bellerock being akward over ID - locked accs and no payouts.

[furby]

Just wondering why they would make so many of you go through so many hoops, but others just get paid no problem.

I'd like to know as well how I got put into the "let's steal his money and feed him the certified documents bullshit" category. Belle Rock have a duty to explain themselves. It's clear to me from my own experience and reading the other posts on this thread that Belle Rock are behaving with a shocking amount of dishonesty and incompetence.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Really!

They have finally made contact with my solicitor and they've told her they are happy with everything.

Hopefully I can finally get paid!

Well, if they were "happy with everthing", what was the problem then - it seems there really was none, or they would have challenged you solicitor with them to set their minds at rest.
Could it be that they simply backed down because things were getting a little "hot" for them, and had you not gone this far they would never have paid and labeled you a fraudster.
Actually, they already did, as they now admit this was not true, they have committed libel if they have placed any "black mark" against your name with anyone, or on any shared database.
As they have been found wrong in this case, perhaps someone higher up the food chain at Carmen Media should review all these cases before more get as far as lawyers, only to prove BelleRock had no case. How long is this "training" for CS going to take, these troubles started over a year ago.

With regard to allegations of several failed attempts to make contact, check the other thread about the player who was told a check had been couriered, only to be told 2 weeks later that it was never sent at all. Looks like CS are simply reading a PC screen that says something is so, and no-one ever thinks to double check when doubt is raised. I expect attempts to contact the solicitor were logged, but perhaps this never happened, and could even be an employee adding tasks to their timesheets that have not been done so they can skive off on a long lunch (Don't think this does not happen in business, but normally hours claimed are for tasks that are hard to verify, such as being on the phone to a client, reading a document etc.).

 

[wideboy]

Belle Roack are a Disgrace

Having been directed here by a friend of mine i thought i'd best post up my predicament to show that its a relatively widespread occurance.

So about 3 or 4 months ago i made a withdrawal of 57 from Home Casino (Belle Rock). I had deposited 50 and got a bonus of 50, as far as i'm aware i more than completed the wagering requirement on slots but wasnt getting anywhere so i decided to withdraw and try again another day.

Essentially, a month later i realised that i had never recevied the withdrawal, i emailed CS who sent me the standard 'Verify Me' request for information. I sent this off without delay. This was on the 27th March 2006.

I then heard nothing until i emailed again recently and received a reply that i needed to send in certified documents, which included a bank stamp or solicitors stamp.

After some hassle, i managed to get my bank to stamp a recent statement and a copy of my driver's license, which i duly sent in on the 9th June.

I then didnt receive anything back from them until i emailed yestereday asking for a reply to which i received the following email from Belle Rock:

Hi there Philip,

Thank you for emailing Belle Rock Entertainment.

We appreciate you taking the time to supply us with the required documentation. We can confirm that our Processing department has now reviewed these documents.

Thank you for your patience and understanding in this regard.

They have taken the decision to refund the original $250 deposit you made on your Gaming Club Japan account back to your Neteller account. Please allow 3 business days for the funds to reflect in your Neteller account.

With regard to the status of your accounts at Belle Rock Entertainment, we can confirm that it will not be opened due to security concerns. Kindly note that this decision is final and no further correspondence will be entered into regarding this issue.

We trust the information provided is sufficient and we wish you all success with your gaming aspirations.

Should you require any further assistance, feel free to contact us, as we are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for your convenience.

Kind regards,

Mark

Entertainment Executive

So the Gaming Club Japan is a closed matter due to the fact that i made a deposit of 250 then withdrew less than that after some play. If they chose to refund the full amount who am i to argue.

However they have 57 of mine in the Home casino account which they have closed and therefore confiscated the funds. And they're telling me they won't discuss it with me.

This is WRONG!

I will PM the Belle Rock rep and let you know how i get on.

 

[Pinababy69]

I really can't wait until Bryan gets back and looks into this, and I hope that he's able to get some answers that he can share with us. I feel horrible for those of you who have gone to the trouble of "certifying" your documents, only to be told that, essentially, you are a fraud.

I'd have to read the whole thread again, but is everyone that this is happening to from the UK? I remember someone mentioning something about driver's licences there, and thinking that may be the problem? Just curious, of all who have had this problem, have all of you used your driver's licence as a form of ID?

 

[Vesuvio]

I'd have to read the whole thread again, but is everyone that this is happening to from the UK? I remember someone mentioning something about driver's licences there, and thinking that may be the problem? Just curious, of all who have had this problem, have all of you used your driver's licence as a form of ID?

I'm sure it's nothing to do with driver's licences, or ID in general for that matter. I also gave them high-quality scans of my passport and a bank statement. Neteller and perhaps a hundred other casinos and sportsbooks had no problem with them - not to mention the information can easily be independently verified without seeing the documents themselves.

