Dead or Alive statistics

[dunover]

Continuing from the discussion here, I'll continue in this thread as the other stuff doesn't really belong in Show Me The Money.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/show-me-the-money-screenshots-min-1000xbet.32622/

I am now at 125K spins through DoA, I haven't had five wilds on a winline once, highest single win is 900x stake where I got a load of wilds in free spins (and got the five extra spins) but somehow managed not to get a full line, other than that it's stopped a few times on the 500x stake stop trigger.

I'm on 36p spins and if I were playing for real money I'd have lost over £2000.

I'm not tracking stats on feature frequency but over so many spins it's safe to assume I'll have achieved about the average of one per 150 spins, so that's over 800 FEATURES without seeing a line of wilds.

This slot is a fucking basket case.

I'm now on 10,750 spins, only 44 features, the highest paying 114 x and have had NO 5-spins extra. I have had 4 scatters ONCE and no 5-scatters. The best spin I have had is the 5 sheriffs stars in the combo where it doubles, across the top with the wild in the top centre reel with the sheriffs star underneath to give 2 x 2000 coin winning lines. This is bollocks.

 

[biemme]

I'm not tracking stats on feature frequency but over so many spins it's safe to assume I'll have achieved about the average of one per 150 spins, so that's over 800 FEATURES without seeing a line of wilds.
This slot is a fucking basket case.

I think it's mainly a matter of the amount of deposit players. It's not a roulette where the random is not influenced from the payout (i'm sure of that, i've verified it). After the last little win at Doa i've deposited 50€ at Casinofloor (200%+10x5 free spins), but the casino is not popular and i've seen it from the slot payout, thousands of dead spins, less combos and only features that pay less that 100 coins. Wilds and combos are more frequent if a lot of players are depositing. I think that Come On casino is one of the most popular (they don't offer welcome bonuses to some countries too), but i think that is possible to win something only in that way.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think it's mainly a matter of the amount of deposit players. It's not a roulette where the random is not influenced from the payout (i'm sure of that, i've verified it).

That's a pretty serious allegation!

The results of each spin on an online slot absolutely have to be entirely random and independent and not influenced by any factors such as how much its paid out or how much players are depositing.

How have you 'verified' that this is the case with DoA and/or other slots?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm now on 10,750 spins, only 44 features, the highest paying 114 x and have had NO 5-spins extra. I have had 4 scatters ONCE and no 5-scatters. The best spin I have had is the 5 sheriffs stars in the combo where it doubles, across the top with the wild in the top centre reel with the sheriffs star underneath to give 2 x 2000 coin winning lines. This is bollocks.

Yeah no 5-scatters for me either, quite a few 4 scatters but the pay for that is relatively trivial.

It kind of makes you realise what you're up against when playing a high variance slot, even one with a high RTP such as DoA.

 

[theapple]

I think it's mainly a matter of the amount of deposit players. It's not a roulette where the random is not influenced from the payout (i'm sure of that, i've verified it). After the last little win at Doa i've deposited 50€ at Casinofloor (200%+10x5 free spins), but the casino is not popular and i've seen it from the slot payout, thousands of dead spins, less combos and only features that pay less that 100 coins. Wilds and combos are more frequent if a lot of players are depositing. I think that Come On casino is one of the most popular (they don't offer welcome bonuses to some countries too), but i think that is possible to win something only in that way.

well thats to be expected really. If xx slot has 97% RTP and ur the only one playing, it has to take money back if ur running on +EV for hours. Not saying u might not get lucky and win 182x in a row, but then again if you were the only one playing, and keep on playing that slot all the time, at some point it would have to eat ur money to go back to its normal RTP or else casinos would go broke

unless, of course, slots RTP are calculated for all casinos instead of just one (aka provider based) but thats also unlikely because that could make one casino go broke in no time (smaller casinos mostly)? Of course that would only happen to casino that cant remain liquid after a big win, but in that case they shouldnt start casino business at the first place.

if they were provider based, imagine doa having a 12.000% RTP on Pikachus Casino over the short term, in that case Chocobo Casino could easily have a -1190% RTP for a few days And even then, that unlucky Pikachus casino would still make money on that same slot. Just not right away, but RTP is there to make sure they actually make money, instead of losing it :=D

That's a pretty serious allegation!

