bellerock being akward over ID - locked accs and no payouts.

[spearmaster]

shmoo -

Can you kindly elaborate on what happened? Obviously if you met the playthrough on slots, you shouldn't have fallen foul of those terms - the only other thing is that perhaps you, or someone using your computer, had previously registered an account with the casino and claimed the bonus? Either that or somewhere along the way you played an excluded game?

 

[shmoo]

Played 100% on slots and definitly 1st time i played at the casino! If it was something as simple as that then why wouldnt they just tell me!

 

[spearmaster]

Played 100% on slots and definitly 1st time i played at the casino! If it was something as simple as that then why wouldnt they just tell me!

Are you playing from a home computer? Have you played at any of the other Belle Rock casinos before?

 

[shmoo]

Yes home computer and no one else uses it and yes i have played at other bellerock casinos previously!

 

[spearmaster]

Yes home computer and no one else uses it and yes i have played at other bellerock casinos previously!

Excuse me for all the questions - just trying to establish what might possibly have gone wrong.

Did you meet all the terms and conditions at all the other Belle Rock casinos you played at?

 

[shmoo]

Its fine!

Yes met all the requirements at this and the other bellerocks, have played at other bellerocks numerous times with no problem, well ive had cashouts mysteriously appearing back in my account but then hasnt everybody! But aside from that never a problem!

The thing thats annoying me is the not knowing, if they just told me what is wrong with my documents then it could all be put to bed!

 

[spearmaster]

pm me with the details and I'll see what I can find out.

 

[Let_It_Ride]

Right now i'm getting angry!

I too share your frustration, even though I got paid in the end, I'm still pissed at the work I had to put into getting the payment and as yet have had no reasonable explainations to my questions.

I've sent another email to the carmen media pressoffice pointing them towards this thread and also asked them to bring it to the attention of their chairman and CEO. The action they take from here will determine if this is a good company or not!

 

[furby]

I'd be interested to know if anyone has had their documents certified and sent to Belle Rock, and did they get paid then?

 

[jetset]

I too share your frustration, even though I got paid in the end, I'm still pissed at the work I had to put into getting the payment and as yet have had no reasonable explainations to my questions.

I've sent another email to the carmen media pressoffice pointing them towards this thread and also asked them to bring it to the attention of their chairman and CEO. The action they take from here will determine if this is a good company or not!

Let_it_Ride I suggest you forward your personal details to Spearmaster as well so that he can investigate this along with Shoo's problem, because I'm sure we would all like to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

Furby - that is a very good question imo.

 

[mikepipe]

I'd be interested to know if anyone has had their documents certified and sent to Belle Rock, and did they get paid then?

They did not ask for certified docs, but for the normal (?) ID-documents, utility bill, drivers license and so on. After that i was paid without hesitation and several times. No problems at all.

Stupid idea (but that cant be the case at all affected accounts): Did you mix up your birthday mm and dd? (I did once and had some trouble, not at Bellerock though).

 

[marcholmes]

They did not ask for certified docs, but for the normal (?) ID-documents, utility bill, drivers license and so on. After that i was paid without hesitation and several times. No problems at all.

Stupid idea (but that cant be the case at all affected accounts): Did you mix up your birthday mm and dd? (I did once and had some trouble, not at Bellerock though).

No idea cos they won't tell us exactly what the problem is! It could be something as simple as that, it probably is and that's why they won't say anything.

 

[Darem1]

Thanks for the warning

I was about to open an account with one of the Bellerock casinos. Not any more. When and if I hit the cashout, I expect to be paid through Neteller in a reasonable amount of time. Thanks for the warning!

 

[retlaw]

River Belle

I made a deposit yesterday of $50 to get the $ 200 sign up bonus.
It is now 29 hours later and still not received the bonus.
No reaction on e-mail and nobody on the Live Help.

After reading all this I can only hope NOT to meet the wagering requirements
(if I ever receive the bonus of course)

 

[thechap]

This whole episode is a disgrace in my opinion. I think providing ID documents is a necessary evil, but then to reject them with no valid reason - and then to delibrately avoid answering the customers questions is beyond rogue IMHO.

If you compare this to Jackpot factory who were rogued for writing unethical stories, I'd much rather deal with the rogued casino group than Belle Rock on this evidence.

The cost of and time needed getting documents certified are not negligible. I wonder if belle rock would be prepared to refund the customer the fees for this should it be proved that Belle Rock infact are hassling a genuine customer with correct ID.

