- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Location
- TX
Players need to get ahold of some of them "natural rights," like the casinos got.
bellerock being akward over ID - locked accs and no payouts.
- Thread starter marcholmes
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2006
- Location
- Germany
From Belle Rock, quoted by Sirius:
Sirius are you happy to swallow this whole? It is a circular argument. They are saying "we claim there is a problem, and the fact that we say there is a problem proves that there is a problem." While such a grandiose statement fits in with Belle Rock's delusion that they are some kind of authority figure, it shouldn't be automatically accepted unchallenged.
Wouldn't it be nice if the minute we claimed something it became true? We would just have to say something and we would always automatically be right because we'd just said it. That is what Belle Rock is asking us to accept.
When Belle Rock ask for certified / verified documents / copies (sorry but their terminology changes all the time) it doesn't automatically mean that they have found a problem. There are other possible explanations. One is that Belle Rock have simply decided not to pay, to achieve this they place unduly onerous demands on the player claiming his winnings, and proceed to frig him around as much as possible.
I would say the posts on this thread point towards the later explanation as being more likely, and I speak as a player who has been robbed of deposit and winnings totalling 498 Euros by these thieving scumbags.
Sirius are you happy to swallow this whole? It is a circular argument. They are saying "we claim there is a problem, and the fact that we say there is a problem proves that there is a problem." While such a grandiose statement fits in with Belle Rock's delusion that they are some kind of authority figure, it shouldn't be automatically accepted unchallenged.
Wouldn't it be nice if the minute we claimed something it became true? We would just have to say something and we would always automatically be right because we'd just said it. That is what Belle Rock is asking us to accept.
When Belle Rock ask for certified / verified documents / copies (sorry but their terminology changes all the time) it doesn't automatically mean that they have found a problem. There are other possible explanations. One is that Belle Rock have simply decided not to pay, to achieve this they place unduly onerous demands on the player claiming his winnings, and proceed to frig him around as much as possible.
I would say the posts on this thread point towards the later explanation as being more likely, and I speak as a player who has been robbed of deposit and winnings totalling 498 Euros by these thieving scumbags.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Location
- TX
GrandMaster said:
Grandmaster, maybe we could get some from eCogra, if they haven't already sold out.
You suppose there's a bulk rate?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Location
- europe
here's a link to the directors of bellerock
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
I suggest those of you having problems try and email them direct, I would try name combinations such as
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
good luck all.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
I suggest those of you having problems try and email them direct, I would try name combinations such as
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
good luck all.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
Some welcome comic relief!
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
I don't actually believe at the moment there were discrepancies in the ID but I'm hoping the casinos think there are. Has anyone got any more responses from eCOGRA? Bellerock have asked players to complain to eCOGRA (which I'm not a fan of) but eCOGRA don't seem to have looked into it much so far.
On the subject of telling players what is wrong with the ID, they simply shouldn't do it if they believe the ID is fraudulant as it would give the person an idea of how to get around it next time. I'm sure I've read cases Casinomeister dealt with where it turned out that the ID was fraudulant but the casino never told the player but Casinomeister was told the actual reasons.
On the subject of telling players what is wrong with the ID, they simply shouldn't do it if they believe the ID is fraudulant as it would give the person an idea of how to get around it next time. I'm sure I've read cases Casinomeister dealt with where it turned out that the ID was fraudulant but the casino never told the player but Casinomeister was told the actual reasons.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Location
- USA
sirius said:
If this is true we sure do have alot of fraudulent people posting on here.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
I haven't heard anything from them 5 days after submitting a complaint, so I suppose I'll have to write again.sirius said:
One of the many thing that worries me here is that in their e-mails confiscating winnings Bellerock offer to take the case to eCOGRA themselves. If you take them up on that then you don't even get the chance to put your own case.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2006
- Location
- Germany
I would be happy to send my ID to Bryan so he can check it's legitimate. I would have pitched a bitch by now but he's on holiday and not taking any new ones.
One of the interesting point regarding all this is Cost.
On friday I telephoned a Notary Public (Type of solicitor/lawyer) and asked how much it would be to certify that a photocopy of my passport was mine.
The charge was 50 plus VAT (A tax in the uk charged @17.5%) so would be 58.75.
Are the casinos paying this back.
This all seems to be an excuse just not to pay. Are Belle Rock saying that all these posters are committing fraud.
On friday I telephoned a Notary Public (Type of solicitor/lawyer) and asked how much it would be to certify that a photocopy of my passport was mine.
The charge was 50 plus VAT (A tax in the uk charged @17.5%) so would be 58.75.
Are the casinos paying this back.
This all seems to be an excuse just not to pay. Are Belle Rock saying that all these posters are committing fraud.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Location
- Heaven
GOCC said:
Ouch... very good point... but on the other hand you only have to do this once and you can send the same copies to all the casinos.
spearmaster said:
I agree spear BUT the way that this seems to be going, they will want recently certified copies. IE in the last 3 months.
The thing is as posted by someone else, they are only cetifying the original photocopy, once this is scanned to be sent it becomes another document.
I personally now when I go to join any casino wil be sending my documents BEFORE I play. Then if they accept and I win and then they quriey the authenticity, I would expect them then to receive the full wrath of the meister and ecogra (Though I know which would worry me the most)
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2006
- Location
- Germany
It doesn't stop with the cost of certifying the copies. If Belle Rock insist on telephoning the solicitor, then as soon as the solicitor picks up the phone he'll start charging for time spent on the matter, and send his bill to guess who? I can't see Belle Rock offering to pick up the tab.
