Is RTP absolute bull?

[WiremuH]

first of all, i'm not saying whether or not i think any casino or software is fair or not. What i have noticed is that whenever someone posts anything about a casino not being on the up and up or questions their experience in a particular session, etc... they are always told to prove it.

So my question is... let's say that any one of us did hypothetically have a good reason to question a casino or software and everyone starts yelling at him / her to "prove it or shut up." How in the world would he / she prove it? Seriously.

1. Should he/she just wait for someone at the casino to accidently send him a bunch of logs and data that incriminate the casino like in the poker site case?

2. Should he/she go ahead and continue to play until a gazillion bajillion spins of data can be shown to satisfy those that always say "well it's such a small sample...it takes millions of spins...etc."

3. Should he/she contact the governing body that oversees these online casinos to look into the matter?

4. Should he/she contact the software developer, like rtg as an example, since they would never allow their software to be used in an unethical way?

5. Should he/she just go on forums to plead their case and pray that not everyone just tells them to "prove it or shut up?"

The reason i am asking this question is that i was wondering what would have happened in the poker site case if the player did not get those logs accidently sent to him. Would that player have been treated just as another "sore loser" too?

In other words... how could anyone EVER prove anything if all we do is make excuses for casinos? Seriously.. a video poker game has an unfair gamble feaure (software update malfunction?), missing wilds on a slot machine (software glitch, but game pays correctly?"), dynamic weighting on video slots?, etc... When is it called CHEATING?

I've always stated that i think the good online casinos use somewhat random software, but not in the way we all think random should be. It is entertainment only so i sometimes play with that in mind.

Online casinos have very little overhead compared to B & M so shouldn't it be REALLY evident in the slot paybacks? I mean, i would think online slots should play MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than B & M slots... but do they?

Guess what i am wondering is, when do we start asking for casinos to PROVE TO US THAT THEY ARE FAIR?

Not really a rant or anything... just curious as to what other people think they would do if they suspected a casino of having unfair games. (ps... anyone thinking of saying "well, just don't play there!" would be missing the point.)

I've played online casinos now for a very long time. And now all I see is the cheating. Rtp is bullshit and they story they tell ya is even bigger bullshit. Not even logical. In a session you deposit 20, you lose 20. But data shows you won 400 during that session but by the end of the session you net loss is 420. Therefore it shows a return of 400 to player. And then they go on to say that the RTP is really shown over 100s of thousands of spins even millions. My logic is Deposit 20 and lost 20. 100% loss To me.
RGN, random generated numbers. Bullshit....
I've spun 1000 and 1000s same game and the pattern becomes clear, the glitches and errors are predictable now.
1 game ive played. Glitches at the excact same point, just keeps spinning instead of dropping the 3rd scatter symbol to trigger the games. Until error shows up and kicks you to lobby.
it refuses to give the free game feature after the extra bonus feature had reached the maximum level. Giving you more games with higher multiplier if feature was triggered. I reported it. Told the Normal script bullshit lige chat talks. Clear cookies etc. I screen recorded it. It was eventually escalated but they said they can not see anything wrong. I sent them screen recordings of this same glitch happening on the same game, same point but on 3 different casino sites. 3 different devices and 3 different internet connections, 3 different locations.
They still say they couldn't see anything wrong and the game round payed what it should have.
You star to notice the same patterns within all the games. No matter the casino or game or game provider.
Theres nothing random especially when you see repetitive shit consistently happening.
But who do you show the jours of screen recordings showing that the games or casino or provider are cheating and what they say about fair regulated games is a lie, a scam. It's theft really.
I'm happy to loose money gambling. It's what happens but the way we are loosing is criminal and there needs to be something done about it

How is this possible

 

[dunover]

