hmmmmmmm. It seems that is not really the case at all, now is it?
I have a friend in the states you are saying? I don't follow your friend comment I'm afraid.
If these posters are true and they really bet like they claim then there was certainly no "mathematically calculated group effort" to do any such thing. The last poster also appears to have been playing quite a lot after there were no wagering requirements remaining, even losing a few cashouts due to this habit. Yet they were not breaking rules then? That is not how fraudsters come in and do their business. They were gambling obviously and not well either it appears. Just lucky and not at the same time.
IF they presented the facts correctly. IF. If they are completely innocent, they can file a resolution with a reputable mediation channel like CM or Hastings, and these channels will ensure fair dealings.
Regarding the friend comment, my apologies, I think I confused you with another poster on this thread (it is getting a bit long and hard to follow sometimes, sorry
)
Apparently these Pennsylvania people have a number of friends posting for them.
Now the real issue is that most of what you are claiming does not add up. You are claiming that they were getting delays in payments because they had broken so many rules. However, you did pay them sporadically in partial payments over months and months time? Even 2 days prior to confiscating their winnings? You also did claim that cabrair32 broke a term in bet size only to have him display his play history to prove otherwise? Twice you attempted this? You understand that you don't hold a players funds for half of a year only to discover some rule was broken after the fact I'm sure. It would appear that you were seeking any way out of paying that you could imagine.
Using cases of fraud to demonstrate slow payment of regular players may not be the best gauge. We did have a legit player with a delay. We are very sorry about his. However, if you are going to break the rules, you can expect delays. We also committed a bad mistake in not identifying this issue earlier. But this is hardly something to hold against us as a player, rather something we hold against ourselves.
None of this should give anybody confidence in your casino. Your responses are off topic also. The issues of the delay in payments is getting twisted.
To that point I have an acquaintance that I have been trying to get to join this forum. It is a great forum for starters and this thread in particular interests her. She has had a pending cashout at your casino since February and is not at all comfortable in the fact that she will ever receive her payment.
The situation of your friend is going to be simple. Either she didn't break the rules, and in which case will get paid, or she did break them, in which case she didn't. If she wants me to look into her account I will be glad to (you can even PM me her username). If she wants to PAB, or contact other mediators, I will be glad to cooperate.
ksech,
I understand what you are saying. However, this particular rep is trying to get players confidence up for his casino. He is using this forum as a way to draw interest and/or confidence so that we play there. I don't think he is doing this as a selfless service for players.
Of course this is not selfless. I never said I'm the Holy Saint of Gamblers. I get paid for doing my job. I make my living off of this industry. I eat, pay my rent, help my family and girlfriend, feed my dog, and pay my bills thanks to the industry.
However, that same vested interest in the industry makes it so that I want this industry to be the best it can be. To me it is all quite simple:
Happy players = high retention of players = high profitability = better ability to serve players = happier players = happier affiliates = a bigger industry.
Angry players = low retention of players = low profitability = lower ability to serve players = even angrier players = angry affiliates = an industry that isn't all it could be.
I don't get paid extra if the company I'm in does good or bad one month. But I will grow professionally if the company I'm at does things right LONG TERM. I will do even better if the industry I'm in does better long term. This is what I care about.
I think he is attempting damage control at the players who are railing against his casino's bad operation and treatment of players.
We have made mistakes that have affected honest players. But every business makes mistakes. It is how many they make, what % of customers are affected, and how the mistakes are handled. When we mess up, I hardly cover it up. I have an honesty policy, and if I truly believe we did wrong, I will say so. However if we are being wronged, I will also say so.
I also see a lot of things that he is saying that do not add up. If he wants to come here and type things that are not logical then he should be called out for it and explain.
100% agreed. What did I type that was not logical?
He should not get a free pass to use propaganda to give his casino a good name.
It is apparent, at least to me, that this casino is rogue and behaves poorly. Smooth talk shouldn't be allowed to cover up those issues and nobody on this board should be past cross examination.
Especially when so many things point to a big problem with the casino. I sure am glad that I found this thread before I ever considered playing there. Many probably feel the same way.
You speak as if I can be in-coherent without getting called out on it. This is simply not true. Maybe your opinion/statements on this matter are influenced by your friend who was found to be breaking the rules?
As I said, anything that is non-logical in my posts, as you put it, can easily be pointed out by anyone, including you. And the times I have made mistakes, I've found they get pointed out quite quickly.
This is beginning to sound very like the 'spirit of the bonus' argument AKA the invoking of the FU clause.
If these players have broken multiple rules as you state then why not just show Bryan and Max and all this can get easily cleared up?
I will as soon as the PAB's come in. Privacy is something I respect.
I'd actually love to show them the info, as I'm sure it might help them with the other PABs from this same group of players. However, I feel that may be the reason they aren't doing a PAB.