The results of each spin on an online slot absolutely have to be entirely random and independent and not influenced by any factors such as how much its paid out or how much players are depositing.

How have you 'verified' that this is the case with DoA and/or other slots?

no its not, we all know ALL slots have base %RTP (return to player). So for every 100 spent on any casino game, long term expected return is 97. Now , that obviously doesnt work for $100 but over a course of few millions, it does. If all slots had 'entirely random' (and theres no such a thing in programming btw ) factor, any slot could go lose and make casinos go broke in no time and RTP is there to make sure casinos, over the long term, are able to make profit.

edit: of course you still can hit big 10 times in a row, but if you were to play there over the course of days, on that same slot, and make billion spins, you would still have negative EV because of the house edge

 

[maphesto]

I think it's mainly a matter of the amount of deposit players. It's not a roulette where the random is not influenced from the payout (i'm sure of that, i've verified it). After the last little win at Doa i've deposited 50€ at Casinofloor (200%+10x5 free spins), but the casino is not popular and i've seen it from the slot payout, thousands of dead spins, less combos and only features that pay less that 100 coins. Wilds and combos are more frequent if a lot of players are depositing. I think that Come On casino is one of the most popular (they don't offer welcome bonuses to some countries too), but i think that is possible to win something only in that way.

Very interesting about Casinofloor. They are using the Oddsmatrix/Everymatrix platform which makes them share gameserver with many other casinos. You didn't think of that when you used Casinofloor and Come On as examples, did you?

CasinoFloor.com is operated and managed by OddsMatrix Ltd, a company bearing registration number C44411, and having its registered address at Suite 4, Num. 62/63 Morina Court, George Borg Olivier Street, St.Julians, STJ 1081, Malta. OddsMatrix Ltd. is licensed and regulated in virtue of a Class 1 license numbered LGA/CL1/497/2010 and Class 2 license numbered LGA/CL2/497/2008 issued by the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta

The Casino games, Quickfire, are provided by EveryMatrix N.V. a limited liability company incorporated under the laws of Curacao, bearing company registration number 108354 and having its registered address at Dr. Hugenholtzweg Z/N, Curacao and is licensed and regulated in virtue of license number No. 8048/JAZ granted by the Government of Curacao.

 

[biemme]

How have you 'verified' that this is the case with DoA and/or other slots?

The logic behind the slots is declared from casino too (the most honest).
In Italy for example the real slots (not online) have a declared payout of around 75% (i don't remember exactly the % but is around 70-80%) and the % is fixed and regulated from a government agency. When you play of course every depositor plays and wins randomly, but it is a random under the payout system. It means that if there are 100 depositors that together have deposited 1000€ randomly players will never win more than the fixed %. So more depositors, more money. For roulette is different, roulette is not a slot.
You can verify it if you play to new realesed slots, usually they are empty and must be filled with deposits

Very interesting about Casinofloor. They are using the Oddsmatrix/Everymatrix platform which makes them share gameserver with many other casinos. You didn't think of that when you used Casinofloor and Come On as examples, did you?

I've been attracted from the higher bonus (usually i've found only 100% and a lot of netent casinos are restricted to italian players).
I've supposed that north-european players could be less but with higher deposits (like heypoker). Didn't know about gameserver sharing. Come On casino seems very popular from their bonus policy, so i've supposed that a lot of players deposit there (if they don't need to attract them with bonuses, maybe winnings are enough).

 

[maphesto]

The logic behind the slots is declared from casino too (the most honest).

Can you please show me this info?

Even if your theory is true (I am not comment on this), why should casinos tell players that their slots are not random?

 

[biemme]

Can you please show me this info?

Even if your theory is true (I am not comment on this), why should casinos tell players that their slots are not random?

Old / Expired Link

They tells the payout only not the logic beyond the slots (but it's easily clear to deduce it). I've read many threads too about this argument. I'm sure of that. Slot softwares are random, under the payout limit and payout depend from % of all players deposit amount (fixed from the casino).
Only roulette softwares (and maybe other table games, not blackjack) have a different rule because the game is "still" unbeatable and it doesn't need the payout system logic.