I've played online casinos now for a very long time. And now all I see is the cheating. Rtp is bullshit and they story they tell ya is even bigger bullshit. Not even logical. In a session you deposit 20, you lose 20. But data shows you won 400 during that session but by the end of the session you net loss is 420. Therefore it shows a return of 400 to player. And then they go on to say that the RTP is really shown over 100s of thousands of spins even millions. My logic is Deposit 20 and lost 20. 100% loss To me.
RGN, random generated numbers. Bullshit....
I've spun 1000 and 1000s same game and the pattern becomes clear, the glitches and errors are predictable now.
1 game ive played. Glitches at the excact same point, just keeps spinning instead of dropping the 3rd scatter symbol to trigger the games. Until error shows up and kicks you to lobby.
it refuses to give the free game feature after the extra bonus feature had reached the maximum level. Giving you more games with higher multiplier if feature was triggered. I reported it. Told the Normal script bullshit lige chat talks. Clear cookies etc. I screen recorded it. It was eventually escalated but they said they can not see anything wrong. I sent them screen recordings of this same glitch happening on the same game, same point but on 3 different casino sites. 3 different devices and 3 different internet connections, 3 different locations.
They still say they couldn't see anything wrong and the game round payed what it should have.
You star to notice the same patterns within all the games. No matter the casino or game or game provider.
Theres nothing random especially when you see repetitive shit consistently happening.
But who do you show the jours of screen recordings showing that the games or casino or provider are cheating and what they say about fair regulated games is a lie, a scam. It's theft really.
I'm happy to loose money gambling. It's what happens but the way we are loosing is criminal and there needs to be something done about it

How is this possible

OK, you necromanced an old thread over a decade old, so have started a new one just for you!

The first thing you need to understand is that even if a slot game is 99.99% RTP you will lose your whole bankroll eventually if you keep recycling wins. Just far slower than on 96%.

It's a long-term figure but imagine you start with $100 and bet $1 a spin, on average the house takes 4c every spin, so the more spins you take the more 4c amounts you lose until eventually you bust.

Of course that doesn't take into account variance which in the short term and the duration of one session can swing wildly, you could get 50% for the session or hit a big win early and get 1500%.

RTP is not a direct relation of net financial loss for playing slots games etc.

If you play $1 spins and start with $100 on a 96% slot, you should get about 2400 spins before you bust, at which point your RTP would be 96% but of course the financial loss is 100% of the amount you began with.

As for game graphics, the reels are generally just visual eye candy to represent a RNG result which is returned in a split second after you press start, the game knows you've won 0.5x bet, 8x bet or 0x and then represents it on the game. A long spin shouldn't make any difference on a predetermined RNG pull, more than likely a glitch that occurs in the graphics on certain results like a scatter tease.

 

[philderby]

Chopley has recently gone into depth around RTP% expected returns etc. Its a good watch. Put the kettle on, go to Asda for some choccy biccies and enjoy the video.

 

[Mouse75]

Choccy Biccies?

And give the 17.%% VAT to the government, - no that's robbery and just shows that the return to payer for biscuits is just as bent and don't get me started on the jaffa cakes!

They really do take the biscuit, well cake - asl HMRC!!

 

[09237653]

videoslots have an rtp tracking feature which is broken as hell now but back when it used to work properly tracking my own play and numbering in 10s of 1000s of spins on various BTG games the RTPs were close to expected which is impressive as they are generally calculated over billions of spins by the providers.

 

[Jono777]

Sometimes.

You lose, bullshit rigged.

You win, best game/casino on the planet

Whilst we're talking biscuits too, RIP Nestle Breakaway, one of my lifetime faves, gone, sob

 

[Deanna]

"As for game graphics, the reels are generally just visual eye candy to represent a RNG result which is returned in a split second after you press start, the game knows you've won 0.5x bet, 8x bet or 0x and then represents it on the game. A long spin shouldn't make any difference on a predetermined RNG pull, more than likely a glitch that occurs in the graphics on certain results like a scatter tease."

So Dunover, I've always wondered something about this. And the reason why is quite a few years back when I won the 20+k Jackpot on Naughty or Nice, I was in the middle of jumping out of the game in the middle of the feature. I went ahead and let it do one more spin which turned out to be the winning spin. I've always wondered had I logged out at the beginning of the feature, when I returned to the game the following day, would I have still won the Jackpot? Or would someone else have possibly won it overnight? Am I making sense? Sometimes I do log out after hitting a feature, for whatever reason (sometimes for that superstitious reason). I might want to complete it on my phone while outside smoking or some other dumb reason. So maybe you can finally answer it for me!