 

[furby]

An ID card is a form of certification. Having a certificate certified is superfluous, and then scanning or faxing it makes the second certification useless anyway.

If Belle Rock have any problems with the documents they can ask for them to be resubmitted or better quality copies to be sent. I sent them a photocopied ID card that has been good enough for neteller and other online casinos. If they want better quality I could send a high resolution colour scan. If they're still not happy they can contact the issuing authority for the ID card at their own expense to verify that it's legitimate, instead of involving the player in the time and expense of going to and paying a solicitor.

They can even contact the phone company to make sure the household bill is genuine if they want. Getting the player to do the verification lets Belle Rock continue to set up new hoops for the player to jump through in the future - ie they could claim that the solicitor's certification is a forgery and demand that the solicitor sends proof of membership of the local law society, etc etc ad infinitum.

This really looks like a payment avoidance scam that could be dragged out forever, because at each stage the player has to do something and then convince the casino of their genuineness. Once the player has sent good quality documents they have done enough, and if Belle Rock want to do any further checks they can start phoning the authorities who issued the documents, or pay the player.

 

[vinylweatherman]

More worried now

Having read through again, I see that this has not just affected new players, but players that have been playing with them for a while, and cashing out with no problems; and SUDDENLY, they have a "problem with the documents". Surely they do or don't, documents that are OK do not suddenly have "discrepancies". The fact that they are conducting this in secrecy allows them to cover up any mistake, AND also leaves a black mark on the character of the player.
Although the winnings are not enfoceable, taking them to the small claims court for consequential damages, where the player can present all the documents as sent to BelleRock, along with the assertion by BelleRock that there is something wrong with the documents (which they have stated in writing). Depending on requirements, the Judge can order the release of the "documented procedure" to the court that is mentioned in eGap. If BelleRock and eCogra are found to be at fault (unable to justify their action), the consequences could be serious for them, if the player is at fault, and is attempting to "pull a stunt" with the casino, this will then strengthen the integrity of eCogra as a mediator, and the player (be warned) will be liable for costs.
Such cases rest on the balance of probabilities, not the high standards of a criminal case. If it is more probable that the player is not at fault, they will obtain judgement in their favour.
Many firms will offer a "no win no fee" basis, and may be able to help (they take a percentage of the payout if you win).

 

[marcholmes]

This group are, IMO, a f**king disgrace.

Yesterday I got my documents certified by a solicitor (lawyer) in the UK.
This morning I PM the rep on here for the email address and got this response.

Hi **********,

Please send the docs to info@********.com. I will send them on to the Risk & Fraud department for verification. Please note that we may need to contact your solicitor in order to confirm this as we beleive that the original documents supplied are not genuine.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

So cool, I send my CERTIFIED documents in.

I've just rec'd this

This e-mail is a follow-up on your accounts lockout. Kindly be advised that our Operations Department reviewed your documentation and they concluded their investigation.

They have decided not to unlock your accounts and you will unfortunately not be allowed to play within the Belle Rock Gaming Group again. They have also advised that it's not necessary to forward any more documentation through to us as the decision is final and documentation is no longer required.

I'm at a bloody loss as to what the f**k is going on.
I've done all they've asked and they still will not pay me my winnings. I've so far just had X1 deposit returned and promised one other back, no mention of the other two deposits.

This lot are acting like CROOKS.

--edit---
Just spoken to my solicitor, this is the first time she has known an organisation reject certified documents, it's always been good enough for banks and building societies.

So it looks like they are saying I've faked the docs? Are they also saying my solicitor was involved in this? If so she'll be very interested in what the allegations are.

Still awaiting a further response from bellerock as to what the problem is cos from their last two sets of communication it looks like they are allegeding I've faked my identity!

 

[furby]

I have just received this from the Belle Rock rep here:

We have reason to believe that your documents have been tampered with, and that is why we have requested a certified copy. Receipt of certified documents enables us to complete the verification process again, and if necessary to contact the notary, it does not mean immediate resolution.

So this answers the question about what happens if you send certified copies "it does not mean immediate resolution". As suspected, sending certified documents is not the end of the matter. In fact a new condition has already been added I should now tell my solicitor to prepare for a phone call from an online casino. This also means I now have to find a bilingual solicitor.