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2005
- Location
- Earth
No problems with River Belle
I played for the first time on this casino : $ 50 deposit and $ 200 bonus.
Cashed out $400 on June,8 and today the money is in my Neteller account.
They did not ask any ID documents to send.
I am pleasantly surprised because after reading this thread I had my doubts about getting my money.
I played for the first time on this casino : $ 50 deposit and $ 200 bonus.
Cashed out $400 on June,8 and today the money is in my Neteller account.
They did not ask any ID documents to send.
I am pleasantly surprised because after reading this thread I had my doubts about getting my money.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Location
- sheffield
Glad you got your money retlaw, however i have a similar but interestingly different story of belle rock refusing to pay me.
I received the following email from belle rock :
"Your account has been fully reviewed by our risk department and the result is as follow:
We are sorry to inform you that there are discrepancies with the documents that you have sent us.
Therefore we have no other choice but to have your account locked and refund your initial deposit back to your Neteller account.
If you are unsatisfied with any part of our decision, please feel free to contact us and we will bring your case to Ecogra for an unbiased review."
At first sight this sounds pretty similar to the other complaints on here, however there is one significant difference worth noting - I have never sent them any id documents. (They had asked and I hadnt got round to sending them yet)
The conclusion I draw from this is that belle rock says there are "discrepancies" with documents when it has decided it doesnt feel like paying a big winner.
It must be nice work if you can get it as a casino owner, paying the people who you think will come back and lose it all again amd refusing to pay others on the basis of "discrepancies" in id documents which you have not even received.
I received the following email from belle rock :
"Your account has been fully reviewed by our risk department and the result is as follow:
We are sorry to inform you that there are discrepancies with the documents that you have sent us.
Therefore we have no other choice but to have your account locked and refund your initial deposit back to your Neteller account.
If you are unsatisfied with any part of our decision, please feel free to contact us and we will bring your case to Ecogra for an unbiased review."
At first sight this sounds pretty similar to the other complaints on here, however there is one significant difference worth noting - I have never sent them any id documents. (They had asked and I hadnt got round to sending them yet)
The conclusion I draw from this is that belle rock says there are "discrepancies" with documents when it has decided it doesnt feel like paying a big winner.
It must be nice work if you can get it as a casino owner, paying the people who you think will come back and lose it all again amd refusing to pay others on the basis of "discrepancies" in id documents which you have not even received.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
- Location
- Alaska
OK.
I don't normally like to get involved with many issues.
But this issue and the JPF issue have caught my eye, and I feel that my input here may or may not be helpful.
I work in the legal industry (Law Enforcement). Some of you may know this - some may not. The point of advising you of this, gives credence to what I am about to say.
I deal, on a daily basis, with identification and identification issues.
Each state, country, utility - ad infinitum... has a different look or requirement to the identification that it provides. Some of these looks are easily forged, some are difficult to ascertain.
Currently the online gaming industry is under extreme scrutiny. Politicians would have you believe that they (the Online Gaming Industry) fund terrorism, etc. By laundering money or by funneling funds towards terroristic or mob activity. While this is possible, it is unlikely, in my book - I tend to think it has more to do with the lack of the ability of the politicians to touch the money or have any taxation on it.
It is very difficult to get an updated 'version' of the individual types of licenses, identification cards and utility bills in order to confirm that the identification, itself, is valid.
I disagree with the Casino in that they refuse to advise the customer what exactly is the discrepancy - however as a caveat - I must admit there are some issues which could possibly tip off a forger so that they do not make the same mistake twice - thus creating a "perfect" copy for the next identification process. So in reality - this is a double edged sword for the Casino.
A notary or solicitor should never provide personal information to anyone else, unless specifically instructed to by the individual - in 99.9% of cases where a notary has breached confidentiality - there is the ability for recourse. (In other words, if your notary tells his/her friends that you came in to see them with this particular issue - then you may not only initiate an investigation regarding their oath and practice - you also may have the right to sue them in a civil issue, aside from the state or country taking action.)
I agree with the right of the Casino to request identification and certification of the information by a reputable or legal point. Forged documents are a very big issue - and with the current political set, every step must be insured for veracity.
However, I think that the manner in which it is done - to allow the player to deposit - then question it on a win, is a bit uncomfortable for the player - and shines a bad light on the company.
Belle Rock - certainly has an issue with customer service. My own personal opinion is that they need better management over customer service and a better communication network. They also need to set a standard within their own agency so that everything is formatted exactly the same, with variances only for individual responses. The chain of command needs to be set - and followed. However, I don't own the company - but I can choose to play with them with my money based on my idealogy of their service.
So - basically - I don't think that if they ask a customer to certify documents that they are in the wrong.
However, they should do their own research - and should find an acceptable way to have the consumer certify the documents at their (the Casino's) expense.
My suggestion would be for the company to make a choice of a specific place or company/business/solictor/notary within a reasonable distance from the person's residence that is accessible by the person and provide reimbursement to the person/player in order to arrive there (taxi fare, bus fare, gas fare) and return home.
It could be as simple as a specific clerk at a grocery store - to as complicated as a private notary or solicitor or attorney.
This would make the Casino responsible for the action and not the customer.
I think this is a responsibility of who pays "what" issue - and an issue of what is acceptable as a certification process - more so than the gaming industry pulling a "fast one".