 

[philderby]

I dont have any biccies in anymore because i cant trust myself not to finish them off. My go to would have to be Tunnucks caramel wafer. Can you call them a biscuit? IDK

 

[dunover]

I dont have any biccies in anymore because i cant trust myself not to finish them off. My go to would have to be Tunnucks caramel wafer. Can you call them a biscuit? IDK

Tunnock's Caramel Wafers an 8-pack every fortnight in this house, plus a 6-pack of Tunnock's Tea Cakes.

 

[dunover]

"As for game graphics, the reels are generally just visual eye candy to represent a RNG result which is returned in a split second after you press start, the game knows you've won 0.5x bet, 8x bet or 0x and then represents it on the game. A long spin shouldn't make any difference on a predetermined RNG pull, more than likely a glitch that occurs in the graphics on certain results like a scatter tease."

So Dunover, I've always wondered something about this. And the reason why is quite a few years back when I won the 20+k Jackpot on Naughty or Nice, I was in the middle of jumping out of the game in the middle of the feature. I went ahead and let it do one more spin which turned out to be the winning spin. I've always wondered had I logged out at the beginning of the feature, when I returned to the game the following day, would I have still won the Jackpot? Or would someone else have possibly won it overnight? Am I making sense? Sometimes I do log out after hitting a feature, for whatever reason (sometimes for that superstitious reason). I might want to complete it on my phone while outside smoking or some other dumb reason. So maybe you can finally answer it for me!

As soon as you paid and initiated that spin, the pull on the RNG results pool would have occurred and the result logged instantly. All you did was abandon the graphics, so if you had logged out or closed the game the result would have been apparent next time you opened it, or you would have seen it in your balance if you didn't open the game, although saying that many software brands will replay your round either in total or from the moment it was cut off. So your result was always going to be that one.

*Some games though may actually produce random results within the feature, from a separate part of the RTP pool on slots where the feature total outcome is not predetermined. If that was the case with your particular slot, I suppose it would be possible for that spin within the feature to have picked a different result had it not occurred right then and was delayed.

As I have no specific knowledge of how your slot operates or is designed, I cannot be sure - I would say generally the first paragraph would be most likely, the latter one possible!

 

[Deanna]

As soon as you paid and initiated that spin, the pull on the RNG results pool would have occurred and the result logged instantly. All you did was abandon the graphics, so if you had logged out or closed the game the result would have been apparent next time you opened it, or you would have seen it in your balance if you didn't open the game, although saying that many software brands will replay your round either in total or from the moment it was cut off. So your result was always going to be that one.

*Some games though may actually produce random results within the feature, from a separate part of the RTP pool on slots where the feature total outcome is not predetermined. If that was the case with your particular slot, I suppose it would be possible for that spin within the feature to have picked a different result had it not occurred right then and was delayed.

As I have no specific knowledge of how your slot operates or is designed, I cannot be sure - I would say generally the first paragraph would be most likely, the latter one possible!

Thank you for answering! I had often wondered if I'd logged out and had no clue I won whether the jackpot would have instantly changed for everyone else so when I logged in at a later time it would still be all MINE! I think this was possibly at Clubworld back in the day, or maybe Uptown Aces, I can't remember. At the time I thought omg, what if I hadn't waited on that spin, would someone else have won it overnight? I mean, over 20k on a .50 spin was pretty darn exciting! The dumbest part of the whole thing is I'd been playing the game most of the day on and off, even when I was using bonus money which had max cashouts. ACK. So stupid, I've never done that on any game again, but I didn't really believe I could win the actual Jackpot. I just liked that game at the time! Now I've won it 3 times, once for over 12k on a .50 spin. I'm a believer!

 

[Milaroy]

RTP might make sense on paper, but for real players, session-to-session, it often feels meaningless. Sadly, unless regulators or media take an interest, it's hard to hold anyone accountable.