Betphoenix experiences?

[NicolasJohnson]

If I was to ever play here I would need some sort of explanation as to why it is taking months to pay players,

I thought I had gone over this on the last page of this thread, I apologize for not having posted it more clearly, I guess I posted the most important part amid a lot of less important answers. Here goes:

Why? Different reasons. If you want to discuss specific cases, I will try my best without revealing private player info. Although as a whole, I can say, the timing of our launch was quite terrible. I would give the example of a real estate company launching just when the market crashed.

We have had some major adversities. The fact that these adversities have had as little affect on us as they have had (as an overall) is testimony to both good management choices, as well as the strong backing we have from our sportsbook side.

Not that we are perfect, not that we haven't made mistakes, simply, everything in context.

There is only one legitimate player that is confirmed to have a 1+ month cash out on this thread. You make it sounds like there were dozens. Of course 1 is one too many. :notworthy

Why some are being paid in segments of their cashouts and why you made multiple excuses to not pay one of these guys and are still scuffling in attempt to not pay?

You must be referring to your friend, who is part of this newly discovered Pennsylvania syndicate, just like Cabrair32.

These players experienced delays because they were attempting an organized, mathematically calculated group effort in abusing our promotions.

As I said earlier, this is fine, they have every right in the world to want to do that. But we also have every right in the world to put up rules against this. If they decide to break the rules, they risk losing their profits.

As to the 'multiple excuses' part, this is because after breaking multiple rules, these players deny all wrongdoing, in such a sincere-though-unlikely-sounding-way, they fooled some of our staff. They even had me fooled. But the truth comes to light, always.

Somewhere back, I think they have already explained that they are not going to be changing their payout times anytime soon. The casino has established itself. Choose to play or not, but the voice of the customer is not going to swing their business model.

I'm not going to stop pushing until we have brought down payouts to 48 hours, and then hopefully within 24. We are currently working on a total re-work of our business model to ensure we can always provide these time frames.

I understand fast cash outs are essential to ensuring high player satisfaction. The first steps in this re-make will be released in 1-2 months. Although diminishing payout time frames should take a little longer (I expect to we'll be down to 48 hours within 6 months and 1 business day within a year)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[harky68]

Nicolas Johnson has a tiny bit of trouble with the truth it appears.

Here is my experience,

Back in June 15th thru 17th of last year I played there and made a total of $1000 on numerous deposits. I had a $714 cashout and the delays started happening. They asked for different documents again and all that sort of thing and I had to talk to them on the phone a few times. Finally, the money disappeared from my account and Dean, the rep, told me to go to live chat with him. He said that he would try to fix it and he got the money back in my account but it was a denied cashout. He said to withdraw again but I got fed up with all the wait and lost it all back by playing.
My fault I know but it had been a week of non stop nonsense.

I was told it was all taken care of and that I would not have those problems again. I came back on the 24th and deposited a total of $239. This time I had $2008 withdrawal. Again inexplicably it was declined. Again I got frustrated and lost it all back. I vowed to not play there again.

My better judgement lapsed and I played again on August 30th losing another $500. I came back and played again on the 2nd of September. I deposited a total of $200 and hit a great run for a $3325 cashout! Of course it got declined and I had to chat and so on and so on but they paid $1325 of it on the 17th of September, over 2 weeks but a part of it was paid at long last. Of course I had little self control and continued to play while waiting. I contacted every few days asking for my money. In the meantime I was playing often it is stupid I know, but I had a lot of good runs. Once I got a huge straight flush with a $300 bet on tricard! I had a huge run and my balance was well over 9000$$. Again on October 4th I was paid but only $1000. Again on the 14th another $1000. Then poof. Nothing. No payments. None for months.

Dean was gone and Sam kept promising me to stay calm. He asked me not to tell everyone about this and that he promised soon I would get every penny. To just stay calm. I became more uncalm and started getting angry on chat with Sam and others.

Finally, last month I got 2 payments of $850 sent to MoneyGram. Then another of only $600 sent to Western Union on February 26th. After I picked up those payments I contacted Sam back immediately and asked when I was going to get paid again and to stop sending me such small amounts. 2 days later on the 28th I got an email stating that my winnings and payouts were denied. Chats with Nicolas and Sam were fruitless. They also refuse to send me any of my play history but won't give me a reason. It should be known that I am from Pennsylvania. It should also be known that I am not part of any group nor do I cheat. Ever.

 

[maxd]

Nicolas Johnson has a tiny bit of trouble with the truth it appears. ... It should be known that I am from Pennsylvania. It should also be known that I am not part of any group nor do I cheat. Ever.

First time poster, calling the rep a liar (not at all clear where the lie(s) are???), etc. Attach Removed (Old not found)

Sorry fella but we don't know you from Adam. You may or may not be connected to the players in question, it's impossible to tell and just saying "I don't cheat" doesn't carry a lot of water. File a PAB and we'll look into your issue.

 

[ksech]

Wow, I have to say I am absolutely flabberghasted with the way members (mostly newbies, check the join dates...) are treating Nicolas. He doesn't have to make any replies to this or any other thread, there is NO law which states that ANY rep has to participate. And forum members want to know why more reps don't become involved. Here is a prime example why.Just let it be noted, I have NEVER played at BP and I have NEVER had cause to have any contact with Nicolas.

I may be "brainwashed" ,as a certain poster has repeatedly made clear in the time he has been a member here, but sorry folks, I tend to believe Bryan and Maxd when they say there is a problem. I've never had cause to use the services they so generously offer for FREE, so I guess I don't understand when people nitpick the rules for PAB. The system has worked for many, and find only the disgruntled scammers/fraudsters are the ones who "Pitch-A-Bitch" against a service which consumes time and energy and costs the player ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Thank your lucky stars Nicolas and a very few other reps get involved in threads such as these. Remember, there is NO law which states they have to walk through fire to attempt to help the player community...


Sorry for the derail!

 

[maxd]

Wow, I have to say I am absolutely flabberghasted ... Sorry for the derail!

I'd say no apology required. +1 to what you've said and to how you said it.

 

[mbart64]

There is only one legitimate player that is confirmed to have a 1+ month cash out on this thread. You make it sounds like there were dozens. Of course 1 is one too many. :notworthy

hmmmmmmm. It seems that is not really the case at all, now is it?

You must be referring to your friend, who is part of this newly discovered Pennsylvania syndicate, just like Cabrair32.

These players experienced delays because they were attempting an organized, mathematically calculated group effort in abusing our promotions.

As I said earlier, this is fine, they have every right in the world to want to do that. But we also have every right in the world to put up rules against this. If they decide to break the rules, they risk losing their profits.

I have a friend in the states you are saying? I don't follow your friend comment I'm afraid.

If these posters are true and they really bet like they claim then there was certainly no "mathematically calculated group effort" to do any such thing. The last poster also appears to have been playing quite a lot after there were no wagering requirements remaining, even losing a few cashouts due to this habit. Yet they were not breaking rules then? That is not how fraudsters come in and do their business. They were gambling obviously and not well either it appears. Just lucky and not at the same time.


Now the real issue is that most of what you are claiming does not add up. You are claiming that they were getting delays in payments because they had broken so many rules. However, you did pay them sporadically in partial payments over months and months time? Even 2 days prior to confiscating their winnings? You also did claim that cabrair32 broke a term in bet size only to have him display his play history to prove otherwise? Twice you attempted this? You understand that you don't hold a players funds for half of a year only to discover some rule was broken after the fact I'm sure. It would appear that you were seeking any way out of paying that you could imagine.

None of this should give anybody confidence in your casino. Your responses are off topic also. The issues of the delay in payments is getting twisted.
To that point I have an acquaintance that I have been trying to get to join this forum. It is a great forum for starters and this thread in particular interests her. She has had a pending cashout at your casino since February and is not at all comfortable in the fact that she will ever receive her payment.

 

[mbart64]

Wow, I have to say I am absolutely flabberghasted with the way members (mostly newbies, check the join dates...) are treating Nicolas. He doesn't have to make any replies to this or any other thread, there is NO law which states that ANY rep has to participate. And forum members want to know why more reps don't become involved. Here is a prime example why.Just let it be noted, I have NEVER played at BP and I have NEVER had cause to have any contact with Nicolas.

I may be "brainwashed" ,as a certain poster has repeatedly made clear in the time he has been a member here, but sorry folks, I tend to believe Bryan and Maxd when they say there is a problem. I've never had cause to use the services they so generously offer for FREE, so I guess I don't understand when people nitpick the rules for PAB. The system has worked for many, and find only the disgruntled scammers/fraudsters are the ones who "Pitch-A-Bitch" against a service which consumes time and energy and costs the player ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Thank your lucky stars Nicolas and a very few other reps get involved in threads such as these. Remember, there is NO law which states they have to walk through fire to attempt to help the player community...


Sorry for the derail!

ksech,

I understand what you are saying. However, this particular rep is trying to get players confidence up for his casino. He is using this forum as a way to draw interest and/or confidence so that we play there. I don't think he is doing this as a selfless service for players. I think he is attempting damage control at the players who are railing against his casino's bad operation and treatment of players.
I also see a lot of things that he is saying that do not add up. If he wants to come here and type things that are not logical then he should be called out for it and explain. He should not get a free pass to use propaganda to give his casino a good name. It is apparent, at least to me, that this casino is rogue and behaves poorly. Smooth talk shouldn't be allowed to cover up those issues and nobody on this board should be past cross examination. Especially when so many things point to a big problem with the casino. I sure am glad that I found this thread before I ever considered playing there. Many probably feel the same way.

 

[Emmeline]

I previously stated that I would not make any more comments in this thread unless someone would address me. I don't know if you did ksech, since I'm a newbie and have made some critical statements.

It's an objective of mine to keep to facts, whenever that is called for. In my first post directed to Nicolas and "fans" as I put it, I didn't. My emotions got the better of me, as it does sometimes when you're reminded of a situation you were once in.
I'm not proud of that, but I will learn from it.
My sincere apologies to Nicolas as well as the members.
As I have told Nicolas, after these arguments, I can truly understand why so many members think so highly of and respect him.
(have to add that I didn't have any preconceptions or thought otherwise)

My take-off-point, so to speak was, although I'm aware that participation is optional; Nicolas has chosen to be active. If I don't agree with what he says or his statements don't reflect my experiences, I guess there's nothing wrong in being critical.
In retrospect I should have taken on a different attitude, and maybe offered some advice instead of being somewhat cynical.

Since I have previously pushed for openness in this thread, here it goes.

Thank you Nicolas for your prompt replies to my concerns and for being corteous and responsive!

Thank you Csech, I agree

Emme

 

[jetset]

ksech,

I understand what you are saying. However, this particular rep is trying to get players confidence up for his casino. He is using this forum as a way to draw interest and/or confidence so that we play there. I don't think he is doing this as a selfless service for players. I think he is attempting damage control at the players who are railing against his casino's bad operation and treatment of players.
I also see a lot of things that he is saying that do not add up. If he wants to come here and type things that are not logical then he should be called out for it and explain. He should not get a free pass to use propaganda to give his casino a good name. It is apparent, at least to me, that this casino is rogue and behaves poorly. Smooth talk shouldn't be allowed to cover up those issues and nobody on this board should be past cross examination. Especially when so many things point to a big problem with the casino. I sure am glad that I found this thread before I ever considered playing there. Many probably feel the same way.

Speaking personally, I don't give a damn what a rep's motivation is for regularly coming here and communicating or helping resolve issues...for me the fact that he or she is effective in doing so is all the justification I require.

Speaking of motives, imo this poster has been making a number of accusations without much substantiation or even detail, and I would like to know more about his/her complaints....unless he/she has launched a PAB, in which case we'll have to wait for the result.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

You must be referring to your friend, who is part of this newly discovered Pennsylvania syndicate, just like Cabrair32.