 

[zreb]

Old / Expired Link

They tells the payout only not the logic beyond the slots (but it's easily clear to deduce it). I've read many threads too about this argument. I'm sure of that. Slot softwares are random, under the payout limit and payout depend from % of all players deposit amount (fixed from the casino).
Only roulette softwares (and maybe other table games, not blackjack) have a different rule because the game is "still" unbeatable and it doesn't need the payout system logic.

If what you said were true, it would not be easy to deduce it at all. Playing a few hundred spins on a new slot and losing, even doing this a few different times, is not nearly adequate statistical evidence to arrive at your conclusion that slots work that way.

If a slot is truly random, it has no memory of past events, and will not be influenced by them. It may be true that there is no absolutely random "rng," but for our purposes here they are good enough. Perhaps the reason you think slots must work the way you say is because you don't know how they would otherwise reach their RTP. There is nothing in place to force a slot to payout at its true RTP, however, after a large enough number of spins, it simply becomes overwhelmingly probable. Imagine if you flip a coin a thousand times. You might end up with something like 505 heads, 495 tails - pretty close to 50%. A random slot works the same way. You don't need to "force" a random slot to its true RTP, as I said, it's just overwhelmingly probable that it will happen on its own, eventually.

(If you want the math, start here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, and then move onto information about the normal distribution and standard deviations. If you want something simpler, perhaps try looking here

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.)

And it actually is possible for a slot to deviate from the mathematically expected RTP, a lot of casinos will have hot/cold sections for recent slot results, but it's fairly rare for a slot to deviate more than 2% from it's RTP over the course of, say, a month. The one exception to this is if you have a high roller betting big on a high variance slot, occasionally a casino can get hit hard, sending the average player return well over 100% and possibly making a dent in the casino's overall financial situation. This is one reason why casinos set max betting limits.

If you want to show that NetEnt or other slots are not truly random, it will take a lot more evidence than saying "it is easy to deduce," because it is not - you need a lot of numerical evidence to back it up.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Another 12000 spins so I'm now at 137,000 spins without seeing a line of wilds in free spins, or five scatters.

It did manage a pay of close to 1000x stake off a free spins round that had eight wilds on it, but still no actual winline of wilds!

Still on 36p spins, and I've 'lost' another £600 as it really has been on a dreadful run, so if I were playing for real I'd now be £2600 down, and I haven't hit a single win of over 1000x stake.

This slot is a dreadful beast of a thing and if nothing else I've vowed to never ever play the bastard thing for real money ever again - I mean, at the moment it's looking entirely possible that I'll get to one thousand features without seeing a line of wilds.....

I'll resume again later, but for now I want to do something a bit more entertaining, like self-circumcision with a rusty Bic razor.

 

[dionysus]

The logic behind the slots is declared from casino too (the most honest).
In Italy for example the real slots (not online) have a declared payout of around 75% (i don't remember exactly the % but is around 70-80%) and the % is fixed and regulated from a government agency. When you play of course every depositor plays and wins randomly, but it is a random under the payout system. It means that if there are 100 depositors that together have deposited 1000€ randomly players will never win more than the fixed %. So more depositors, more money. For roulette is different, roulette is not a slot.
You can verify it if you play to new realesed slots, usually they are empty and must be filled with deposits


I've been attracted from the higher bonus (usually i've found only 100% and a lot of netent casinos are restricted to italian players).
I've supposed that north-european players could be less but with higher deposits (like heypoker). Didn't know about gameserver sharing. Come On casino seems very popular from their bonus policy, so i've supposed that a lot of players deposit there (if they don't need to attract them with bonuses, maybe winnings are enough).

you do know the rtp is theoretical, not a number guaranteed or allocated to any one individual person though right?
It's a theoretical number because while one player may have say, an rtp of 150%, several others could be looking at something as low as 35%. It's over long spans, you should hit 'around' the trtp - not that you ever in your lifetime will have the game's rtp.
The slot doesn't look at your bankroll, your personal session, or the player before you. The software, over hundreds of millions of spins, spits out the trtp, to whom, how and when, doesn't matter. The nature of randomness means each spin works irrespective of the previous. It doesn't recall who got what to achieve the rtp.