With eCOGRA seemingly in the pocket of Bellerock Casinomeister's return is much anticipated!

re:eCOGRA - for the sake of completeness would someone who's provide certified ID and still been denied funds consider filing a dispute there. As it is eCOGRA's e-mails are worded so that they might just be allowing Bellerock to get away with this on the basis of the certified ID not being provided (we've no way of knowing which t&cs the casino applied). I'm 99% sure they'll still side with the casino and stone wall even when the ID's provided, but it'd be good to have that confirmed.

 

[Pinababy69]

I'm sure it's nothing to do with driver's licences, or ID in general for that matter. I also gave them high-quality scans of my passport and a bank statement. Neteller and perhaps a hundred other casinos and sportsbooks had no problem with them - not to mention the information can easily be independently verified without seeing the documents themselves.

With eCOGRA seemingly in the pocket of Bellerock Casinomeister's return is much anticipated!

Thanks Vesuvio, I guess that clears that up. I know how much this is bothering me, so I can only imagine how those of you directly affected must feel. It almost makes me want to stop playing entirely. I mean, what's next? A DNA sample kept on file, and everytime you cashout, you have to submit a new sample for comparison? Far fetched I know, but this really is too much.

 

[spearmaster]

I've already been looking into this.

I'm going to point out what I think MIGHT be the problem.

First of all, I would be willing to bet that many of these players already have accounts at Gaming Club US and/or Gaming Club UK - does it not occur to you that Gaming Club Japan is the SAME casino?

Secondly - I'd be willing to bet that none of these players read or write Japanese - so why are they playing at the Gaming Club Japan?

Now, having said that, WTF did Belle Rock not:

* Limit play only to Japanese players, or even just people in Japan?
* Block visits to the site from outside Japan and redirect to Gaming Club?
* Trap the obvious flags that would have been raised when someone registered from outside Japan with a non-Japanese name?

If these players do NOT have existing Gaming Club accounts, they MUST be paid in full.

If these players DO have existing Gaming Club accounts, then their duplicate accounts should be closed and money refunded.

 

[soflat]

I don't see why they should restrict Gaming Club Japan to just Japanese players.

If players are signing up with Gaming Club Japan, Gaming Club US, etc to get bonuses I don't see why they (the players) didn't say that in the first place. Did they forget to mention that?

Also, if that is the case, then why did Belle Rock say there were document discrepencies? Why not just say you can only have one Gaming Club Acct?

There is something more to the story and I think we are slowly getting there.

 

[Pinababy69]

If these players do NOT have existing Gaming Club accounts, they MUST be paid in full.

If these players DO have existing Gaming Club accounts, then their duplicate accounts should be closed and money refunded.

Agreed on both points Spear.

Did ALL of these players play at GC Japan? I remember one mentioned it...I'm going to have to go back and read.

 

[spearmaster]

Don't mean to imply anything with regards to those players posting in this thread, but:

They have been mentioning Belle Rock from the start. Never said anything about which casino until that email was posted. Does it not occur to some of you that this would normally be an issue with a casino, and not a group?

Secondly - as to mentioning whether they also had accounts elsewhere... perhaps this fact was just conveniently left out?

My point is, the very fact that we are talking Gaming Club Japan here sticks out like a sore thumb. That's like someone going to Goldfishka Casino and then blaming Fortune Lounge group.

 

[soflat]

They have been mentioning Belle Rock from the start. Never said anything about which casino until that email was posted. Does it not occur to some of you that this would normally be an issue with a casino, and not a group?

The OP said he had 4 accts with Belle Rock casinos. So why not mention Belle Rock?

Secondly - as to mentioning whether they also had accounts elsewhere... perhaps this fact was just conveniently left out?

I don't think that is the issue. The OP said he had 4 accts. Belle Rock did not deny the cashout because of that. It was the documents they were unhappy with.

My point is, the very fact that we are talking Gaming Club Japan here sticks out like a sore thumb. That's like someone going to Goldfishka Casino and then blaming Fortune Lounge group.

Is Golfishka part of Fortune Lounge?

 

[spearmaster]

The OP said he had 4 accts with Belle Rock casinos. So why not mention Belle Rock?

And conveniently didn't mention that Gaming Club was one of them while Gaming Club Japan was the one in question?

I don't know this for a fact, of course. However - complaints usually start with "Cheating Casino robbed me of XXX" rather than "Big Casino Group doesn't like my ID".

Just a thought.

I don't think that is the issue. The OP said he had 4 accts. Belle Rock did not deny the cashout because of that. It was the documents they were unhappy with.

Not going to argue with that point, I certainly do not agree with how Belle Rock handled that under any circumstances.

The issue NOW - is why would someone who could not read Japanese (again, a presumption) play at a casino which only has a Japanese-language website, terms & conditions, and in fact completely translated software as well?

Does this or does this not automatically raise a red flag?

Is Golfishka part of Fortune Lounge?

Goldfishka is certainly managed by the same people. It may or may not actually be part of Fortune Lounge but we are essentially talking about the same group in this case.

In other words, "Fortune Lounge didn't like my ID" suddenly turns out to be "Goldfishka didn't pay me".