These players experienced delays because they were attempting an organized, mathematically calculated group effort in abusing our promotions.

As I said earlier, this is fine, they have every right in the world to want to do that. But we also have every right in the world to put up rules against this. If they decide to break the rules, they risk losing their profits.

As to the 'multiple excuses' part, this is because after breaking multiple rules, these players deny all wrongdoing, in such a sincere-though-unlikely-sounding-way, they fooled some of our staff. They even had me fooled. But the truth comes to light, always.




Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

This is beginning to sound very like the 'spirit of the bonus' argument AKA the invoking of the FU clause.

If these players have broken multiple rules as you state then why not just show Bryan and Max and all this can get easily cleared up?

Or just specify which part of the terms and conditions they have breached?

Obviously you don't want to reveal the nuts and bolts of it in public I understand that. But it is you who has made the accusation in public so it does need to be addressed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I thought I had gone over this on the last page of this thread, I apologize for not having posted it more clearly, I guess I posted the most important part amid a lot of less important answers. Here goes:



There is only one legitimate player that is confirmed to have a 1+ month cash out on this thread. You make it sounds like there were dozens. Of course 1 is one too many. :notworthy



You must be referring to your friend, who is part of this newly discovered Pennsylvania syndicate, just like Cabrair32.

These players experienced delays because they were attempting an organized, mathematically calculated group effort in abusing our promotions.
As I said earlier, this is fine, they have every right in the world to want to do that. But we also have every right in the world to put up rules against this. If they decide to break the rules, they risk losing their profits.

As to the 'multiple excuses' part, this is because after breaking multiple rules, these players deny all wrongdoing, in such a sincere-though-unlikely-sounding-way, they fooled some of our staff. They even had me fooled. But the truth comes to light, always.



I'm not going to stop pushing until we have brought down payouts to 48 hours, and then hopefully within 24. We are currently working on a total re-work of our business model to ensure we can always provide these time frames.

I understand fast cash outs are essential to ensuring high player satisfaction. The first steps in this re-make will be released in 1-2 months. Although diminishing payout time frames should take a little longer (I expect to we'll be down to 48 hours within 6 months and 1 business day within a year)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

So what - they are good at maths and determined to win. As you say, "this is fine". Whilst you reserve the right to make rules to make this hard to do, if these rules are NOT broken, you should pay, not delay. There is NO rule that says "you cannot play to win", so if there IS an easy loophole in the rules, it is YOUR fault for not being as good at maths as these players were.

Maths is a PRECISE science, and if you asked 1000 mathematicians for a solution to the same equation, you would get the SAME ANSWER 1000 times. This does NOT indicate these mathematicians are all part of a "syndicate".

In the same way, given a promotion, and a set of rules, a mathematical analysis for "perfect strategy" would always come up with the SAME strategy, so 1000 mathematically skilled players all playing to win (as do MOST gamblers), would give 1000 examples of almost IDENTICAL patterns of gameplay.

THIS IS NOT FRAUD though, and does not even prove the players even know each other, let alone operate a "syndicate".

For these to be a "syndicate", you need proof of collusion between these players, yet even this would NOT give them any more advantage than they already have due to their maths degrees.

Strategies for playing bonuses with "perfect strategy" are all over the internet, and no collusion is necessary, just a basic knowledge of how to use Google.

The "wizard of odds" has created a convenient one-stop-shop for all kinds of "perfect strategy" plays on every kind of bonus ever dreamed up, and this is further divided into software specific advice, and how play varies between cashable, sticky, and phantom bonuses. There are even downloadable "cards" for use when playing various games with a bonus, and even a section at Phd level "bonus maths" for those without a headache.

The 50% rule is a defence, but it is still possible to mathematiclally adapt a strategy to cope with this, and these are the calculations the casino should be doing BEFORE a set of rules goes live.

IF no rules were broken, and the player was merely "too mathematical" in their approach, this IS simply another way of saying the payouts have been voided for "abusing the spirit of the bonus".

The stories above also show that suspect players have been poorly dealt with, since most other casinos don't pay at all, yet it seems these players have been paid MONTHS worth of installments before they have been "busted", which I'm afraid DOES look like a stalling tactic to help with cashflow, rather than a genuine security concern, given that players NOT suspected of anything have ALSO experienced the SAME kinds of delay.

Where such clever play WOULD be fraud is where they get greedy, and start using fake details to create additional accounts to have another go. The fraud is not then in their play, but in their use of fake details, and/or fake supporting documentation. This probably DOES require some kind of organised "syndicate" to pull off, plus a few "sleepers" willing to allow their details to be used to open further accounts to be played by a small group of expert players.
Whilst this will all come from the same area, there WILL also be some players who are NOT part of this, but that are mathematically skilled enough to come up with the same solution to the "problem" of beating the bonus, hence will exhibit the same playing patterns as the suspected accounts.

The REAL solution to this is to rewrite the rules that are currently too profitable for the skilled players, perhaps by reducing the 50% rule to 25%. I doubt many "casual" players will bet 50% of their bankroll, or even of their bonus, on their first bets - however the skilled "high roller" might, because they are used to playing at this level.

As for the "grind", this is very much a RESPONSIBLE approach to gambling, where after an early good run, it is FOOLISH to play it all back whilst meeting WR. A RESPONSIBLE gambler also knows how to lock in a WIN, so that they DON'T end up "playing it all back" after hitting big.

 

[maxd]

...unless he/she has launched a PAB, in which case we'll have to wait for the result.

Nope, no PAB. Just the comments here and this thread titan Casino warning.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

hmmmmmmm. It seems that is not really the case at all, now is it?

I have a friend in the states you are saying? I don't follow your friend comment I'm afraid.

If these posters are true and they really bet like they claim then there was certainly no "mathematically calculated group effort" to do any such thing. The last poster also appears to have been playing quite a lot after there were no wagering requirements remaining, even losing a few cashouts due to this habit. Yet they were not breaking rules then? That is not how fraudsters come in and do their business. They were gambling obviously and not well either it appears. Just lucky and not at the same time.

IF they presented the facts correctly. IF. If they are completely innocent, they can file a resolution with a reputable mediation channel like CM or Hastings, and these channels will ensure fair dealings.

Regarding the friend comment, my apologies, I think I confused you with another poster on this thread (it is getting a bit long and hard to follow sometimes, sorry )

Apparently these Pennsylvania people have a number of friends posting for them.

Now the real issue is that most of what you are claiming does not add up. You are claiming that they were getting delays in payments because they had broken so many rules. However, you did pay them sporadically in partial payments over months and months time? Even 2 days prior to confiscating their winnings? You also did claim that cabrair32 broke a term in bet size only to have him display his play history to prove otherwise? Twice you attempted this? You understand that you don't hold a players funds for half of a year only to discover some rule was broken after the fact I'm sure. It would appear that you were seeking any way out of paying that you could imagine.

Using cases of fraud to demonstrate slow payment of regular players may not be the best gauge. We did have a legit player with a delay. We are very sorry about his. However, if you are going to break the rules, you can expect delays. We also committed a bad mistake in not identifying this issue earlier. But this is hardly something to hold against us as a player, rather something we hold against ourselves.

None of this should give anybody confidence in your casino. Your responses are off topic also. The issues of the delay in payments is getting twisted.
To that point I have an acquaintance that I have been trying to get to join this forum. It is a great forum for starters and this thread in particular interests her. She has had a pending cashout at your casino since February and is not at all comfortable in the fact that she will ever receive her payment.

The situation of your friend is going to be simple. Either she didn't break the rules, and in which case will get paid, or she did break them, in which case she didn't. If she wants me to look into her account I will be glad to (you can even PM me her username). If she wants to PAB, or contact other mediators, I will be glad to cooperate.

ksech,

I understand what you are saying. However, this particular rep is trying to get players confidence up for his casino. He is using this forum as a way to draw interest and/or confidence so that we play there. I don't think he is doing this as a selfless service for players.

Of course this is not selfless. I never said I'm the Holy Saint of Gamblers. I get paid for doing my job. I make my living off of this industry. I eat, pay my rent, help my family and girlfriend, feed my dog, and pay my bills thanks to the industry.

However, that same vested interest in the industry makes it so that I want this industry to be the best it can be. To me it is all quite simple:

Happy players = high retention of players = high profitability = better ability to serve players = happier players = happier affiliates = a bigger industry.

Angry players = low retention of players = low profitability = lower ability to serve players = even angrier players = angry affiliates = an industry that isn't all it could be.

I don't get paid extra if the company I'm in does good or bad one month. But I will grow professionally if the company I'm at does things right LONG TERM. I will do even better if the industry I'm in does better long term. This is what I care about.

I think he is attempting damage control at the players who are railing against his casino's bad operation and treatment of players.

We have made mistakes that have affected honest players. But every business makes mistakes. It is how many they make, what % of customers are affected, and how the mistakes are handled. When we mess up, I hardly cover it up. I have an honesty policy, and if I truly believe we did wrong, I will say so. However if we are being wronged, I will also say so.

I also see a lot of things that he is saying that do not add up. If he wants to come here and type things that are not logical then he should be called out for it and explain.

100% agreed. What did I type that was not logical?

He should not get a free pass to use propaganda to give his casino a good name.

It is apparent, at least to me, that this casino is rogue and behaves poorly. Smooth talk shouldn't be allowed to cover up those issues and nobody on this board should be past cross examination.

Especially when so many things point to a big problem with the casino. I sure am glad that I found this thread before I ever considered playing there. Many probably feel the same way.

You speak as if I can be in-coherent without getting called out on it. This is simply not true. Maybe your opinion/statements on this matter are influenced by your friend who was found to be breaking the rules?

As I said, anything that is non-logical in my posts, as you put it, can easily be pointed out by anyone, including you. And the times I have made mistakes, I've found they get pointed out quite quickly.

This is beginning to sound very like the 'spirit of the bonus' argument AKA the invoking of the FU clause.

If these players have broken multiple rules as you state then why not just show Bryan and Max and all this can get easily cleared up?

I will as soon as the PAB's come in. Privacy is something I respect.

I'd actually love to show them the info, as I'm sure it might help them with the other PABs from this same group of players. However, I feel that may be the reason they aren't doing a PAB.

Or just specify which part of the terms and conditions they have breached?

Obviously you don't want to reveal the nuts and bolts of it in public I understand that. But it is you who has made the accusation in public so it does need to be addressed.

Specific T&Cs have been breached. There are a number of players involved in this syndicate. Each broke specific rules, which I would be glad to share with the mediation channel these players choose to pursue.

So what - they are good at maths and determined to win. As you say, "this is fine". Whilst you reserve the right to make rules to make this hard to do, if these rules are NOT broken, you should pay, not delay. There is NO rule that says "you cannot play to win", so if there IS an easy loophole in the rules, it is YOUR fault for not being as good at maths as these players were.

100% agreed. But they did break specific rules. Not spirit rules.

Maths is a PRECISE science, and if you asked 1000 mathematicians for a solution to the same equation, you would get the SAME ANSWER 1000 times. This does NOT indicate these mathematicians are all part of a "syndicate".

In the same way, given a promotion, and a set of rules, a mathematical analysis for "perfect strategy" would always come up with the SAME strategy, so 1000 mathematically skilled players all playing to win (as do MOST gamblers), would give 1000 examples of almost IDENTICAL patterns of gameplay.

THIS IS NOT FRAUD though, and does not even prove the players even know each other, let alone operate a "syndicate".

For these to be a "syndicate", you need proof of collusion between these players, yet even this would NOT give them any more advantage than they already have due to their maths degrees.

We have evidence they do operate in a syndicate. And yes, by operating as a syndicate they can extract a lot more money then as a single player. They also increase their volume, which decreases their variance.