 

[lotusch]

Another 12000 spins so I'm now at 137,000 spins without seeing a line of wilds in free spins, or five scatters.

It did manage a pay of close to 1000x stake off a free spins round that had eight wilds on it, but still no actual winline of wilds!

Still on 36p spins, and I've 'lost' another £600 as it really has been on a dreadful run, so if I were playing for real I'd now be £2600 down, and I haven't hit a single win of over 1000x stake.

This slot is a dreadful beast of a thing and if nothing else I've vowed to never ever play the bastard thing for real money ever again - I mean, at the moment it's looking entirely possible that I'll get to one thousand features without seeing a line of wilds.....

I'll resume again later, but for now I want to do something a bit more entertaining, like self-circumcision with a rusty Bic razor.

So that means a player like Rolastan posting a 5 wild line win on DOA nearly every so many weeks is either posting fake screens or he has DOA running on 50 casino's simultanously and has probably the bankroll to do so..
Like I said it is nearly impossible to hit 1 of those 5 wilds on 1 line pays so if someone post like 50 of them in the space of let's say half a year?


I wonder why someone from Netent can not come on this forum and clear this for once and for all.

For me this slot is boring,dreadful and I have lost a good bit of money on it in the last year.
It is one of the slots that probably will go on my personal black list like most Netent slots.

They are just awefull.

I am 100% up on WMS and MGS this year overall and if I would not have played those crappy Netent slots I would have had a great year with a positive balance but all my wins from other slot brands went into the black hole called Netent.

 

[De Beuker]

Another 12000 spins so I'm now at 137,000 spins without seeing a line of wilds in free spins, or five scatters.

It did manage a pay of close to 1000x stake off a free spins round that had eight wilds on it, but still no actual winline of wilds!

Still on 36p spins, and I've 'lost' another £600 as it really has been on a dreadful run, so if I were playing for real I'd now be £2600 down, and I haven't hit a single win of over 1000x stake.

This slot is a dreadful beast of a thing and if nothing else I've vowed to never ever play the bastard thing for real money ever again - I mean, at the moment it's looking entirely possible that I'll get to one thousand features without seeing a line of wilds.....

I'll resume again later, but for now I want to do something a bit more entertaining, like self-circumcision with a rusty Bic razor.

That was my experience too on this game.
I've lost around 4K on this slot on low stakes (never over 0.45 per spin) before I finally hit a big payout.
Had a few +1000x stake wins on it too, never seen 5 scatters, and 4 maybe 10-15 times, 4 times on reel 1, 2, 3, 4.
I'm glad it paid me back some last month (5100x bet, almost 2K) and I'll give it a few hundred spins now and then, only when I'm playing with a bonus, but full lines of wilds are rare as hell.

Which is not at all surprising, because the game can give shitloads of playtime, I've had numerous sessions where I could play for ages on a small deposit, 6 hours on a 50.- deposit happened quite often.
During those sessions my RTP was close to the advertised 97% without hitting anything big.

So how on earth is it possible that someone keeps hitting those 5 wilds on a payline just about every week for 4 years now? Thats beyond me really.
Luck never lasts forever, and it really makes me question the randomness of it.

DOA is a nice game with high potential, but never chase the big one, if your first 3 freespinrounds are crap,leave and play something else.
Everytime I've hit something good on it it came within my first 3 freespinrounds, or not at all.

 

[Blathaon]

Continuing from the discussion here, I'll continue in this thread as the other stuff doesn't really belong in Show Me The Money.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/show-me-the-money-screenshots-min-1000xbet.32622/

I am now at 125K spins through DoA, I haven't had five wilds on a winline once, highest single win is 900x stake where I got a load of wilds in free spins (and got the five extra spins) but somehow managed not to get a full line, other than that it's stopped a few times on the 500x stake stop trigger.