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

 

[furby]

Ok just to clarify:

1. I am not a UK player, but from Germany, and sent a German ID card which includes a photo on it.

2. I played at Gaming Club in Euros. The normal Gaming Club for me, not $, not GBP, and certainly not Gaming Club Japan. I played at the Gaming Club for my country and with the currency of my country.

3. I took a bonus and met the wagering requirements on slots.

I really hope these complaints against Belle Rock are not going to be deflected by the introduction of Gaming Club Japan, at which some posters may have played. It is a red herring, because I have never been near Gaming Club Japan and am being frigged around as much as anybody.

If Belle Rock don't want players outside Japan playing at GCJ they have a number of solutions at their disposal. Accepting deposits and denying withdrawals is not an ethical one. If the issue is gaming club japan Belle Rock should say that instead of going on about documents.

I can imagine some posters playing at gaming club japan because they realised that a bonus was available there and there was nothing in the T&Cs to exclude non-Japanese players. Players chase bonuses, casinos know this, and if none of the people who played at GCJ broke the T&Cs they should be paid in full.

This still doesn't explain my case. I have never been near Gaming Club Japan, it is a red herring, another smoke screen thrown up, just like the certified documents bullshit.

The plain truth is that Belle Rock have decided not to pay me my deposit and winnings, and they have chosen to go about this by telling lies and frigging me about.

 

[spearmaster]

As I did say, some players in here were involved with GCJ - not necessarily all.

If you would like to PM me the details of your case I will be happy to see what I can find out.

If Belle Rock don't want players outside Japan playing at GCJ they have a number of solutions at their disposal. Accepting deposits and denying withdrawals is not an ethical one. If the issue is gaming club japan Belle Rock should say that instead of going on about documents.

I can imagine some posters playing at gaming club japan because they realised that a bonus was available there and there was nothing in the T&Cs to exclude non-Japanese players. Players chase bonuses, casinos know this, and if none of the people who played at GCJ broke the T&Cs they should be paid in full.

Provided these players do not have another Gaming Club account, they should of course be paid provided they followed the terms and conditions (which I presume ought to be pretty much the same in Japanese as they are in English LOL).

However, if they have another Gaming Club account, then Belle Rock have every right to refund their deposits as Gaming Club is one casino no matter which site and software you downloaded.

I should point out, however, that GCJ are certainly not well positioned in the search engines and it is pretty unlikely that a non-Japanese would discover their site - but even if they did, there are clear links at the top of the page to Gaming Club US and Gaming Club UK - so I would continue to believe that any non-Japanese playing at GCJ would automatically fall under some suspicion.

 

[PNWGirl38]

Off topic of thread. ( sorta ). However, I was having an "issue" w/ Casino Group mentioned in this thread. According to support, its OK to have more than one acct with a Casino, as long as you don't open "20 accounts with one Casino."
Well, I knew better than to believe what C.S. was saying. However, new players that are not yet seasoned, to the industry might not.

Here is a copy of the live chat session. *Edited posters acct # and C.S. name.



Hello ( posters acct # ), an agent will be with you shortly

You are chatting to (C.S. Name )

posters acct #: I received some postal mail from RiverBelle.. with my HomeCasino acct ID on it.. saying that I have a Match Deposit Bonus of up to $250.00 available to me... is this correct?

C.S : Hi and welcome to our live chat support!

posters acct #: I received some postal mail from RiverBelle.. with my HomeCasino acct ID on it.. saying that I have a Match Deposit Bonus of up to $250.00 available to me... is this correct?

C.S : Thank you, I'm just taking a look at your account details, would you mind holding for a moment or two?

posters acct #: Sure

C.S: ( posters name ) the letter is correct. However to receive the bonus you will need to download and create a new River Belle casino account via the CD that was sent with the letter. Once you have done this and made your deposit, you will alos be able to claim the bonus via the CD.

posters acct # : I have accts with all of the Casinos within RiverBelle


posters acct # : Why would they send me this offer.. with my Acct number on it... telling me... that I have a Match Deposit Bonus available to me.. when they addressed it with my acct.. and now you are telling me, I have to open a NEW acct to have this offer?

C.S: The reason for that is that the Home Casino has now closed to all players. We are trying to convert ex home casino account holders to the River Belle Casino. Even if you do already have a River Belle casino account you will still qualify for the bonus.


posters acct # : But I canNOT open a NEW acct, since I have accts with ALL the Casinos within this group.

C.S: You are more than welcom to have more than one account with any one of our casino's even if you already have an account with them. The purpose of opening the new account is that the bonus being offered cannot be credited to a existing account

posters acct# : So you are telling me, that people can have more than one acct at the same Casino?

C.S : As long as don't open 20 accounts with one casino (that can loook suspicious) you are more than welcom to open one or two with that casino.


posters acct# : OK... now when you download the Casino.. and try to register an acct, it wont let you, cuz it shows that your internet address will show as already having an acct.

C.S. : Where do you see this?


posters acct # : It will come up saying illegal operations... when trying to register a second acct with any Micro Casino.