Just as playing big at first and then grinding out WR later doesn't give you a mathematical advantage... just helps with variance and achieving a certain profitability over their activities.

Strategies for playing bonuses with "perfect strategy" are all over the internet, and no collusion is necessary, just a basic knowledge of how to use Google.

The "wizard of odds" has created a convenient one-stop-shop for all kinds of "perfect strategy" plays on every kind of bonus ever dreamed up, and this is further divided into software specific advice, and how play varies between cashable, sticky, and phantom bonuses. There are even downloadable "cards" for use when playing various games with a bonus, and even a section at Phd level "bonus maths" for those without a headache.

The 50% rule is a defence, but it is still possible to mathematiclally adapt a strategy to cope with this, and these are the calculations the casino should be doing BEFORE a set of rules goes live.

IF no rules were broken, and the player was merely "too mathematical" in their approach, this IS simply another way of saying the payouts have been voided for "abusing the spirit of the bonus".

Your 'if' does not apply. They did break rules.

The stories above also show that suspect players have been poorly dealt with, since most other casinos don't pay at all, yet it seems these players have been paid MONTHS worth of installments before they have been "busted", which I'm afraid DOES look like a stalling tactic to help with cashflow, rather than a genuine security concern, given that players NOT suspected of anything have ALSO experienced the SAME kinds of delay.

One legit player, and by no means it is the same type of delay. Fraud players are claiming 5+ months delay. Non fraud players are claiming a month's delay (on a large payout)

I understand and agree with you on your point of how all this comes off to the public. However, we just deal with it in an honest way as best we can.

Where such clever play WOULD be fraud is where they get greedy, and start using fake details to create additional accounts to have another go. The fraud is not then in their play, but in their use of fake details, and/or fake supporting documentation. This probably DOES require some kind of organised "syndicate" to pull off, plus a few "sleepers" willing to allow their details to be used to open further accounts to be played by a small group of expert players.
Whilst this will all come from the same area, there WILL also be some players who are NOT part of this, but that are mathematically skilled enough to come up with the same solution to the "problem" of beating the bonus, hence will exhibit the same playing patterns as the suspected accounts.

Our case is by no means based only on playing patterns.

The REAL solution to this is to rewrite the rules that are currently too profitable for the skilled players, perhaps by reducing the 50% rule to 25%. I doubt many "casual" players will bet 50% of their bankroll, or even of their bonus, on their first bets - however the skilled "high roller" might, because they are used to playing at this level.

Really appreciate the suggestion. We actually applied it the second we found this syndicate.

As for the "grind", this is very much a RESPONSIBLE approach to gambling, where after an early good run, it is FOOLISH to play it all back whilst meeting WR. A RESPONSIBLE gambler also knows how to lock in a WIN, so that they DON'T end up "playing it all back" after hitting big.

100% agreed. Remember, I'm not saying they did 'bad' because of location, or game play, or 'grinding' of WR. These are all just elements in the case. Like flour doesn't alone doesn't make a cake. I'm very confident in our conclusions based on the evidence we posses.

Sorry if missed any point brought up, I'm trying to address all concerns here.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[mbart64]

Nicolas, the more I read on this post the less I trust what you are saying. There are so many issues that I am having with this. You asked me what was not logical.

Let's start by asking you what friend of mine was found to be breaking any rules? You have repeatedly talked as if I had a friend who was caught breaking your rules. That is not the case at all and I don't know where you are getting that notion. This thread says nothing of that.
I do have a friend whom I am hoping joins this forum that has been waiting on a withdrawal for over a month. I do not have a friend who you are accusing of breaking rules. Although it appears as though that may be your next step in attempting to not pay them.

What seems totally wrong to me is that you are claiming these players were getting stalled and delayed because they were rule breakers. The only problem with that is that for one thing, you accused them of rules being broken that they could prove they did not. So you falsely accused them then. For another thing if you thought they were breakers of rules then you would NOT HAVE PAID THEM AT ALL. I do not believe that you thought they were rule breakers. Apparently you even gave them a small payment 2 days prior to coming up with this story. So until that point you obviously believed them to be legitimate players and you were delaying them and giving them partial payments. You were apparently doing this for months and months. Now if you believe them to be frauds then did you get their documents? You must have if you paid them. If this is not the truth then please spell it out for us. The posters who made those claims gave exact dates. It is not honest to claim they were not getting paid because of rules violations. You were simply slow paying them is what all the evidence points to.


Lets next move to your constant syndicate claim. The posters could be lying of course but you have not given any indication that they are in regards to their play and deposit history. They are claiming to have wagered many times at your casino. One of them is claiming to have played away winnings several times and even kept playing after wagering requirements at £300 per hand. This does NOT sound like the work of a gambling syndicate. This 50% of balance rule keeps coming up. Are you saying that they are abusive because your rules state to not bet more than 50% of their balance........ and they followed that rule? So they followed your rule and that is abusive?

It is things like this that is making it hard to take your claims seriously. Along with the fact that my acquaintance has been delayed in her payment as well so I see it happening even as you say it is being fixed.

Now with all of my doubts being said I do think that you are being good to stay in this thread. I do think you are good to offer to take PMs to help a player. I am sure everyone appreciates that. However, you should not be forced to constantly do this because your casino is not run properly. I am surprised that with your demeanor you would not be more happy working with an accredited casino or one a little more upstanding. It is extremely difficult not to like you. I just wish that you would be representing a reputable casino and not bet phoenix. That relationship is bringing you down.

 

[mbart64]

Nope, no PAB. Just the comments here and this thread titan Casino warning.

And What exactly would either of you gentlemen like me to file a PAB about?

I am beginning to think that details are often overlooked by some when reading other people's posts on this forum.

You can also find some of my postings here if that helps

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/instant-payments.42548/

 

[maxd]

And What exactly would either of you gentlemen like me to file a PAB about?

I am beginning to think that details are often overlooked by some when reading other people's posts on this forum.

Like you've just done here for instance? I said nothing about thinking there should be a PAB, I only said that there wasn't one.

Lets next move to your constant syndicate claim. The posters could be lying of course but you have not given any indication that they are in regards to their play and deposit history.

We've handled cases here at Casinomeister related to this syndicate stuff and in the course of those investigations we've seen (some of) the evidence the casino has against these players. It is more than sufficient to support the syndicate accusations.

As I'm sure you know the casino is under no obligation to present this evidence here since (a) this is a public forum and the information they have isn't appropriate for public display and (b) to do so would very likely reveal more to the syndicate members than would be wise for the casino in terms of their fraud investigation procedures. And let's not forget that it's always the fraudsters who say they trust no one but they really want the casino to show their hand and tell them what they've got. Of course they want to know because they want to know how much the casino knows, and how they got caught. That stuff is private casino info and I'm sure you know that.

There was syndicate fraud from these guys in Philly, there probably still is, and who is or isn't part of that is a work in progress. Take it or leave it but there it is.

 

[chuchu59]

Like you for instance? I said nothing about thinking there should be a PAB, I only said that there wasn't one.

ya right about the subject. the only question is whether the 'b' in pab should be bas***d instead of bitch.

 

[maxd]

ya right about the subject. the only question is whether the 'b' in pab should be bas***d instead of bitch.

Sorry Chu, you've lost me. Feel free to clarify.

 

[ksech]

errr, taking a chance of deciphering here...
Pitch a "bastard" to the curb maybe?

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Thanks for the reply Nicolas .

I must say it does always raise alarm bells when I hear the 'syndicate' accusation. Like if they really were an online syndicate why on earth would they all register from Pennsylvania? That would be crazy!

If it really was a syndicate they would a) be all over the USA/world, b) stagger their registrations and c) mix up their play.

The reality of it is that this is most likely a group of young people probably at college and one of them has come up with a certain plan and passed it to his mates who joined in. Whether they did it as individuals or pooled winnings is anyone's guess and impossible to prove. They may be chancers/opportunists as much as a syndicate.

I guess a lot of it comes down to the method they used and was it a blatant cheat/software manipulation or something of that nature? I think it is the gameplay and methods used that would flag them as a syndicate rather than physical location.

One thing that worries me about all this is you say these players broke multiple rules but then you appear to contradict yourself saying to VWM that you have just drawn up a new set of rules!!! Why would you need to do that? It seems to imply the players had not broken the first set of rules and that it was the rules themselves that were at fault.

How many players is it roughly and how much money are we talking about here? If it's under 10 players and like $20K then wouldn't it be better to pay up and close the accounts? I mean you guys have the US market all to yourselves you have this fantastic opportunity so I imagine you must be doing very well. In a viral marketing way it's also good publicity for you if the players do get away with a big play once in a while.

Please understand I am not for one moment condoning practises like cheating. I must admit your post does sound like you are certain that is the case. But then it worries me you introduced a rule change AFTER these guys won.

I am still not comfortable you have accused these players of fraud in public like this before the PAB/Hastings process has even happened. I think you should look carefully at your legal position as to all this or you could end up paying substantial damages to all these players if the accusations can't be proven.

You seem pretty angry about this and these players may well have cheated you but if you make these kind of public accusations you have got to be 100% right on it.

 

[mbart64]

We've handled cases here at Casinomeister related to this syndicate stuff and in the course of those investigations we've seen (some of) the evidence the casino has against these players. It is more than sufficient to support the syndicate accusations.

As I'm sure you know the casino is under no obligation to present this evidence here since (a) this is a public forum and the information they have isn't appropriate for public display and (b) to do so would very likely reveal more to the syndicate members than would be wise for the casino in terms of their fraud investigation procedures. And let's not forget that it's always the fraudsters who say they trust no one but they really want the casino to show their hand and tell them what they've got. Of course they want to know because they want to know how much the casino knows, and how they got caught. That stuff is private casino info and I'm sure you know that.

There was syndicate fraud from these guys in Philly, there probably still is, and who is or isn't part of that is a work in progress. Take it or leave it but there it is.

Regarding my comment on details, if it didn't apply to you then I wasn't referring to you.


Regarding the quoted text above - Now that is good information. I have not figured out how to do the thank you thingy at the bottom of posts but this was an angle that I had never considered. Thank you for that info. Interesting.

 

[greasemonkey]

Thanks for the reply Nicolas .

I must say it does always raise alarm bells when I hear the 'syndicate' accusation. Like if they really were an online syndicate why on earth would they all register from Pennsylvania? That would be crazy!

If it really was a syndicate they would a) be all over the USA/world, b) stagger their registrations and c) mix up their play.

The reality of it is that this is most likely a group of young people probably at college and one of them has come up with a certain plan and passed it to his mates who joined in. Whether they did it as individuals or pooled winnings is anyone's guess and impossible to prove. They may be chancers/opportunists as much as a syndicate.

I guess a lot of it comes down to the method they used and was it a blatant cheat/software manipulation or something of that nature? I think it is the gameplay and methods used that would flag them as a syndicate rather than physical location.

One thing that worries me about all this is you say these players broke multiple rules but then you appear to contradict yourself saying to VWM that you have just drawn up a new set of rules!!! Why would you need to do that? It seems to imply the players had not broken the first set of rules and that it was the rules themselves that were at fault.

How many players is it roughly and how much money are we talking about here? If it's under 10 players and like $20K then wouldn't it be better to pay up and close the accounts? I mean you guys have the US market all to yourselves you have this fantastic opportunity so I imagine you must be doing very well. In a viral marketing way it's also good publicity for you if the players do get away with a big play once in a while.

Please understand I am not for one moment condoning practises like cheating. I must admit your post does sound like you are certain that is the case. But then it worries me you introduced a rule change AFTER these guys won.

I am still not comfortable you have accused these players of fraud in public like this before the PAB/Hastings process has even happened. I think you should look carefully at your legal position as to all this or you could end up paying substantial damages to all these players if the accusations can't be proven.