Or just specify which part of the terms and conditions they have breached?
Obviously you don't want to reveal the nuts and bolts of it in public I understand that. But it is you who has made the accusation in public so it does need to be addressed.
Specific T&Cs have been breached. There are a number of players involved in this syndicate. Each broke specific rules, which I would be glad to share with the mediation channel these players choose to pursue.
So what - they are good at maths and determined to win. As you say, "this is fine". Whilst you reserve the right to make rules to make this hard to do, if these rules are NOT broken, you should pay, not delay. There is NO rule that says "you cannot play to win", so if there IS an easy loophole in the rules, it is YOUR fault for not being as good at maths as these players were.
100% agreed. But they did break specific rules. Not spirit rules.
Maths is a PRECISE science, and if you asked 1000 mathematicians for a solution to the same equation, you would get the SAME ANSWER 1000 times. This does NOT indicate these mathematicians are all part of a "syndicate".
In the same way, given a promotion, and a set of rules, a mathematical analysis for "perfect strategy" would always come up with the SAME strategy, so 1000 mathematically skilled players all playing to win (as do MOST gamblers), would give 1000 examples of almost IDENTICAL patterns of gameplay.
THIS IS NOT FRAUD though, and does not even prove the players even know each other, let alone operate a "syndicate".
For these to be a "syndicate", you need proof of collusion between these players, yet even this would NOT give them any more advantage than they already have due to their maths degrees.
We have evidence they do operate in a syndicate. And yes, by operating as a syndicate they can extract a lot more money then as a single player. They also increase their volume, which decreases their variance.
Just as playing big at first and then grinding out WR later doesn't give you a mathematical advantage... just helps with variance and achieving a certain profitability over their activities.
Strategies for playing bonuses with "perfect strategy" are all over the internet, and no collusion is necessary, just a basic knowledge of how to use Google.
The "wizard of odds" has created a convenient one-stop-shop for all kinds of "perfect strategy" plays on every kind of bonus ever dreamed up, and this is further divided into software specific advice, and how play varies between cashable, sticky, and phantom bonuses. There are even downloadable "cards" for use when playing various games with a bonus, and even a section at Phd level "bonus maths" for those without a headache.
The 50% rule is a defence, but it is still possible to mathematiclally adapt a strategy to cope with this, and these are the calculations the casino should be doing BEFORE a set of rules goes live.
IF no rules were broken, and the player was merely "too mathematical" in their approach, this IS simply another way of saying the payouts have been voided for "abusing the spirit of the bonus".
Your 'if' does not apply. They did break rules.
The stories above also show that suspect players have been poorly dealt with, since most other casinos don't pay at all, yet it seems these players have been paid MONTHS worth of installments before they have been "busted", which I'm afraid DOES look like a stalling tactic to help with cashflow, rather than a genuine security concern, given that players NOT suspected of anything have ALSO experienced the SAME kinds of delay.
One legit player, and by no means it is the same type of delay. Fraud players are claiming 5+ months delay. Non fraud players are claiming a month's delay (on a large payout)
I understand and agree with you on your point of how all this comes off to the public. However, we just deal with it in an honest way as best we can.
Where such clever play WOULD be fraud is where they get greedy, and start using fake details to create additional accounts to have another go. The fraud is not then in their play, but in their use of fake details, and/or fake supporting documentation. This probably DOES require some kind of organised "syndicate" to pull off, plus a few "sleepers" willing to allow their details to be used to open further accounts to be played by a small group of expert players.
Whilst this will all come from the same area, there WILL also be some players who are NOT part of this, but that are mathematically skilled enough to come up with the same solution to the "problem" of beating the bonus, hence will exhibit the same playing patterns as the suspected accounts.
Our case is by no means based only on playing patterns.
The REAL solution to this is to rewrite the rules that are currently too profitable for the skilled players, perhaps by reducing the 50% rule to 25%. I doubt many "casual" players will bet 50% of their bankroll, or even of their bonus, on their first bets - however the skilled "high roller" might, because they are used to playing at this level.
Really appreciate the suggestion. We actually applied it the second we found this syndicate.
As for the "grind", this is very much a RESPONSIBLE approach to gambling, where after an early good run, it is FOOLISH to play it all back whilst meeting WR. A RESPONSIBLE gambler also knows how to lock in a WIN, so that they DON'T end up "playing it all back" after hitting big.
100% agreed. Remember, I'm not saying they did 'bad' because of location, or game play, or 'grinding' of WR. These are all just elements in the case. Like flour doesn't alone doesn't make a cake. I'm very confident in our conclusions based on the evidence we posses.
Sorry if missed any point brought up, I'm trying to address all concerns here.
Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager
to how you said it.