C.S.: That does not ahpen with our casino's. You may be thinking about Poker account. You may not open more than one Poker account with any Poker room.


posters acct # : Ahhh, OK. Well, I thank you for the info... I don't believe I will try this, for it states in your terms and conditions that this IS NOT acceptable.


posters acct # : Thank you for your time, C.S..

 

[furby]

As I said, I didn't want to sidetracked into a discussion about Gaming Club Japan, which doesn't apply to me.

If you would like to PM me the details of your case I will be happy to see what I can find out.

I'll send you a pm. Thanks.

 

[GrandMaster]

The issue NOW - is why would someone who could not read Japanese (again, a presumption) play at a casino which only has a Japanese-language website, terms & conditions, and in fact completely translated software as well?

The T&C are available in English.
The PWC payout reports are different for the Gaming Club and Gaming Club Japan, which means that they are separate casinos, rather than different language interfaces to the same casino.

 

[bb1webs]

Hi,

I wrote this to my contact at BR after having read up to like page 16 on this thread.

and then after reading the rest of this thread I decided what i had said to them was basically what I wanted to say here; so I am just copying the last part of my letter. So please forgive anything that seems off-topic. I think its all pretty relevant.

Please take special note of my reference about this not being a ploy to avoid payment as I think it will make perfect sense.

Wayne at this point I need some assurance that my players are not going to be asked to "have the police certify their documents". And for that matter you can throw in lawyers too; unless BR wants to pay what the lawyers are going to charge for doing this service (which won't be cheap here in the states). Even more amazing is that even after the player(s) had went to the trouble of getting a lawyer/solicitor, that BR appeared to take the stand that they didn't care what the person did, that they weren't going to pay him/her.

There are just too many online casinos out there for me to justify listing a network where I know this sort of thing has happened before. Because ultimately what is going to happen is I'm going to end up paying somebody for their cashout .... (like this incident: Link Removed) and then the casino will pay and in the end I not only lose the commission % but also the entire amount over again because despite BR's lack of enthusiasm to retain players ... I am much more ambitious and willing to go the extra mile if that is what it takes.

Furthermore because of BR's adamancy about not telling us what it was exactly that caused the problem in the first place ... nobody knows what to do to prevent it from happening again.

I understand the need for this; but at the same time I think BR needs to rethink their procedure for checking documents to something more reasonable. The arguement made that once a document has been certified by the police/lawyer and then copied, it loses anything extra it once had over the original documents being faxed; makes perfect sense.

And besides all that: don't you think that when you read about .... I think I counted about 7 incidents reported, 3 or 4 of those were just mentioned in passing but I remember their coming up: that perhaps, just perhaps the problem lies with the procedure or requirements made by BR: rather than the problem being with the respective player(s)? How many times has this went unreported? Does BR not care that they are possibly running off perfectly good players?

if the program you are using causes this to happen even more than a few times, which I think we can agree has happened; that the program needs to either have some human interface involved to veto some of the more rediculous situations (one comes to mind where the guy was only cashing out like $100 ... I mean come on?.... what are the odds this is some kind of international terrorist or professional fraudster?) ... its rediculous. Or else junk the damn thing and be done with it.

Hell right now I've got too few players coming in to afford to lose some due to a program that doesn't work properly. I have some ideas I'm going to try come fall but right now I just don't see it wise to invest more money than I already am spending in advertising because of the summer slowdown.

However once fall does arrive; how confident do you think I will be about sending new players to some place that this may happen? And that I don't even know what to tell the players to keep this from happening.

The accusations that BR is doing this to avoid payment is as ludicrous as has been the attitude and handling of the situation by BR. It is easy for me to see that if that were the true motivations behind this fiasco then the complaints would be coming from people who were cashing out much larger amounts than what i've read. And yet not one mention of that fact has come out of anybody's mouth that works for BR in their posts. Doesn't that say something to you about the way the situation is being handled?

Reputation is everything in this business and I don't understand why BR isn't doing more to protect theirs?

The very first step in that direction is to train your people to take the player's side first; and then work backwards. Don't immediately think they are out to fraud the casino: first stop and look at it from an dis-interested pov: instead you have training that obviously is aimed at finding the subject guilty first; and then you want to put the burden on them to prove their innocence ... without even giving them a clue on what the problem is in the first place.

I assure you right now this will not sit well with players from the states. Our entire justice system is built around innocent first; then proven guilty by the accuser, not the other way around. And while I suspect its true that our justice system is tainted: the ambitions and intentions of the people are not: and that is who you are dealing with: and they are not bound to adhere to BR's rules. They will simply go somewhere else.

Imagine you were in charge of spotting fraudsters (professional cons) and possible money launders (international terrorists). Would you have really thought anybody trying to cashout an amount less than a few thousand dollars would fit into that category? Shit I could only hope to encounter such incompetent opposition as one that would strive to work for such a small amount. Do you not see the logic in my arguement?

BR already has one of the worst reputations when it comes to customer service. I still list your casinos because I know they will pay. Now that becomes an issue because like I said: not that I think they are trying to avoid payment, but never-the-less it still feels that way to the players effected.