You seem pretty angry about this and these players may well have cheated you but if you make these kind of public accusations you have got to be 100% right on it.

I have been swept up in some of this stuff. I have absolute certainty that the casinos are throwing a big blanket on a situation and including innocent players. Which ones are innocent? I don't know. I do know that I am yet I have been locked out of mainstreet and Lock and cleopatras and virtual.

I think the big thing that is being overlooked is that other than 3dice, most USA players are going to pick a RTG casino(s) and play them. I am pretty sure that I have played every RTG available to me. Well so do most other Online gamblers from America I'm sure. Would that mean we are all a syndicate? I'm also not young. I'm mid 40's in age. I did not get kicked out of BP casino. I wonder if I had won then maybe I would have. This all leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I know what it feels like to be wrongly accused. It has happened to me several times now and at least some are big enough to apologize for it.
I also must say that when I look at BP's T&C of their bonuses. I know how I would play it. I'm guessing a bunch of players would attack it similarly to give themselves a chance to win. If we all did would we be considered a syndicate?
I believe that if any player that is accused of this activity can supply all of the documentation that RTG demands (Picture ID, fax back form, bank stmt, ewallet screenshots, utility bill... etal) then how could they be fraudulent? It seems Cabrair32 cannot supply these documents. So then it is likely that he may be acting fraudulently. But what if a player accused of being a fraud actually can supply all of the documents to show that he is not a fraud? Playing style and having a "game plan" for beating a casino while following the rules is NOT FRAUDULENT by any stretch and to consider it so is ridiculous. Just like Bryans last "spirit of the bonus" video. Of course players want to win.

Also, it bothers me that it is possible that if you are labled a fraud by a casino does that mean that if it ever happens again that the casino will likely be believed based on prior accusations? Like I mentioned, American players are limited basically to RTG for the most part. AND ONLY RTG is using this fraud complaint or "syndicate" complaint to keep money.

bottom line should be that if a player has not broken a term. Not played a disallowed game and can provide all documentation asked to prove his/her Identity then there should not be any way to charge the player and keep his money. It should not matter if others have played the same way. If they can provide all the necessary proof that they are indeed who they claim and are of age then there should be no problem. Was it a syndicate at betfair when they kept everyone's money? NO, it was just obvious how to win on the terms provided. I imagine most players did the smart thing and won.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have been swept up in some of this stuff. I have absolute certainty that the casinos are throwing a big blanket on a situation and including innocent players. Which ones are innocent? I don't know. I do know that I am yet I have been locked out of mainstreet and Lock and cleopatras and virtual.

I think the big thing that is being overlooked is that other than 3dice, most USA players are going to pick a RTG casino(s) and play them. I am pretty sure that I have played every RTG available to me. Well so do most other Online gamblers from America I'm sure. Would that mean we are all a syndicate? I'm also not young. I'm mid 40's in age. I did not get kicked out of BP casino. I wonder if I had won then maybe I would have. This all leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I know what it feels like to be wrongly accused. It has happened to me several times now and at least some are big enough to apologize for it.
I also must say that when I look at BP's T&C of their bonuses. I know how I would play it. I'm guessing a bunch of players would attack it similarly to give themselves a chance to win. If we all did would we be considered a syndicate?
I believe that if any player that is accused of this activity can supply all of the documentation that RTG demands (Picture ID, fax back form, bank stmt, ewallet screenshots, utility bill... etal) then how could they be fraudulent? It seems Cabrair32 cannot supply these documents. So then it is likely that he may be acting fraudulently. But what if a player accused of being a fraud actually can supply all of the documents to show that he is not a fraud? Playing style and having a "game plan" for beating a casino while following the rules is NOT FRAUDULENT by any stretch and to consider it so is ridiculous. Just like Bryans last "spirit of the bonus" video. Of course players want to win.

Also, it bothers me that it is possible that if you are labled a fraud by a casino does that mean that if it ever happens again that the casino will likely be believed based on prior accusations? Like I mentioned, American players are limited basically to RTG for the most part. AND ONLY RTG is using this fraud complaint or "syndicate" complaint to keep money.

bottom line should be that if a player has not broken a term. Not played a disallowed game and can provide all documentation asked to prove his/her Identity then there should not be any way to charge the player and keep his money. It should not matter if others have played the same way. If they can provide all the necessary proof that they are indeed who they claim and are of age then there should be no problem. Was it a syndicate at betfair when they kept everyone's money? NO, it was just obvious how to win on the terms provided. I imagine most players did the smart thing and won.

This is what concerns me.

What is it that makes a group of players a "syndicate" in the eyes of the casino?

This is a vague term, and seems to be applied when too many players WIN. What about all these "bonus beater" forums out there, where the webmasters and members collude by discussing a particular promotion, and the best way to profit from it - and then go along en-masse to do it. This seems to look like a "syndicate", yet all these players are doing is pooling INFORMATION, in other words, using the internet for it's intended purpose.

What about someone who produces and sells a "bonus beater's handbook" on eBay; are all players who buy and use it members of a syndicate run by the author of the book?

It seems that any player who has found some kind of "perfect strategy" on the internet, and employs it WITHOUT breaking any specific rules can STILL face the accusation of being in a syndicate because more than a given threshold of other players have also used this SAME "perfect strategy", perhaps having found it in the same way.

All of us here at CM "collude" to some extent, since promotions, and how to win at them, are often discussed.

It is all very well claiming that players DID break the rules, but if the rules are vague, whether they are broken is only a matter of opinion, rather than fact.

Take the 50% rule. IF a player bets 49% to start with, gets ahead, and then switches to the smallest "grind" possible to make WR and preserve the profit, this may well be considered "abusive", but only in the sense of "in the spirit of". However advantageous and "abusive" the tactic, at the time it did NOT break the rules.

If these players are using their own ID at registration, and can supply all the necessary documentation to prove it, neither are they breaking THAT rule (the one about having to supply genuine details).

If they use their OWN money, and can demonstrate ownership of the source account, they are NOT breaking the rule of only playing with their own money.

Whilst it seems odd that a syndicate would play anything other than "perfect strategy", it is actually the case that they WOULD, as this provides "cover play" to disguise what they are doing, making it harder to detect. The same concept is used by magicians in order to divert attention to the mechanics of the trick they are doing (such as getting the audience to look up whilst they pull the extra card from their sleeve), so that the audience thinks it really is "magic".

What we lack is clear guidance of where the dividing line lies between a community of like minded players sharing information, and a syndicate.

 

[maxd]

It seems it hasn't been made perfectly clear here yet but the info on this "syndicate" was about organized fraud, not just the discovery of a wee group of pals having an innocent go at a casino bonus.

When "friends" collude to commit fraud and an organized assault on a casino or group of casinos then that "syndicate" very much is the concern of the casino, and us for that matter. One can always imagine scenarios of innocence but such efforts are misplaced here and in this case.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It seems it hasn't been made perfectly clear here yet but the info on this "syndicate" was about organized fraud, not just the discovery of a wee group of pals having an innocent go at a casino bonus.

When "friends" collude to commit fraud and an organized assault on a casino or group of casinos then that "syndicate" very much is the concern of the casino, and us for that matter. One can always imagine scenarios of innocence but such efforts are misplaced here and in this case.

So, the dividing line is where the players turn to misrepresentation in order to get more than they would otherwise be entitled to, such as using multiple accounts, and playing on accounts other than their own.


Players who simply share information, but play on their own account, and with their own funds, have nothing to worry about?

What about players who BORROW money in order to make larger deposits, and thus utilise larger bonuses?
Since casinos offer CREDIT cards as a deposit option, they clearly don't have a problem with players borrowing money in order to play, even though the UK government are increasingly uneasy about it.

Whilst vague replies from the casino makes them look "dodgy", the SAME can be said for PLAYERS that seem unduly reluctant to PAB, or supply documents that are normally expected to be requested by any player with experience of the industry, and which would often be scanned & ready on their PC or secure storage to fire off on demand.

 

[Nifty29]

FFS.

We don't know even HALF of the facts here, but still people are accusing the casino of this and that and taking on the cause of the 'innocent' players.

Some continue to go on about them being 'banned for winning' and 'not breaking any terms' and that there is 'nothing wrong with a group of smart players using a system' etc etc.

Max has said repeatedly that this is a case of ORGANIZED FRAUD. Not how much they bet, or spirit of the bonus or anything like that.

The choice is whether you believe Max and Bryan who have SEEN the evidence personally, or some blow- in who we don't know from a bar of soap....AND is SO aggrieved at being ripped off by the casino for no reason that they WON'T FILE A PAB ( If that isn't a red flag for anyone with an ounce of common sense then I don't know what is)

I'm no fan of betphoenix, but come on. Let's at least place SOME faith in the people who run this site and consider that there may be far more to this than meets the eye. I know one thing for sure - none of those accused have behaved anything like innocent victims.

 

[anniemac]

I'm no fan of BetPhoenix as some of you will know, however what I am going to post really doesn't have anything to do with them except in a general way.

Someone explain to me how you can run a syndicate to cheat a casino and really expect to not be caught. You have to send in ID, money info., and lots of other personal stuff to play. All have to be in your name and be able to be verified. Can't use the same IP address so you can't be in the same house using a WiFi connection.

So what would be the point in trying to do this? I guess I am dense but I just don't get it.

Some years ago here in Texas, there were several gambling rooms busted by the police. The people were actually playing on a computer, looked like RTG or MG games to me. How would they be able to do this and not be called a syndicate? This was back before WiFi etc, when you had to use a landline for computer connection.

This just makes no sense to me.

 

[takethemoney]

The casinos put the software out there to be played and accept your money. The fact that some players might beat them is a calculated risk, but also within the house odds, as determined by their RTP settings, bet sizes accepted and outcomes are determined by the trusty RNG. In this form the casino automatically has the edge overall. I can hardly see where a player who plays within the paramenters of what the casino software allows can be cheating. Now the casinos get beat at their own game and when a player gets particularly lucky, they cry foul and try and use ambiguous T&Cs against the player, which were specifically written as a parachute to avoid paying some players.

So again, I really don't get how players can cheat, if ID, proof of residence, etc., are required. I've never been able to cash out without sending in my docs and if I had multiple accounts that would be caught by casino security. The syndicate term just doesn't make sense. I can see where I could call some of my friends and say let's jump on a machine with a high Random jackpot. We'll all play and if it hits we'll split the money. We'd still have to pay to play and would be risking losing our money.

 

[anniemac]

My point exactly.

 

[maxd]

Regarding my comment on details, if it didn't apply to you then I wasn't referring to you.

First you quoted me, then in your first sentence you said "you gentlemen" referring to Jetset and I, then you made a thinly veiled jab about "some people" not reading the details.

So obviously it did "apply" to me. Don't be a schmuck: either say your piece and stick with it or keep your kvetching to yourself. Playing word games when one of us calls you out is childish and unwelcome.

And of course this completely skirts the issue of you not following your own advice in the first place. So please do, follow your own advice that is, and knock it off with the silly games.

 

[Cabrair32]

I believe that if any player that is accused of this activity can supply all of the documentation that RTG demands (Picture ID, fax back form, bank stmt, ewallet screenshots, utility bill... etal) then how could they be fraudulent? It seems Cabrair32 cannot supply these documents. So then it is likely that he may be acting fraudulently. But what if a player accused of being a fraud actually can supply all of the documents to show that he is not a fraud? Playing style and having a "game plan" for beating a casino while following the rules is NOT FRAUDULENT by any stretch and to consider it so is ridiculous. Just like Bryans last "spirit of the bonus" video. Of course players want to win.

