamel]

If you play a slot long enough, you'll recognize the randomness. That doesn't mean that the spins are predictible and you can't get any surprise, but it's the same slot with the same reels. For example, if you play IR for a fairly long session, you should expect to get a scatter on the first reel more often than one on the 4th reel.

When you play JatB, you should expect to get a walking wild every now and then, and sometimes two and rarely 3 or more. If you play JatB for a long session and never get any walking wild but you get scatters all over the place and you keep getting the free spins, it doesn't feel "normal". If it does this for several hundred spins until you finally get a big win in the free spins, and then immediately goes back to "normal" and starts dropping walking wilds in the base game again....well that feels really fishy and not very random. But since it's "possible", you move on.

Until you repeat the exact same experience a month or two later in Reel Steal, that's when your BS meter starts ringing.

I really don`t know what you want to tell us.
ALL Slots are designed to make you lose your money.
I played a lot of different slots last year and the result was the same with every slot. I had some good wins and a lot of dry spells.
The difference was that I had bigger wins in high variance slots and longer dry spells, but at the end I lost 3 to 5% of my money in the long term. Rolastan says that he has a positive outcome with DoA.
In my opinion he is really lucky or he has a very good picture program.
I hope he is just a lucky man.

And for you Balt: 300 or 500 spins in a row is nothing. I played today 1000 spins Playboy and had no free spins in the first 650 spins.
And then 5 times in 350 spins but l lost 40. That`s because of my bad luck and the high variance.
You have to lose more than 3% on slots because if you win one time big (500x for example) you need 1000s of spins to reach your 97%.
Because of that your RTP can be 60& for 700 spins, but with one big hit your RTP is about 110%.
And now it depends on you to say bye or not.
But in a long term you will hit the TRTP

 

[Balthazar]

I really don`t know what you want to tell us.
ALL Slots are designed to make you lose your money.
I played a lot of different slots last year and the result was the same with every slot. I had some good wins and a lot of dry spells.
The difference was that I had bigger wins in high variance slots and longer dry spells, but at the end I lost 3 to 5% of my money in the long term. Rolastan says that he has a positive outcome with DoA.
In my opinion he is really lucky or he has a very good picture program.
I hope he is just a lucky man.

And for you Balt: 300 or 500 spins in a row is nothing. I played today 1000 spins Playboy and had no free spins in the first 650 spins.
And then 5 times in 350 spins but l lost 40. That`s because of my bad luck and the high variance.
You have to lose more than 3% on slots because if you win one time big (500x for example) you need 1000s of spins to reach your 97%.
Because of that your RTP can be 60& for 700 spins, but with one big hit your RTP is about 110%.
And now it depends on you to say bye or not.
But in a long term you will hit the TRTP

I didn't want to go in details because I knew it would attract that kind of reply. FTR I know how randomness and RNG's work. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I've defended slots randomness for well over a year here. NetEnt's slots act funny. I don't say this because I lost, I don't say this because I don't like them, I say it because I observed it and I believe that I can differentiate acts of randomness (and that's include being "streaky") vs. acting fishy.

 

[Finn]

Let's not forget this post:



So the base game could be the exact same in free play and real play, but the very different mathematics could kick in only in real play, thus allowing a line of wilds. For all we know it could act similar to a progressive jackpot.

In Mega Fortune this "bonus game algorithm may be different for play money and real money mode" means that the play money bonus game is much worse than real money bonus game. With play money, you can only hit the 1x-3xbet slices on the outer wheel, you will never get to the middle wheel or the inner wheel. I think they should have disabled just the jackpot slices from the wheel in play money mode, not the whole middle and inner wheel.

 

[zreb]

It's always good to maintain a healthy level of skepticism about whether you're getting a fair game, or no one would ever discover whether they were getting cheated. However, you don't want to be the guy standing on a soapbox yelling how everything is rigged against him either.

Based on Blathaon's data and a few assumptions, it looks like the lack of 1000x+ hits and 5-line wilds in the free-play testing should happen around 1% of the time, but that could be off significantly if my assumptions are. The data so far seems a bit eyebrow-raising, but not really conclusive of anything.

I'd still wager that more likely than not, NetEnt slots are not compensated and function like a random slot should.

And I think the intention of the quote about "very different mathematics" is just saying that they want to make slots with more creative types of bonus rounds than the standard "10 free spins, 3x multiplier" type.

 

[gagamel]

e I knew itI didn't want to go in details becaus would attract that kind of reply. FTR I know how randomness and RNG's work. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I've defended slots randomness for well over a year here. NetEnt's slots act funny. I don't say this because I lost, I don't say this because I don't like them, I say it because I observed it and I believe that I can differentiate acts of randomness (and that's include being "streaky") vs. acting fishy.

Dear Balthazar
you say something is fishy with Netent slots but you don`t want to go into details because it would attract a kind of reply like my reply.
Well, yes, of course, I understand.
Please tell us what is fishy with Netent slots.
Please tell us your doubts.
Please tell us all about your concerns.
Please tell us what you observed.
Please tell us why Netent slots act funny.

Thank you

 

[dunover]

If you play a slot long enough, you'll recognize the randomness. That doesn't mean that the spins are predictible and you can't get any surprise, but it's the same slot with the same reels. For example, if you play IR for a fairly long session, you should expect to get a scatter on the first reel more often than one on the 4th reel.

When you play JatB, you should expect to get a walking wild every now and then, and sometimes two and rarely 3 or more. If you play JatB for a long session and never get any walking wild but you get scatters all over the place and you keep getting the free spins, it doesn't feel "normal". If it does this for several hundred spins until you finally get a big win in the free spins, and then immediately goes back to "normal" and starts dropping walking wilds in the base game again....well that feels really fishy and not very random. But since it's "possible", you move on.