Get back to me with some encouraging news Wayne. With all thats happened in recent times I think it would be courageously and outrageously refreshing to have a casino group announce they have made a step in the direction of what is truly in the best interest of the player.

I most sincerely cannot accept the stipulation that my players are going to be asked to go to the police to get confirmation.

I'd be happy to talk with you or anybody concerned on the phone Wayne, just call me on my cell xxx xxx xxxx

Highest Regards

S.

 

[spearmaster]

The T&C are available in English.
The PWC payout reports are different for the Gaming Club and Gaming Club Japan, which means that they are separate casinos, rather than different language interfaces to the same casino.

So they are - I stand corrected - but you gotta laugh...

However, I disagree that different PWC payout reports mean that they are separate casinos - one can for example run an audit on all accounts labeled gcj******* or whatever the account numbers are for US and UK versions.

The attached picture shows why I do not accept the explanation that they are separate casinos - it is barely any different from a casino with a language selector bar on it.

 

[Vesuvio]

My issue here does involve Gaming Club Japan. Bear with me as this might be a long post

Why mention "Belle Rock" and not specifically "Gaming Club Japan"?

1) So as not to cloud the key issues, which are winnings being denied with no justification & nonsensical (and seemingly unmeetable) demands for ID. If the casino/Belle Rock say they're refusing to pay because this isn't a separate casino that becomes a different issue (ideally with it's own thread). The last two pages of this one plainly demonstrate why it was better to stick to Belle Rock for now.

2) This doesn't involve only Gaming Club Japan players - it's a Belle Rock-wide issue

3) It's perfectly normal to refer to Belle Rock when complaining about one of their casinos. That's been standard practice for a long time on Casinomeister and it's clear that poor CS and suspect policies don't vary much from casino to casino.

Note that Spearmaster himself even after bringing this up has been doing the same:

Now, having said that, WTF did Belle Rock not:
...
Not going to argue with that point, I certainly do not agree with how Belle Rock handled that under any circumstances.
...
However, if they have another Gaming Club account, then Belle Rock...

Gaming Club Japan is a separate casino

This is clearly not just a separate website interface to the same casino. Some evidence:

1) As Grandmaster mentioned they have separate PWC reports: e.g. US/UK

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(pick Feb 2006 & note both US and UK websites link to this report) - Japan

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

2) This is Casino City's take: Link Removed (invalid URL)

3) If that doesn't convince you, here's Belle Rock themselves (or their affiliate managers):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Gaming Club Japan was established in a different year, has a different manager, different software and separate reports on its games. It's a distinct casino, like Intercasino US is distinct from Intercasino UK (and note it's fine to play at both). The UK and US links on the Gaming Club website, on the other hand, just provide a different entry and different bonuses for access to the same casino.

Why play at Gaming Club Japan?

Why play at more than one Microgaming casino? I imagine we all have our reasons (variety, bonuses, a gambling problem), but I don't think it's common for people only to play at one site, however much they trust it.

I've played at French, German, Italian and Russian sites (Goldfishka is a personal favourite, and yes, if I had an issue there I would bring it to Fortune Lounge). It's true I can more or less read all of those languages, while my Japanese is a little rusty ( though I can read a few Chinese letters...), but it's really not difficult to understand the same software in any language - I can't say I play casino games for linguistic enrichment, though the Japanese symbols are pretty funky!

As mentioned, the terms and conditions are in English (in fact the English terms take precedence over those written in Japanese). The UK is listed as one of the locations you can play from when registering. I realise I'm not the main target for Gaming Club Japan marketing, but I see no reason whatsoever not to play there.

Conclusion

Sadly, playing at Gaming Club Japan is almost certainly not the issue here (if it was players could argue an extremely strong case for being paid). But if it was then why would Belle Rock and eCOGRA be refusing to explain their decision? Why would players be being led on a wild goose chase to provide documents? And why would people who've played at other Belle Rock properties be having the same difficulties?

We still haven't got anywhere close to the bottom of this.

 

[marcholmes]

More stalling tactics,

Hi Marc,

We have spoken to your solicitor who has confirmed that she certified the documents. This does not address all of the discrepancies that we have found. We are investigating a series of links between your accounts and those of other players. Based on this we have no option but to keep your accounts locked.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

 

[GrandMaster]

So they are - I stand corrected - but you gotta laugh...

However, I disagree that different PWC payout reports mean that they are separate casinos - one can for example run an audit on all accounts labeled gcj******* or whatever the account numbers are for US and UK versions.

The attached picture shows why I do not accept the explanation that they are separate casinos - it is barely any different from a casino with a language selector bar on it.

The PWC report does not say that they ran an audit on gcj*** accounts at the Gaming Club but that they audited Gaming Club Japan. The Belle Rock website lists the French and German Jackpot City casinos as "Jackpot City, French Language Site" and "Jackpot City, German Language Site", but the The Gaming Club Japan as "The Gaming Club Japan", not as "The Gaming Club Japanese language site". The French and German Jackpot City webpages display the same PWC reports as the English site. gamingclub.com displays the ecogra seal, gamingclubjapan.com does not. Most importantly, my Gaming Club username does not work at Gaming Club Japan. All this evidence supports my assertion that Gaming Club and Gaming Club Japan are separate casinos.