Also, it bothers me that it is possible that if you are labled a fraud by a casino does that mean that if it ever happens again that the casino will likely be believed based on prior accusations? Like I mentioned, American players are limited basically to RTG for the most part. AND ONLY RTG is using this fraud complaint or "syndicate" complaint to keep money.

bottom line should be that if a player has not broken a term. Not played a disallowed game and can provide all documentation asked to prove his/her Identity then there should not be any way to charge the player and keep his money. It should not matter if others have played the same way. If they can provide all the necessary proof that they are indeed who they claim and are of age then there should be no problem. Was it a syndicate at betfair when they kept everyone's money? NO, it was just obvious how to win on the terms provided. I imagine most players did the smart thing and won.

No, no, no!!! This is just not true. It has been inferred but it is not even remotely true. I had sent in all of my documents AND HAD THEM APPROVED by bet phonix. I have NEVER had a problem sending in any of my documents to any casino and I have played many. The only issue I had was that I had to open a secondary email address that I ONLY use for the pab process. I don't check it often. On March 8th Max emailed me and said that mainstreet wanted more documents from me. I didn't check the email and rarely think about it. In the past when I have had contact with max it was by pm here. Evidentally there is some issue of getting email from this site if you use yahoo mail, which I do.
I have been a member there for about 5 years (I guess I have been in this syndicate for a long time, huh?) So they had my old email address and phone numbers from that time. I can give a casino any piece of documentation they want and I have NO PROBLEMS doing it nor have I ever had a problem doing it. To state otherwise is jumping to conclusions wrongly. Ask Nicolas Johnson. My documents were not a problem and were turned in immediately upon being a player and approved.

Please stop saying I have an issue with turning in my docs. Its just plain not true nor has it ever been. Though only issue I have had is communication through circumstantial evidence.

FFS.

...AND is SO aggrieved at being ripped off by the casino for no reason that they WON'T FILE A PAB ( If that isn't a red flag for anyone with an ounce of common sense then I don't know what is)

.

I have not filed a PAB yet because Nicolas stated several posts back that he would look into my account and if I didn't break any rules he would take care of this. I have bumped that post a few times and he has not yet responded. That is the proper course of action according to the pab process.

Again, for summary of what has already been posted here, I will not add any new info

-I have my play history.

-I at first had my money confiscated and accused of breaking the 50% rule. I had my play history and proved otherwise. I still have those emails for proof.

-I got a partial payment in February to QT of only an eighth of what is owed to me. This was from a cashout in November.

-a week later I had the rest of my money confiscated and told I broke the 50% rule. Again, I had to prove I didn't.

-They immediately then accused me of being a professional player and playing at too many casinos to just be doing it for fun

-Then on this very thread, Nicolas accused me of betting really large then grinding on small bets as a way to abuse the casino. Again, since I have my play history, I proved that to be NOT TRUE. MISINFORMATION. You can go back and read the post it is plain as day that it is just not true.

After I made that post is when Nicolas said he would go back and if that were true (it is and I can post my play history if need be) that he would fix my account.

- Since that post he has then made the claim that I am part of a syndicate.

So he has tried to make several claims. Which is it? None of the above.

and one more thing that is in these threads that should be clear. The other poster that only made one post is saying they played at Bet phonix a full 5 months before I did. Yeah, a syndicate.

 

[brucake]

I have sent a private message to N. Johnson. I have had payment delay for a month. I will report progress here.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Nicolas, the more I read on this post the less I trust what you are saying. There are so many issues that I am having with this. You asked me what was not logical.

Let's start by asking you what friend of mine was found to be breaking any rules? You have repeatedly talked as if I had a friend who was caught breaking your rules. That is not the case at all and I don't know where you are getting that notion. This thread says nothing of that.
I do have a friend whom I am hoping joins this forum that has been waiting on a withdrawal for over a month. I do not have a friend who you are accusing of breaking rules. Although it appears as though that may be your next step in attempting to not pay them.

If she has not broken any rules, we will pay her. Even if she has broken a rule or two and is a regular player, we will likely let it go. We would be insane to want to discourage regular play.

What seems totally wrong to me is that you are claiming these players were getting stalled and delayed because they were rule breakers. The only problem with that is that for one thing, you accused them of rules being broken that they could prove they did not. So you falsely accused them then. For another thing if you thought they were breakers of rules then you would NOT HAVE PAID THEM AT ALL. I do not believe that you thought they were rule breakers. Apparently you even gave them a small payment 2 days prior to coming up with this story. So until that point you obviously believed them to be legitimate players and you were delaying them and giving them partial payments. You were apparently doing this for months and months. Now if you believe them to be frauds then did you get their documents? You must have if you paid them. If this is not the truth then please spell it out for us. The posters who made those claims gave exact dates. It is not honest to claim they were not getting paid because of rules violations. You were simply slow paying them is what all the evidence points to.

Internally there was much debate over this case. Some people caught on to it, others were fooled. Over time however, it is easier to detect. Fraud isn't always easy to spot, and we don't want to harm innocent players. Could we have handled it better? Yes. But we are now certain of our stance, we have solid reasons for it.

Lets next move to your constant syndicate claim. The posters could be lying of course but you have not given any indication that they are in regards to their play and deposit history. They are claiming to have wagered many times at your casino. One of them is claiming to have played away winnings several times and even kept playing after wagering requirements at £300 per hand. This does NOT sound like the work of a gambling syndicate. This 50% of balance rule keeps coming up. Are you saying that they are abusive because your rules state to not bet more than 50% of their balance........ and they followed that rule? So they followed your rule and that is abusive?

Advantage players will always do and say things in a way to appear normal. If it is all as clear cut as they want it to be, then surely a mediation channel of their choice will side with them. The mediation channel will have access to all necessary records, and will be able to make an informed decision on the case. If the player is just trying to pressure us through public shame, then they will not choose to persue it.

Regarding the 50% rule, some of the syndicate players broke it. Others didn't. They all broke rules though.

I don't know what in my post would make you think I'm accusing them of not breaking our rules. I'm sorry if I wasn't as clear as I should have.

It is things like this that is making it hard to take your claims seriously. Along with the fact that my acquaintance has been delayed in her payment as well so I see it happening even as you say it is being fixed.

Can you please let me know of your aquaintance? Maybe there is more to it? I'll be glad to look into it.

Now with all of my doubts being said I do think that you are being good to stay in this thread. I do think you are good to offer to take PMs to help a player. I am sure everyone appreciates that. However, you should not be forced to constantly do this because your casino is not run properly. I am surprised that with your demeanor you would not be more happy working with an accredited casino or one a little more upstanding. It is extremely difficult not to like you. I just wish that you would be representing a reputable casino and not bet phoenix. That relationship is bringing you down.

Thanks for the kind words. I know we have had issues. I never dennied it. Whenever a true issue comes up, I'll be the first to accept it. But... I know the vision the owners had for this place, I know what the adversities this company has gone through; our CEO and one of our senior managers died, we have launched in a time where there has been more processor confiscations than any other time I know of, not to mention hardware issues, DDOS attacks, having to change a lot of our staff abruptly, etc. I'm confident that we have weathered the worst and are now approaching calmer waters.

The fact that we have done as well as we have given all the circumstances makes me feel kinda proud. I do know we can improve, and I'm sure we will. The owner and senior managers understand the importance of 24 hour payouts, quality service and competitive promotions.

If I felt there wasn't good reason for changes to not have been faster, I would not be here. But if the vision is good, and these are just temporary issues, I'd have to be a rat to jump ship the second the storm comes.

And... I totally understand player's feeling. Each person has every right to weight the circumstances and choose whether the risk/reward we offer is something that is in their interest.

I understand those players who choose to stand on the sidelines right now. I'm not looking to win people over with a few short words, but to keep a track record of improving gambling companies long term in an honest, player-input based way.

And What exactly would either of you gentlemen like me to file a PAB about?

I am beginning to think that details are often overlooked by some when reading other people's posts on this forum.

You can also find some of my postings here if that helps

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/instant-payments.42548/

Sorry if I overlooked details.

Like you've just done here for instance? I said nothing about thinking there should be a PAB, I only said that there wasn't one.



We've handled cases here at Casinomeister related to this syndicate stuff and in the course of those investigations we've seen (some of) the evidence the casino has against these players. It is more than sufficient to support the syndicate accusations.

As I'm sure you know the casino is under no obligation to present this evidence here since (a) this is a public forum and the information they have isn't appropriate for public display and (b) to do so would very likely reveal more to the syndicate members than would be wise for the casino in terms of their fraud investigation procedures. And let's not forget that it's always the fraudsters who say they trust no one but they really want the casino to show their hand and tell them what they've got. Of course they want to know because they want to know how much the casino knows, and how they got caught. That stuff is private casino info and I'm sure you know that.

There was syndicate fraud from these guys in Philly, there probably still is, and who is or isn't part of that is a work in progress. Take it or leave it but there it is.

Thank you. To give players an idea of how relentless and bold syndicate members are, here is a post from a sports betting forum where they are talking about their activities:

Durito I know you work at a book or have morals or whatever but I work every angle sir. No one can win consistently at gambling you need every advantage you can get. Why would I not double and triple on bonuses. Why would I not have internet cards from Cricket - sprint - verizon. Why would I not use proxy IP addresses. Why would I not have scanned ID's of 10 people. It's all fair in warfare and anyone that can't understand that is a square.

I'll share the link to that post with Max. I'm not posting the link directly since I don't want to break forum rules.

Thanks for the reply Nicolas .

I must say it does always raise alarm bells when I hear the 'syndicate' accusation. Like if they really were an online syndicate why on earth would they all register from Pennsylvania? That would be crazy!

It isn't always really a syndicate per say. most of the time it is just a ring leader with people he gets to use their ID in exchange for a cut. The less high tech ones recruit in the same area they live in. Hence, all the 'ids' and IPs are all within a 100 mile radios.

If it really was a syndicate they would a) be all over the USA/world, b) stagger their registrations and c) mix up their play.

There are smarter syndicates than this one, I admit. But we make it tough to fool us.

The reality of it is that this is most likely a group of young people probably at college and one of them has come up with a certain plan and passed it to his mates who joined in. Whether they did it as individuals or pooled winnings is anyone's guess and impossible to prove. They may be chancers/opportunists as much as a syndicate.

You are describing a different kind of activity than what just happened.

I guess a lot of it comes down to the method they used and was it a blatant cheat/software manipulation or something of that nature? I think it is the gameplay and methods used that would flag them as a syndicate rather than physical location.

One thing that worries me about all this is you say these players broke multiple rules but then you appear to contradict yourself saying to VWM that you have just drawn up a new set of rules!!!

We slightly changed our rules to make it even harder on these people. They broke the old rules, we aren't retro-actively applying rules, there has been no accusations of that even.

Why would you need to do that? It seems to imply the players had not broken the first set of rules and that it was the rules themselves that were at fault.

Our rules were not tough enough. We want to keep a balance between giving freedom to recreational players, and avoiding getting beat by advantage players/frauds.

How many players is it roughly and how much money are we talking about here? If it's under 10 players and like $20K then wouldn't it be better to pay up and close the accounts? I mean you guys have the US market all to yourselves you have this fantastic opportunity so I imagine you must be doing very well. In a viral marketing way it's also good publicity for you if the players do get away with a big play once in a while.

It's great when recreational, normal players win. We love it. When I see a good player win, I'm always happy since I know what the odds are of a good player coming back after a big win, and the odds of a good player coming back after a bad loss. Since it is random I can't control it, but I truly wish good players win.

Advantage players if they win, we aren't too happy about it, but we just take it as a lesson.

Fraud, we have to be tough up. We'd rather spend $1000's ensuring we don't have to pay them, than give in to a $100 fraud payment. Every dollar you give a fraud ensure's they have more power the next time they come round.