I'm on 36p spins and if I were playing for real money I'd have lost over £2000.

I'm not tracking stats on feature frequency but over so many spins it's safe to assume I'll have achieved about the average of one per 150 spins, so that's over 800 FEATURES without seeing a line of wilds.

This slot is a fucking basket case.

This surprises me a bit, i have gone over 300 features without the wilds lining up or 5 scatters before, but 300 features is "only" about 45000 spins(assuming that the feature average is indeed every 150 spins). So you having done almost three times that amount is extreme.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This surprises me a bit, i have gone over 300 features without the wilds lining up or 5 scatters before, but 300 features is "only" about 45000 spins(assuming that the feature average is indeed every 150 spins). So you having done almost three times that amount is extreme.

The thing is Blathaon, that's 137,000 spins since I started counting, I've played a fair amount of DoA prior to this in both real and free, and I've never seen five scatters or the line of wilds in free spins.

I suppose it's conceivable it doesn't run the same in free play as real play, but why on earth would any company want to make their slot appear to be worse than it actually is to someone trying it in free play?

We all know DoA is extremely high variance, which I think is what explains it, but it does go to show what it's capable of when on a very bad run, to be £2600 down on 36p spins without seeing a single win over 1000x stake is absolutely abominable!

 

[De Beuker]

This surprises me a bit, i have gone over 300 features without the wilds lining up or 5 scatters before, but 300 features is "only" about 45000 spins(assuming that the feature average is indeed every 150 spins). So you having done almost three times that amount is extreme.

Why does this surprise you?
Its just normal, he could hit 5000x bet on his next freespinround and 5 scatters 2 hours after that and be in profit again!
And the casino has to take its 3% over every spin played, right?
It would not surprise me at all if he needs another 1000 freespinrounds to hit a big one.

Your 10K in profit on the game (and I'm really happy for ya, believe me), but someone has to pay for that..

 

[mrmark21]

Can you please show me this info?

Even if your theory is true (I am not comment on this), why should casinos tell players that their slots are not random?

Well they would be lying to customers, that's deceptive advertising, feeding customers misleading information, and customers would be depositing under the false pretense that the games are random when that's not truly the case.

When customers deposit at an online casino they are paying for a service and also to play the casino's games.

Now if online casinos didn't make any statements regarding the randomness on their games that would be a totally different story...

I'm not going to make any comments in regards to what Biemme has posted as I believe the games are random I'm just simply stating the reason that online casinos need to tell players if their games are not random.

 

[Blathaon]

The thing is Blathaon, that's 137,000 spins since I started counting, I've played a fair amount of DoA prior to this in both real and free, and I've never seen five scatters or the line of wilds in free spins.

I suppose it's conceivable it doesn't run the same in free play as real play, but why on earth would any company want to make their slot appear to be worse than it actually is to someone trying it in free play?

We all know DoA is extremely high variance, which I think is what explains it, but it does go to show what it's capable of when on a very bad run, to be £2600 down on 36p spins without seeing a single win over 1000x stake is absolutely abominable!

Well yes i guess it might not be the same in free play as in real play, if that is the case then it must be some mistake or they have updated the real version and not the free play one or vice versa.

Unfortunately unless NetEnt is willing to tell us what the true odds of hitting 5 wilds on a line or 5 scatters is, then all we have is my real play data, and your dreadful free play data.

The forum upload is still not working, so i can't use that one. But i guess i can post my stats anyway, and just update it when it's fixed.

Dead or Alive: 3441 features
On average the feature hits every 150 spins, so this sample represents 516150 spins

5 extra spins: 80 times

5 wilds on a line: 20 times

5 scatters: 3 times

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Wins over 1000xBet (all bet and win amounts are in NOK, 8.45NOK= 1€)
Old Attachment (Invalid)

Since the forum upload isn't working, here is the spreadsheet.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(if links like this is not allowed then please remove it)

 

[Blathaon]

Why does this surprise you?
Its just normal, he could hit 5000x bet on his next freespinround and 5 scatters 2 hours after that and be in profit again!
And the casino has to take its 3% over every spin played, right?
It would not surprise me at all if he needs another 1000 freespinrounds to hit a big one.