Which narrows down to: A lack of a definitive customer service plan and a lack of information between the Casino and each state or jurisdiction's identification process.
Now - bear in mind. Like there are rogue casinos, there are rogue players.
Know that there are a multitude of people with forged documents that are, indeed, doing illegal things and the Casino has a right to protect itself.
However - the Casino should compensate the player at some point for the hassle - especially if the identification proves to be legitimate.
If the Casino cannot formulate a plan to work both in favor of the Casino and the player - then the Casino is at fault, provided the player is working in good faith with the Casino.
The player's responsibility lies in providing the documents - but no further.
If, however, the Casino wants further documentation because it has questioned the player's documents - then I believe it should be up to the Casino to assist the player in getting that documentation - and providing a way for the player to get that documentation certified.
Again - in my humble opinion - it is a lack of customer service skills that is provoking this issue - IF the player's documentation is in order and the player is guilt free.
Also again (long winded, I know - sorry... but I have to clarify my thoughts, so they are precise) The Casino has the right to protect itself from scam artists, forgers, rogue players and the politicians. But it should make every reasonable effort to provide excellent customer service - and in so doing, it needs to make the means available to the player to complete the action it is requesting of the player.
Here are my suggestions for the Casino to use...
For example:
Then:
(Why... you ask? Because Police Departments, Judges, Solicitors, Lawyers are not going to want to put effort or time into providing certification for gambling - plus there IS a stigmata associated with gambling for the customer - and a Casino should understand that while gambling is perfectly acceptable in Las Vegas/Monaco, etc., it is not widely accepted everywhere - which is why in home online privacy should be respected.)
Just my thoughts on this particular issue.
Meki
WagerWitch
luckymeki
I don't normally like to get involved with many issues.
But this issue and the JPF issue have caught my eye, and I feel that my input here may or may not be helpful.
I work in the legal industry (Law Enforcement). Some of you may know this - some may not. The point of advising you of this, gives credence to what I am about to say.
I deal, on a daily basis, with identification and identification issues.
Each state, country, utility - ad infinitum... has a different look or requirement to the identification that it provides. Some of these looks are easily forged, some are difficult to ascertain.
Currently the online gaming industry is under extreme scrutiny. Politicians would have you believe that they (the Online Gaming Industry) fund terrorism, etc. By laundering money or by funneling funds towards terroristic or mob activity. While this is possible, it is unlikely, in my book - I tend to think it has more to do with the lack of the ability of the politicians to touch the money or have any taxation on it.
It is very difficult to get an updated 'version' of the individual types of licenses, identification cards and utility bills in order to confirm that the identification, itself, is valid.
I disagree with the Casino in that they refuse to advise the customer what exactly is the discrepancy - however as a caveat - I must admit there are some issues which could possibly tip off a forger so that they do not make the same mistake twice - thus creating a "perfect" copy for the next identification process. So in reality - this is a double edged sword for the Casino.
A notary or solicitor should never provide personal information to anyone else, unless specifically instructed to by the individual - in 99.9% of cases where a notary has breached confidentiality - there is the ability for recourse. (In other words, if your notary tells his/her friends that you came in to see them with this particular issue - then you may not only initiate an investigation regarding their oath and practice - you also may have the right to sue them in a civil issue, aside from the state or country taking action.)
I agree with the right of the Casino to request identification and certification of the information by a reputable or legal point. Forged documents are a very big issue - and with the current political set, every step must be insured for veracity.
However, I think that the manner in which it is done - to allow the player to deposit - then question it on a win, is a bit uncomfortable for the player - and shines a bad light on the company.
Belle Rock - certainly has an issue with customer service. My own personal opinion is that they need better management over customer service and a better communication network. They also need to set a standard within their own agency so that everything is formatted exactly the same, with variances only for individual responses. The chain of command needs to be set - and followed. However, I don't own the company - but I can choose to play with them with my money based on my idealogy of their service.
So - basically - I don't think that if they ask a customer to certify documents that they are in the wrong.
However, they should do their own research - and should find an acceptable way to have the consumer certify the documents at their (the Casino's) expense.
My suggestion would be for the company to make a choice of a specific place or company/business/solictor/notary within a reasonable distance from the person's residence that is accessible by the person and provide reimbursement to the person/player in order to arrive there (taxi fare, bus fare, gas fare) and return home.
It could be as simple as a specific clerk at a grocery store - to as complicated as a private notary or solicitor or attorney.
This would make the Casino responsible for the action and not the customer.
I think this is a responsibility of who pays "what" issue - and an issue of what is acceptable as a certification process - more so than the gaming industry pulling a "fast one".
Which narrows down to: A lack of a definitive customer service plan and a lack of information between the Casino and each state or jurisdiction's identification process.
Now - bear in mind. Like there are rogue casinos, there are rogue players.
Know that there are a multitude of people with forged documents that are, indeed, doing illegal things and the Casino has a right to protect itself.
However - the Casino should compensate the player at some point for the hassle - especially if the identification proves to be legitimate.
If the Casino cannot formulate a plan to work both in favor of the Casino and the player - then the Casino is at fault, provided the player is working in good faith with the Casino.
The player's responsibility lies in providing the documents - but no further.
If, however, the Casino wants further documentation because it has questioned the player's documents - then I believe it should be up to the Casino to assist the player in getting that documentation - and providing a way for the player to get that documentation certified.
Again - in my humble opinion - it is a lack of customer service skills that is provoking this issue - IF the player's documentation is in order and the player is guilt free.