Please understand I am not for one moment condoning practises like cheating. I must admit your post does sound like you are certain that is the case. But then it worries me you introduced a rule change AFTER these guys won.

The rule change was a small one, it wasn't applied retro-actively, and the sole purpose is to make sure we can give good deals to good players, while not losing money to non-recreational players.

I am still not comfortable you have accused these players of fraud in public like this before the PAB/Hastings process has even happened. I think you should look carefully at your legal position as to all this or you could end up paying substantial damages to all these players if the accusations can't be proven.

You seem pretty angry about this and these players may well have cheated you but if you make these kind of public accusations you have got to be 100% right on it.

No, I don't have to be right. I have to have sufficient motive to take the stance I take.

Take a theoretical example:

If I find someone I don't know in my house, and who I didn't let in, I have REASON to believe they are in it to steal from me.

This person may then say that he was running from someone who was trying to kill him and just happened to jump in my back yard to ensure survival.

Now... if I accuse that person of breaking into my house to steal, I have a valid reason to do so. The courts will then determine if I was right in my accusation, or if I had an alternate motive to make my accusation (he is my wife's lover)

I want things to go to court since I have all the evidence I need to make this a closed case.

I have been swept up in some of this stuff. I have absolute certainty that the casinos are throwing a big blanket on a situation and including innocent players. Which ones are innocent? I don't know. I do know that I am yet I have been locked out of mainstreet and Lock and cleopatras and virtual.

I think the big thing that is being overlooked is that other than 3dice, most USA players are going to pick a RTG casino(s) and play them. I am pretty sure that I have played every RTG available to me. Well so do most other Online gamblers from America I'm sure. Would that mean we are all a syndicate? I'm also not young. I'm mid 40's in age. I did not get kicked out of BP casino. I wonder if I had won then maybe I would have. This all leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I know what it feels like to be wrongly accused. It has happened to me several times now and at least some are big enough to apologize for it.

Did you get funds witheld or just accounts shut down? The level of certanty a casino needs to witheld funds is way different than that which they need to just shut an account down.

I also must say that when I look at BP's T&C of their bonuses. I know how I would play it. I'm guessing a bunch of players would attack it similarly to give themselves a chance to win. If we all did would we be considered a syndicate?

No. It takes more than that.

I believe that if any player that is accused of this activity can supply all of the documentation that RTG demands (Picture ID, fax back form, bank stmt, ewallet screenshots, utility bill... etal) then how could they be fraudulent? It seems Cabrair32 cannot supply these documents. So then it is likely that he may be acting fraudulently. But what if a player accused of being a fraud actually can supply all of the documents to show that he is not a fraud? Playing style and having a "game plan" for beating a casino while following the rules is NOT FRAUDULENT by any stretch and to consider it so is ridiculous. Just like Bryans last "spirit of the bonus" video. Of course players want to win.

We have other verification methods that you may be forced to comply with. It isn't anything a normal player would have to worry about (and likely they don't even know is how that goes/that these alternat verification methods even exist)

Also, it bothers me that it is possible that if you are labled a fraud by a casino does that mean that if it ever happens again that the casino will likely be believed based on prior accusations?

Well what do you expect? I'm sorry for saying it that way, but I'm not sure what else to say. In any system, your prior activities are weighned in when considering your current activities.

If you have a history of declaring bankrupcy, should banks not take this into consideration when given you a loan? If you have a history of robbery, and are accused of it again, should the judge not take this into consideration?

Sure, it is unfair in a way. Maybe these people had changed their ways and will get innocently hurt based on their past activity. But wouldn't it be equally unfair to the other responsible lenders of the bank who will have to pay higher interest rates if the bank gives out high risk loans?

Wouldn't it be unfair that a thug that broke into my house gets away scott free because I didn't have enough evidence to prove his bad deed, even though he has a history of 10 convictions for burglary and I have a clean sheet?

Fact is, life ain't perfect, we have to find the best system we can with what we got.

Like I mentioned, American players are limited basically to RTG for the most part. AND ONLY RTG is using this fraud complaint or "syndicate" complaint to keep money.

bottom line should be that if a player has not broken a term. Not played a disallowed game and can provide all documentation asked to prove his/her Identity then there should not be any way to charge the player and keep his money. It should not matter if others have played the same way. If they can provide all the necessary proof that they are indeed who they claim and are of age then there should be no problem. Was it a syndicate at betfair when they kept everyone's money? NO, it was just obvious how to win on the terms provided. I imagine most players did the smart thing and won.

Listen, you keep hinting at things I can't reveal. I'm not going to say how we caught them, but I gave a few pieces of information that makes it 99.99% likely it is fraud. The other percentage of proof I can provide to Max or Brian... if the players choose to PAB instead of try to blackmail us through slander and try to scare innocent square players who can't even imagine how these guys operate. Basically, you are being used.

The very fact that you had the unfortunate incident of being falsely accused is the fault of Syndicates. To quote dominique, who I have a lot of respect for (this is from a totally different thread, though applies here):

Fraudulent player syndicates hurt everyone, but most of all they hurt other players.

Because of them innocent players get caught in the net when the necessary house cleaning takes place.

Because of them we have ridiculous wagering requirements.

Because of them we have T&Cs that take a lawyer to be understood, singling out this game, that game and the other and attaching special requirements to it.

Fraud syndicates need to be outed - for the player's sake if nothing else. It is unfortunate if the investigation gets messy, so now we need to sift through it and clean it up.

Pitch your PABs.

I'm sure if we didn't pay you greasemonkey, you would PAB instantly. Now think why haven't these players done that.

This is what concerns me.

What is it that makes a group of players a "syndicate" in the eyes of the casino?

This is a vague term, and seems to be applied when too many players WIN. What about all these "bonus beater" forums out there, where the webmasters and members collude by discussing a particular promotion, and the best way to profit from it - and then go along en-masse to do it. This seems to look like a "syndicate", yet all these players are doing is pooling INFORMATION, in other words, using the internet for it's intended purpose.

What about someone who produces and sells a "bonus beater's handbook" on eBay; are all players who buy and use it members of a syndicate run by the author of the book?

It seems that any player who has found some kind of "perfect strategy" on the internet, and employs it WITHOUT breaking any specific rules can STILL face the accusation of being in a syndicate because more than a given threshold of other players have also used this SAME "perfect strategy", perhaps having found it in the same way.

All of us here at CM "collude" to some extent, since promotions, and how to win at them, are often discussed.

It is all very well claiming that players DID break the rules, but if the rules are vague, whether they are broken is only a matter of opinion, rather than fact.

We have ways to distinguish this. And as max explained, and I'm sure you know, there are reasons we can't divolge what we do and how we do it to the general public.

Take the 50% rule. IF a player bets 49% to start with, gets ahead, and then switches to the smallest "grind" possible to make WR and preserve the profit, this may well be considered "abusive", but only in the sense of "in the spirit of". However advantageous and "abusive" the tactic, at the time it did NOT break the rules.

I'm sorry, but, why do you keep arguing about 'ifs' which were never mentioned? You keep bringing up 'spirit of the bonus rule', which ONLY you and a few posters who have no dog in this fight have brought up. The original complaints don't mention them, I don't mention them, I even made it clear on mutliple occations that players broke SPECIFIC rules. Not spirit of the bonus rules.

I mean, I could argue all day about how life would be if my grandmother was male and catholic she could be the pope, but that isn't the case. So why keep going over these imaginary situations? This just distracts from the REAL topics at hand being discussed.

Sorry for sounding harsh, but if you repeat something enoguh people will start to believe it is true.

If these players are using their own ID at registration, and can supply all the necessary documentation to prove it, neither are they breaking THAT rule (the one about having to supply genuine details).

If they use their OWN money, and can demonstrate ownership of the source account, they are NOT breaking the rule of only playing with their own money.

Whilst it seems odd that a syndicate would play anything other than "perfect strategy", it is actually the case that they WOULD, as this provides "cover play" to disguise what they are doing, making it harder to detect. The same concept is used by magicians in order to divert attention to the mechanics of the trick they are doing (such as getting the audience to look up whilst they pull the extra card from their sleeve), so that the audience thinks it really is "magic".

What we lack is clear guidance of where the dividing line lies between a community of like minded players sharing information, and a syndicate.

You will not get this fine line, as that is trade secret. We trust a select host of 3rd party resolution centers where we will show our hand, and our secrets and the other party can show theirs, and the resolution center can then determine who is right.

If we did what you are asking, we would be destroyed by fraud. And it would only hurt normal players even more than syndicates are already hurting normal players who occationally get caught up in investigations.

It seems it hasn't been made perfectly clear here yet but the info on this "syndicate" was about organized fraud, not just the discovery of a wee group of pals having an innocent go at a casino bonus.

When "friends" collude to commit fraud and an organized assault on a casino or group of casinos then that "syndicate" very much is the concern of the casino, and us for that matter. One can always imagine scenarios of innocence but such efforts are misplaced here and in this case.

Thank you again.

So, the dividing line is where the players turn to misrepresentation in order to get more than they would otherwise be entitled to, such as using multiple accounts, and playing on accounts other than their own.

The dividing line is where they break our rules and we can prove it. How we prove it, is between us and the resolution center (be it which it may be)

Players who simply share information, but play on their own account, and with their own funds, have nothing to worry about?

In general yes, nothing to worry about. Of course, anyone can at any time be falsely accused of something. This applies to the online casino world as well as the physical real world.

What about players who BORROW money in order to make larger deposits, and thus utilise larger bonuses?

I strongly don't suggest it, but there is nothing in our rules againts this. Basically ead our rules, if you don't break them, you are fine.

I'm no fan of BetPhoenix as some of you will know, however what I am going to post really doesn't have anything to do with them except in a general way.

Someone explain to me how you can run a syndicate to cheat a casino and really expect to not be caught. You have to send in ID, money info., and lots of other personal stuff to play. All have to be in your name and be able to be verified. Can't use the same IP address so you can't be in the same house using a WiFi connection.

So what would be the point in trying to do this? I guess I am dense but I just don't get it.

To make money. They don't play as a hobby, but as profession. Look at my post above where I quote one of those players 'braging' about how smart they

Some years ago here in Texas, there were several gambling rooms busted by the police. The people were actually playing on a computer, looked like RTG or MG games to me. How would they be able to do this and not be called a syndicate? This was back before WiFi etc, when you had to use a landline for computer connection.

This just makes no sense to me.

I've had affiliates approach me asking if they can set something like this up with us. I always say no. Some casinos will say yes.


@ Everyone, if you have a hard time believing syndicates exist, here is a post that might enlighten you:

Durito I know you work at a book or have morals or whatever but I work every angle sir. No one can win consistently at gambling you need every advantage you can get. Why would I not double and triple on bonuses. Why would I not have internet cards from Cricket - sprint - verizon. Why would I not use proxy IP addresses. Why would I not have scanned ID's of 10 people. It's all fair in warfare and anyone that can't understand that is a square.

I'm not including the link of where this was posted because I don't want to break rules, but I'm sure there are those among you who can verify this was actually posted by a player on a forum.

Remember, every dollar they extract from us, is a dollar that we CAN'T give back to good players who deserve nice things (comps, free chips, bonuses, gifts, sweepstakes, etc)

@ brucake
I'll check your account now

@ Cabrair32
Sorry, but you are part of the syndicate. If you want any form of resolution, please PAB.


I think I covered it all.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[vinylweatherman]

I don't see anything wrong with being a "professional player", and many poker players ARE "professional".

A professional player simply plays to win, and whether casino or poker, will play a tight game.

This is different:-

Durito I know you work at a book or have morals or whatever but I work every angle sir. No one can win consistently at gambling you need every advantage you can get. Why would I not double and triple on bonuses. Why would I not have internet cards from Cricket - sprint - verizon. Why would I not use proxy IP addresses. Why would I not have scanned ID's of 10 people. It's all fair in warfare and anyone that can't understand that is a square.