 

[Vesuvio]

gamingclub.com displays the ecogra seal, gamingclubjapan.com does not.

You're quite right Among their many other tricks it seems eCOGRA conducted a "thorough" investigation of my issue without spotting they didn't actually have any basis to do so.

Most importantly, my Gaming Club username does not work at Gaming Club Japan.

Very good point - along with the other evidence I think that should set this matter straight once and for all.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yup.

More stalling tactics,

Good old fashioned multiple account accusation it seems then, nothing to do with documents at all, so they wasted your money in getting them certified, as they would have already known that multiple accounts were an issue and that certification would not make the slightest difference.

Provided the multiple accounts are not against T & C, there should not be a problem. If GC Japan is a separate casino, and nothing in the Terms states that one cannot join more than one Gaming Club site (it is not the same casino as has been shown), there should be no problem. The terms only state one account per casino, and since account numbers at GC do NOT work at GC Japan, they are different casinos.
On eargument is MG Flash and Download. While the interface is different, and the account numbers allocated are of a different format. My RiverBelle download number also works in RiverBelle Flash, as well as RiverBelle USA sites, thus all are the same casino, and I only have one account. If account numbers at one do NOT work at the other, they are different casinos, and need a specific term if use is to be further restricted.

BelleRock also lied at first, this is nothing to do with documents having been "tampered with", it is to do with suspected multiple accounts from the same player. An investigation will need to look at the validity of these supposed links, and that they cannot have an innocent explanation simply to do with how the internet, or an individual ISP, works. A Business really should be familiar with how it's chosen "town" conducts business, before accusing the "residents" of fraud!

 

[spearmaster]

Most importantly, my Gaming Club username does not work at Gaming Club Japan.

That's a good point. I wonder if a GCJ account will work at Gaming Club

Nevertheless, the site design is such that it ought to be clear that non-Japanese players should go to one of the other casinos. It is inexplicable that someone would try to muddle their way through the site if it is not their native language. A non-native English speaker trying to work through an English site, ok. But a non-native Japanese speaker, unless they were perhaps Chinese or Korean, muddling through a Japanese site is just ridiculous no matter how you look at it.

Anyhow, if the players did not breach the terms and conditions, they must be paid, no question about it. Denying payment on the basis of ID is for the most part unacceptable unless there is reasonably clear evidence of fraud.

 

[Vesuvio]

It is inexplicable that someone would try to muddle their way through the site if it is not their native language.

And yet I wrote an explanation for your benefit, Spear: Link Outdated / Removed

Anyway, I'm glad you accept players should be paid if they didn't breach the terms and conditions. Now let's keep this thread on track.

 

[spearmaster]

And yet I wrote an explanation for your benefit, Spear: Link Outdated / Removed

Anyway, I'm glad you accept players should be paid if they didn't breach the terms and conditions. Now let's keep this thread on track.

LMAO... it's on the previous page, so I didn't get to read it until after my post.

3) It's perfectly normal to refer to Belle Rock when complaining about one of their casinos. That's been standard practice for a long time on Casinomeister and it's clear that poor CS and suspect policies don't vary much from casino to casino.

Note that Spearmaster himself even after bringing this up has been doing the same:

Note that I referred to the casino as well. Other posts simply say "Belle Rock".

Yes, the CS is standard, and yes, in my opinion, it still sucks. I know they don't like me saying this, especially not in public fora, but it's the truth - their support is abysmal and needs a shakedown badly.

But referring to a group instead of a casino is certainly not standard practice here unless both are mentioned together. There are some groups that have casinos with different policies and even ownership, after all.

Anyhow, I'm obviously not saying that they can use the language as an excuse not to pay - under no circumstances can they be allowed to do that - but you have to respect the fact that the situation is simply not normal no matter how you look at it.

Meet the terms and conditions and you deserve to be paid, period, no matter HOW much casinos hate that.

 

[furby]

Good old fashioned multiple account accusation it seems then, nothing to do with documents at all, so they wasted your money in getting them certified, as they would have already known that multiple accounts were an issue and that certification would not make the slightest difference.

...

BelleRock also lied at first, this is nothing to do with documents having been "tampered with", it is to do with suspected multiple accounts from the same player. An investigation will need to look at the validity of these supposed links, and that they cannot have an innocent explanation simply to do with how the internet, or an individual ISP, works. A Business really should be familiar with how it's chosen "town" conducts business, before accusing the "residents" of fraud!

Exactly what I was going to say Vinylweatherman. Belle Rock have deliberately denied Marcholmes the opportunity to deny or explain whatever evidence they think they have for multiple accounts, and instead led him on a time consuming and expensive wild goose chase. It looks like he has been tried and found guilty of multiple accounts in his absence, and sentenced to having his time wasted with lies and bullshit.

"Unprofessional" is hardly the word.