Also again (long winded, I know - sorry... but I have to clarify my thoughts, so they are precise) The Casino has the right to protect itself from scam artists, forgers, rogue players and the politicians. But it should make every reasonable effort to provide excellent customer service - and in so doing, it needs to make the means available to the player to complete the action it is requesting of the player.
Here are my suggestions for the Casino to use...
For example:
- Customer deposits and plays at casino
- Customer wins
- Customer asks for cashout
- Casino asks for ID (to verify identity)
- Customer sends ID
- Casino scrutinizes ID, does not have a verifiable source to judge ID sound
- Casino asks customer to provide certified copy
Then:
- ----- Casino advises that it will:
- -------------(a) Reimburse for expenses of travel and cost of certification process - since it is the Casino asking for certification.
- -------------(b) The Casino will advise the customer of a specific location or a specific group of locations that would be acceptable for certification process - which the Casino will then accept. The Casino providing reimbursement for the inconvenience of the customer, since the customer has acted in good faith in providing the original documentation.
- ------------(c) If the Casino does not automatically have a reliable location that is satisfactory for both the player and the Casino - the Casino should at it's own expense, do research in locating an acceptable place for the customer. (ie; look in the yellow pages for a business that the Casino would accept certification from) and provide expenses in reimbursement form for travel.
- -----------(d) The Casino should have a group of rules and regulations in place regarding identification - process of certification - reimbursement.
- -----------(e) The Casino should have a Nameless Form that can be signed by the business that does NOT identify the clarification process as a gambling issue.
(Why... you ask? Because Police Departments, Judges, Solicitors, Lawyers are not going to want to put effort or time into providing certification for gambling - plus there IS a stigmata associated with gambling for the customer - and a Casino should understand that while gambling is perfectly acceptable in Las Vegas/Monaco, etc., it is not widely accepted everywhere - which is why in home online privacy should be respected.)
Just my thoughts on this particular issue.
Meki
WagerWitch
luckymeki
I never undertand this term Money Laundering in how it is banded about.
If I deposit with NETeller
Win With NETeller
Withdraw to NETeller
How can I have laundered any money. As long as they pay back to the sorce of deposit it irradicates the money laundering excuse.
A poster has had his documents refused due to discrepencies but he hasnt even sent in any. What doe that say ??
Plus another thing, they have refunded deposits back to NETeller. So, what if you do not win anything to make a withdrawal back to NETeller. Would they ask for ID then because it doesnt match pay you your loses back.?Not a chance.
This bares the same as Captain cooks. All accounts got locked but if you had lost, they reopened. If you had any money in, they accused you are being part of a fraud ring
If I deposit with NETeller
Win With NETeller
Withdraw to NETeller
How can I have laundered any money. As long as they pay back to the sorce of deposit it irradicates the money laundering excuse.
A poster has had his documents refused due to discrepencies but he hasnt even sent in any. What doe that say ??
Plus another thing, they have refunded deposits back to NETeller. So, what if you do not win anything to make a withdrawal back to NETeller. Would they ask for ID then because it doesnt match pay you your loses back.?Not a chance.
This bares the same as Captain cooks. All accounts got locked but if you had lost, they reopened. If you had any money in, they accused you are being part of a fraud ring
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2006
- Location
- Germany
They noticed discrepancies in documents they hadn't even received? Sirius wrote:
"We have found discrepancies in the documents" seems to be Belle Rock's default setting, even before any documents arrive! I'm afraid my money's still on the gratuitous frigging around option.
Belle Rock wrote:
Well at least I'm getting a few laughs for my 498 euros, although it's more than I'd normally spend to hear a few one-liners from a comedian.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
I don't see the political issue here. Perhaps under-age gambling or playing from the USA when not allowed might be a publicity problem, but if you're going to be seen to take action on that you'd have to verify gamblers before they play. You can't say it's ok if you're underage as long as you lose. In fact it's the behaviour of Bellerock that's further undermining the casino industry and creating genuine reasons for politicians to be concerned.luckymeki said:
It's clear that ID really isn't issue when you provide certified ID and it makes no difference, or where you're told documents the casino don't possess have discrepancies. I understand casinos might struggle with interpreting ID from some countries, but I don't think UK drivers licences or passports are going to tax them. Note all of this info can be (and presumably is - see for example Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ) checked automatically on the internet. Heck, with a little help from Google I can find my address and a satellite photo of my house. If I can do that I imagine Bellerock can too.
I do agree with you that if casinos genuinely have any need for certified documents they need to compensate the players and help them to obtain them - but again, documents are a red herring here (in my case & it seems for others too) - it's just an excuse for avoiding payment.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
- Location
- UK
Vesuvio said:
I agree Vesuvio
Take Harrods Casino for example I had played there for a while and made quite a few withdrawals. The first time I had to make a large withdrawal however (a few thousand) they asked for ID.
They were apologetic, said it was their policy but also said in compensation for the hassle they would gift me 50 on receipt of the ID. ( which they subsequently did)
Now that is what I call quality service and for casinos who require ID is the model they should follow.
Mitch
thechap
Banned User - multiple forum accounts - violation
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Location
- sunny croxdale
I would very much like to see further comment from Belle Rock on this issue. It is apparent that they have not been 100% honest on what is going on and until they are able to clarify exactly what is going on my business is definately going elsewhere.
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario - Canada
josegarcia said:
Simply can't wait to hear the answer on this one, just can't wait.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Location
- TX
They're clairvoyant.