I would prefer that my solicitor does not know about my online gambling habit. In some countries gambling is very much frowned upon. There is a solicitor in my village, but he is a personal friend who doesn't know I gamble. He knows a lot of my other friends. In effect Belle Rock are saying that if I continue to claim my winnings they will inform my solicitor about my gambling.

Belle Rock do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that my documents have been tampered with. They most certainly have not been. Neteller and all other casinos have accepted the exact same documents. I can do a clear colour scan if they want. They can contact the issuing authority of the documents if they are not satisfied.

I know that Belle Rock have a clause in their T&Cs that they can demand any documents they like, but does that mean they can demand my mother's birth certificate and my medical records etc etc? Would Ecogra support them in that case as well? These "we can do what we want" clauses can be declared invalid, or you can define what is reasonable or unreasonable. Ecogra could tell them not to be so silly. It has already been pointed out many times on this thread that a certified copy, once scanned or faxed, is useless, it just becomes a copy of a document that could have been tampered with again.

If Belle Rock suspect a player of tampering with documents, and then ask the same player to get them certified, they are likely to doubt the certification anyway, and accuse the player of forging that.

Belle Rock have also now confirmed that sending certified copies does not mean immediate resolution anyway, reserving the right to pull another stunt once any player tries to jump through these ridiculous hoops for them. Or just send them a "Marcholmes email". Sure I'll go see a solicitor.

This is a scam to make it difficult / impossible for players to withdraw their winnings. Stay away from Belle Rock. Rogue them.

 

[marcholmes]

I'd just like to add that they never even bothered to call my solicitor either.

 

[Vesuvio]

Mind-boggling stuff.

We've had some depressing new lows in the on-line casino industry recently - but an MG group that thinks it's fine to lie, invent spurious hoops for players to jump through and then pocket player funds without so much as an explanation (except for hints that are demonstrably untrue) - it really can't get much lower than that.

When do we start supporting H.R. 4777 to at least protect some people from these shysters?

 

[chivers]

Hi All,

First post and all that.

I read this thread with great interest as i was locked out of a belle rock account about 2 months ago. I had a small win but nothing too exciting.

They asked for documents (not certifed) which i promptly sent and was emailed back a couple of weeks later saying the usual - discrepencies etc.

They returned my deposit to neteller. I emailed back complaining but haven't heard from them since.

I know of 3 friends of mine who also use belle rock on a regular basis and they have all had the same experience recently. Absolutely nothing can be done about it - certified docs don't seem to make any difference either. From all reports, eCogra are pretty useless too.

Something needs to be done about this company.

LC

 

[MarcyW]

Asking for ID when you cashout is plain wrong! If they are really concerned with security, blah blah blah then they'd ask for ID upfront when you deposit money. They could care less where the money comes from then. It's just if you win and they have to give money out that they make you jump through hoops. If fraud is a concern then ID should be asked for before they accept your deposit!

 

[Vesuvio]

Asking for ID when you cashout is plain wrong! If they are really concerned with security, blah blah blah then they'd ask for ID upfront when you deposit money. They could care less where the money comes from then.

You're basically right. The Bellerock terms about notified ID come under the section: "In order to assist in the prevention of money laundering". Yep, that tried and tested method of laundering money - deposit with money from your own Neteller account, play at a casino, and withdraw to the same Neteller account

That said, there are some genuine reasons to ask for ID e.g. what's to stop me playing as Mickey Mouse? They wouldn't care if I lost or if there weren't any bonuses, but as it is they do need some checks (not that sending scans is a normal way of checking ID for most on-line companies).

Any casino that asked for ID up front would lose out to those that didn't - not to mention that most players never cash out, so from the casino's point of view why waste the time and money checking first.

The real issue here is that Bellerock are transparently using ID checks as a BS excuse to delay and avoid paying players. They're then pocketing player funds without so much as an explanation (odd even for a rogue casino). I'm not sure what can be done if eCOGRA are ignoring this, but I notice Bellerock casinos are still advertised and accredited at Casinomeister, so perhaps when Bryan gets back we can get some action on this. Talking of which, how can anyone possibly be spending time on the beach when the World Cup's taking place in their country of residence?

 

[spearmaster]

Talking of which, how can anyone possibly be spending time on the beach when the World Cup's taking place in their country of residence?

He's probably the only guy in Germany who couldn't give a hoot about the World Cup... Over here, we're going to have about a month's worth of employees reporting late for work...