The whole certified documents thing is just a way of getting back at a player they think is multi-accounting? Surely the correct thing to do would be to tell the truth at the start about why the player isn't being paid (if they've got good evidence rather than circumstantial suspicions based on dodgy software). This is unbelievable.

For the record I have not played at any other Gaming Club, flash or otherwise, just the one account. Spearmaster is looking into this for me. If the reason for not paying me and locking my account is that they suspect me of multi-accounting they'd better be honest with him and show him the evidence, which I'm sure will be laughable. And they can drop the certified document bullshit.

 

[marcholmes]

I've requested more info from bellerock.
I need to see what the f**k they have linking me to 'other players'.

Why did they not state this originally instead of coming up with a pack of lies about false ID?

 

[thechap]

For some reason I've just felt inclined to waste 20 mins of my life downloading and translating GC Japan. They have an option for country = UK, US, and most of europe so they're happy to accept non Japanese nationals. I think we can totally discount the fact that one of the people complaining played at GC Japan as a total co-incidence.

 

[Linus]

I don't understand the same casino/different casino issue. If it's the same casino, wouldn't they have said, "Hey, thanks for signing up, but you already have an account with us..."?

 

[The Dude]

PAB

Well, I'm back.

As for this Bellrock thread - players who are having an issue with the Bellrock casinos are invited to PAB (it's back online) https://www.casinomeister.com/player-arbitration-pab/

Once I have all the information I need, I'll make the decision whether or not to contact Bellrock and Proc cyber to get to the bottom of this.

Just a heads up: if any players who submit complaints are found to be defrauding the casinos via multiple accounts, faked IDs, addresses, etc., you will be permanently banned from this forum and invoiced 500 Euros for my services.

Please do not submit a complaint if you feel you might fall into this category.

Thanks!

 

[marcholmes]

Thanks CM,

I'm awaiting a response to my last email, if it's not forthcoming I'll be pitching.

The latest email (to which they aint responding is)

I really cannot beleive how many lies you are telling, first you tell me it's one thing, then another, I get you all proof needed then you make up something else.

YOU HAVE NOT EVEN GIVEN ME ALL MY DEPOSITS BACK.

I STILL WANT MY WINNINGS.

You need to sort this out.

What is the next step?

Links to what other players?

What proof of these 'links' do you have?

I'm bloody p*ssed off with em!

 

[Vesuvio]

Good to have you back, Bryan!

I'll PAB later tonight.

 

[wideboy]

The BelleRock rep has agreed to look into my case following a PM to him.

I will also PaB if my matter is not resovled in the very near future.

Thanks for the post CM.

 

[The Dude]

Okay, breezing through the thread - these are the players who have a seemingly legitimate complaint against the casino group:

marcholmes UK
Vesuvio UK
el nino UK
shmoo UK
Let_It_Ride UK
furby Deutschland
chivers UK
josegarcia UK
wideboy UK

I have most of Furby's info via Spearmaster (please PAB with your personal info though - I need this)

Other than that, that's it. Marcholmes stated that he might PAB later, but no one has PAB'd.

Let's go guys/gals. I expect one from each one of you by tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[The Dude]

BTW - please let me know if I'm missing anyone. Thanks!

 

[Let_It_Ride]

Okay, breezing through the thread - these are the players who have a seemingly legitimate complaint against the casino group:

marcholmes UK
Vesuvio UK
el nino UK
shmoo UK
Let_It_Ride UK
furby Deutschland
chivers UK
josegarcia UK
wideboy UK

I have most of Furby's info via Spearmaster (please PAB with your personal info though - I need this)

Other than that, that's it. Marcholmes stated that he might PAB later, but no one has PAB'd.

Let's go guys/gals. I expect one from each one of you by tomorrow. Thanks!

Hey Bryan

thanks for the offer to help, in the end I was paid, posted this on page 4.
Good luck with this

 

[caruso]

marcholmes UK
Vesuvio UK
el nino UK
shmoo UK
Let_It_Ride UK
furby Deutschland
chivers UK
josegarcia UK
wideboy UK

A party I seem to have sadly missed.

 

[The Dude]

So far I have one PAB - Vesuvio's. It's been forwarded to the appropriate parties. The ball is now in motion.

 

[Let_It_Ride]

Just a heads up: if any players who submit complaints are found to be defrauding the casinos via multiple accounts, faked IDs, addresses, etc., you will be permanently banned from this forum and invoiced 500 Euros for my services.

Please do not submit a complaint if you feel you might fall into this category.

Thanks!

interesting comment this, was there anything in this thread that leads you to believe this is the case. From your experience what percentage of players are guilty of this.

My general impression as just a player and someone who reads the posts on here, is that most of the time it's the casinos that are the bad guys, it would be good to get a balanced view

 

[The Dude]

This statement merely reflects the simple #1 rule of PABing - don't waste my time when you know you've done something wrong. Not that my bullshit detector is switched on, I just feel that players need to be aware of this before submitting a complaint via me.

On the other hand, red flags usually pop up for me when a thread like this appears with a number of new members from the same geographical area. I call them "one post commandos". Pop in, make a negative posting, and *poof* they're gone - never to be seen again.