It's the only explanation.
Think of all the time you'll save, not having to send documents, before they reject them.
It's the only explanation.
Think of all the time you'll save, not having to send documents, before they reject them.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Location
- USA
Linus said:
Thats too good!marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
I've still had no reply to my last PM regarding them allegedly trying to contact my solicitor and my offer of having my solicitor call them to make the initial contact. The bellerock rep has logged in here today too.......
You gotta love josegarcia's post - they have found discrepancies with documents not even sent? WTF are bellerock on.
You gotta love josegarcia's post - they have found discrepancies with documents not even sent? WTF are bellerock on.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Carmen Media.
According to their website they use three products to verify players.
The first link goes to a site that does not actually provide any service at all!!! (Site under construction). The second goes to "Verid", all fancy pics and links but sweet FA in regard to content. Lastly, Risk Sentinel, owned by Proc Cyber, has this little nicety:-
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Merchant/Brand Specific negative database
This database is managed completely by the merchant. The Merchant sets the criteria for inclusion in this database. Where the merchant chooses to use The RiskSentinel as a service, Risk Operatives acting according to the criteria set by the merchant will add data.
Should the merchant decide not to participate in the central database this will be the main negative database. Individuals who the merchant does not choose to do business with may be added at this level.
This could apply to particularly successful (in terms of winnings) gamblers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do I read correctly, there IS a "negative database for MG casinos generally, AND a particular client can set up their own!
"Particularly Successful" gamblers can be added simply for winning "too much"
Well WTF - it's SODDING WELL RANDOM SOFTWARE - you WILL have the odd player with the luck of the devil, just as we sometimes make deposit after deposit and lose much more than expected by the statistics. This looks really bad if BelleRock have decided not to do business with a player based on success, but that this then is applied retrospectively to the recent win, although they were happy to accept the deposit and risk at the time it was made. (A win/win situation for the casino).
For the player whose documents were rejected without being sent, did you send documents to any Trident Lounge property? I would expect that the client specific negative databases would have been merged, and it could be that all these players suffering this problem are also current or previous Trident Lounge players, perhaps who have won "too much" there, or whose details when they joined do not match their current details, perhaps they moved house!
An answer is required NOW for the player who had documents rejected but did not send any. The other cases need an independent and trusted third party to take a look at the documents to see if there is reason to suspect they have been tampered with, Bryan should fit the bill.
If these players turn out to be innocent, or are simply being jerked around due to "winning too much" and getting on the database, Roguedom should be a consideration. If the players are all frauds, then they will be rogued, but the more this case develops (more and more players affected), the less likely this seems to be.
Part 2!
The Review Process
The RiskSentinel has three responses to a transaction Yes, No and Maybe.
Maybe is the review process. This reaction is used for transactions/accounts that fall into the grey area of either fraud or possible VIP.
The profile of a budding VIP is very similar to the profile of a fraudster - further investigations need to be carried out in order to ascertain which is correct.
As part of the system design a number of training courses have been developed, specifically to train Risk Investigators to evaluate 'risk' situations and individuals.
The courses include Fraud Awareness, Internet Research and Investigation and a course geared towards assessing deceptive behaviour on the phone.
The customer-focused approach to managing conversations will enable trained staff to deal not only with conversations that are needed to differentiate between a budding VIP and a fraudster but also to manage conversations with consumers who wish to deny their actions. This training enables The RiskSentinel to claim a means for dealing with the 'crime' of denial.
Crumbs, the innocent don't stand an Effin' chance do they, merely claiming that you did nothing wrong is itself seen as a crime if the casino thinks otherwise according to this "training".
There is also an FAQ section, but you have to "ask permission" to have the PDF sent - do they have even worse to hide!
How many innocent people have fallen victim to identity crime, and then get treated by the system as the CRIMINAL rather than the VICTIM. A survey once stated it was about one in 5 people affected. Clearing ones name is very difficult, especially if you cannot find out if your name has been "soiled" in the first place!.
It seems the word of "Risk Sentinel" is the word of GOD to the industry, yet they admit that telling a budding VIP from a fraudster is not easy, and I presume this means they can get it wrong at times.
If "Risk Sentinel" have used bad data in arriving at their decisions, and do not provide for those affected to review and correct the data, they can be sued for damages at the place they reside. Proc Cyber have a UK office, so the UK players will be covered by data protection laws. This means they can require Proc Cyber to reveal all the personal data they hold on them for a fee not exceeding £10.
In one case of unsubmitted documents being rejected, it looks like a bad report through Risk Sentinel is the most likely cause, and the E-mail received was simply the standard response, bearing no relation to the real cause of rejection.
According to their website they use three products to verify players.
The first link goes to a site that does not actually provide any service at all!!! (Site under construction). The second goes to "Verid", all fancy pics and links but sweet FA in regard to content. Lastly, Risk Sentinel, owned by Proc Cyber, has this little nicety:-
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Merchant/Brand Specific negative database
This database is managed completely by the merchant. The Merchant sets the criteria for inclusion in this database. Where the merchant chooses to use The RiskSentinel as a service, Risk Operatives acting according to the criteria set by the merchant will add data.
Should the merchant decide not to participate in the central database this will be the main negative database. Individuals who the merchant does not choose to do business with may be added at this level.
This could apply to particularly successful (in terms of winnings) gamblers.