Until you repeat the exact same experience a month or two later in Reel Steal, that's when your BS meter starts ringing.

What you're hinting at there is the slot 'saving' for the subsequent big win it pays you. I said that once and got ridiculed - I suggested all the 4-reel wild desires were won by people who had lost an amount already more than the big win, or nearly as much. Then I blew that theory out of the water by getting my 4-reel shitstorm when I was already 200-ish up on that TSII game at LaVida. Netent however definitely exhibit that behaviour more than MG games do. I've noticed this in freeplay. Every time I open st*rb*rst it seems to take the same approximate time before hitting 2 stars the first time. Every time once it has produced a 50x plus win, it will behave the same afterwards. Wild rockets is another. I have rather gone off Netent as a result.

 

[gagamel]

What you're hinting at there is the slot 'saving' for the subsequent big win it pays you. I said that once and got ridiculed - I suggested all the 4-reel wild desires were won by people who had lost an amount already more than the big win, or nearly as much. Then I blew that theory out of the water by getting my 4-reel shitstorm when I was already 200-ish up on that TSII game at LaVida. Netent however definitely exhibit that behaviour more than MG games do. I've noticed this in freeplay. Every time I open st*rb*rst it seems to take the same approximate time before hitting 2 stars the first time. Every time once it has produced a 50x plus win, it will behave the same afterwards. Wild rockets is another. I have rather gone off Netent as a result.

Is your gameplay the same as in real play? I would say it isn`t. You will walk away from a game after 200 spins without a hit. Sometimes I had the same experience in my first spins with Netent and sometimes it was completly different.
It`s random and sometimes you win in your first spins and sometines your spins look the same as your spins before.
I never won anything with IM and then I won 3 free spin rounds with 3 spins and made a good profit. That`s random.

 

[dizze]

There is some sense in what your are saying, it's entirely possible BUT it's thus far only your theory - can you prove any of this?

there was some scam going on about a roulette software and randseed nonsense

FROM ANONYMOUS
Re: MMM-FART-ScaMMM

I'm a lurker and don't post much. I can't post too much. I probably won't post again, but I will lurk to follow this one through. I followed Cipher around and knew he would be found out.

You may not be aware but just about every online casino does not use their own server's RNG in Fun Mode, Play Mode or whatever they want to call it. They use [your] computer's own RNG. You can test it out at Online Casino by just disconnecting your internet connection and it will still allow you to play. It isn't connected to their server. I know this. I am sure many others know this. You can download Online Casino and test it for yourself, or if you can't because of your location then ask a friend to do it.

The data these people are collecting are not recording the RNG results of Online Casino's server; they are recording the results of a rigged RNG from MMM's program. Think how much turnover will have taken place when the duped place their 7th bet. 48.65% will win, 48.65% will lose. Starting bet of $10 makes accumulated losses at 7th loss of $1270 x $0.4865 x 40%* = $247 profits per player for MMM. How? Decode my message.* And eventually all the first time winners will also lose.

* 1 = A, 6 = F

This one will be bigger than Cipher. Their forum is full of roulette betting system junkies; the perfect clientele for the perfect scaMMM.

Do not PM me back. I won't respond.

posted in 2007,

try disconnecting your internet while playing in free mode

but regarding hacking the doa game, im not sure if its encrypted or not.

 

[dunover]

Hurray!!! Finally got the 5 wilds, 3-scatter trigger, got the 'chevron' with 2 spins left of the 12, top left down to bottom middle up to top right. 1312 x stake!!!!!! This was on the 106-107000 spins session! The 542nd. bonus trigger. I am however, at 90p a spin, down £8776.10p My RTP is at nearly 93%.
The biggest win still remains my 5-scatters + 343x stake paying 2500+343.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So it is achievable then, but only two spins with a wild line maxed out, hence the relatively small 1312x pay.

Overall our stats for this slot are scary though.

 

[biemme]

Ipotizing a compensated pot system for a single slot, i suggest a way to reach the Rolastan's results:
Make a new thread where each Doa player (with the same stake, for ex. 0,45) writes the casino name where he gets the 5 wilds feature with high paid (around 1000€ or more).
The list will be useful to avoid these casinos in the short term (2 weeks for example).
Similar threads can be opened with other stakes too.
What do you think?

 

[naththo]

Your statistic pretty much sums up, rather accurate to me I say.

Its so rare to see over 100x win in one go in one spin or altogether in free spin. So gotta keep in mind on that. Dead or Alive is so high volatile as Reel Steel or Break Da Bank Again. But not as extreme high volatile as the original Lord of the Ring or The Dark Knight with stack wild. Remember years ago we had first stack Lions or stack wild in free game was Aristocrat Lions 50? That was the first one invented. I haven't hit 50 stack of wild or Lions yet so hard to get.

 

[kktmd]

Free play. Bet: 9 x 1.

Disclaimer: I havn't double checked the numbers.

 

[Balthazar]

Thanks kktmd.

Over 1.5M spins is a big enough sample to get very close to the actual numbers IMO.

So it's pretty safe to say that on DOA:

The chances of triggering the bonus: ~ 1/150 spins
The chances of triggering the bonus and getting the additional 5 spins: ~1/7000 spins
The chances of getting a 1000x+ win: ~1/34500 spins

So on average, a player should get one or more full line of wilds OR 5 scatters every 35000 spins or so.

 

[Blathaon]

Free play. Bet: 9 x 1.

Disclaimer: I havn't double checked the numbers.

View attachment 44389

Very nice

so you found a way around the encryption ?

Is it it possible for you to show the interval between the 1000x+ hits?. Or possibly a graph of all the features, assuming you have logged them in sequence?.