Vesuio and Shmoo are the only two members who have PABd. marcholmes will probably do so, and i have most of furby's info via Spearmaster. But so far, that's about it.

 

[bb1webs]

From your experience what percentage of players are guilty of this.

I have nothing like CM in terms of traffic but I do have enough experience in this area to say that I totally understand CM's position about the subject.

Yes there are a big enough % of people who are either knowingly/unknowingly in the wrong to merit such a stance.

 

[Vesuvio]

On the other hand, red flags usually pop up for me when a thread like this appears with a number of new members from the same geographical area. I call them "one post commandos". Pop in, make a negative posting, and *poof* they're gone - never to be seen again.

I wouldn't argue with reserving a certain scepticism, but it's also a fact that when a casino (or casino group) starts doing something seriously wrong there will always be a number of first time posters - not everyone wants to be a regular poster on a casino forum (inconceivable, I know ), but if they have a problem they may well have heard of Casinomeister as an option. It's first time posters praising casinos that really raise flags

 

[The Dude]

I wouldn't argue with reserving a certain scepticism, but it's also a fact that when a casino (or casino group) starts doing something seriously wrong there will always be a number of first time posters - not everyone wants to be a regular poster on a casino forum (inconceivable, I know ), but if they have a problem they may well have heard of Casinomeister as an option. It's first time posters praising casinos that really raise flags

True, but I find that the newbie poster who posts a complaint right off the bat and hangs around to have some sort of resolution is one that is usually sincere. He may be right, he may be wrong, but he is trying to solve a problem.

The ones that I question are members who jump in make a complaint, and then split. What the hell? Are they trying to solve a problem, or are they merely dissing a casino without expectations of resolution?

For example in this thread, we have complaints for the following members:

marcholmes
Vesuvio
el nino
shmoo
Let_It_Ride
furby
chivers
josegarcia
wideboy

Let_It_Ride said his was resolved - marcholmes, Vesuvio, shmoo have PABd. Furby contacted Spearmaster, but not me.

This leaves el nino, chivers, josegarcia, and wideboy unaccounted for. Wideboy mentioned he'd PAB but why wait?

These four members are relatively new. El Nino signed up at the end of March. the other three signed up in June.

I announced on Monday that the PAB section was back on line. Yet this seems to have lost importance to some of these members. I guess I should email them to let them know I'm waiting for them to fill out a request.

When you complain on a public board, (second person - plural) you are more or less obligated to follow though with your complaint. To do otherwise is abusing this facility and I don't take this lightly.

But on the other hand, this is what makes administrating a board like this interesting - yep, I like my job

So what's the status of this situation? I should have more information on this today and tomorrow.

I have a question for Vesuvio, shmoo, and marcholmes:

Why is it that all three of you deposited the same amount (GBP 250) at Gaming club Japan on the nearly the same day? (Vesuvio 9 May, shmoo 9 May, marcholmes 11 - 14 May). And you live in the same geographical area?

By the way, your accounts were flagged by Proc Cyber by the way - not Bellerock. Bellerock is following instructions by their payment processor and not just pulling this out of their "fourth point of contact" (paratrooper jargon).

 

[The Dude]

Question for wideboy, Chivers, and josegarcia. Are you aware you are posting/registering from the same server? It points to Oxford.

I'm just wondering if you know each other

 

[Vesuvio]

Why is it that all three of you deposited the same amount (GBP 250) at Gaming club Japan on the nearly the same day? (Vesuvio 9 May, shmoo 9 May, marcholmes 11 - 14 May). And you live in the same geographical area?

Why GBP 250? The sign-up bonus was a 100% match up to GBP 250.

Why are the deposits at a similar time? I can't speak for others, but presumably we spotted the bonus at a similar time. Is reading or sharing information about casino offers an offence, or something that needs to be declared before playing at a casino?

I can understand a system might "flag" accounts from the UK if there aren't many at a particular casino, but are you really saying a casino can withhold payments on the basis that players played around the same date and come from the same country

 

[Vesuvio]

By the way, your accounts were flagged by Proc Cyber by the way - not Bellerock.

That at least is reassuring. If Bellerock don't place obstacles in their path I expect this can still be resolved.

 

[The Dude]

Why are the deposits at a similar time? I can't speak for others, but presumably we spotted the bonus at a similar time. Is reading or sharing information about casino offers an offence, or something that needs to be declared before playing at a casino?

I can understand a system might "flag" accounts from the UK if there aren't many at a particular casino, but are you really saying a casino can withhold payments on the basis that players played around the same date and come from the same country

If a number of players are coming from the same IP on the same day and doing the same thing (same deposits, same game play) it raises red flags at the casino and/or payment process level. Thus these accounts are scrutinized - that's all.

 

[josegarcia]

Question for wideboy, Chivers, and josegarcia. Are you aware you are posting/registering from the same server? It points to Oxford.

I'm just wondering if you know each other

no I dont know these people, the only connection could be that we use the same isp (i use pipex).