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Do I read correctly, there IS a "negative database for MG casinos generally, AND a particular client can set up their own!
"Particularly Successful" gamblers can be added simply for winning "too much"
Well WTF - it's SODDING WELL RANDOM SOFTWARE - you WILL have the odd player with the luck of the devil, just as we sometimes make deposit after deposit and lose much more than expected by the statistics. This looks really bad if BelleRock have decided not to do business with a player based on success, but that this then is applied retrospectively to the recent win, although they were happy to accept the deposit and risk at the time it was made. (A win/win situation for the casino).For the player whose documents were rejected without being sent, did you send documents to any Trident Lounge property? I would expect that the client specific negative databases would have been merged, and it could be that all these players suffering this problem are also current or previous Trident Lounge players, perhaps who have won "too much" there, or whose details when they joined do not match their current details, perhaps they moved house!
An answer is required NOW for the player who had documents rejected but did not send any. The other cases need an independent and trusted third party to take a look at the documents to see if there is reason to suspect they have been tampered with, Bryan should fit the bill.
If these players turn out to be innocent, or are simply being jerked around due to "winning too much" and getting on the database, Roguedom should be a consideration. If the players are all frauds, then they will be rogued, but the more this case develops (more and more players affected), the less likely this seems to be.
Part 2!
The Review Process
The RiskSentinel has three responses to a transaction Yes, No and Maybe.
Maybe is the review process. This reaction is used for transactions/accounts that fall into the grey area of either fraud or possible VIP.
The profile of a budding VIP is very similar to the profile of a fraudster - further investigations need to be carried out in order to ascertain which is correct.
As part of the system design a number of training courses have been developed, specifically to train Risk Investigators to evaluate 'risk' situations and individuals.
The courses include Fraud Awareness, Internet Research and Investigation and a course geared towards assessing deceptive behaviour on the phone.
The customer-focused approach to managing conversations will enable trained staff to deal not only with conversations that are needed to differentiate between a budding VIP and a fraudster but also to manage conversations with consumers who wish to deny their actions. This training enables The RiskSentinel to claim a means for dealing with the 'crime' of denial.
Crumbs, the innocent don't stand an Effin' chance do they, merely claiming that you did nothing wrong is itself seen as a crime if the casino thinks otherwise according to this "training".
There is also an FAQ section, but you have to "ask permission" to have the PDF sent - do they have even worse to hide!
How many innocent people have fallen victim to identity crime, and then get treated by the system as the CRIMINAL rather than the VICTIM. A survey once stated it was about one in 5 people affected. Clearing ones name is very difficult, especially if you cannot find out if your name has been "soiled" in the first place!.
It seems the word of "Risk Sentinel" is the word of GOD to the industry, yet they admit that telling a budding VIP from a fraudster is not easy, and I presume this means they can get it wrong at times.
If "Risk Sentinel" have used bad data in arriving at their decisions, and do not provide for those affected to review and correct the data, they can be sued for damages at the place they reside. Proc Cyber have a UK office, so the UK players will be covered by data protection laws. This means they can require Proc Cyber to reveal all the personal data they hold on them for a fee not exceeding £10.
In one case of unsubmitted documents being rejected, it looks like a bad report through Risk Sentinel is the most likely cause, and the E-mail received was simply the standard response, bearing no relation to the real cause of rejection.
Last edited:
Legal Fees
I have just spoken to the solicitors I use.
They have informed me of the following:-
To Certify Documents £50+VAT £58.75
To receive a phone call the timings are done in units with one unit being 12 minutes. These are charged at £28 per Unit or £140 per hour. PLUS VAT
To make a telephone call the timing are again in units. Again 1 unit is 12 minutes. These are charged at £32 per unit or £160 per hour. PLUS VAT
So, if they certify the docs then receive a phone call from Belle Rock it would cost me £91.65
WTF is this about. Lets cut the shitte and get a proper statement from Belle Rock who I have supported in the past
IMHO these need rogueing until this is sorted out. You cannot impliment a cost of £90 on someone just to play at your casino
I have just spoken to the solicitors I use.
They have informed me of the following:-
To Certify Documents £50+VAT £58.75
To receive a phone call the timings are done in units with one unit being 12 minutes. These are charged at £28 per Unit or £140 per hour. PLUS VAT
To make a telephone call the timing are again in units. Again 1 unit is 12 minutes. These are charged at £32 per unit or £160 per hour. PLUS VAT
So, if they certify the docs then receive a phone call from Belle Rock it would cost me £91.65
WTF is this about. Lets cut the shitte and get a proper statement from Belle Rock who I have supported in the past
IMHO these need rogueing until this is sorted out. You cannot impliment a cost of £90 on someone just to play at your casino
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
Here is the latest reply:
To which I have responded:
I'm sick that I've had to drag this onto a public forum but this has been going on for about 1 month now.
bellerock said:
To which I have responded:
I'm sick that I've had to drag this onto a public forum but this has been going on for about 1 month now.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2006
- Location
- midwest
GrandMaster said:
Thanks, I've never been to England and didnt know that.
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
I've still had no reply.
My solicitor assures me she has not received any calls from bellerock/carmen media or anyone identifying me.
Bellerock just do not want to pay me and I'm doing all I can to get my solicitor in touch with them which is a more effort than they are clearly making.
I notice they've gone quiet on this thread too, I also note they have failed to come on here an explain why they have failed to respond to josegarcia's post regarding them saying there was a discrepncy with his docs, despite him not sending anything.