Your 10K in profit on the game (and I'm really happy for ya, believe me), but someone has to pay for that..

It surprises me that the variance is that extreme, i would think that having played 3441 real play features i would have gotten some indication of the bad and good runs.

Of course i know my results are better than the true odds as i am in profit, but almost three times the length of my worst run?. So yes that surprises me.

 

[De Beuker]

It surprises me that the variance is that extreme, i would think that having played 3441 real play features i would have gotten some indication of the bad and good runs.

Of course i know my results are better than the true odds as i am in profit, but almost three times the length of my worst run?. So yes that surprises me.

Obviously the variance IS that extreme, or you would never be in profit over more than half a million spins on a 97% RTP game.
Can you somehow indicate what your personal RTP on this game is?
10K profit on relative low stakes, is has to be pretty impressive I guess.

Btw, thanks alot for taking the time to keep and post those stats, higly appreciated!
Same goes for you Chopley!
Now we really get an idea of how extreme this game really is..

 

[gagamel]

The thing is Blathaon, that's 137,000 spins since I started counting, I've played a fair amount of DoA prior to this in both real and free, and I've never seen five scatters or the line of wilds in free spins.

I suppose it's conceivable it doesn't run the same in free play as real play, but why on earth would any company want to make their slot appear to be worse than it actually is to someone trying it in free play?

We all know DoA is extremely high variance, which I think is what explains it, but it does go to show what it's capable of when on a very bad run, to be £2600 down on 36p spins without seeing a single win over 1000x stake is absolutely abominable!

That would be absolutely wrong. Fun play and real play has to be the same.
For me, it is the same. I had one hit in fun game mode as I tried the game the first time. Had 13 wilds and won 11000x my bet. Went to real play and started well, best hit was 777x. In my first 15000 spins RTP was 130%, now I have a 100% RTP after 150000 spins.
In fun play I never hit anything after my monster hit. I played about 200000 spins (all 4.50 because I won at this stake), but no big hit.

In summary I didn`t hit anything better than 150x my bet in the last 30000 spins/ real play and 50000 spins/ fun play

 

[aceking123]

i still play it ive yet to see the 5 wilds on a single line , ive had 5 wilds twice , ive also done some hefty spins , but then again ive also had two sets of 5 scatters , am i in profit nope no where near ,but i do like the game i dropped in 20 quid at guts yesturday & played for just over one hour

although i didnt win that was a good session for a netent slot low cost realy couldnt complain ,yes its kinda boring but you just never know when you may hit that monster on it

i dont play like most people either i tend to keep changing my stakes in every session , maybe one day i will hit on 4.50 a spin thats why i keep playing it )

 

[biemme]

What you call random is a math algorithm, it's not the same of a real life test (where thousands variables can influence the results).
A casino software is designed to produce incomes. The software is designed with an alghoritm that produce what you call "random" but it's under parameters that are surely linked to the amount deposited from players, not from a single player (if not the casino risks to bankrupt).
The software manages the payout results checking all player deposits, not checking the single one player to make him loose. It gives the illusion of casuality.
Of course player winnings are under the algorithm that gives the idea to be fortuitous, but at the end it's not like a real life random test.
Roulette softwares are different because the game generates incomes by itself (with the zero house hedge) and the software alghoritm (with its middle-long term cyclic nature) is beatable even if 0.0001 players (or less) can do it, the rest of players loose and it's enough for the casino accountig dep. In fact bonuses are very rare on roulette softwares.
Try to win 1000€ at Casino Floor if you can

 

[Blathaon]

Obviously the variance IS that extreme, or you would never be in profit over more than half a million spins on a 97% RTP game.
Can you somehow indicate what your personal RTP on this game is?
10K profit on relative low stakes, is has to be pretty impressive I guess.

Btw, thanks alot for taking the time to keep and post those stats, higly appreciated!
Same goes for you Chopley!
Now we really get an idea of how extreme this game really is..

Thanks,

No sorry, i don't think you can work it out from the spreadsheet either, as i have played several different bet sizes and the spreadsheet is only for the features and not the regular spins.