That's fraud, and using proxies and different internet cards is designed to disguise this. This is not just being a "professional player", but is more the "professional fraudster", like a poker player that decides his own skills are not enough, so cheats by using bots, or malware to peek at the hole cards of other players.

I am not sure "syndicate" is the best way to describe this activity, as it can be confusing given that there are many lottery syndicates, but this is perfectly OK with the state/government lotteries.

This seems more about multi-accounting, and using "rented" sets of ID in order to carry this out.

It doesn't help that some casinos MISUSE the "fraud" accusation in order to void bets of perfectly legitimate players who just happen to have won too much, which results in a level of mistrust among players when casinos say they have been hit by a "fraud syndicate".

The other problem is that when there is a major "bust" of a syndicate of fraudsters, the innocent players caught up in it seem to have too much trouble getting a fair hearing, and often have to resort to third parties, some more effective than others.

For RTG, CDS is about as useful as a chocolate teapot, and they have a broken website that currently blocks anyone from following up on a complaint, and they seem rather laid back about this fault, which leads some to believe it to be deliberate.

RTG casinos tend to operate from Costa Rica, where there is no proper government regulation, and no gambling license needed, merely a bog-standard company license that fails to offer the special levels of protection for players that is needed when such large sums of money are involved.

RTG casinos are not trusted very much, unless they have a long track record, and have gained accreditation by a respected body, such as Casinomeister.

 

[Nifty29]

Cabrair.

Stop dicking around and coming up with reasons NOT to PAB.

Nicolas has obviously looked at your account and found you ARE part of this syndicate so quit with the ' im waiting for him to get back to me' garbage.

Nicolas had made it clear that the ONLY way to resolve your complaint is via PAB.

I know what an INNOCENT player would do - or should I say have ALREADY done.

I also know what a GUILTY player does - they try to play the whole thing out in public by conning the members here, many of which are prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. These scumbags will abuse the goodwill of these members and try to turn them against the casino by only posting VERY selective tidbits of information that paint them as the victim.

So, to which category do YOU and your buddies belong?

If I owned this site I would give you two choices:

1. File a PAB.

2. Pack your bags and get lost.

IMO it is completely unfair to continue to take shots at BP and Nicolas whilst denying them the opportunity to put their evidence on the table via an independent arbiter.

 

[anniemac]

Nicholas,
,
After reading your 'Durito' post, I think I finally get it. My idea of a syndicate was people actually working together, like me at my machine and Joe at his etc., all playing the same casino. LOL! I didn't realize to what lengths the people will go to cheat. I get it now.

I'm going to second what Nifty said. You got to either put up or shut up. It is up to you to prove yourself right.

 

[greasemonkey]

Quote Originally Posted by greasemonkey View Post
I have been swept up in some of this stuff. I have absolute certainty that the casinos are throwing a big blanket on a situation and including innocent players. Which ones are innocent? I don't know. I do know that I am yet I have been locked out of mainstreet and Lock and cleopatras and virtual.

I think the big thing that is being overlooked is that other than 3dice, most USA players are going to pick a RTG casino(s) and play them. I am pretty sure that I have played every RTG available to me. Well so do most other Online gamblers from America I'm sure. Would that mean we are all a syndicate? I'm also not young. I'm mid 40's in age. I did not get kicked out of BP casino. I wonder if I had won then maybe I would have. This all leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I know what it feels like to be wrongly accused. It has happened to me several times now and at least some are big enough to apologize for it.
Did you get funds witheld or just accounts shut down? The level of certanty a casino needs to witheld funds is way different than that which they need to just shut an account down.

No, I didn't get any funds siezed during any of this. Just my account deactivated permanently.

Quote Originally Posted by greasemonkey View Post
I believe that if any player that is accused of this activity can supply all of the documentation that RTG demands (Picture ID, fax back form, bank stmt, ewallet screenshots, utility bill... etal) then how could they be fraudulent? It seems Cabrair32 cannot supply these documents. So then it is likely that he may be acting fraudulently. But what if a player accused of being a fraud actually can supply all of the documents to show that he is not a fraud? Playing style and having a "game plan" for beating a casino while following the rules is NOT FRAUDULENT by any stretch and to consider it so is ridiculous. Just like Bryans last "spirit of the bonus" video. Of course players want to win.
We have other verification methods that you may be forced to comply with. It isn't anything a normal player would have to worry about (and likely they don't even know is how that goes/that these alternat verification methods even exist)

Wouldn't it be easiest then to just force these verification methods on your accusers? If they can pass them all then they would not be fraudulent, correct? If they cannot pass them then you have them nailed. No more accusations or guess work involved it would seem.

Quote Originally Posted by greasemonkey View Post
Also, it bothers me that it is possible that if you are labled a fraud by a casino does that mean that if it ever happens again that the casino will likely be believed based on prior accusations?
Well what do you expect? I'm sorry for saying it that way, but I'm not sure what else to say. In any system, your prior activities are weighned in when considering your current activities.

If you have a history of declaring bankrupcy, should banks not take this into consideration when given you a loan? If you have a history of robbery, and are accused of it again, should the judge not take this into consideration?

Sure, it is unfair in a way. Maybe these people had changed their ways and will get innocently hurt based on their past activity. But wouldn't it be equally unfair to the other responsible lenders of the bank who will have to pay higher interest rates if the bank gives out high risk loans?

Wouldn't it be unfair that a thug that broke into my house gets away scott free because I didn't have enough evidence to prove his bad deed, even though he has a history of 10 convictions for burglary and I have a clean sheet?

Fact is, life ain't perfect, we have to find the best system we can with what we got.

I said labeled. For example, you have been labeled to be giving a bit of misinformation in this thread. On your next thread then should we all assume that you must be giving bad information since you were labeled as such in this thread? And every thread after that should we just assume that you are lying since you were labeled to be doing that here? That is the point.


For Nicolas and Nifty:

One thing that doesn't look very fair in this whole debacle is that you keep asking them to file a complaint with the pab process or with CDS. You obviously know that CDS is a joke and is ineffective. They are a paper doll. They are worthless. The site doesnt even allow for responses. You know that.
You also know that Bryan and Max have already told the posters that they are guilty and I assume this is prior to seeing any evidence in this particular case other than what has been posted here. At one point it looked as if Bryan was daring one of the posters to file, whilst calling him a fraud...So of course Nicolas wants them to file a pab and have that be the final word on it all. It seems a bit disingenuous to me.

and the last question for nicolas; is this all true?

.......... I had sent in all of my documents AND HAD THEM APPROVED by bet phonix. .... Ask Nicolas Johnson. My documents were not a problem and were turned in immediately upon being a player and approved...........





...............

-I have my play history.

-I at first had my money confiscated and accused of breaking the 50% rule. I had my play history and proved otherwise. I still have those emails for proof.

-I got a partial payment in February to QT of only an eighth of what is owed to me. This was from a cashout in November.

-a week later I had the rest of my money confiscated and told I broke the 50% rule. Again, I had to prove I didn't.

-They immediately then accused me of being a professional player and playing at too many casinos to just be doing it for fun

-Then on this very thread, Nicolas accused me of betting really large then grinding on small bets as a way to abuse the casino. Again, since I have my play history, I proved that to be NOT TRUE. MISINFORMATION. You can go back and read the post it is plain as day that it is just not true.

After I made that post is when Nicolas said he would go back and if that were true (it is and I can post my play history if need be) that he would fix my account.

- Since that post he has then made the claim that I am part of a syndicate.

So he has tried to make several claims. Which is it? None of the above.

and one more thing that is in these threads that should be clear. The other poster that only made one post is saying they played at Bet phonix a full 5 months before I did. Yeah, a syndicate.

If so, then it raises way more questions than have been answered.

 

[anniemac]

Greasemonkey,

No love lost between me and BP. My account with them has been permanently closed since last summer by mutual consent. I was called a 'negative value player' and it really pissed me off so I know from where I speak.

But if these persons that have a legitimate gripe, or perceive so, they need to PAB here and trust that Bryan and Maxd are unbiased as they say they are or don't try their case here in this forum because it will do no good.

There are other player advocate sites if they believe that Bryan and Maxd are already biased.

 

[Nifty29]

If someone doesn't believe that the people who run this site are capable objectively assessing any and all evidence presented to them, they ARE questioning their integrity. One can try and spin it as something else, but it is EXACTLY that - an personal attack on Max and Bryans character.

I don't understand why anyone who thought like that would even want to BE here. I mean, they are obviously in the pockets of the casinos right? The 'advocate of fairness' thing is just a ruse to suck in unwary players so the casinos can rip them off yeah?

It's especially galling that someone who had been assisted personally in clearing their name by these same people in the past would NOW come forward and sink the boots in. Now how's that for gratitude? Of course, they must have helped you back BEFORE they were in bed with the casinos I.e. when they used to give fair hearings etc. I guess you were just lucky huh?

IMO its very poor form to start questioning CMs impartiality for the sake of some joker that just walked in the door and who refuses to follow every possible path to resolution.

Making ill-considered comments about bias is playing right into these bozo's hands by providing yet ANOTHER excuse not to submit a PAB.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I don't see anything wrong with being a "professional player", and many poker players ARE "professional".

A professional player simply plays to win, and whether casino or poker, will play a tight game.

This is different:-



That's fraud, and using proxies and different internet cards is designed to disguise this. This is not just being a "professional player", but is more the "professional fraudster", like a poker player that decides his own skills are not enough, so cheats by using bots, or malware to peek at the hole cards of other players.

I am not sure "syndicate" is the best way to describe this activity, as it can be confusing given that there are many lottery syndicates, but this is perfectly OK with the state/government lotteries.

This seems more about multi-accounting, and using "rented" sets of ID in order to carry this out.

It doesn't help that some casinos MISUSE the "fraud" accusation in order to void bets of perfectly legitimate players who just happen to have won too much, which results in a level of mistrust among players when casinos say they have been hit by a "fraud syndicate".

The other problem is that when there is a major "bust" of a syndicate of fraudsters, the innocent players caught up in it seem to have too much trouble getting a fair hearing, and often have to resort to third parties, some more effective than others.

For RTG, CDS is about as useful as a chocolate teapot, and they have a broken website that currently blocks anyone from following up on a complaint, and they seem rather laid back about this fault, which leads some to believe it to be deliberate.

RTG casinos tend to operate from Costa Rica, where there is no proper government regulation, and no gambling license needed, merely a bog-standard company license that fails to offer the special levels of protection for players that is needed when such large sums of money are involved.

RTG casinos are not trusted very much, unless they have a long track record, and have gained accreditation by a respected body, such as Casinomeister.

I understand what you are saying, and you have a point. We hope to get a long track record that one day will allow us to earn such prestigious accreditation. :notworthy

No, I didn't get any funds siezed during any of this. Just my account deactivated permanently.

That means they likely had a suspicion that you might have been part of it. If they are sure, you probably would get funds frozen.

Wouldn't it be easiest then to just force these verification methods on your accusers? If they can pass them all then they would not be fraudulent, correct? If they cannot pass them then you have them nailed. No more accusations or guess work involved it would seem.

We are sure of our verdict.

I said labeled. For example, you have been labeled to be giving a bit of misinformation in this thread.

On your next thread then should we all assume that you must be giving bad information since you were labeled as such in this thread? And every thread after that should we just assume that you are lying since you were labeled to be doing that here? That is the point.

Fair enough. But this player who max and Bryan have called out on being part of a syndicate, have seen evidence that he is part of a syndicate.

This is very different from unfounded rumors.