Bellerock, your treatment of me is an utter disgrace, this thread won't die until you pay me.
My solicitor assures me she has not received any calls from bellerock/carmen media or anyone identifying me.
Bellerock just do not want to pay me and I'm doing all I can to get my solicitor in touch with them which is a more effort than they are clearly making.
I notice they've gone quiet on this thread too, I also note they have failed to come on here an explain why they have failed to respond to josegarcia's post regarding them saying there was a discrepncy with his docs, despite him not sending anything.
Bellerock, your treatment of me is an utter disgrace, this thread won't die until you pay me.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Oh Dear!
I'm afraid the more you protest, you are committing the "crime of denial" as per Risk Sentinel training course. The fact that you have actually called their bluff and allowed them access to your solicitor has made them have to refer back as to how to deal with this aspect of your "crime".
You are really guilty, and they need to work hard with you to allow you to see this, and stop deceiving yourself that BelleRock CS are incometent, as they are the best in the business and are infallible
, just like the pope, by absolute definition.
Perhaps if you ask nicely, they will pay for Psychiatric treatment to assist you to come to terms with this guilt and self denial of the facts
josegarcia's case is different; no conscious memory of sending in documents, however, SKY ONE had a documentary on sleep disorders recently, and showed that people can carry out complex tasks while still technically asleep due to a malfunction in the part of the brain that surpresses movement in stage 4 of the sleep cycle. It would be possible for BelleRock to argue that josegarcia scanned and submitted these documents in such a sleep state, and naturally remembers nothing about it now!
BelleRock need to show these documents to josegarcia and say when they were received, which will probably turn out to have been late at night.
While the players may be holding back part of the story, so must BelleRock. BelleRock must convince players that this is NOT some horrible cock-up, and that they really HAVE been hit by UK and German fraudsters who they have caught out in the end after following their play for a while.
While there is this uncertainty, players cannot really trust the group not to screw them over due to imcompetence, and give them no means to appeal without committing the "crime of denial".
marcholmes said:
I'm afraid the more you protest, you are committing the "crime of denial" as per Risk Sentinel training course. The fact that you have actually called their bluff and allowed them access to your solicitor has made them have to refer back as to how to deal with this aspect of your "crime".
You are really guilty, and they need to work hard with you to allow you to see this, and stop deceiving yourself that BelleRock CS are incometent, as they are the best in the business and are infallible
, just like the pope, by absolute definition.Perhaps if you ask nicely, they will pay for Psychiatric treatment to assist you to come to terms with this guilt and self denial of the facts
josegarcia's case is different; no conscious memory of sending in documents, however, SKY ONE had a documentary on sleep disorders recently, and showed that people can carry out complex tasks while still technically asleep due to a malfunction in the part of the brain that surpresses movement in stage 4 of the sleep cycle. It would be possible for BelleRock to argue that josegarcia scanned and submitted these documents in such a sleep state, and naturally remembers nothing about it now!
BelleRock need to show these documents to josegarcia and say when they were received, which will probably turn out to have been late at night.
While the players may be holding back part of the story, so must BelleRock. BelleRock must convince players that this is NOT some horrible cock-up, and that they really HAVE been hit by UK and German fraudsters who they have caught out in the end after following their play for a while.
While there is this uncertainty, players cannot really trust the group not to screw them over due to imcompetence, and give them no means to appeal without committing the "crime of denial".
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
Didn't get this for a while due to an error with an e-mail address, but exactly the same response from eCOGRA as posted by another player:
Note, 1) the casino "acted appropriately", even though we've all seen they've been found to be lying and leading players on a wild goose chase about certified documents
2) Tex doesn't even feel it's necessary to say which terms and conditions have been applied
My case categorically involves nothing that would require confidentiality, but if I'm not accused of anything I can't defend myself. Quite a pickle, but not half as bad as the one Bellerock and eCOGRA are going to find themselves in if they don't rethink this.
So we've got Bellerock, the Bellerock rep on here and Tex Rees from eCOGRA all giving form responses and considering that sufficient to take money from players' accounts.
Note, 1) the casino "acted appropriately", even though we've all seen they've been found to be lying and leading players on a wild goose chase about certified documents
2) Tex doesn't even feel it's necessary to say which terms and conditions have been applied
My case categorically involves nothing that would require confidentiality, but if I'm not accused of anything I can't defend myself. Quite a pickle, but not half as bad as the one Bellerock and eCOGRA are going to find themselves in if they don't rethink this.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
He's on holidayGOCC said:
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2006
- Location
- UK
I, too, am still waiting to hear their replies to this and will not drop it until it is resolved.
LC
LC
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
Now I've called their bluff and provided everything they wanted, this sham of an outfit appear to be ignoring my requests for a contact number so I can have my solicitor call them.
I quite fancy a trip to Gibralter and South Africa
I quite fancy a trip to Gibralter and South Africa
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Location
- europe
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
Let_It_Ride said:
Thanks, I'll give it a try but I won't hold my breath.
I won't waste my time with eCOGRA, I've read their disputes section, they don't want any documentated proof unless they ask for it. I'm not cofortable with that as I would want to present my case in full, plus I don't beleive they are nuetral in any case.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Location
- USA
"Perhaps if you ask nicely, they will pay for Psychiatric treatment to assist you to come to terms with this guilt and self denial of the facts"
But only if he has a sufficient balance in his account to cover these costs.
But only if he has a sufficient balance in his account to cover these costs.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
proof
This is because of the documented process done by the casino. If this process was done properly, the casino will normally win. There is an assumption that the casino will not attempt to deceive the process by misrepresenting the evidence, as the player never sees this document there is no chance to accuse the casino of anything.
In a normal arbritration procedure, both sides submit their own side of the story, and the result is determined on a balance of probabilities.
No-one knows if this document actually demonstrates the evidence, or simply contains an expert witness statement to the effect that they exist.
If you have strong feelings, pay for a solicitor's letter to be sent to them demanding proof that reasonable attempts were made to contact your solicitor. Your solicitor could always contact them on the customer support number, and find out first hand how bad their support is.
If Carmen Media apply for a UK Remote Gaming licence next year, you could always send your evidence to them with an objection to the granting of said licence. Other UK players, or any for that matter, could do the same, the more sound complaints the better.
marcholmes said:
This is because of the documented process done by the casino. If this process was done properly, the casino will normally win. There is an assumption that the casino will not attempt to deceive the process by misrepresenting the evidence, as the player never sees this document there is no chance to accuse the casino of anything.
In a normal arbritration procedure, both sides submit their own side of the story, and the result is determined on a balance of probabilities.
No-one knows if this document actually demonstrates the evidence, or simply contains an expert witness statement to the effect that they exist.
If you have strong feelings, pay for a solicitor's letter to be sent to them demanding proof that reasonable attempts were made to contact your solicitor. Your solicitor could always contact them on the customer support number, and find out first hand how bad their support is.
If Carmen Media apply for a UK Remote Gaming licence next year, you could always send your evidence to them with an objection to the granting of said licence. Other UK players, or any for that matter, could do the same, the more sound complaints the better.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2004
- Location
- Location, Location!
vinylweatherman said:
Great observation VW! The Belle Rock and Jackpot Factory's of this world will be vying for these licences as soon as they come up; it's a phenomenal opportunity.
Casino's clearly think they can get away with fuzzy ID verification, treating players as second class citizens and generally making it difficult if you (god forbid!) - win. The despicable JF situation of course as well...
Player power now has a genuine opportunity to make it's communal voice well and truly heard.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Just jumping in here real quick.
I'll be looking into this (deeply) upon my return next week since I am on the road at the moment. Thanks for keeping things mellow
Cheers!
I'll be looking into this (deeply) upon my return next week since I am on the road at the moment. Thanks for keeping things mellow
Cheers!
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
I'm pleased to report that they have today tried to make contact with my solicitor, unfortunately my solicitor was in a meeting and could not take the call.
They said they will try her again later this afternoon and my solicitor has promised me she will take the call no matter what.
Fingers crossed, we *may* be getting somewhere.
They said they will try her again later this afternoon and my solicitor has promised me she will take the call no matter what.
Fingers crossed, we *may* be getting somewhere.
marcholmes
Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Location
- uk
They have finally made contact with my solicitor and they've told her they are happy with everything.
Hopefully I can finally get paid!
Hopefully I can finally get paid!
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Location
- europe
marcholmes said:
that is good news
and well done for sticking in there, how many other people have they done this to, who've just walked away?did they tell your solicitor what it was they they were 'unhappy' with in the first place?
Let us know when the money hits the bank
and will you be playing at bellerock again 
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
marcholmes said:
I'd like to know why this entire circus was even necessary. A casino contacting a solicitor (lawyer) before paying out?? I want to know what set the casino financial department off on a witch hunt.
I dont think I'm the only player that's beginning to get paranoid about playing online....
Good luck and let us know when you get paid, marcholmes!
thechap
Banned User - multiple forum accounts - violation
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Location
- sunny croxdale
SO what's going on Belle Rock??
I would definately like a statemnt from Belle Rock on their cashout proceedures. I just dont feel confident enough to play there still. There is no way I'm prepared to get documents certified at that cost every 3 months.
Well done to the OP for sticking to his guns and forcing bellerock to eventually give the documents the go-ahead, but this raises the question of what the hell Belle Rock were playing at? They've asked for docs and recieved perfectly good docs. They've made up some flaw in the docs (and more worryingly managed to get ecogra to side with this). Then they've made the OP go through the expensive proceedure of getting them verified, denounced the verification, and then lied about contacting the solicitor.
I dont think we can let them off here, answers are still needed!
I would definately like a statemnt from Belle Rock on their cashout proceedures. I just dont feel confident enough to play there still. There is no way I'm prepared to get documents certified at that cost every 3 months.
Well done to the OP for sticking to his guns and forcing bellerock to eventually give the documents the go-ahead, but this raises the question of what the hell Belle Rock were playing at? They've asked for docs and recieved perfectly good docs. They've made up some flaw in the docs (and more worryingly managed to get ecogra to side with this). Then they've made the OP go through the expensive proceedure of getting them verified, denounced the verification, and then lied about contacting the solicitor.
I dont think we can let them off here, answers are still needed!
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
- Location
- Des Moines
Heh, I was terrifed after reading this thread. Was playing at The Gaming Club and had a decent amount built up after clearing that insane bonus. Cashed out on Sunday and figured it was lost. Showed up in my Firpay on Tuesday. The never asked me for any ID.
Not posting this to 'rub it in' or anything boys. Just wondering why they would make so many of you go through so many hoops, but others just get paid no problem.
Not posting this to 'rub it in' or anything boys. Just wondering why they would make so many of you go through so many hoops, but others just get paid no problem.
- Status