One thing that doesn't look very fair in this whole debacle is that you keep asking them to file a complaint with the pab process or with CDS. You obviously know that CDS is a joke and is ineffective. They are a paper doll. They are worthless. The site doesnt even allow for responses. You know that.
You also know that Bryan and Max have already told the posters that they are guilty and I assume this is prior to seeing any evidence in this particular case other than what has been posted here. At one point it looked as if Bryan was daring one of the posters to file, whilst calling him a fraud...So of course Nicolas wants them to file a pab and have that be the final word on it all. It seems a bit disingenuous to me.

When did I say ONLY PAB or CDS? This is the same as people mentioning 'spirit of the bonus' clause when it wasn't brought up to begin with.

I have said probably dozens of times to the person(people) of the syndicate: File a complain with the mediation channel of your choice. To me PAB and CDS pop to mind as the most 'mainstream'. But there a tons of other mediation channels that these players can pursue. Most forums have some section for this.

I must say though, I don't understand what you are doing posting on this site if you don't trust the site owners/administrators to be honest.

and the last question for nicolas; is this all true?

If so, then it raises way more questions than have been answered.

This is a trick and I will not fall for it. The player is publicly discussing details of his case to engage me in publicly revealing information that is in his interest. It ain't gonna happen. I will reveal it to a trust worthy 3rd party mediator, of the players choice.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[greasemonkey]

uhhh... Nifty and Nicolas. Maybe I made it sound differently then how I meant it since you both came up with me seemingly not trusting Bryan or Max. That is not how I feel at all and did not intend to make it sound that way. I do not ever remember saying that at all but I must have made it seem that way. Please know that is not the case.
What I am saying is that they have likely already made up their mind in this instance. They sure do sound that way in their posts. Here is an example:

Try flaming someone one more time and see what happens.



Well to nip this in the bud, you are part of a syndicate - you are playing with either a group of players or one or two who have multiple accounts, and Max and I have seen the proof for the past several months since your first PAB last summer.

You have casino accounts(s) that have been identified as fraudulent accounts at Lock Casino and Slots Plus - and now Bet Phoenix. The more you PAB the more info we have on you and your playmates (this would be your third), so please do.

I can only take this to mean that Bryan already is assuming guilt and is double dog daring the poster to file a pab if he is brave enough. Did I miss something in the post? Perhaps I am misreading it. That is how it appears to me.

This doesn't mean that I don't trust Max or Bryan. To suggest otherwise baffles me.

I also don't think they are perfect and I think they could be mislead by a casino. I saw it happen and I was involved. Now how could I NOT trust them? Bryan got to the bottom of it and came up with the correct information eventually but he did take the casinos word for it initially. Was he trustworthy in his actions? YES. Was he perfect in his methods or thoughts? NO.

I'm my own man. I'm not going to blindly swear allegiance to anybody nor trust anybody 100%. Neither should you. That isn't to say I have any reason to doubt these guys because I don't. All I have is the posts here and the way I read them, the way I read the responses. At this point I am not sold that these players are frauds. I am entitled to my opinion and I do know that casinos will lock accounts with wrong information. I know it for a fact.

I think if this were to be brought in front of a judge and jury that the players would win the arguement. Especially because of all the angles to slow pay the players then coming up with fraud as a last resort. The contradictions of it all.... I am not saying the players are innocent. I am just saying that what we have access to information wise on this thread points to casino abuse of players.

 

[greasemonkey]

It's especially galling that someone who had been assisted personally in clearing their name by these same people in the past would NOW come forward and sink the boots in. Now how's that for gratitude? Of course, they must have helped you back BEFORE they were in bed with the casinos I.e. when they used to give fair hearings etc. I guess you were just lucky huh?

They personally assisted me in clearing my name from whom exactly? My name needed clearing from them in the first place. Granted they realized their mistake and were big enough to clear it up, yes.

What exactly are you posting about?

I know that you take great strides in protecting the honor of these men. They don't need it. They are plenty honorable and we all know it. When you get down off of your soap box perhaps you will realize that I never questioned that.

IMO its very poor form to start questioning CMs impartiality for the sake of some joker that just walked in the door and who refuses to follow every possible path to resolution.

.

Where did I do this? I just think they have already made up their mind on this subject. That doesnt meant that they were not orginally impartial. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

 

[greasemonkey]

Greasemonkey,

No love lost between me and BP. My account with them has been permanently closed since last summer by mutual consent. I was called a 'negative value player' and it really pissed me off so I know from where I speak.

But if these persons that have a legitimate gripe, or perceive so, they need to PAB here and trust that Bryan and Maxd are unbiased as they say they are or don't try their case here in this forum because it will do no good.

There are other player advocate sites if they believe that Bryan and Maxd are already biased.

I agree, anniemac, that they should definitely be filing a complaint somewhere. The people who are being called frauds really need a separate thread or something as they are probably taking away from the others with gripes about BP. It's not fair to take away from what others may be trying to say here. Or take away from having Nicolas help them get paid, etc.
I know there are other sites that have 3rd party. Really, though, are any as effective as this site? Probably not.

 

[Nifty29]

They personally assisted me in clearing my name from whom exactly? My name needed clearing from them in the first place. Granted they realized their mistake and were big enough to clear it up, yes.

What exactly are you posting about?

I know that you take great strides in protecting the honor of these men. They don't need it. They are plenty honorable and we all know it. When you get down off of your soap box perhaps you will realize that I never questioned that.



Where did I do this? I just think they have already made up their mind on this subject. That doesnt meant that they were not orginally impartial. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Nup. Sorry.

You said "they have already made up their minds" IN SPITE of the fact that they have INVITED all players involved to SUBMIT A PAB. I don't NEED to put words in your mouth - just implying that, let alone SAYING it, suggests that they have been conducting some kind of kangaroo court and they only want the players to PAB to make it look 'legit'.....and THAT is most definitely questioning their integrity. Don't serve up diarrhoea and try to convince everyone its gravy.

You say " we all know they are plenty honorable" ....well obviously YOU don't or you wouldn't have even ENTERTAINED the idea that the outcome of any PAB on this matter had been predetermined.

Its also interesting that one of cabrairs first posts was in that thread you started about Aladdins gold last July , and you are defending them here. Must just be a Pennsylvanian "let's stick together" thing.

Well, as you say cabrair and FRIENDS may as well pack it in and go elsewhere, now that the new CM policy of "guilty regardless of anything the player might submit" is in effect.


I think they most likely ARE scumbag fraudsters, and THAT is the reason they won't PAB. It's got nothing to do with any kind of 'bias' that those in la-la-land are seeing.

 

[gaydave]

......

 

[jetset]

We seem to be going round and round the mulberry bush here in an increasingly abrasive fashion, and it's a long albeit interesting read, but....has Cabrair32 submitted a PAB yet?

The casino rep says he's looked into the issue again and is sure of his ground - he's even urged Cabrair to fill in a dispute.

Update me please - has Cabrair32 PAB'd??

 

[maxd]

Update me please - has Cabrair32 PAB'd??

Regarding BetPhoenix? No. Nor have any of the others. Last PAB on BP was many moons ago.

 

[chuchu59]

just a thought. 32 and 64. they form part of a sequence. hopefully thy aren tpart of a syndicate.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Hi,

I'm going to answer everyone's comments.

First, I'm going to expose something that has happened, and may answer a point that several people have mentioned, which basically relates to the legal concept of statute of limitations.

We had a syndicate from Pennsylvania hit us. There were around a half a dozen players from within a 100 mile radios in Pennsylvania. They all were the same age (+/- 1 year). They all took the same bonus. Played the same games (they have 3-4 games they like to play and rotate between so as to throw us off). They all bet very large at first, and then grind out the wagering requirements with low bets.

Nicolas if we go right back to the beginning I personally feel you made a rod for your own back by disclosing way too much at the start and then later changing the tone of your allegations. The initial accusation was all about these players taking advantage of your bonus by playing in a certain way. It very much initially read that these players had not broken any rules but had hit big wins by betting in a certain way.

I know you then claimed some rules had broken but it did not help your case that for reasons of confidentiality you were unable to disclose them. But this to me did look like double standards since it was you that disclosed so much about these players in public in the first place.

Then as the thread developed the emphasis changed to it being a case centered around multi accounting and whether it was one or two people behind the six accounts which is something very different from your initial disclosure.

The reason why this case has got posters so exercised (sadly a point not understood by Nifty) is that a couple of years ago a very similiar thing happened at another casino near you. This particular casino played the fraud card and claimed they had been the victim of multiple accounts from someone who had stolen passports from a hotel safe. I may have forgotten some of the details but the case was quite bizarre and turned out to be totally unfounded. And in that instance it took Bryan and Max quite some time to get to the bottom of it as I believe they were badly misled along the way. Before it got sorted out there were a lot of innocent players badly out of pocket as I believe it affected a lot of accounts.

I don't think your initial post did you any favours atall really. If you had just said you had a suspected fraud concerning possible multiple accounts and you were willing to work with Max and Bryan on it then I don't think it would have fanned the flames in the way that it did. I realise you wanted to flush out the accused players by naming Pennsylvania but by only revealing parts of it you opened yourself to all kinds of speculation. Personally I don't think it's atall helpful naming the location as you risk alienating at ton of people from that state and also innocent players from PA will get nervous. I don't really see what PA has got to do with all this really.

I think being so bold and revealing so much in public is a high risk strategy. Posters here have got skeptical and cynical as there have been some bad instances of fraudulant behaviour from casinos too. And by that I don't mean the rogues but big groups like Betfair, a big MG group a few years back and the casino I mentioned above. Luckily the vast majority are fine and very honest but there have been a few very disappointing episodes too. It does cut both ways I'm afraid.

Anyway all this is just my opinion and ofcourse it's up to you how you want to handle these things. I'm not wanting to get involved in the case so much as wanting to look at the process. Just trying to give you a look from a different angle that's all.

 

[Nifty29]

The reason why this case has got posters so exercised (sadly a point not understood by Nifty)

LOL

Nicolas if we go right back to the beginning I personally feel you made a rod for your own back by disclosing way too much at the start and then later changing the tone of your allegations

So one minute he is disclosing too little, and the next minute he is disclosing too much.

The fact is that ALL the facts will NOT be presented in a public forum.

The fact is that the ONLY way to have those facts reviewed by an Independent (depending on which members you listen to) arbiter in Max/Bryan via a PAB

The fact is that those players don't WANT to PAB because once the casino's information is revealed they know the game is up.

I mean, would YOU wait months and months to bring any kind of complaint to light if you were an innocent victim and had your funds confiscated for no reason? Of course you wouldn't, and neither would anyone else who had been so unfairly treated. You should know, given your 3 PABs which I assume you didn't wait months to submit.

a couple of years ago a very similiar thing happened at another casino near you. This particular casino played the fraud card and claimed they had been the victim of multiple accounts from someone who had stolen passports from a hotel safe

I'll defer to Max for a more accurate figure, but I would think that the percentage of PABs where this kind of gross error was made by the casino would be extremely low. Almost miniscule - the exception to the rule in fact. The vast majority of these cases end up with the player being caught out and exposed as the scum that they are....so if you don't mind, I'm going to continue playing the odds when it comes to this kind of issue.

The fraudsters just love it when posters start asking questions that the casino can't answer, as it gives the impression that the 'big bad casino' is just making up reasons not to pay. They also love it when the threads get longer and longer and more people come running to the aid of these hapless victims, fearing that they may well be part of that miniscule % of wrongly accused players. It's also interesting that some people who appear to empathise with the accused players are known advantage players......but I'm sure its just a coincidence.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Max should shut this thread down until such time as a PAB is submitted and resolved. After all, at the end of the day my opinion and everyone else's don't amount to a hill o'beans as we don't possess all the facts. Any doubt I may have had was erased when I read that forum post that Nicolas provided - the prime example of why there are so many issues with bonuses and terms and confiscations these days.